HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
There's a Discord for the Etrian Odyssey series (it's not officially operated by Atlus or anything), and a few days ago they've declared that everything up to the end of the 8th labyrinth is "open" now when it comes to spoilers. They've been doing a slow roll-out declaring x amount of game content open for discussion without the need for spoiler tagging, and I really like that pacing.
I felt that boss was kind of a pushover - the HP didn't seem terribly high? Or maybe it's just the part where it kept trying to do things my gunner had sealed with binds (all three bind shots 1 point from max atm, don't want to go further without better TP efficiency). I've let Assault Drive languish at only rank 3, and Natural Edge does like... 20% less for a fraction of the TP cost, no cooldown, no penalties, and lets me use Blood/Impulse edge the next turn if I need to refill HP or TP (I should rank Blood Edge more, once I get the prereqs for Charge Edge filled in).
Negotiation being maxed out is helpful, as any debuffs on my party quickly turn into big shots of TP in the arm. Atonement at 7/8 clears statuses somewhat reliably, though the actual healing output leaves something to be desired. I'll need to look into WIS accessories at some point maybe...
Penetrator can trigger on force breaks, which is awesome.
Level 36 after handing in the mission.
Sovereign is just OP, honestly. Starting a boss with Victory Vow > Guard Order paired with Stifling Miasma and oops, there goes all their damage for a while. And then I can follow with Attack Order and either Protect Order or an Arms skill on my front line for more damage while I figure out what I need to hit (also, analysis scope is helpful turn 1 to get some idea where my Gunner should aim).
This party doesn't have a ton of damage burst without using force breaks, but it's just getting better and better at grinding an enemy down safely. Wondering if my gunner should sub Arcanist instead of Nightseeker somewhat for TP recovery options (ailment circles and then either bind shots or circle proc/expire could restore %TP, and gunner has a lot of TP to begin with so)
I find it interesting that your party's level was 35 when completing the 5th Labyrinth boss, two levels less than my party's, but the calendar date is so much further along than my guild's journey. For reference, I'm at the start of the 8th Labyrinth and the date is Taurus 5, more than a month earlier than yours. Then again, I do have the habit of always selecting the soonest rest time when staying at the Inn, even if it only gives the party a couple hour's rest. This is partially because I don't want to constantly distract myself with farming trips every time I enter a labyrinth. It's also partially because I want to challenge myself with regards to how few in-game days it would take to complete the game... even though I'm not really comparing my time to anyone else.
Anyways, I guess I should post some scattered thoughts up to my current point?
6th Labyrinth (Petal Bridge) and 5th Maze (Blossom Bridge)
Although Petal Bridge is one of my favorite stratums from the series, I don't really have much to say about its implementation in EO Nexus. On the other hand, the Maze version was pretty tricky with the complexity of the moving platform puzzles on display. I still need to go back and think about how to get to the last treasure in the right-center island, though... and I'll definitely be back since the Blossom Bridge boss is a little bit beyond my capabilities at this point. Come to think of it, I still haven't filled in the upper-left corner of Petal Bridge's B3F, and it doesn't seem like there's a revisiting theme present... I might need to check back and see if there's some kind of platform puzzle I missed. (EDIT: I found the shortcut into the area, along with another tough puzzle.)
7th Labyrinth (Ancient Forest)
Having two EO 2 labyrinths right after one another was kind of puzzling at first, but that concern was quickly displaced by how interesting the first floor gimmick was. Having to figure out how to distract the Bloodhound Bats long enough to run through each area was unique, and the easiness of the encounters helped to facilitate the gimmick. It was a little bit disappointing in hindsight after completing the first floor then returning to challenge them, since they're extremely weak FOEs. But I guess it made sense, considering how Chimaera made use of the Bats' presences as potential combat reinforcements. At a party level of 47, I think I'm still probably a level or two higher than I needed to be, but that amount of leeway feels fine.
Game Flow Speculation
I kind of expected that rescuing the Seafarer Princess would be the event trigger for subclassing, but I'm guessing that's coming after the next Labyrinth now. I'm gonna guess that there'll be thirteen labyrinths in total for the story: two from each of the first four core EO games, four cardinal direction shrines, and then one final climb up the Lemurian Yggdrasil. Seems to make sense from a balance perspective, and from the general geography of the islands. This is absolutely a long-haul game.
My party had something of a slow start (like a whole month by the time I cleared L2) and my Survivalist and Gunner are pretty constrained on their TP - negotiate helps a little, but I usually need multiple days per floor.
Also, I had many abortive trips working out how to avoid FOEs in L5.
After replacing my arcanist with a nightseeker my party works sooo much better. No access to binds, but having another damagedealer helps immensely. And the fifth labyrinth has some pretty nice FOE puzzles, even if some of the enemy formations on B3F are real dangerous for how early in the game it is.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I read something interesting (and closed it and lost it so fuck me). Supposedly, in EO4 a character's TEC stat will help dictate how long ailments & binds they inflict last. Which if true I wonder if that's how it was in the previous games - it would certainly get me to change my mind about some possible subclass options in EO3.
They split the stat in two for EO5 and EON. No idea if Int or Wis affected those affliction durations.
In some of the games, TEC influenced initial affliction-chance, but duration is rolled each turn after the first, I think influenced by the sufferer's LUC in at least one game.
Antibodies is an interesting skill, because it rolls every turn, even though recovery otherwise doesn't start checking until a turn has passed. No matter how lucky a non-Medic is, it can't recover that quickly.
Game plays dirty. I died. Been a while since that happened...
Had 25% to go or so, but was out of items and no healing of the right type. I need to burn through that HP faster... I'm only at level 40 though, I should be able to get another level or two at least before another attempt... but really I need another ten SP to really kit out against what's going on there.
Atonement and Medic Bullet had me covered on the ailments, but then it started throwing out binds. It messed up the turn I had lined up Assault Drive after Charge Edge with Miasma Tsunami completely... that would have lopped SO much HP off, stuff like that.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Now that some of you have spent more time on the game, I'm gonna raise my criticism / question again. Nexus has made a big shift away from the previous games by giving all enemies more HP for their given part of the game than usual (not super drastic for normal encounters but noticeable), and bosses & FOEs in particularly seem to have gained a massive multiplier to their HP by comparison.
Can we agree on that being the case now? I'm not asking anyone to agree with my takeaway of it (it changes how those battles play out pretty substantially, but not in any meaningful or interesting way). Some people were denying that the game made any changes to enemy HP rates, but I was playing EO5 and EO2U prior to Nexus coming out, and just spent the past week on EO4, and it's sticking out like a sore thumb.
Do you mean this in a relative sense, rather than an absolute sense? EO Nexus is a pretty strange beast compared to previous entries due to its structure. For one, Nexus and EO V changed the way stats worked, with six non-HP and TP stats that scaled up to 255; previous games had five stats, each with a max of 99. In addition, the extreme length of the game and slow progression in both levels and equipment numbers means that the progression of enemy stats and abilities is also very different from previous games. I was gonna open up the previous games to compare stat values, before realizing that it would probably be a lot of work for not much benefit. So I guess I'll be sticking with anecdote and feel for this post.
For my own opinion, I've been mostly fine with the balancing of the game so far. (I'm currently getting beat up on the final floor of the 8th Labyrinth, which I'm finding as a major contrast to how much of a breather in difficulty the 7th labyrinth was.) Normal battles haven't been bad. For my party, random battles will take a few turns, amounting to one cycle of setup (buffs, binds, charging) with a little bit of cleanup. I can get a good amount of progress with each trip into the labyrinth. Bosses feel pretty spot-on to me, generally taking all of my TP resources and some consumables to clear. FOEs probably take more resources to take down than I'd like, at least on initial encounters. I'll clear out labyrinth floors without encountering FOEs first, then take down one of each type once I reach the labyrinth boss. (With my pace, FOE auras tend to turn from yellow to blue a floor or two after they appear.) I'll usually need a majority of my TP resources to take down FOEs in this pattern, so I normally dedicate single trips for individual FOEs when I feel ready for them.
I'm generally fine with all of this, but I can definitely see how FOE and boss toughness in Nexus could be annoying for some folks. If you know about the enemy's abilities and patterns and already have an idea of how to execute your party's gameplan, then too-high of an enemy HP can make the battle feel like a chore. This is something that pops up in plenty of other genres, like the action, platformer, and shooter games. The need to execute commands for far longer than what is necessary to demonstrate competence can be tedious if not balanced properly. What this threshold is will be different for each person: for me, where a boss battle might be between about a dozen to twenty turns, the balance feels about right.
One mechanism that's worth discussing in conjunction with this is that of resource management. For a game like Etrian Odyssey, where items are fairly limited in quantity (and often in effectiveness), there can be a bit of tension in whether or not you have just enough resources to finish off a boss. As I noted above, I've usually found myself feeling like I've barely scraped by at the end of a boss encounter. It's quite possible that boss battles in Nexus were tuned to make sure that every last drop of a party's composition is drained in order to be completed at a certain par level range. This feels somewhat plausible, considering how I've felt the experience and leveling curve to be.
Yeah, I feel like FOEs are maybe too demanding to kill, in terms of durability. The regular encounters are about right, though L6 has some asshole comps that don't have clear priorities and multiple bulkier enemies. Bosses... about right, I think. The one I'm currently on is a dick though, and would be a thousand times easier if I just brought a medic due to when different classes get relevant answers. I think bosses might be overstaying their welcome just a tad, but I know my comp is somewhat suboptimal in being able to put out burst and such (I put it together before I knew how late subclassing was and then rolled with it anyways).
Speaking of subclassing. For my Harbinger, War Magus or Medic? War Magus gives me more offense (phys up, and their unbind/refresh does both at once while trying to inflict, and since Harbinger has good luck iirc?), medic has less SP needed to get to what I want and also has that nice drop rate bonus. Also the passive chance to rez folks is nice even at half ranks if I grab that later. But definitely less attractive passives.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
edited March 2019
I mean in the sense like... let's say in past EO games a boss can take 8 to 14 turns to kill. In EON it takes 30+ at minimum (I've gone as high as 36). And during all that, the boss' damage output is similar to past games (can two-shot the people in your party).
The balance is so freaking different and yes I know they changed the stats in EO5, but even then the incremental gains mattered more visibly. In EON, they kick back so little that it's imperceptible.
I feel like I'm playing Star Wars TOR, where it's a 'big achievement' to get a talent that gives a +5% damage bonus under specific conditions. 5% of a 100 damage hit is 105, and that is not a meaningful break point in a single player game. Edit - Particularly when you're fighting a boss that has HP in the tens of thousands. This is not an MMORPG, but it's balanced as if it were - and there's no other players.
Individual level, skill, and equipment gains might not seem big, but they still add up like in any other EO game. Go back one labyrinth from one you've just cleared, and the boosts from those improvements are easily evident. What really matters is whether or not the enemy scaling is in line with how quickly your party's, and here's where EO Nexus might run into issues. In the other mainline games, you might complete the standard content (5th stratum) around level 60. In Nexus, based on how I've predicted the structure of the rest of the game, getting to level 60 might still have about a quarter of the game left. (I might be wrong with my predictions since I'm still working through the 8th Labyrinth.) Normally, you might cap a few core active skills at that time, so in Nexus, you'll be seeing a lot more regular game time to cover non-core and more passive skills. This could be an issue if the improvements on core skills start to diminish, but enemy improvement rates don't.
Of course, I haven't hit that point yet. As mentioned in my previous post, my boss battles tend end in the teens for turn count. (Successful boss battles, anyways - it's possible that some of my failed attempts went on longer than that.) So I haven't had any 30+ turn hells to report on in Nexus. I also can't say my memory of previous EO games is clear enough to recall how long my boss encounters took there - I play EO games at launch but don't tend to revisit them afterwards. Maybe I'll encounter more slogs later on in the game, so perhaps I'll keep an eye on that turn counter for future battles. Our differing experiences might be due to differences in party composition. Does your Protector deal out damage regularly in encounters? My Hero still throws out some damage each turn despite being in a defensive build, and her chip healing alongside my War Magus's small Artery regen is pretty good at keeping my party healthy. This gives my Gunner + Zodiac backline plenty of time to set up their damage bursts, but I don't know how much it compares to what your Landsknect + Survivalist combination does.
I haven't found hp bloat to be a thing up to lab 6 at least. EO2u has the worst HP bloat in the series, and I find nexus to be much more reasonable.
You might be running a low damage party? The lab 5 boss was a slog for me since it had no elemental weakness, and my zodiac doesn't have meteor yet. But it still died on turn 15 or 16.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I just ate a harsh reminder of the one thing I hated about EO4's 6th stratum. Those fucking plants that hit your entire party with stone status, and it has like a 99% success rate. Everything else I can deal with, but THAT is such bullshit. It's pretty much RNG "lol bye bye progress" if you so much as encounter them, because running away from battle isn't guaranteed.
I just ate a harsh reminder of the one thing I hated about EO4's 6th stratum. Those fucking plants that hit your entire party with stone status, and it has like a 99% success rate. Everything else I can deal with, but THAT is such bullshit. It's pretty much RNG "lol bye bye progress" if you so much as encounter them, because running away from battle isn't guaranteed.
Yeah. That's where I dropped IV. Couldn't be bothered with them.
In this one... I think you can deal with them using Survivalist and nuking quickly (either priority skill or force boost), or... well, Sovereign and Harbinger can block ailments, but Sov may be too slow and only hits one row if you don't use force. Or accessories might be enough.
I actually went through EO4 twice with different parties, but only one of the parties actually cleared the postgame. The main reason for this was that with EO4 arcanist/imperial/nightseeker I was assured that the petrify spamming plants were either dead or bound before they got to act. The other party was linkfocused and lacked aoe options, there was just no way to deal with the later encounter formations involving multiple flowers even if I could melt bosses and FOEs.
Henroid did mention playing through EO4 for the past week, so I assume that it's EO4's postgame stratum that is the subject of discussion here. In EO4, Muskoids and Petaloids would use their status infliction skill on single targets if they were at full health, and party-wide otherwise. So the strategy for taking them down in EO4 should suggest focus-firing on them only when you're ready to take them down. Still, Petaloids and Muskoids are two monsters that EO players will cite as the most dreaded to face. I'd wager that Muskoids'll show up somewhere in EON from their notoriety.
Speaking of subclassing. For my Harbinger, War Magus or Medic? War Magus gives me more offense (phys up, and their unbind/refresh does both at once while trying to inflict, and since Harbinger has good luck iirc?), medic has less SP needed to get to what I want and also has that nice drop rate bonus. Also the passive chance to rez folks is nice even at half ranks if I grab that later. But definitely less attractive passives.
Harbingers have above-average LUC, but still on the low end compared to other classes that specialize in bind and ailment infliction. War Magus's Displace has a pretty low infliction rate, so you probably shouldn't rely on that aspect of the skill too much, just its Unbind+Refresh effect. That said, War Magus also has a lot of other good stuff to help a Harbinger in a support w/ secondary offense role. Random Disease has a good infliction rate at the cost of not being able to choose the afflicting ailment, and the Vampire-Rouse-Mind Drain line seems to fit in with your party's philosophy of getting lots of small, steady heals.
Henroid did mention playing through EO4 for the past week, so I assume that it's EO4's postgame stratum that is the subject of discussion here. In EO4, Muskoids and Petaloids would use their status infliction skill on single targets if they were at full health, and party-wide otherwise. So the strategy for taking them down in EO4 should suggest focus-firing on them only when you're ready to take them down. Still, Petaloids and Muskoids are two monsters that EO players will cite as the most dreaded to face. I'd wager that Muskoids'll show up somewhere in EON from their notoriety.
Speaking of subclassing. For my Harbinger, War Magus or Medic? War Magus gives me more offense (phys up, and their unbind/refresh does both at once while trying to inflict, and since Harbinger has good luck iirc?), medic has less SP needed to get to what I want and also has that nice drop rate bonus. Also the passive chance to rez folks is nice even at half ranks if I grab that later. But definitely less attractive passives.
Harbingers have above-average LUC, but still on the low end compared to other classes that specialize in bind and ailment infliction. War Magus's Displace has a pretty low infliction rate, so you probably shouldn't rely on that aspect of the skill too much, just its Unbind+Refresh effect. That said, War Magus also has a lot of other good stuff to help a Harbinger in a support w/ secondary offense role. Random Disease has a good infliction rate at the cost of not being able to choose the afflicting ailment, and the Vampire-Rouse-Mind Drain line seems to fit in with your party's philosophy of getting lots of small, steady heals.
I don't know that the vampire line has a ton to offer me... at least not immediately (I haven't really invested in any ailments). Just the 9% phys up makes me lean WM anyways though, since it helps the output. I'd want to see how silly Imperial/Hero healing is too.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Done with EO4 so I'm jumping back over to EO1U. Not doing story mode though, went into classic to try something new line-up wise; Protector, Dark Hunter, and Medic are all the same for me. But this time I'm running a Troubadour and Hexer with them (instead of Landshark and Alchemist). From what I see later in the Troubadour's skill lineup, I might be able to swap the Medic out later in the game, in which case I'll go with a Survivalist.
Only time I used a Troubadour was during my very brief attempt to Lets Play EO2 years ago, and that party composition was voted on by people here. Who clearly wanted to fuck with me.
Hah. All I needed to utterly crush that fight was getting one level (had a quest left for the floor) and upgrading my gear. Going in knowing what it did let me bring some relevant items and now I'm on L7.
I've been playing a lot more of Nexus over the past few days, and as of the in-game date of Tiger 1, Adamant Guild has just completed the 9th Labyrinth. As usual, I've got a smattering of thoughts and experiences from the previous update post to now.
8th Labyrinth (Undersea Grotto)
After the mostly 'breather dungeon' difficulty of the 7th Labyrinth, the 8th Labyrinth was a fair ratchet up in difficulty. Curse is such a horrible status effect when it appears, since it comes with enemies with high HPs and lots of weaknesses to hit. I was a bit surprised to unlock subclasses before the end of the Labyrinth (I kind of expected that to be the completion reward), and almost as surprised to see how just having those additional skill points really made the rest of the dungeon feel easier. (See the last spoilered section for specific notes on my party's subclassing choices.) I didn't really have any trouble with the final boss, taking Ketos down at party level 53 in 21 turns. Even though the battle was pretty long, it didn't feel that way since my party was in pretty good control for the most part.
6th Maze (Buried Castle)
The Cocky Capacitors were really frightening to see, especially with my association with them as a 6th stratum normal enemy in EO 4. And indeed, in their fused form, they are a beast to not be trifled with. When I tried taking on a fused-form Cocky Capacitor in the last puzzle room, I got it down to its split apart phase but didn't have enough damage output to prevent it from re-fusing. So I still haven't gotten the fused form logged in my codex. Neither have I registered the maze boss into the codex: when I tried taking it on after getting to the last floor of the 9th Labyrinth, I still got torn apart by its party-wide attacks. I guess I'll need to revisit this location later for that kill. But in the meantime, it's a great place for farming rare gather point materials for cash, especially with Oliver and Marco helping out.
9th Labyrinth (Western Shrine)
Once more, a full five-floor dungeon to end an island, backed by the full power of subclassing. I actually don't have much to say about this one, it just seemed to build up on mechanics to use with the multi-level tracks introduced in the Southern Shrine. In a way, this was somewhat disappointing since I was expecting something a more unique. I'd bet that the inevitable Northern Shrine will share the same musics and environmental design, but hopefully there'll be some additional twists to observe in the labyrinth mechanics. As for the boss of the Labyrinth, it wasn't much trouble at all. I ended up completing the boss at level 62 after finishing all of the quests, but definitely could have finished it at level 61. The first time I wandered into the boss room, I accidentally moved one step too far north and activated the event scene and battle, despite my party being at less than half TP reserves. I got the boss a good ways down before running out of resources, but needed that second try to actually complete the deed. I ended up winning in 16 turns, probably a couple fewer than I would have needed in a blind attempt.
Subclassing and Party Progress
Hero + Landsknecht: Since my Hero is a shield-based party defender, it made sense to consider the Protector and Landsknecht classes for her shield-based attack skills. Protector has good passives for increasing HP and defenses, but I wasn't particularly interested in using the Hero for drawing attacks. So instead, I went with Landsknecht. Since I didn't have any main debuffers in my party, the Landsknecht's Break skills had better utility. I've been using them when an afterimage is out, so that my defenses could be maintained while applying those extra effects. Or perhaps sometimes just opening with a Break and hoping that an afterimage would stay out to increase its duration. It's been working out so far.
War Magus + Sovereign: Medic and Sovereign are natural draws for subclasses on my War Magus, who has been acting as my main party healer. Medic was appealing for some of their utility Novice passives and their potential for synergy in their staff-based debuffs, attacks, and mastery passive. On the other hand, the Medic's active healing skills didn't look to bring much to the table, especially at half-rank maximums. And with Hero taking Landsknecht, enemy debuffs now had coverage. So I went with Sovereign, and have been very pleased with the result. My War Magus has been opening battles with Artery for a long time now, and it's been working extremely well with Sovereign's Reinforce and Royal Lineage. In addition, since my party's not been big on ailments, my War Magus didn't have much opportunity to break out his War Edge skills. Having the Soveriegn's Order buffs available has given my War Magus a lot better things to do in FOE and boss battles than just throwing out Random Disease and ending up mostly disappointed. In fact, Sovereign's been so much of a boon to the War Magus that pretty much all of my skill points since subclassing have gone into Sovereign skills, mostly to try and beeline Prevent Order. I probably wouldn't have wanted to start the game with a Sovereign, but looking at how I'm using my War Magus now, I feel like the swapped class combination of Sovereign + War Magus would be a better fit for my party. As a healer/buffer, the Sovereign's lower STR doesn't matter, and they give up a slightly lower HP and WIS for much higher TP. Still, I'm far enough into the game that I don't feel like taking a sidestep to level up my Sovereign to fit the composition and the War Magus is working out just fine.
Pugilist + Ninja: I didn't have a good idea of where I wanted to go with Pugilist when it came to subclassing, whether to go with an ailment-dealing class like Arcanist, Harbinger, or Ninja, add utility with Farmer, or lean into the many-attacks build with Shogun. In the end, I went with Ninja. Ninja's got plenty of ailment skills that don't rely on a specific weapon, and it adds potential for evasion to aid the Pugilist's high HP but low defense. Mystic Calm's actually been a big help for the Pugilist's limited TP pool, and of course, there's the Status ATK passive to make the Pugilist much more reliable. So far, the Ninja class hasn't been adding too much to the Pugilist's build. Outside of a few basic points into Ninja passives and a token point into Ninpo: Daggers, I've just continued to put points into the main class. In order to have the Pugilist throw out so many punches reliably, its main class skills need a lot of training. So while my Pugilist is still not as useful in FOE and boss battles as I would like, he's gotten pretty reliable and has high sustainability in standard random encounters.
Gunner + Arcanist: As with my Pugilist, I didn't have a good idea of where I wanted to take my Gunner's subclass, but in the end, I went with Arcanist just to get their Status ATK Up and TP Return passives. On the other hand, outside of random battles and the start of FOE and boss battles, my Gunner's been moving away from the binding shots and into the charged shots to be a main damage dealer. Maybe I should have gone with Farmer for their broader set of passive abilities, or Imperial to shore up elemental damage. It hasn't made a difference yet since I've been taking care of the Gunner's main class skills still, but I strongly suspect it'll start making a difference towards the end of the game and definitely in the postgame.
Zodiac + Imperial: Landsknecht, for Single Devotion and some aid in physical and status defenses? Or Imperial, for Element Boost and Absorber? I went with the latter since I still had a lot of skill points that I needed to put into the Zodiac's own tree. Also, my Hero was already going to subclass as Landsknect, and variety is sometimes nice, yeah? In any case, my Zodiac is still blowing stuff up nice and fine, and I don't think that it would have mattered too much which subclass I took.
...I'm here most of the way through Lapin working on L7. I beat L6 on Lapin 7.
Also, I really do not like the sunflower enemy at all. The FOEs in L7 are already showing blue to me though... and I'm only at the end of the second floor.
HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Something I'd forgotten from Etrian Odyssey 1 Untold: they specify that there are seven Yggdrasil trees. Since Nexus canonically connects all the games prior plus provided the sixth tree, the seventh is going to be the first non-DS game in the series.
Also let's not forget the Biblical reference possible here, with seven seals and seven mouths, etc.
wait are the games other than the first two in the same setting?
EO1 and 2 were directly connected always. EO1U introduced the idea that there might be one strung-together setting, EO2U pushed that even further by hinting at Armoroad (EO3) being a region, and then EO Nexus straight up says all the towns in all the games exist. The start the game is actually a joint venture between them to explore an Yggdrasil tree that is out at sea, making it the sixth explored.
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Dr. Flamingo49 Gilded Disc Perceives the SunRegistered Userregular
Well the issue there is...
(EO3 spoilers)
The EO3 Yggdrasil is NOT from the group mentioned in EOU. It's a conveniently tree-shaped alien. From space! :P
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
The EO3 Yggdrasil is NOT from the group mentioned in EOU. It's a conveniently tree-shaped alien. From space! :P
It's not much of an issue.
MIKE and Ricky in EO1U both describe that the scientists happened upon an organism that eventually was able to become the Yggdrasil trees, but the origin of that organism is not described.
Same for goes for EO5.
A space lady describes that she and her people have planted Yggdrasil trees on planets to foster life, but this doesn't necessarily discount that she delivered it to humanity, or that humanity discovered the original tree she planted, etc.
Edit - BTW Dr Flamingo, RE: your avatar, stop chewing on the glue.
Henroid on
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
I just beat the Golem in EO1U with a level 38 party, which is the earliest I've managed to do it. Two of them were dead by the end and I had to just fight through the regen ability (I did enough damage to null out the healing it did for a while), but I did it.
L7 cleared, one-shot the boss. Helps that moves are very predictable as to which bind shuts them down.
Also that I've been finally putting more ranks into Assault Drive. Because Ignition>Drive>Drive>Conversion>Drive is a lot of damage over four turns... but I need to be nearly 100% TP to do it (won't take the last rank until my base TP finally hits 100 for that reason).
When you say "one-shot", do you mean that literally (most of their HP in a single strike), or metaphorically (a significant fraction, but not most of, their health)? I know that you've listed your Imperial's cycle around their Force Boost/Break, but I wanted to just make sure. I've seen videos and screenshots of folks in past EO games set up situations where they can pump out five digits of damage so I know that it's possible, but I don't have the patience to figure that stuff out. (I will usually play enough into the post-game to get to the final post-game boss(es), but not want to go through the grinding and optimization to be able to beat them.) But still, there is a great disparity between what my Gunner and Zodiac can push out, which seems to be in the low four digits at best. It doesn't seem like the Imperial stats and skill multipliers would be that much more than the Gunner's to carry them to an order of magnitude's higher damage output.
When you say "one-shot", do you mean that literally (most of their HP in a single strike), or metaphorically (a significant fraction, but not most of, their health)? I know that you've listed your Imperial's cycle around their Force Boost/Break, but I wanted to just make sure. I've seen videos and screenshots of folks in past EO games set up situations where they can pump out five digits of damage so I know that it's possible, but I don't have the patience to figure that stuff out. (I will usually play enough into the post-game to get to the final post-game boss(es), but not want to go through the grinding and optimization to be able to beat them.) But still, the great disparity between what my Gunner and Zodiac can push out, which seems to be in the low four digits at best. It doesn't seem like the Imperial stats and skill multipliers would be that much more than the Gunner's to carry them to an order of magnitude's higher damage output.
Oh, no. I mean I beat it first try.
And Imperial does have one thing Gunner doesn't, but they can"t use turn 1: Charge Edge. Gunner can force boost for the same effect though (or more with lucky Double Action).
I don't hit 4-digit damage yet except on Miasma Tsunami turns anyways.
Yeah, I see the confusion. I did one shot the core of EOIV's last boss with an Imperial though. Accel Drive for 10k. I don't usually build for ghat kind of damage, but god Imperials were broken in IV.
Yeah, I see the confusion. I did one shot the core of EOIV's last boss with an Imperial though. Accel Drive for 10k. I don't usually build for ghat kind of damage, but god Imperials were broken in IV.
I need to see how that's done, that sounds incredible.
Charge the turn before, buffs, use drive? I'd have to pull the game out to look, but Imperial damage was just that high. I may have the actual number wrong, it was some ridiculous amount over the max HP of the core though. It's been a while.
Oroboros 9: Unlocked subclassing, finally. God it's way too late in this game.
Party:
Imperial / Hero
Harbinger / War Magus
Survivalist / Ninja
Sovereign / Farmer
Gunner / Nightseeker
All level 50.
Oroboros 10: Cleared L8. I just felt bad for the boss, it couldn't do anything to me at all. Not because of binds or ailments... but because I can buff and debuff anything I need to all the time. Also, 1k damage Hazy Arrow is delicious with how much it missed my survivalist after adding Ninja power (it uh... seems to have shit accuracy in general, to be honest).
The subclassing didn't really matter for the boss... but it didn't hurt either. Going to be really helpful getting that extra healing every turn when exploring, and so many nice new passives for everyone. Might keep the survivalist in front more and Chain Dance/Hazy Arrow for budget nukes... this party can make really good use of swapping folks around.
Oroboros 10: Cleared L8. I just felt bad for the boss, it couldn't do anything to me at all. Not because of binds or ailments... but because I can buff and debuff anything I need to all the time. Also, 1k damage Hazy Arrow is delicious with how much it missed my survivalist after adding Ninja power (it uh... seems to have shit accuracy in general, to be honest).
Well, yeah, that's just Ketos's gimmick. Its signature damage skill has very low accuracy, and the game does a fairly good job of telegraphing this by bringing it out early in the fight. All of its other skills are built around cutting your party's evasion through debuffs, binds, and ailments, or raising its own evasion. As long as you can stay on top of those supporting states, it can't do much to you damage-wise. The Survivalist's dodge-tanking nature makes it really nice for that battle in particular.
Posts
I felt that boss was kind of a pushover - the HP didn't seem terribly high? Or maybe it's just the part where it kept trying to do things my gunner had sealed with binds (all three bind shots 1 point from max atm, don't want to go further without better TP efficiency). I've let Assault Drive languish at only rank 3, and Natural Edge does like... 20% less for a fraction of the TP cost, no cooldown, no penalties, and lets me use Blood/Impulse edge the next turn if I need to refill HP or TP (I should rank Blood Edge more, once I get the prereqs for Charge Edge filled in).
Negotiation being maxed out is helpful, as any debuffs on my party quickly turn into big shots of TP in the arm. Atonement at 7/8 clears statuses somewhat reliably, though the actual healing output leaves something to be desired. I'll need to look into WIS accessories at some point maybe...
Penetrator can trigger on force breaks, which is awesome.
Level 36 after handing in the mission.
Sovereign is just OP, honestly. Starting a boss with Victory Vow > Guard Order paired with Stifling Miasma and oops, there goes all their damage for a while. And then I can follow with Attack Order and either Protect Order or an Arms skill on my front line for more damage while I figure out what I need to hit (also, analysis scope is helpful turn 1 to get some idea where my Gunner should aim).
This party doesn't have a ton of damage burst without using force breaks, but it's just getting better and better at grinding an enemy down safely. Wondering if my gunner should sub Arcanist instead of Nightseeker somewhat for TP recovery options (ailment circles and then either bind shots or circle proc/expire could restore %TP, and gunner has a lot of TP to begin with so)
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Anyways, I guess I should post some scattered thoughts up to my current point?
7th Labyrinth (Ancient Forest)
Game Flow Speculation
Also, I had many abortive trips working out how to avoid FOEs in L5.
I did just finish L6B1 in one day though.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
They split the stat in two for EO5 and EON. No idea if Int or Wis affected those affliction durations.
Antibodies is an interesting skill, because it rolls every turn, even though recovery otherwise doesn't start checking until a turn has passed. No matter how lucky a non-Medic is, it can't recover that quickly.
Game plays dirty. I died. Been a while since that happened...
Atonement and Medic Bullet had me covered on the ailments, but then it started throwing out binds. It messed up the turn I had lined up Assault Drive after Charge Edge with Miasma Tsunami completely... that would have lopped SO much HP off, stuff like that.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Can we agree on that being the case now? I'm not asking anyone to agree with my takeaway of it (it changes how those battles play out pretty substantially, but not in any meaningful or interesting way). Some people were denying that the game made any changes to enemy HP rates, but I was playing EO5 and EO2U prior to Nexus coming out, and just spent the past week on EO4, and it's sticking out like a sore thumb.
For my own opinion, I've been mostly fine with the balancing of the game so far. (I'm currently getting beat up on the final floor of the 8th Labyrinth, which I'm finding as a major contrast to how much of a breather in difficulty the 7th labyrinth was.) Normal battles haven't been bad. For my party, random battles will take a few turns, amounting to one cycle of setup (buffs, binds, charging) with a little bit of cleanup. I can get a good amount of progress with each trip into the labyrinth. Bosses feel pretty spot-on to me, generally taking all of my TP resources and some consumables to clear. FOEs probably take more resources to take down than I'd like, at least on initial encounters. I'll clear out labyrinth floors without encountering FOEs first, then take down one of each type once I reach the labyrinth boss. (With my pace, FOE auras tend to turn from yellow to blue a floor or two after they appear.) I'll usually need a majority of my TP resources to take down FOEs in this pattern, so I normally dedicate single trips for individual FOEs when I feel ready for them.
I'm generally fine with all of this, but I can definitely see how FOE and boss toughness in Nexus could be annoying for some folks. If you know about the enemy's abilities and patterns and already have an idea of how to execute your party's gameplan, then too-high of an enemy HP can make the battle feel like a chore. This is something that pops up in plenty of other genres, like the action, platformer, and shooter games. The need to execute commands for far longer than what is necessary to demonstrate competence can be tedious if not balanced properly. What this threshold is will be different for each person: for me, where a boss battle might be between about a dozen to twenty turns, the balance feels about right.
One mechanism that's worth discussing in conjunction with this is that of resource management. For a game like Etrian Odyssey, where items are fairly limited in quantity (and often in effectiveness), there can be a bit of tension in whether or not you have just enough resources to finish off a boss. As I noted above, I've usually found myself feeling like I've barely scraped by at the end of a boss encounter. It's quite possible that boss battles in Nexus were tuned to make sure that every last drop of a party's composition is drained in order to be completed at a certain par level range. This feels somewhat plausible, considering how I've felt the experience and leveling curve to be.
Speaking of subclassing. For my Harbinger, War Magus or Medic? War Magus gives me more offense (phys up, and their unbind/refresh does both at once while trying to inflict, and since Harbinger has good luck iirc?), medic has less SP needed to get to what I want and also has that nice drop rate bonus. Also the passive chance to rez folks is nice even at half ranks if I grab that later. But definitely less attractive passives.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
The balance is so freaking different and yes I know they changed the stats in EO5, but even then the incremental gains mattered more visibly. In EON, they kick back so little that it's imperceptible.
I feel like I'm playing Star Wars TOR, where it's a 'big achievement' to get a talent that gives a +5% damage bonus under specific conditions. 5% of a 100 damage hit is 105, and that is not a meaningful break point in a single player game. Edit - Particularly when you're fighting a boss that has HP in the tens of thousands. This is not an MMORPG, but it's balanced as if it were - and there's no other players.
Of course, I haven't hit that point yet. As mentioned in my previous post, my boss battles tend end in the teens for turn count. (Successful boss battles, anyways - it's possible that some of my failed attempts went on longer than that.) So I haven't had any 30+ turn hells to report on in Nexus. I also can't say my memory of previous EO games is clear enough to recall how long my boss encounters took there - I play EO games at launch but don't tend to revisit them afterwards. Maybe I'll encounter more slogs later on in the game, so perhaps I'll keep an eye on that turn counter for future battles. Our differing experiences might be due to differences in party composition. Does your Protector deal out damage regularly in encounters? My Hero still throws out some damage each turn despite being in a defensive build, and her chip healing alongside my War Magus's small Artery regen is pretty good at keeping my party healthy. This gives my Gunner + Zodiac backline plenty of time to set up their damage bursts, but I don't know how much it compares to what your Landsknect + Survivalist combination does.
You might be running a low damage party? The lab 5 boss was a slog for me since it had no elemental weakness, and my zodiac doesn't have meteor yet. But it still died on turn 15 or 16.
Yeah. That's where I dropped IV. Couldn't be bothered with them.
In this one... I think you can deal with them using Survivalist and nuking quickly (either priority skill or force boost), or... well, Sovereign and Harbinger can block ailments, but Sov may be too slow and only hits one row if you don't use force. Or accessories might be enough.
At least it's not instant game over now?
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Harbingers have above-average LUC, but still on the low end compared to other classes that specialize in bind and ailment infliction. War Magus's Displace has a pretty low infliction rate, so you probably shouldn't rely on that aspect of the skill too much, just its Unbind+Refresh effect. That said, War Magus also has a lot of other good stuff to help a Harbinger in a support w/ secondary offense role. Random Disease has a good infliction rate at the cost of not being able to choose the afflicting ailment, and the Vampire-Rouse-Mind Drain line seems to fit in with your party's philosophy of getting lots of small, steady heals.
I don't know that the vampire line has a ton to offer me... at least not immediately (I haven't really invested in any ailments). Just the 9% phys up makes me lean WM anyways though, since it helps the output. I'd want to see how silly Imperial/Hero healing is too.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Only time I used a Troubadour was during my very brief attempt to Lets Play EO2 years ago, and that party composition was voted on by people here. Who clearly wanted to fuck with me.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
6th Maze (Buried Castle)
9th Labyrinth (Western Shrine)
Subclassing and Party Progress
War Magus + Sovereign: Medic and Sovereign are natural draws for subclasses on my War Magus, who has been acting as my main party healer. Medic was appealing for some of their utility Novice passives and their potential for synergy in their staff-based debuffs, attacks, and mastery passive. On the other hand, the Medic's active healing skills didn't look to bring much to the table, especially at half-rank maximums. And with Hero taking Landsknecht, enemy debuffs now had coverage. So I went with Sovereign, and have been very pleased with the result. My War Magus has been opening battles with Artery for a long time now, and it's been working extremely well with Sovereign's Reinforce and Royal Lineage. In addition, since my party's not been big on ailments, my War Magus didn't have much opportunity to break out his War Edge skills. Having the Soveriegn's Order buffs available has given my War Magus a lot better things to do in FOE and boss battles than just throwing out Random Disease and ending up mostly disappointed. In fact, Sovereign's been so much of a boon to the War Magus that pretty much all of my skill points since subclassing have gone into Sovereign skills, mostly to try and beeline Prevent Order. I probably wouldn't have wanted to start the game with a Sovereign, but looking at how I'm using my War Magus now, I feel like the swapped class combination of Sovereign + War Magus would be a better fit for my party. As a healer/buffer, the Sovereign's lower STR doesn't matter, and they give up a slightly lower HP and WIS for much higher TP. Still, I'm far enough into the game that I don't feel like taking a sidestep to level up my Sovereign to fit the composition and the War Magus is working out just fine.
Pugilist + Ninja: I didn't have a good idea of where I wanted to go with Pugilist when it came to subclassing, whether to go with an ailment-dealing class like Arcanist, Harbinger, or Ninja, add utility with Farmer, or lean into the many-attacks build with Shogun. In the end, I went with Ninja. Ninja's got plenty of ailment skills that don't rely on a specific weapon, and it adds potential for evasion to aid the Pugilist's high HP but low defense. Mystic Calm's actually been a big help for the Pugilist's limited TP pool, and of course, there's the Status ATK passive to make the Pugilist much more reliable. So far, the Ninja class hasn't been adding too much to the Pugilist's build. Outside of a few basic points into Ninja passives and a token point into Ninpo: Daggers, I've just continued to put points into the main class. In order to have the Pugilist throw out so many punches reliably, its main class skills need a lot of training. So while my Pugilist is still not as useful in FOE and boss battles as I would like, he's gotten pretty reliable and has high sustainability in standard random encounters.
Gunner + Arcanist: As with my Pugilist, I didn't have a good idea of where I wanted to take my Gunner's subclass, but in the end, I went with Arcanist just to get their Status ATK Up and TP Return passives. On the other hand, outside of random battles and the start of FOE and boss battles, my Gunner's been moving away from the binding shots and into the charged shots to be a main damage dealer. Maybe I should have gone with Farmer for their broader set of passive abilities, or Imperial to shore up elemental damage. It hasn't made a difference yet since I've been taking care of the Gunner's main class skills still, but I strongly suspect it'll start making a difference towards the end of the game and definitely in the postgame.
Zodiac + Imperial: Landsknecht, for Single Devotion and some aid in physical and status defenses? Or Imperial, for Element Boost and Absorber? I went with the latter since I still had a lot of skill points that I needed to put into the Zodiac's own tree. Also, my Hero was already going to subclass as Landsknect, and variety is sometimes nice, yeah? In any case, my Zodiac is still blowing stuff up nice and fine, and I don't think that it would have mattered too much which subclass I took.
...I'm here most of the way through Lapin working on L7. I beat L6 on Lapin 7.
Also, I really do not like the sunflower enemy at all. The FOEs in L7 are already showing blue to me though... and I'm only at the end of the second floor.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Also let's not forget the Biblical reference possible here, with seven seals and seven mouths, etc.
(EO3 spoilers)
Same for goes for EO5.
Edit - BTW Dr Flamingo, RE: your avatar, stop chewing on the glue.
I'm proud of myself.
Also that I've been finally putting more ranks into Assault Drive. Because Ignition>Drive>Drive>Conversion>Drive is a lot of damage over four turns... but I need to be nearly 100% TP to do it (won't take the last rank until my base TP finally hits 100 for that reason).
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Oh, no. I mean I beat it first try.
And Imperial does have one thing Gunner doesn't, but they can"t use turn 1: Charge Edge. Gunner can force boost for the same effect though (or more with lucky Double Action).
I don't hit 4-digit damage yet except on Miasma Tsunami turns anyways.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
Party:
Imperial / Hero
Harbinger / War Magus
Survivalist / Ninja
Sovereign / Farmer
Gunner / Nightseeker
All level 50.
Oroboros 10: Cleared L8. I just felt bad for the boss, it couldn't do anything to me at all. Not because of binds or ailments... but because I can buff and debuff anything I need to all the time. Also, 1k damage Hazy Arrow is delicious with how much it missed my survivalist after adding Ninja power (it uh... seems to have shit accuracy in general, to be honest).
The subclassing didn't really matter for the boss... but it didn't hurt either. Going to be really helpful getting that extra healing every turn when exploring, and so many nice new passives for everyone. Might keep the survivalist in front more and Chain Dance/Hazy Arrow for budget nukes... this party can make really good use of swapping folks around.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy