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[Anthem] Death from Above ! and Sideways ! sometimes even from Below !

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Posts

  • furlionfurlion Riskbreaker Lea MondeRegistered User regular
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    So, if anyone cares, the whole scaling thing is kinda broken and probably requires at least a partial, if not full, rebuild of their combat system to fix. Essentially numbers don't matter, at all. When you do 2k damage on a shot to an enemy, that doesn't matter because there's no direct correlation to the actual percentage health you're actually doing to the enemy on the back-end. The percent health damage you do is only a direct correlation of your average (not summed) power level. In fact, any epic gear you wear is actively gimping your damage (though it might increase your survivability via inscriptions). It's the same with the amount of damage you take (though there seems to be an inverse relationship here, the higher your average gear level, the more damage you take a a percentage of your health). While this damage done is mostly measured and seen via melee and ultimate, there are anecdotes of people in the thread testing with weapon damage as well and seeing similar effects; ie take off all but legendary gear and it will take less bullets to kill the exact same enemy on the same difficulty.

    Apparently the strongest build right now is an interceptor/colossus wearing as much legendary, but nothing else, and can melee cuisinart/smash GM3 as if it were nothing. Doesn't matter what those legendaries are, just the average item level. Also, if you take a naked level 30 range and equip only 1 item, any legendary, your ultimate will do over 1M damage.

    We've reached the point where builds literally don't matter at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b1bcbx/powerscaling_why_loot_doesnt_matter_anymore_math/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b0znzd/after_running_tests_it_seems_that_to_shields_does/

    I was just coming in here to talk about this. How does Bioware fix something like that? They clearly did not pay any attention to any other games in the genre and it seems like every few days we find a new way to show it. I really like the core combat but they fucked up in so many ways it is almost impressive.

    sig.gif Gamertag: KL Retribution
    PSN:Furlion
    mikea
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Heh yeah I have a new loadout where my only legendary (the only I own) is the frost grenade.
    No support, no components, and basic missile thingie that comes default.


    Then for weapons I'm not sure if i should use the MWs I have, or go to basic guns.


    Will test it out this weekend to see how it fares in GM1/2...

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    At this point I'm kind of wondering if even the devs have a solid grasp on how their scaling system works.
    There's two immediate problems here.
    1. Players are accustomed to bigger numbers being better. This complicates that since it seems that the interaction of stuff means that their combat mechanics are more about doing a certain percentage amount of damage instead of purely lopping of raw hit points from a known quantity.
    2. That disconnect also means that all those numbers popping above critters' heads aren't exactly meaningful. They're not useless, but if you do 100 damage to something with 1000 HP, then you upgrade to something that does 200 damage but also ups that HP pool to 2000 HP, then what exactly is the benefit.
    Basically their combat scaling thing seems to undercut some of the positive feedback loop that getting better gear is a part of.

  • ThegreatcowThegreatcow Lord of All Bacons Washington State - It's Wet up here innit? Registered User regular
    MMMig wrote: »
    Heh yeah I have a new loadout where my only legendary (the only I own) is the frost grenade.
    No support, no components, and basic missile thingie that comes default.


    Then for weapons I'm not sure if i should use the MWs I have, or go to basic guns.


    Will test it out this weekend to see how it fares in GM1/2...

    I'm legit going to try to seeing what happens equipping only my 3 MW items I have (Fist of Straael, the Artenia LMG, and the Black Powder flak cannon) on my colossus. Should be interesting at least.

    MMMig
  • TurambarTurambar Avocado at law Registered User regular
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b1gv49/game_update_march_15_2019_various_improvements_to/
    Hello again, Freelancers.
    In the latest server-side update, we’ve made some notable changes to the loot drop rate in specific scenarios, which will take effect immediately in a server-side tuning update (i.e. you will not need to download anything.)

    These changes include:
    Masterwork & Legendary drop rates have been increased for Grandmaster 2 and Grandmaster 3 difficulty levels.
    Masterwork & Legendary drop rates have been increased for harder enemies at all difficulty levels. This includes: Legendary Titan, Epic Titan, Legendary Fury, Legendary Acid Ursix and Legendary Luminary Elder.

    As a reminder of Chad's post on Twitter last weekend, the team is planning to make significant changes to loot in the coming months, but we’re starting with some incremental changes (like today's,) so we can better navigate that evolution.

    Stronger Together!
    -AJ

    Speaking of loot in GM2

    Steam: turamb | Origin: Turamb | 3DS: 3411-1109-4537 | NNID: Turambar
    Phoenix138MMMigspool32GONG-00Corporal Carlenvoy1NogginForar
  • Phoenix138Phoenix138 ArizonaRegistered User regular
    Turambar wrote: »
    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b1gv49/game_update_march_15_2019_various_improvements_to/
    Hello again, Freelancers.
    In the latest server-side update, we’ve made some notable changes to the loot drop rate in specific scenarios, which will take effect immediately in a server-side tuning update (i.e. you will not need to download anything.)

    These changes include:
    Masterwork & Legendary drop rates have been increased for Grandmaster 2 and Grandmaster 3 difficulty levels.
    Masterwork & Legendary drop rates have been increased for harder enemies at all difficulty levels. This includes: Legendary Titan, Epic Titan, Legendary Fury, Legendary Acid Ursix and Legendary Luminary Elder.

    As a reminder of Chad's post on Twitter last weekend, the team is planning to make significant changes to loot in the coming months, but we’re starting with some incremental changes (like today's,) so we can better navigate that evolution.

    Stronger Together!
    -AJ

    Speaking of loot in GM2

    That sounds nice.

    TurambarMMMig
  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    furlion wrote: »
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    So, if anyone cares, the whole scaling thing is kinda broken and probably requires at least a partial, if not full, rebuild of their combat system to fix. Essentially numbers don't matter, at all. When you do 2k damage on a shot to an enemy, that doesn't matter because there's no direct correlation to the actual percentage health you're actually doing to the enemy on the back-end. The percent health damage you do is only a direct correlation of your average (not summed) power level. In fact, any epic gear you wear is actively gimping your damage (though it might increase your survivability via inscriptions). It's the same with the amount of damage you take (though there seems to be an inverse relationship here, the higher your average gear level, the more damage you take a a percentage of your health). While this damage done is mostly measured and seen via melee and ultimate, there are anecdotes of people in the thread testing with weapon damage as well and seeing similar effects; ie take off all but legendary gear and it will take less bullets to kill the exact same enemy on the same difficulty.

    Apparently the strongest build right now is an interceptor/colossus wearing as much legendary, but nothing else, and can melee cuisinart/smash GM3 as if it were nothing. Doesn't matter what those legendaries are, just the average item level. Also, if you take a naked level 30 range and equip only 1 item, any legendary, your ultimate will do over 1M damage.

    We've reached the point where builds literally don't matter at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b1bcbx/powerscaling_why_loot_doesnt_matter_anymore_math/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b0znzd/after_running_tests_it_seems_that_to_shields_does/

    I was just coming in here to talk about this. How does Bioware fix something like that? They clearly did not pay any attention to any other games in the genre and it seems like every few days we find a new way to show it. I really like the core combat but they fucked up in so many ways it is almost impressive.

    This seems almost unfixable at this point to create a system that produces the kind of loot system and difficulty progression that players are expecting.

    I think you'd need to go back in and give weapons and enemies hard damage/health numbers - which seems like way to much balance work to introduce at this stage. I'm sure they can go in and do soft fixes that make it so un-equiping gear doesn't result in you doing more damage - but if the core of the damage system is tied so strictly to gear score - builds and inscriptions are just fluffy flavor text on top of the color of your loot

    PSN SeGaTai
    Simpsonia
  • SimpsoniaSimpsonia Registered User regular
    edited March 15
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    furlion wrote: »
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    So, if anyone cares, the whole scaling thing is kinda broken and probably requires at least a partial, if not full, rebuild of their combat system to fix. Essentially numbers don't matter, at all. When you do 2k damage on a shot to an enemy, that doesn't matter because there's no direct correlation to the actual percentage health you're actually doing to the enemy on the back-end. The percent health damage you do is only a direct correlation of your average (not summed) power level. In fact, any epic gear you wear is actively gimping your damage (though it might increase your survivability via inscriptions). It's the same with the amount of damage you take (though there seems to be an inverse relationship here, the higher your average gear level, the more damage you take a a percentage of your health). While this damage done is mostly measured and seen via melee and ultimate, there are anecdotes of people in the thread testing with weapon damage as well and seeing similar effects; ie take off all but legendary gear and it will take less bullets to kill the exact same enemy on the same difficulty.

    Apparently the strongest build right now is an interceptor/colossus wearing as much legendary, but nothing else, and can melee cuisinart/smash GM3 as if it were nothing. Doesn't matter what those legendaries are, just the average item level. Also, if you take a naked level 30 range and equip only 1 item, any legendary, your ultimate will do over 1M damage.

    We've reached the point where builds literally don't matter at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b1bcbx/powerscaling_why_loot_doesnt_matter_anymore_math/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b0znzd/after_running_tests_it_seems_that_to_shields_does/

    I was just coming in here to talk about this. How does Bioware fix something like that? They clearly did not pay any attention to any other games in the genre and it seems like every few days we find a new way to show it. I really like the core combat but they fucked up in so many ways it is almost impressive.

    This seems almost unfixable at this point to create a system that produces the kind of loot system and difficulty progression that players are expecting.

    I think you'd need to go back in and give weapons and enemies hard damage/health numbers - which seems like way to much balance work to introduce at this stage. I'm sure they can go in and do soft fixes that make it so un-equiping gear doesn't result in you doing more damage - but if the core of the damage system is tied so strictly to gear score - builds and inscriptions are just fluffy flavor text on top of the color of your loot

    I'm honestly not sure how they can fix this. It seems literally everything in the game is based off of your average item level score. Even if they fix it so your average is calculated off all 11 slots rather than just what's equipped, you're completely right that item rarity, regardless of build, inscriptions, etc is the single most important part of loot.

    The only way I could see them salvaging this is tying damage done to the specific item level rather than any sort of averages, adding two new additional slots for melee and ultimate gears so that these don't have to ride off of your average. There would still be scaling, but at least they wouldn't have to rely on averages for the damages, they could spin everything out into item rarity. The downside though is that incoming damage still seems to be tied to average item score, and some people have been theorizing that damage received is actually more a function of average team item score, rather than individual.

    Edit: looks like Bioware is trying to put a bandaid on a gaping wound. They'll be calculating these averages on the number of slots unlocked (so all 11 at level 30). Still does nothing to address the issue that gear score and rarity are all that matter over builds, synergies, and inscriptions.

    Simpsonia on
    Cobell
  • KyanilisKyanilis Registered User regular
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    furlion wrote: »
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    So, if anyone cares, the whole scaling thing is kinda broken and probably requires at least a partial, if not full, rebuild of their combat system to fix. Essentially numbers don't matter, at all. When you do 2k damage on a shot to an enemy, that doesn't matter because there's no direct correlation to the actual percentage health you're actually doing to the enemy on the back-end. The percent health damage you do is only a direct correlation of your average (not summed) power level. In fact, any epic gear you wear is actively gimping your damage (though it might increase your survivability via inscriptions). It's the same with the amount of damage you take (though there seems to be an inverse relationship here, the higher your average gear level, the more damage you take a a percentage of your health). While this damage done is mostly measured and seen via melee and ultimate, there are anecdotes of people in the thread testing with weapon damage as well and seeing similar effects; ie take off all but legendary gear and it will take less bullets to kill the exact same enemy on the same difficulty.

    Apparently the strongest build right now is an interceptor/colossus wearing as much legendary, but nothing else, and can melee cuisinart/smash GM3 as if it were nothing. Doesn't matter what those legendaries are, just the average item level. Also, if you take a naked level 30 range and equip only 1 item, any legendary, your ultimate will do over 1M damage.

    We've reached the point where builds literally don't matter at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b1bcbx/powerscaling_why_loot_doesnt_matter_anymore_math/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b0znzd/after_running_tests_it_seems_that_to_shields_does/

    I was just coming in here to talk about this. How does Bioware fix something like that? They clearly did not pay any attention to any other games in the genre and it seems like every few days we find a new way to show it. I really like the core combat but they fucked up in so many ways it is almost impressive.

    This seems almost unfixable at this point to create a system that produces the kind of loot system and difficulty progression that players are expecting.

    I think you'd need to go back in and give weapons and enemies hard damage/health numbers - which seems like way to much balance work to introduce at this stage. I'm sure they can go in and do soft fixes that make it so un-equiping gear doesn't result in you doing more damage - but if the core of the damage system is tied so strictly to gear score - builds and inscriptions are just fluffy flavor text on top of the color of your loot

    I'm honestly not sure how they can fix this. It seems literally everything in the game is based off of your average item level score. Even if they fix it so your average is calculated off all 11 slots rather than just what's equipped, you're completely right that item rarity, regardless of build, inscriptions, etc is the single most important part of loot.

    The only way I could see them salvaging this is tying damage done to the specific item level rather than any sort of averages, adding two new additional slots for melee and ultimate gears so that these don't have to ride off of your average. There would still be scaling, but at least they wouldn't have to rely on averages for the damages, they could spin everything out into item rarity. The downside though is that incoming damage still seems to be tied to average item score, and some people have been theorizing that damage received is actually more a function of average team item score, rather than individual.

    Edit: looks like Bioware is trying to put a bandaid on a gaping wound. They'll be calculating these averages on the number of slots unlocked (so all 11 at level 30). Still does nothing to address the issue that gear score and rarity are all that matter over builds, synergies, and inscriptions.

    I'm probably misunderstanding something here but I'm kind of confused.

    Shouldn't someone in all Legendaries be generally stronger than someone in Epics, even if those Epics have great rolls? Right now the problem is that people can cheese it by not equipping anything lower than Legendaries at all, that's obviously an issue. The fix they're adding will force you to still equip something, including Epics if you don't have a MW/Legendary version.

    I'm not saying there aren't some overall issues with scaling, to be honest I don't think any game has gotten gear scaling to work properly without some sort of issue that lets people cheese it, but I feel like it's expected that equipping higher level gear is equal to being stronger, which is what this fix does.

    spool32Atlas in ChainsFencingsax
  • spool32spool32 Contrary Library Registered User regular
    yeah I don't agree that gear score is "all that matters". It looks to matter significantly for setting a baseline but all the inscriptions and bonus powers that MW and Legendaries give you matter a ton!

    Atlas in Chains
  • evilbobevilbob Registered User regular
    spool32 wrote: »
    yeah I don't agree that gear score is "all that matters". It looks to matter significantly for setting a baseline but all the inscriptions and bonus powers that MW and Legendaries give you matter a ton!

    well except for the +x% shield inscriptions which last I heard did absolutely nothing.

    DDLLLLDL - Bottom in November
    WWDWDWWWWDWWWWLDWWW - Premiers in April
    WW - Champions in May

  • morgan_cokemorgan_coke Registered User regular
    edited March 15
    Looking at what has happened with Anthem so far, and what happened with Destiny 1 pre-launch, I think it's pretty clear now that both games went through the same thing, where the initial plan was moving along well, and then for some reason it was nuked at the last minute by higher ups, new staff came on, old staff left, and the game was basically built up on a crash course in a drastically shortened time period.

    I mean, that explains the E3 trailers and gameplay footage, all the staff from Andromeda being moved over, Casey Hudson coming back, why the game seems so unfinished after 5+ years of development, etc. etc.

    From a business side of things, I think EA is killing Anthem this summer after the roadmap is done (they know if it ended earlier they'd get sued, and they saw what happened with Aliens: Colonial Marines when clearly marked advertisements were misleading vs. the way they skated on the ME3 lawsuit because dev interviews aren't technically advertising).

    But compare this game, its ratings, its press, the low sales (not for sure with digital, but by every publicly available metric this is far more of a bomb than a hit), to the released at the same time Apex Legends, and it's not hard to see or even understand where the money is going to be allocated going forwards.

    It's unfortunate, I really like the gameplay of the javelins, but there's just too much to fix and add here. I played around 50 or 60 hours, so I got my moneys worth, but I don't think EA did, and that means this is done. At this point I just hope it doesn't drag DA:4 down with it.

    morgan_coke on
    XBL: Morgan Coke Yes, there is a space, not an underscore. I'm old school like that.
    Battle.net: morgancoke#1589

    Titan's Creed: Jump first, don't ask questions, punch everything
  • SimpsoniaSimpsonia Registered User regular
    edited March 15
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    furlion wrote: »
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    So, if anyone cares, the whole scaling thing is kinda broken and probably requires at least a partial, if not full, rebuild of their combat system to fix. Essentially numbers don't matter, at all. When you do 2k damage on a shot to an enemy, that doesn't matter because there's no direct correlation to the actual percentage health you're actually doing to the enemy on the back-end. The percent health damage you do is only a direct correlation of your average (not summed) power level. In fact, any epic gear you wear is actively gimping your damage (though it might increase your survivability via inscriptions). It's the same with the amount of damage you take (though there seems to be an inverse relationship here, the higher your average gear level, the more damage you take a a percentage of your health). While this damage done is mostly measured and seen via melee and ultimate, there are anecdotes of people in the thread testing with weapon damage as well and seeing similar effects; ie take off all but legendary gear and it will take less bullets to kill the exact same enemy on the same difficulty.

    Apparently the strongest build right now is an interceptor/colossus wearing as much legendary, but nothing else, and can melee cuisinart/smash GM3 as if it were nothing. Doesn't matter what those legendaries are, just the average item level. Also, if you take a naked level 30 range and equip only 1 item, any legendary, your ultimate will do over 1M damage.

    We've reached the point where builds literally don't matter at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b1bcbx/powerscaling_why_loot_doesnt_matter_anymore_math/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b0znzd/after_running_tests_it_seems_that_to_shields_does/

    I was just coming in here to talk about this. How does Bioware fix something like that? They clearly did not pay any attention to any other games in the genre and it seems like every few days we find a new way to show it. I really like the core combat but they fucked up in so many ways it is almost impressive.

    This seems almost unfixable at this point to create a system that produces the kind of loot system and difficulty progression that players are expecting.

    I think you'd need to go back in and give weapons and enemies hard damage/health numbers - which seems like way to much balance work to introduce at this stage. I'm sure they can go in and do soft fixes that make it so un-equiping gear doesn't result in you doing more damage - but if the core of the damage system is tied so strictly to gear score - builds and inscriptions are just fluffy flavor text on top of the color of your loot

    I'm honestly not sure how they can fix this. It seems literally everything in the game is based off of your average item level score. Even if they fix it so your average is calculated off all 11 slots rather than just what's equipped, you're completely right that item rarity, regardless of build, inscriptions, etc is the single most important part of loot.

    The only way I could see them salvaging this is tying damage done to the specific item level rather than any sort of averages, adding two new additional slots for melee and ultimate gears so that these don't have to ride off of your average. There would still be scaling, but at least they wouldn't have to rely on averages for the damages, they could spin everything out into item rarity. The downside though is that incoming damage still seems to be tied to average item score, and some people have been theorizing that damage received is actually more a function of average team item score, rather than individual.

    Edit: looks like Bioware is trying to put a bandaid on a gaping wound. They'll be calculating these averages on the number of slots unlocked (so all 11 at level 30). Still does nothing to address the issue that gear score and rarity are all that matter over builds, synergies, and inscriptions.

    I'm probably misunderstanding something here but I'm kind of confused.

    Shouldn't someone in all Legendaries be generally stronger than someone in Epics, even if those Epics have great rolls? Right now the problem is that people can cheese it by not equipping anything lower than Legendaries at all, that's obviously an issue. The fix they're adding will force you to still equip something, including Epics if you don't have a MW/Legendary version.

    I'm not saying there aren't some overall issues with scaling, to be honest I don't think any game has gotten gear scaling to work properly without some sort of issue that lets people cheese it, but I feel like it's expected that equipping higher level gear is equal to being stronger, which is what this fix does.

    Well there's a number of things. Currently outside of the new MW components, Epics are the only source of large percentage inscriptions of useful stats like +%armor/shields/blast/dmg/impact etc. The inscription rolls on your class specific components are essentially worthless in comparison. In a system with fixed stats, it would make sense that you would make choices, and would be able say, oh that +65% blast damage is worth more to me than a mediocre rolled MW component. But, in doing so you are gimping your behind the scenes damage scaling in a way that is literally impossible to quantify. Even a stat sheet wouldn't show the effects, because the scaling affects things on a much more basic level than that.

    Second, what the new item level scaling reveals is that even the best MW items rolled items are dragging you down as well, in comparison to mediocre rolled legendaries. A good system should have you make hard choices on stats, set bonuses, item rarity etc. In this system, the only thing that matters is item rarity, and if you can game it, you transcend builds. The simple fact that an item is legendary shouldn't mean that it makes it a no brainer choice over a god-rolled MW.

    Simpsonia on
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Why not? Legendary is better than masterwork, so what? I don't have a single legendary, but I have tons of duplicates in masterwork. I'm making choices all the time based on inscriptions, it's just that the choices are within the same tier.

  • KyanilisKyanilis Registered User regular
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    furlion wrote: »
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    So, if anyone cares, the whole scaling thing is kinda broken and probably requires at least a partial, if not full, rebuild of their combat system to fix. Essentially numbers don't matter, at all. When you do 2k damage on a shot to an enemy, that doesn't matter because there's no direct correlation to the actual percentage health you're actually doing to the enemy on the back-end. The percent health damage you do is only a direct correlation of your average (not summed) power level. In fact, any epic gear you wear is actively gimping your damage (though it might increase your survivability via inscriptions). It's the same with the amount of damage you take (though there seems to be an inverse relationship here, the higher your average gear level, the more damage you take a a percentage of your health). While this damage done is mostly measured and seen via melee and ultimate, there are anecdotes of people in the thread testing with weapon damage as well and seeing similar effects; ie take off all but legendary gear and it will take less bullets to kill the exact same enemy on the same difficulty.

    Apparently the strongest build right now is an interceptor/colossus wearing as much legendary, but nothing else, and can melee cuisinart/smash GM3 as if it were nothing. Doesn't matter what those legendaries are, just the average item level. Also, if you take a naked level 30 range and equip only 1 item, any legendary, your ultimate will do over 1M damage.

    We've reached the point where builds literally don't matter at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b1bcbx/powerscaling_why_loot_doesnt_matter_anymore_math/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b0znzd/after_running_tests_it_seems_that_to_shields_does/

    I was just coming in here to talk about this. How does Bioware fix something like that? They clearly did not pay any attention to any other games in the genre and it seems like every few days we find a new way to show it. I really like the core combat but they fucked up in so many ways it is almost impressive.

    This seems almost unfixable at this point to create a system that produces the kind of loot system and difficulty progression that players are expecting.

    I think you'd need to go back in and give weapons and enemies hard damage/health numbers - which seems like way to much balance work to introduce at this stage. I'm sure they can go in and do soft fixes that make it so un-equiping gear doesn't result in you doing more damage - but if the core of the damage system is tied so strictly to gear score - builds and inscriptions are just fluffy flavor text on top of the color of your loot

    I'm honestly not sure how they can fix this. It seems literally everything in the game is based off of your average item level score. Even if they fix it so your average is calculated off all 11 slots rather than just what's equipped, you're completely right that item rarity, regardless of build, inscriptions, etc is the single most important part of loot.

    The only way I could see them salvaging this is tying damage done to the specific item level rather than any sort of averages, adding two new additional slots for melee and ultimate gears so that these don't have to ride off of your average. There would still be scaling, but at least they wouldn't have to rely on averages for the damages, they could spin everything out into item rarity. The downside though is that incoming damage still seems to be tied to average item score, and some people have been theorizing that damage received is actually more a function of average team item score, rather than individual.

    Edit: looks like Bioware is trying to put a bandaid on a gaping wound. They'll be calculating these averages on the number of slots unlocked (so all 11 at level 30). Still does nothing to address the issue that gear score and rarity are all that matter over builds, synergies, and inscriptions.

    I'm probably misunderstanding something here but I'm kind of confused.

    Shouldn't someone in all Legendaries be generally stronger than someone in Epics, even if those Epics have great rolls? Right now the problem is that people can cheese it by not equipping anything lower than Legendaries at all, that's obviously an issue. The fix they're adding will force you to still equip something, including Epics if you don't have a MW/Legendary version.

    I'm not saying there aren't some overall issues with scaling, to be honest I don't think any game has gotten gear scaling to work properly without some sort of issue that lets people cheese it, but I feel like it's expected that equipping higher level gear is equal to being stronger, which is what this fix does.

    Well there's a number of things. Currently outside of the new MW components, Epics are the only source of large percentage inscriptions of useful stats like +%armor/shields/blast/dmg/impact etc. The inscription rolls on your class specific components are essentially worthless in comparison. In a system with fixed stats, it would make sense that you would make choices, and would be able say, oh that +65% blast damage is worth more to me than a mediocre rolled MW component. But, in doing so you are gimping your behind the scenes damage scaling in a way that is literally impossible to quantify. Even a stat sheet wouldn't show the effects, because the scaling affects things on a much more basic level than that.

    Second, what the new item level scaling reveals is that even the best MW items rolled items are dragging you down as well, in comparison to mediocre rolled legendaries. A good system should have you make hard choices on stats, set bonuses, item rarity etc. In this system, the only thing that matters is item rarity, and if you can game it, you transcend builds. The simple fact that an item is legendary shouldn't mean that it makes it a no brainer choice over a god-rolled MW.

    The second part of this isn't completely accurate though, and not what the post demonstrates. It shows that Epics are never better than a MW/Legendary, true, but there's a larger power gap between the two so this makes sense. The game doesn't hide the fact that MW/Legendaries aren't in the same class as Epics. This shouldn't be surprising to anyone.

    What you're asserting now is that a god-rolled MW is never better than any Legendary roll, which isn't exactly correct or mentioned in the post. Odds are an average or even slightly below average Legendary is better, sure, but I'd argue that that's a good thing. You should feel excited when you see a Legendary drop! They're somewhat rare for a reason.

    I would agree that the inscription pools probably need tweaked/overhauled if some are flat out removed from higher tier pools. But I don't really buy the argument that "oh man my mostly purple build doesn't steamroll GM modes!" I mean, this is a no brainer, you're also not pushing the higher GRs in D3 running rare gear either. It's also a much easier system to understand Legendary > MW > Epic.

    Atlas in Chains
  • Phoenix138Phoenix138 ArizonaRegistered User regular
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    furlion wrote: »
    Simpsonia wrote: »
    So, if anyone cares, the whole scaling thing is kinda broken and probably requires at least a partial, if not full, rebuild of their combat system to fix. Essentially numbers don't matter, at all. When you do 2k damage on a shot to an enemy, that doesn't matter because there's no direct correlation to the actual percentage health you're actually doing to the enemy on the back-end. The percent health damage you do is only a direct correlation of your average (not summed) power level. In fact, any epic gear you wear is actively gimping your damage (though it might increase your survivability via inscriptions). It's the same with the amount of damage you take (though there seems to be an inverse relationship here, the higher your average gear level, the more damage you take a a percentage of your health). While this damage done is mostly measured and seen via melee and ultimate, there are anecdotes of people in the thread testing with weapon damage as well and seeing similar effects; ie take off all but legendary gear and it will take less bullets to kill the exact same enemy on the same difficulty.

    Apparently the strongest build right now is an interceptor/colossus wearing as much legendary, but nothing else, and can melee cuisinart/smash GM3 as if it were nothing. Doesn't matter what those legendaries are, just the average item level. Also, if you take a naked level 30 range and equip only 1 item, any legendary, your ultimate will do over 1M damage.

    We've reached the point where builds literally don't matter at all.

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b1bcbx/powerscaling_why_loot_doesnt_matter_anymore_math/

    https://www.reddit.com/r/AnthemTheGame/comments/b0znzd/after_running_tests_it_seems_that_to_shields_does/

    I was just coming in here to talk about this. How does Bioware fix something like that? They clearly did not pay any attention to any other games in the genre and it seems like every few days we find a new way to show it. I really like the core combat but they fucked up in so many ways it is almost impressive.

    This seems almost unfixable at this point to create a system that produces the kind of loot system and difficulty progression that players are expecting.

    I think you'd need to go back in and give weapons and enemies hard damage/health numbers - which seems like way to much balance work to introduce at this stage. I'm sure they can go in and do soft fixes that make it so un-equiping gear doesn't result in you doing more damage - but if the core of the damage system is tied so strictly to gear score - builds and inscriptions are just fluffy flavor text on top of the color of your loot

    I'm honestly not sure how they can fix this. It seems literally everything in the game is based off of your average item level score. Even if they fix it so your average is calculated off all 11 slots rather than just what's equipped, you're completely right that item rarity, regardless of build, inscriptions, etc is the single most important part of loot.

    The only way I could see them salvaging this is tying damage done to the specific item level rather than any sort of averages, adding two new additional slots for melee and ultimate gears so that these don't have to ride off of your average. There would still be scaling, but at least they wouldn't have to rely on averages for the damages, they could spin everything out into item rarity.

    It’s possible i’m fundamentally misunderstanding something, as always, but as far as the issue concerning calculating melee and ultimate damage is concerned i believe the fix you suggested would solve the issue nicely. Just expose the gear slots for melee and ultimates (even though at the moment each javelin would only have one of each) and calculate the damage solely on that. That would simplify things for everybody while also removing the ability to game the system by unequipping items.

  • RonaldoTheGypsyRonaldoTheGypsy Or just "Ron" Registered User regular
    Sure but wearing legendaries affects an invisible powerscore stat that can arbitrarily multiply your damage by over 22x

    The reason legendaries work in d3 is because they have the best stats or set bonuses, not because wearing a yellow instead of a legendary precludes you from a hidden 1500% damage modifier.

  • evilbobevilbob Registered User regular
    Why not? Legendary is better than masterwork, so what? I don't have a single legendary, but I have tons of duplicates in masterwork. I'm making choices all the time based on inscriptions, it's just that the choices are within the same tier.

    So you get two legendary guns and two legendary bits of gear.

    Now everything else except the tiniest fraction of what drops is useless. Forever.

    I mean you can still try other gear or guns I guess, but the game will actively punish you for doing so by nerfing your melee, ult and combo significantly.

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  • ObiFettObiFett Use the Force As You WishRegistered User regular
    evilbob wrote: »
    Why not? Legendary is better than masterwork, so what? I don't have a single legendary, but I have tons of duplicates in masterwork. I'm making choices all the time based on inscriptions, it's just that the choices are within the same tier.

    So you get two legendary guns and two legendary bits of gear.

    Now everything else except the tiniest fraction of what drops is useless. Forever.

    I mean you can still try other gear or guns I guess, but the game will actively punish you for doing so by nerfing your melee, ult and combo significantly.

    Nah, with just two legendary bits of gear you die incredibly fast.

  • evilbobevilbob Registered User regular
    ObiFett wrote: »
    evilbob wrote: »
    Why not? Legendary is better than masterwork, so what? I don't have a single legendary, but I have tons of duplicates in masterwork. I'm making choices all the time based on inscriptions, it's just that the choices are within the same tier.

    So you get two legendary guns and two legendary bits of gear.

    Now everything else except the tiniest fraction of what drops is useless. Forever.

    I mean you can still try other gear or guns I guess, but the game will actively punish you for doing so by nerfing your melee, ult and combo significantly.

    Nah, with just two legendary bits of gear you die incredibly fast.

    I mean your gear as in your abilities. Not components.

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  • evilbobevilbob Registered User regular
    The dumbest thing is all these scaling issues came up because they buffed melee, ult and combos by drastically increasing gear scores, making the increments huge and all the issues with it blatantly obvious. If they'd just buffed melee etc and left the modest gear score increases the scaling wouldn't be an issue.

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  • KyanilisKyanilis Registered User regular
    evilbob wrote: »
    Why not? Legendary is better than masterwork, so what? I don't have a single legendary, but I have tons of duplicates in masterwork. I'm making choices all the time based on inscriptions, it's just that the choices are within the same tier.

    So you get two legendary guns and two legendary bits of gear.

    Now everything else except the tiniest fraction of what drops is useless. Forever.

    I mean you can still try other gear or guns I guess, but the game will actively punish you for doing so by nerfing your melee, ult and combo significantly.

    Again, the comparisons being made are Epic vs MW/Legendary. There is a huge gap in power between the two, it makes sense that you shouldn't be as strong wearing mostly Epics.

    If you have two legendary abilities and you want to use a MW one, you can! Yes, you'll do less melee/ult damage overall but the "punishment" is a) significantly less so than what the people are complaining about with their "purple" builds which is what this argument is framed around and b) still leaves you in a good position to complete GM1/GM2 content.

    I mean, yes someone decked out in all Legendaries is going to be stronger (this makes sense?) but lets not pretend that you're somehow completely unable to function in GM content with all MW.

    I'm not even saying the scaling is good! There's likely a much better way to accomplish what they want. I'm just questioning why this "revelation" is causing people to freak out and call the game completely broken and "oh how will they ever fix this??!" when the only thing it seems to break are op purple builds when it's clear the game was never intended for those to be used in GM content.

    Atlas in Chains
  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    Definitely my favorite part of Playing Video Games Online™ is when I put in a few hours, really get to like some setting and set of core mechanics, and look - wow! - I got a couple pieces of high-quality loot for my little space mans, and my numbers go up, and I have like _five_ different affixes on this thing, that's cool! There's a little synergy between this piece and that piece! Cool! I'm excited to see what else is out there, and hopefully there will be some attention paid to QoL and bug fixing and it will be great.
    And then along comes The Internet and says
    You buffoon. You mouth-breathing, ham-fisted moron. Don't you see that the best way to play this game is to equip only a single gun from the tutorial and run the first 2/3 of one particular dungeon over and over again until you can't stand anything about it anymore? What is this? You read the quest text!? What an absolutely suboptimal consumer of pixels you are. Fuck you. Go play Digimon and leave us to hate this new game we play all the time in peace.
    It's the best. Way better than the terrible days of the ancient past when I could pay $60 for a game that literally could not be played with other people at all.

    _
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  • SimpsoniaSimpsonia Registered User regular
    edited March 15
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    evilbob wrote: »
    Why not? Legendary is better than masterwork, so what? I don't have a single legendary, but I have tons of duplicates in masterwork. I'm making choices all the time based on inscriptions, it's just that the choices are within the same tier.

    So you get two legendary guns and two legendary bits of gear.

    Now everything else except the tiniest fraction of what drops is useless. Forever.

    I mean you can still try other gear or guns I guess, but the game will actively punish you for doing so by nerfing your melee, ult and combo significantly.

    Again, the comparisons being made are Epic vs MW/Legendary. There is a huge gap in power between the two, it makes sense that you shouldn't be as strong wearing mostly Epics.

    If you have two legendary abilities and you want to use a MW one, you can! Yes, you'll do less melee/ult damage overall but the "punishment" is a) significantly less so than what the people are complaining about with their "purple" builds which is what this argument is framed around and b) still leaves you in a good position to complete GM1/GM2 content.

    I mean, yes someone decked out in all Legendaries is going to be stronger (this makes sense?) but lets not pretend that you're somehow completely unable to function in GM content with all MW.

    I'm not even saying the scaling is good! There's likely a much better way to accomplish what they want. I'm just questioning why this "revelation" is causing people to freak out and call the game completely broken and "oh how will they ever fix this??!" when the only thing it seems to break are op purple builds when it's clear the game was never intended for those to be used in GM content.

    But it's not just about epics, it's between MW and Legendary as well. If you play a class that is reliant on melee/ult/combo, ie your Interceptor, and to a slightly lesser degree, Colossus, then you are actively punished for even equipping MW instead of whatever shitty Legendary you have for that slot. The pure fact that an Interceptor/Colossus that is able to equip all Legendaries, regardless of type or inscription and are able to go smash GM3 with ease regardless of build shows that there's a problem here. You can't do that with all MW, or even a smart mix of MW and Legendary. All because there's hidden modifiers behind the scenes that scale things on average gear score plateaus in ways we can't even quantify.

    This also exposes the worst parts about the whole inscription system. Inscriptions are all additive and have a logarithmic power curve. Even if you had all god-rolled MW you still can't even touch GM3 because of the way the hidden base damages and modifiers work, but if you get lucky and can piece together a full set of Legendary, regardless of inscriptions and synergies, you can steamroll it? That doesn't make sense. Builds and synergies should be the name of the end-game not rarity. That essentially just turns this into a gacha game.

    Edit: I guess the difference might not be quite as much as I was lead to believe with the first reddit post. It's still a big deal, in that the modifiers change a great deal between MW and Leg. It looks like there is roughly a 260% difference between full MW and full leggo. That is pretty significant in a game where the logarithmic nature of inscriptions puts you up against very real and punishing diminishing returns, but it's not as large as I thought it might be.

    Simpsonia on
  • AridholAridhol Registered User regular
    BioWare responded.
    Fixed in 1.04


    Darokaz:BioWare: Community Manager • 3h
    Spoke with the designer on this so I understand how it's being "fixed".

    Instead of using how many items you actually have equipped, the calculation will be done by how many slots you have unlocked. This means at level 30, for example, your average power score will be divided by 11 even if you have empty weapon/gear/component slots.


    So equipping just a couple legenedarys and nothing else won't make you insanely powerful.

    It still doesn't fix the issue that I can't tell what is actually more powerful between a mw w/stats and a legenedary with other stats.

    I have no true way to see my output power.

    I guess I just hate player based scaling to begin with.
    Let me choose the difficulty ala D3 and adjust loot and creatures accordingly.

    PapaganderPhoenix138SimpsoniaTynnanJimbo
  • SeGaTaiSeGaTai Registered User regular
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    evilbob wrote: »
    Why not? Legendary is better than masterwork, so what? I don't have a single legendary, but I have tons of duplicates in masterwork. I'm making choices all the time based on inscriptions, it's just that the choices are within the same tier.

    So you get two legendary guns and two legendary bits of gear.

    Now everything else except the tiniest fraction of what drops is useless. Forever.

    I mean you can still try other gear or guns I guess, but the game will actively punish you for doing so by nerfing your melee, ult and combo significantly.

    Again, the comparisons being made are Epic vs MW/Legendary. There is a huge gap in power between the two, it makes sense that you shouldn't be as strong wearing mostly Epics.

    If you have two legendary abilities and you want to use a MW one, you can! Yes, you'll do less melee/ult damage overall but the "punishment" is a) significantly less so than what the people are complaining about with their "purple" builds which is what this argument is framed around and b) still leaves you in a good position to complete GM1/GM2 content.

    I mean, yes someone decked out in all Legendaries is going to be stronger (this makes sense?) but lets not pretend that you're somehow completely unable to function in GM content with all MW.

    I'm not even saying the scaling is good! There's likely a much better way to accomplish what they want. I'm just questioning why this "revelation" is causing people to freak out and call the game completely broken and "oh how will they ever fix this??!" when the only thing it seems to break are op purple builds when it's clear the game was never intended for those to be used in GM content.

    That there are power gaps between epic/MW/Legendary isn't the really upsetting thing about all these findings. It's that it's impossible to tell how much more powerful one is over the other; without doing 3 days worth of tests and spreadsheets with specific variations of gear counting how many hits it takes to kill a single enemy.

    The way the damage system appears to be built makes it seem very unlikely we will ever get a comprehensive stats page for our character; because there is so much moving the numbers underneath. Even once you get to the top and your comparing two legendaries for the same slot; trying to figure out why a build with one over the other isn't obvious. If the whole averaged team gear score thing turns out to be true; even the relatively straight forward task of going into a mission with one loadout and looking at the damage numbers vs doing a 2nd mission and watching damage numbers; you'd need the same 3 other ppl all not changing gear between missions.

    Min/max-ing is a big thing for a lot of people in loot shooters; just going into a mission and feeling out qualitatively - did this build kill things good; won't cut it after awhile and makes the gear loop less exciting

    PSN SeGaTai
    Phoenix138
  • ChanusChanus Sugoi! ^_____^Registered User regular
    i dunno i’m tired of grinding games

    i just want to shoot mans and have fun

    is it maybe the case this horribly broken game is the one for me

    one where the gear is made up and the points don’t matter?

    **Winner Softest and Most Comfy Hugs Award Summer 2018**

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  • KyanilisKyanilis Registered User regular
    edited March 15
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    evilbob wrote: »
    Why not? Legendary is better than masterwork, so what? I don't have a single legendary, but I have tons of duplicates in masterwork. I'm making choices all the time based on inscriptions, it's just that the choices are within the same tier.

    So you get two legendary guns and two legendary bits of gear.

    Now everything else except the tiniest fraction of what drops is useless. Forever.

    I mean you can still try other gear or guns I guess, but the game will actively punish you for doing so by nerfing your melee, ult and combo significantly.

    Again, the comparisons being made are Epic vs MW/Legendary. There is a huge gap in power between the two, it makes sense that you shouldn't be as strong wearing mostly Epics.

    If you have two legendary abilities and you want to use a MW one, you can! Yes, you'll do less melee/ult damage overall but the "punishment" is a) significantly less so than what the people are complaining about with their "purple" builds which is what this argument is framed around and b) still leaves you in a good position to complete GM1/GM2 content.

    I mean, yes someone decked out in all Legendaries is going to be stronger (this makes sense?) but lets not pretend that you're somehow completely unable to function in GM content with all MW.

    I'm not even saying the scaling is good! There's likely a much better way to accomplish what they want. I'm just questioning why this "revelation" is causing people to freak out and call the game completely broken and "oh how will they ever fix this??!" when the only thing it seems to break are op purple builds when it's clear the game was never intended for those to be used in GM content.

    That there are power gaps between epic/MW/Legendary isn't the really upsetting thing about all these findings. It's that it's impossible to tell how much more powerful one is over the other; without doing 3 days worth of tests and spreadsheets with specific variations of gear counting how many hits it takes to kill a single enemy.

    The way the damage system appears to be built makes it seem very unlikely we will ever get a comprehensive stats page for our character; because there is so much moving the numbers underneath. Even once you get to the top and your comparing two legendaries for the same slot; trying to figure out why a build with one over the other isn't obvious. If the whole averaged team gear score thing turns out to be true; even the relatively straight forward task of going into a mission with one loadout and looking at the damage numbers vs doing a 2nd mission and watching damage numbers; you'd need the same 3 other ppl all not changing gear between missions.

    Min/max-ing is a big thing for a lot of people in loot shooters; just going into a mission and feeling out qualitatively - did this build kill things good; won't cut it after awhile and makes the gear loop less exciting

    I mean, they said they're working on a stats page. What it'll actually look like, we'll see! But they must have some ideas if they've already come out and said they are adding one. My guess is it won't be quite detailed enough in any case, likely because the scaling makes things weird, but they know what people are asking for so maybe they'll come up with something useful.

    I generally agree, having some hidden modifier is weird, ideally this number would be represented on the stats on the item in some form or more clearly explained. However, I would also argue that it's kind of a no brainer that an item that says it has 75 power is a lot better than an item that says it has 38 power. I don't think sitting down and doing 3 days worth of spreadsheets to prove that was worth the time. Knowing the modifier is, of course, handy, but I feel like there's some kind of "GOTCHYA!!" moment going on where people are just like "the more Legendaries I have the stronger I am!!!"

    Of course, the fact that you could cheese it and realistically equip just one and be op is a pretty severe bug but clearly something they can and will fix.

    Kyanilis on
  • DragkoniasDragkonias Registered User regular
    edited March 15
    So hmmm...I just saw a video going over this and the biggest issue seems to be that.

    A.) The scaling calculates equipped slots not total slots. Meaning you can game it by unequipping things.

    B) It mainly effects ultimates/melee. Slots that we know exist but are simply invisible and static rn.

    Umm... I'm gonna be honest I'm not sure what is unfixable about that.

    Its basic math.

    Dragkonias on
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  • Who-PsydWho-Psyd Registered User regular
    edited March 15
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    evilbob wrote: »
    Why not? Legendary is better than masterwork, so what? I don't have a single legendary, but I have tons of duplicates in masterwork. I'm making choices all the time based on inscriptions, it's just that the choices are within the same tier.

    So you get two legendary guns and two legendary bits of gear.

    Now everything else except the tiniest fraction of what drops is useless. Forever.

    I mean you can still try other gear or guns I guess, but the game will actively punish you for doing so by nerfing your melee, ult and combo significantly.

    Again, the comparisons being made are Epic vs MW/Legendary. There is a huge gap in power between the two, it makes sense that you shouldn't be as strong wearing mostly Epics.

    If you have two legendary abilities and you want to use a MW one, you can! Yes, you'll do less melee/ult damage overall but the "punishment" is a) significantly less so than what the people are complaining about with their "purple" builds which is what this argument is framed around and b) still leaves you in a good position to complete GM1/GM2 content.

    I mean, yes someone decked out in all Legendaries is going to be stronger (this makes sense?) but lets not pretend that you're somehow completely unable to function in GM content with all MW.

    I'm not even saying the scaling is good! There's likely a much better way to accomplish what they want. I'm just questioning why this "revelation" is causing people to freak out and call the game completely broken and "oh how will they ever fix this??!" when the only thing it seems to break are op purple builds when it's clear the game was never intended for those to be used in GM content.

    That there are power gaps between epic/MW/Legendary isn't the really upsetting thing about all these findings. It's that it's impossible to tell how much more powerful one is over the other; without doing 3 days worth of tests and spreadsheets with specific variations of gear counting how many hits it takes to kill a single enemy.

    The way the damage system appears to be built makes it seem very unlikely we will ever get a comprehensive stats page for our character; because there is so much moving the numbers underneath. Even once you get to the top and your comparing two legendaries for the same slot; trying to figure out why a build with one over the other isn't obvious. If the whole averaged team gear score thing turns out to be true; even the relatively straight forward task of going into a mission with one loadout and looking at the damage numbers vs doing a 2nd mission and watching damage numbers; you'd need the same 3 other ppl all not changing gear between missions.

    Min/max-ing is a big thing for a lot of people in loot shooters; just going into a mission and feeling out qualitatively - did this build kill things good; won't cut it after awhile and makes the gear loop less exciting

    I think there is some confusion here. Power Scaling only happens pre 30. The Power Level stuff that has been discussed also only effects specific aspects of a Suit, in general the things that do not have a Slot for them.

    To be specific.
    Melee
    Ultimate
    Gear Procs [Example the Lightning or Explosion that Masterwork guns can trigger]

    It does not effect Gun damage or in most cases Gear. Interceptor may be getting some boost to some melee oriented Gear but not actually tested that.




    Who-Psyd on
  • KyanilisKyanilis Registered User regular
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    evilbob wrote: »
    Why not? Legendary is better than masterwork, so what? I don't have a single legendary, but I have tons of duplicates in masterwork. I'm making choices all the time based on inscriptions, it's just that the choices are within the same tier.

    So you get two legendary guns and two legendary bits of gear.

    Now everything else except the tiniest fraction of what drops is useless. Forever.

    I mean you can still try other gear or guns I guess, but the game will actively punish you for doing so by nerfing your melee, ult and combo significantly.

    Again, the comparisons being made are Epic vs MW/Legendary. There is a huge gap in power between the two, it makes sense that you shouldn't be as strong wearing mostly Epics.

    If you have two legendary abilities and you want to use a MW one, you can! Yes, you'll do less melee/ult damage overall but the "punishment" is a) significantly less so than what the people are complaining about with their "purple" builds which is what this argument is framed around and b) still leaves you in a good position to complete GM1/GM2 content.

    I mean, yes someone decked out in all Legendaries is going to be stronger (this makes sense?) but lets not pretend that you're somehow completely unable to function in GM content with all MW.

    I'm not even saying the scaling is good! There's likely a much better way to accomplish what they want. I'm just questioning why this "revelation" is causing people to freak out and call the game completely broken and "oh how will they ever fix this??!" when the only thing it seems to break are op purple builds when it's clear the game was never intended for those to be used in GM content.

    That there are power gaps between epic/MW/Legendary isn't the really upsetting thing about all these findings. It's that it's impossible to tell how much more powerful one is over the other; without doing 3 days worth of tests and spreadsheets with specific variations of gear counting how many hits it takes to kill a single enemy.

    The way the damage system appears to be built makes it seem very unlikely we will ever get a comprehensive stats page for our character; because there is so much moving the numbers underneath. Even once you get to the top and your comparing two legendaries for the same slot; trying to figure out why a build with one over the other isn't obvious. If the whole averaged team gear score thing turns out to be true; even the relatively straight forward task of going into a mission with one loadout and looking at the damage numbers vs doing a 2nd mission and watching damage numbers; you'd need the same 3 other ppl all not changing gear between missions.

    Min/max-ing is a big thing for a lot of people in loot shooters; just going into a mission and feeling out qualitatively - did this build kill things good; won't cut it after awhile and makes the gear loop less exciting

    I think there is some confusion here. Power Scaling only happens pre 30. The Power Level stuff that has been discussed also only effects specific aspects of a Suit, in general the things that do not have a Slot for them.

    To be specific.
    Melee
    Ultimate
    Gear Procs [Example the Lightning or Explosion that Masterwork guns can trigger]

    It does not effect Gun damage or in most cases Gear. Interceptor may be getting some boost to some melee oriented Gear but not actually tested that.

    Yeah, I think some of the problem is that melee builds (specifically Interceptor/Colossus since they have the better melee moves) in all Legendaries can destroy GM3 much more efficiently than anything else.

    I think there should be some benefit to being melee, it's certainly a lot riskier! But I think that they might be tuned a bit too high at the moment. The question people are asking is "why should I bother doing anything else when I can stack gear levels and run melee" and it's a fair point, especially right now when you only need 1 Legendary to do it, but it's a tuning issue not a system issue, imo.

  • SimpsoniaSimpsonia Registered User regular
    edited March 15
    Power scaling absolutely happens post-30. Both the level 1 defender issue, as well as the shield testing thread show that there is some sort of behind the scenes scaling going on post-30.

    You guys also missed out on the most important part of the scaling for gear level. Combo damage is also based on your gear level average. Now I don't know about you guys, but combo system and damage is pretty damn important in this game. In fact I'd say it's what sets this game apart compared to many other looter shooters. Combo damage is not also something that seems like you can just create an item slot for like you can with melee/ultimates. So at the very least it appears that your combo damage will always be some sort of average. Combos are incredibly important to both Storms and Colossus, as important as Melee is to Interceptors. So at the very least, 3/4 of the classes damage potential are highly impacted by average gear score scaling.
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    Who-Psyd wrote: »
    SeGaTai wrote: »
    Kyanilis wrote: »
    evilbob wrote: »
    Why not? Legendary is better than masterwork, so what? I don't have a single legendary, but I have tons of duplicates in masterwork. I'm making choices all the time based on inscriptions, it's just that the choices are within the same tier.

    So you get two legendary guns and two legendary bits of gear.

    Now everything else except the tiniest fraction of what drops is useless. Forever.

    I mean you can still try other gear or guns I guess, but the game will actively punish you for doing so by nerfing your melee, ult and combo significantly.

    Again, the comparisons being made are Epic vs MW/Legendary. There is a huge gap in power between the two, it makes sense that you shouldn't be as strong wearing mostly Epics.

    If you have two legendary abilities and you want to use a MW one, you can! Yes, you'll do less melee/ult damage overall but the "punishment" is a) significantly less so than what the people are complaining about with their "purple" builds which is what this argument is framed around and b) still leaves you in a good position to complete GM1/GM2 content.

    I mean, yes someone decked out in all Legendaries is going to be stronger (this makes sense?) but lets not pretend that you're somehow completely unable to function in GM content with all MW.

    I'm not even saying the scaling is good! There's likely a much better way to accomplish what they want. I'm just questioning why this "revelation" is causing people to freak out and call the game completely broken and "oh how will they ever fix this??!" when the only thing it seems to break are op purple builds when it's clear the game was never intended for those to be used in GM content.

    That there are power gaps between epic/MW/Legendary isn't the really upsetting thing about all these findings. It's that it's impossible to tell how much more powerful one is over the other; without doing 3 days worth of tests and spreadsheets with specific variations of gear counting how many hits it takes to kill a single enemy.

    The way the damage system appears to be built makes it seem very unlikely we will ever get a comprehensive stats page for our character; because there is so much moving the numbers underneath. Even once you get to the top and your comparing two legendaries for the same slot; trying to figure out why a build with one over the other isn't obvious. If the whole averaged team gear score thing turns out to be true; even the relatively straight forward task of going into a mission with one loadout and looking at the damage numbers vs doing a 2nd mission and watching damage numbers; you'd need the same 3 other ppl all not changing gear between missions.

    Min/max-ing is a big thing for a lot of people in loot shooters; just going into a mission and feeling out qualitatively - did this build kill things good; won't cut it after awhile and makes the gear loop less exciting

    I think there is some confusion here. Power Scaling only happens pre 30. The Power Level stuff that has been discussed also only effects specific aspects of a Suit, in general the things that do not have a Slot for them.

    To be specific.
    Melee
    Ultimate
    Gear Procs [Example the Lightning or Explosion that Masterwork guns can trigger]

    It does not effect Gun damage or in most cases Gear. Interceptor may be getting some boost to some melee oriented Gear but not actually tested that.

    Yeah, I think some of the problem is that melee builds (specifically Interceptor/Colossus since they have the better melee moves) in all Legendaries can destroy GM3 much more efficiently than anything else.

    I think there should be some benefit to being melee, it's certainly a lot riskier! But I think that they might be tuned a bit too high at the moment. The question people are asking is "why should I bother doing anything else when I can stack gear levels and run melee" and it's a fair point, especially right now when you only need 1 Legendary to do it, but it's a tuning issue not a system issue, imo.

    I think the other issue that's arising from this is showing the disparities in synergies/builds and item scaling. There's only two ways to get multiplicative damage boosts, item level and crit damage. Everything else has a logarithmic curve of diminishing returns. You can stack inscriptions all you want but past the first +200% it makes little difference compared to the linear scaling of the difficulties.

    Simpsonia on
  • Corporal CarlCorporal Carl Registered User regular
    Well, I joined a GM2 Quickplay match which was a legendary with my shocking/freezing/healy chunky boi, and I helped bring 3 lesser titans down (and rezzed the others about 10 times).
    3rd Titan dropped a legendary ranger component and the garanteed MW is the 300% shied charge which also provides a way to heal. :biggrin:

    PSN (PS4-Europe): Carolus-Billius
    MMMigKyanilishlprmnkyPapaganderPreacherFencingsaxspool32stopgapForar
  • MMMigMMMig Registered User regular
    Wait so they 'fixed' the naked ranger op stats thing?

    I was gonna go commando this weekend.
    :(

    l4lGvOw.png
    Witty signature comment goes here...

    wra
    spool32
  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited March 16
    Why the hell can lower level players accompany people into gm2. We of course got wiped cos someone brought a level 20 guy and then the game glitches naturally and won't load the next part of the contract. Gah why do I keep playing this broken game

    Prohass on
    Aridhol
  • BubsBubs Not Burbs ChicagoRegistered User regular
    Looking at what has happened with Anthem so far, and what happened with Destiny 1 pre-launch, I think it's pretty clear now that both games went through the same thing, where the initial plan was moving along well, and then for some reason it was nuked at the last minute by higher ups, new staff came on, old staff left, and the game was basically built up on a crash course in a drastically shortened time period.

    I mean, that explains the E3 trailers and gameplay footage, all the staff from Andromeda being moved over, Casey Hudson coming back, why the game seems so unfinished after 5+ years of development, etc. etc.

    From a business side of things, I think EA is killing Anthem this summer after the roadmap is done (they know if it ended earlier they'd get sued, and they saw what happened with Aliens: Colonial Marines when clearly marked advertisements were misleading vs. the way they skated on the ME3 lawsuit because dev interviews aren't technically advertising).

    But compare this game, its ratings, its press, the low sales (not for sure with digital, but by every publicly available metric this is far more of a bomb than a hit), to the released at the same time Apex Legends, and it's not hard to see or even understand where the money is going to be allocated going forwards.

    It's unfortunate, I really like the gameplay of the javelins, but there's just too much to fix and add here. I played around 50 or 60 hours, so I got my moneys worth, but I don't think EA did, and that means this is done. At this point I just hope it doesn't drag DA:4 down with it.

    I appreciate the thoughtfulness of all this, but it might be a bit early to be predicting the heat death of a BioWare game that’s been out for like 20 days.

    PSN: thewheelz
    FencingsaxBRIAN BLESSEDkaceypHerrCronKyanilismorgan_cokeForar
  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    edited March 16
    Also I'm pretty sure initial sales at least were quite good. I mean I don't know in this day and age of 10 million copies but below expectations, but I heard sales were ok

    Prohass on
    FencingsaxBubs
  • GorkGork Registered User regular
    I literally cannot get a fresh GM2 stonghold to save my life. People keep dropping before final bosses because they don’t have adjusted drop rates.

  • soylenthsoylenth Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    Bubs wrote: »
    Looking at what has happened with Anthem so far, and what happened with Destiny 1 pre-launch, I think it's pretty clear now that both games went through the same thing, where the initial plan was moving along well, and then for some reason it was nuked at the last minute by higher ups, new staff came on, old staff left, and the game was basically built up on a crash course in a drastically shortened time period.

    I mean, that explains the E3 trailers and gameplay footage, all the staff from Andromeda being moved over, Casey Hudson coming back, why the game seems so unfinished after 5+ years of development, etc. etc.

    From a business side of things, I think EA is killing Anthem this summer after the roadmap is done (they know if it ended earlier they'd get sued, and they saw what happened with Aliens: Colonial Marines when clearly marked advertisements were misleading vs. the way they skated on the ME3 lawsuit because dev interviews aren't technically advertising).

    But compare this game, its ratings, its press, the low sales (not for sure with digital, but by every publicly available metric this is far more of a bomb than a hit), to the released at the same time Apex Legends, and it's not hard to see or even understand where the money is going to be allocated going forwards.

    It's unfortunate, I really like the gameplay of the javelins, but there's just too much to fix and add here. I played around 50 or 60 hours, so I got my moneys worth, but I don't think EA did, and that means this is done. At this point I just hope it doesn't drag DA:4 down with it.

    I appreciate the thoughtfulness of all this, but it might be a bit early to be predicting the heat death of a BioWare game that’s been out for like 20 days.

    The urge to be the online prophet that "calls it" first has always been strong on these internets. It is an attempt to bring order to a disorderly world.

    Bubsmorgan_coke
  • Phoenix138Phoenix138 ArizonaRegistered User regular
    So far the new drop rates feel terrific.

    spool32Preacher
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