It's also just everything about how in your face Christmas is and how people don't even know what the holiday is. like Christmas Wreaths drive me crazy, people just putting them out because that's "what you do" but they have no idea what they are even symbolizing.
Advent and Christmas wreaths are constructed of evergreens to represent everlasting life brought through Jesus and the circular shape of the wreath represents God, with no beginning and no end.[23][24][25] Advent and Christmas wreaths are now a popular symbol in preparation for and to celebrate the coming of Christ, with the former being used to mark the beginning of the Christian Church’s liturgical year and both serving as décor during Advent and Christmas festivities.
like how do you hang one and have no idea what it represents.
I was reading a article about some refugees who managed to get settled in Canada last year. They got their Permanent Residency and they were so excited, they said something along the lines of "we're so happy to now be able to feel like we can celebrate Canadian holidays like Christmas with everyone else". These are people who are not Christian and had to flee their country to come here and Christmas is so in their face that they just assume it's a national holiday to everyone.
blech
I mean, you don't hang a wreath because of whatever the original religious symbolism is.
There are a bunch of reasons why Christmas (etc) being the default holidays in the US and other places is bad. "People don't understand the actual meaning of what they're doing" isn't really one of them, that's all.
what a perfect example of exactly what I'm talking about.
I get why YOU wouldn't care what the symbolism it but to me it's bananas that people don't know the history of them in a general sense.
I guess I'm not saying other people can't care, or that it should be accepted to put wreaths up, or that people shouldn't know it's based on Christmas so has religious connotations.
You kinda seemed to be ridiculing people for not knowing the specific religious story behind whatever random tradition they're doing. Which I don't agree with. Sorry if I misunderstood!
ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
I believe Islam in general recognizes Jesus as a prophet although not in the same way Christians do, so it might be a little different. I'm not sure, but because of the belief in Jesus as a prophet I wouldn't want to assume either way. I know they would need to take off for their important days too, which are different from Christianity's. So even if in-your-face Christmas and Easter aren't huge problems in Islam, either way they still probably don't get automatic vacation so that they can meaningfully observe.
I had an idea a while back that companies could offer holiday packages, as in tally up the holidays (with the help of appropriate consultants) for as many different religions as possible, and give out set days for each one. Employees could pick one each year, and that way the company could have an idea ahead of time of who needed off to plan for it, everyone gets their own holidays, and for atheists hey, free vacation! And you can ensure better coverage on those days too, for companies that don't want to or can't close their doors on those days. Win/win/win, IMO. I wonder if anyone does that kind of thing.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
I believe Islam in general recognizes Jesus as a prophet although not in the same way Christians do, so it might be a little different. I'm not sure, but because of the belief in Jesus as a prophet I wouldn't want to assume either way. I know they would need to take off for their important days too, which are different from Christianity's. So even if in-your-face Christmas and Easter aren't huge problems in Islam, either way they still probably don't get automatic vacation so that they can meaningfully observe.
I had an idea a while back that companies could offer holiday packages, as in tally up the holidays (with the help of appropriate consultants) for as many different religions as possible, and give out set days for each one. Employees could pick one each year, and that way the company could have an idea ahead of time of who needed off to plan for it, everyone gets their own holidays, and for atheists hey, free vacation! And you can ensure better coverage on those days too, for companies that don't want to or can't close their doors on those days. Win/win/win, IMO. I wonder if anyone does that kind of thing.
would be tough because Christmas is a federal holiday so if you worked it there might be weird pay implications. interesting idea though.
edit - @kime ya sorry i just meant in a more general sense
Well, I mean, wreaths are just another pagan symbol co-opted by Christians. The symbology has changed, and will continue to change. Their history is more about the general "circle of life" and ties into winter solstice ideas about rebirth.
I don't want to discount your experiences, and I wouldn't argue that a wreath, as currently used, isn't directly tied to Christmas, the christian holiday. But when I put one up, it has nothing to do with Jesus, and everything to do with not wanting a tree, and my daughter wanting something Christmassy in the apartment. I'm fine with celebrating the solstice, even as I move away from religion.
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
It seems to work better if you're in a diverse community, people seem to be usually more respectful that not everyone does the Christian thing. My kids learn all about Diwali, Ramadan, Chinese New Year, Rosh Hashanah/Yom Kippur as part of their usual public schooling. Then again I live in a pretty diverse town in Massachusetts so perhaps it's just a liberal masshole thing to be more aware of other people and cultures.
But do they get off for those days by default? I guess that's the difference. It's nice they learn about Yom Kippur, but it's still pretty disruptive if the school doesn't basically stop on those days while they stop for Christian holidays. If you are not Christian and you choose to observe your religion your education is effectively compromised in a way that it's on you to figure out how to mitigate. If my son starts having trouble in middle school algebra and then misses two days in a row and one the next week for the high holidays he's pretty fucked for quite a while. You can't send homework with him, or more accurately you can but he can't do it. The typical response is that well, you can't set everyone else back for your kid and I guess that's the whole point because he is set back for being culturally different. It's not just arts and crafts for little kids, or vacation for grownups, it's every year of education through college, especially hard on those in rigorous programs or who struggle with academics in some way, and all that entails. I don't feel like you get to claim multiculturalism while punishing kids for being multicultural.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
My town does have the high holidays off each year, though some of the other groups have lamented that their holidays are not public holidays here even though the Jewish and Christian holidays are recognized. Though the surrounding towns do not have any other holidays other than the Christian/secular ones, so I suppose we're quite different in that regard anyway.
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"Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
My town does have the high holidays off each year, though some of the other groups have lamented that their holidays are not public holidays here even though the Jewish and Christian holidays are recognized. Though the surrounding towns do not have any other holidays other than the Christian/secular ones, so I suppose we're quite different in that regard anyway.
Awesome for the high holidays, less awesome for other people's. Also passover is arguably as important as the high holidays but nearly impossible to get off and you have to bring matzah with you everywhere which... blows. Of course my kids don't have to worry about that as much with this school, and even though we pay a lot for it (arguably more than we can comfortably afford) we are so lucky to have it. Some people like lonelyahava don't even have that as an option and I think about her often when seeing my son off.
ceres on
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
Our schools have Spring Break during Good Friday/ Passover. They also have Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Lunar New Year, and Eid al-Fitr off. There's a random week off in February that may have holidays I'm not aware of (the Monday is President's day, but..), along with with Christmas/New Years week and the traditional non-religious days off.
I remember getting a lot more time off during the winter when I lived in Colorado, but not any non-Christian holidays. The schools have room to switch around the days off to accommodate more students, but it's harder than it should be outside of bigger cities.
If that's all there is my friends, then let's keep dancing
I think the main reason the schools have off on some days because half the class would be out, and not necessarily out of any recognition of any specific religion or culture.
My town is basically 1/3 Jewish 1/3 Christian 1/3 everyone else. It does mean, however, that if some kind of celebration is happening in the schools, it's including everyone. Like my kids came home with Diwali crafts in K and 1st for example. So then it made it so that Easter crafts are just one more celebration among many instead of the default celebration.
"Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
@Hardtarget I get it. Seriously.
My point is that WE choose what baggage we pass along to our kids, so think carefully if this is something that's worth that much to you to pass on.
There's a ton of crap I try to shield my kids from in terms of my personal biases/defects because I want them to be people I can't be. Make sure when you allow/disallow things, that it's a choice and not a reflex.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
@Hardtarget I get it. Seriously.
My point is that WE choose what baggage we pass along to our kids, so think carefully if this is something that's worth that much to you to pass on.
There's a ton of crap I try to shield my kids from in terms of my personal biases/defects because I want them to be people I can't be. Make sure when you allow/disallow things, that it's a choice and not a reflex.
That is definitely not always true. In fact I would say it's often not true. This isn't something you can shrug off. There are lots of things that can't and shouldn't be shrugged off. Many issues associated with being part of a marginalized group fall into that category.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I'm trying to shrug it off, it's not fair to her to be an outcast because I am trying to raise her as a minority.
But then, by shrugging it off and protecting her from that, am I costing her some of her heritage? By not keeping Passover in the house because trying to get kosher goods down here is impossible, am I hurting her?
But telling daycare that she doesn't eat pork, am I opening her up to a lifetime of being teased? But if I let her eat pork, am I taking away a part of her identity?
It's harder to just "shrug it off" and still not feel guilty about it in some way.
@Hardtarget I get it. Seriously.
My point is that WE choose what baggage we pass along to our kids, so think carefully if this is something that's worth that much to you to pass on.
There's a ton of crap I try to shield my kids from in terms of my personal biases/defects because I want them to be people I can't be. Make sure when you allow/disallow things, that it's a choice and not a reflex.
That is definitely not always true. In fact I would say it's often not true. This isn't something you can shrug off. There are lots of things that can't and shouldn't be shrugged off. Many issues associated with being part of a marginalized group fall into that category.
Baggage carries valuable things too. I'm just saying make sure things like these are conscious choices and not unconscious reflex of just continuing what you currently do.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
@Hardtarget I get it. Seriously.
My point is that WE choose what baggage we pass along to our kids, so think carefully if this is something that's worth that much to you to pass on.
There's a ton of crap I try to shield my kids from in terms of my personal biases/defects because I want them to be people I can't be. Make sure when you allow/disallow things, that it's a choice and not a reflex.
That is definitely not always true. In fact I would say it's often not true. This isn't something you can shrug off. There are lots of things that can't and shouldn't be shrugged off. Many issues associated with being part of a marginalized group fall into that category.
Baggage carries valuable things too. I'm just saying make sure things like these are conscious choices and not unconscious reflex of just continuing what you currently do.
Like, continuing to... be Jewish? Because that's what we're talking about here: being who I am, who my family is, with our religious heritage and culture. That is the "choice" you are referring to. You aren't saying the word, you're framing it as baggage, but that's what you're doing right now.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
@Hardtarget I get it. Seriously.
My point is that WE choose what baggage we pass along to our kids, so think carefully if this is something that's worth that much to you to pass on.
There's a ton of crap I try to shield my kids from in terms of my personal biases/defects because I want them to be people I can't be. Make sure when you allow/disallow things, that it's a choice and not a reflex.
That is definitely not always true. In fact I would say it's often not true. This isn't something you can shrug off. There are lots of things that can't and shouldn't be shrugged off. Many issues associated with being part of a marginalized group fall into that category.
Baggage carries valuable things too. I'm just saying make sure things like these are conscious choices and not unconscious reflex of just continuing what you currently do.
Like, continuing to... be Jewish? Because that's what we're talking about here: being who I am, who my family is, with our religious heritage and culture. That is the "choice" you are referring to. You aren't saying the word, you're framing it as baggage, but that's what you're doing right now.
You always choose what you believe, how seriously you take it and how much you share with others.
There are plenty of learned behaviors relating to most things that may or may not make sense to instill in your kids.
Just like many depression era folks didn't necessarily pass on food hoarding and relentless repair/saving to their kids, so too do we all have choices regarding which parts of our own behaviors to model and emphasize to our kids.
If you assume positive intent, many things are harmless fun. If you assume malicious, they're an underhanded attack on your very being.
I don't know what the answers are as I have not lived any of your lives, but I have lived through pain and change. I'm just saying to examine what parts are for passing forward, and what might be learned defensive behaviors that may not be necessary in your new community.
I'll just drop it there as I think people are assuming I'm saying "don't be Jewish" or "deal with it", which I am not trying to say.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
Do we have any Muslim posters living in America? I wonder if they feel similarly. It's certainly not something I've ever thought that hard of, short of sitcoms treating it like a punchline.
Thanks to those of you who've posted about it, I really appreciate the little bit of experience I've been able to share through your posting.
I'm culturally Muslim but religiously atheist immigrant to USA (came here as a teenager in the 90s due to civil war in the old country and real threat if being ethnically cleansed).
When i was a refugee in Spain they were super Catholic (no 1st amendment, every day i had a class in elementary school called religion, and by religion they mean Catholicism) and it used to really bother me. Perhaps because at the same time, in the old country, Catholics were gang raping my cousin and exiling my grandparents out of their house and marching them across a mine field to clear it for their soldiers).
In the US it hasn't been as explicit.
My American burn wife is a non-observant Catholic (her family fell off the wagon during all the priest molestation scandals) but Xmas and Easter and Santa are very important to her, so we do all of it with our kids.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
@Hardtarget I get it. Seriously.
My point is that WE choose what baggage we pass along to our kids, so think carefully if this is something that's worth that much to you to pass on.
There's a ton of crap I try to shield my kids from in terms of my personal biases/defects because I want them to be people I can't be. Make sure when you allow/disallow things, that it's a choice and not a reflex.
That is definitely not always true. In fact I would say it's often not true. This isn't something you can shrug off. There are lots of things that can't and shouldn't be shrugged off. Many issues associated with being part of a marginalized group fall into that category.
Baggage carries valuable things too. I'm just saying make sure things like these are conscious choices and not unconscious reflex of just continuing what you currently do.
Like, continuing to... be Jewish? Because that's what we're talking about here: being who I am, who my family is, with our religious heritage and culture. That is the "choice" you are referring to. You aren't saying the word, you're framing it as baggage, but that's what you're doing right now.
You always choose what you believe, how seriously you take it and how much you share with others.
There are plenty of learned behaviors relating to most things that may or may not make sense to instill in your kids.
Just like many depression era folks didn't necessarily pass on food hoarding and relentless repair/saving to their kids, so too do we all have choices regarding which parts of our own behaviors to model and emphasize to our kids.
If you assume positive intent, many things are harmless fun. If you assume malicious, they're an underhanded attack on your very being.
I don't know what the answers are as I have not lived any of your lives, but I have lived through pain and change. I'm just saying to examine what parts are for passing forward, and what might be learned defensive behaviors that may not be necessary in your new community.
I'll just drop it there as I think people are assuming I'm saying "don't be Jewish" or "deal with it", which I am not trying to say.
Yeah I will freely admit I harbor a lot of resentment, but I don't really want my kids to know that. And he doesn't need to know all that stuff right now, he's 5. While I get very defensive about it with other people, I have no intention of letting him see it from me. I want him to enjoy things the way I didn't get to as a kid. I don't think my parents really thought of it as any kind of problem, I was the one upset by it as a kid. I gave myself hives doing what I could to make sure he had just the best Purim. While I don't necessarily think it's malicious, in some ways the lack of interest or care and the fact that so many people don't ever bother with the concept that I might want to observe my holidays with my family. It is so unimportant that it's not even worth bothering with, especially when I'm sometimes told things like "if you don't like it move to Israel" when I try to bring it up as an issue.
In my experience the bigger problem is school, because you will get some teachers who will either make you use your one absence (it's three days) or purposefully schedule a test or something else that's very important for those days. That's more of a problem once you hit college and those things create a situation that can drop you entire grade levels and you can either observe the high holidays or pass your class.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
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lonelyahavaCall me Ahava ~~She/Her~~Move to New ZealandRegistered Userregular
I was told my senior year of high school that I was not going to be allowed to graduate because I had absences for the Holy Days. The school district that I had been in for 9 full years and every single year we had this fight.
Of course I just realized I'm being a doofus, after all Christmas means usually a week-long break for the Christians, meanwhile Hanukkah is a week-long holiday that not even my local school district recognizes. Plus I'm forgetting other holidays like Purim or Sukkot.
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
ugh Hanukkah. Might as well keep the rant going:
Hanukkah isn't important! We don't need days off for it, it is a nothing holiday that is just a fun thing. It is absolutely not like Christmas at all and the fact that society equates it to "Christmas, but for Jews" is the WORST.
My point is that WE choose what baggage we pass along to our kids, so think carefully if this is something that's worth that much to you to pass on.
There's a ton of crap I try to shield my kids from in terms of my personal biases/defects because I want them to be people I can't be. Make sure when you allow/disallow things, that it's a choice and not a reflex.
also yikes on this reply. I'm not choosing to be Jewish. @ceres is more eloquent than me but this is the sort of thing that bums me out.
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
By not keeping Passover in the house because trying to get kosher goods down here is impossible, am I hurting her?
But telling daycare that she doesn't eat pork, am I opening her up to a lifetime of being teased? But if I let her eat pork, am I taking away a part of her identity?
brutal post.
The best part of being Jewish, especially reform or conservative, is that it's a ethnoreligion. You can just choose the parts that work for you. We don't keep kosher in the house but we don't eat pork in the house. That doesn't stop me from ordering some crispy bacon at a diner every once in a while.
We absolutely make sure we have a seder every year at passover whether that means going over to a cousin's house or simply having a small one ourselves. There are so many cultural touchstones that are so great to pass on. Isaac still talks about how great it was to find the afikomen and get a toy car after he found it, etc. You don't have to make it fancy, get some matzos and get a children's hagaddah and go through the process, it's fun.
I have never once worried about my kids getting teased if they don't bring a ham sandwich to school, there's only so much I am willing to worry about. Worldwide not eating pork is quite common due to the gigantic muslim community that is pretty much everywhere.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
edited April 2019
Yeah Hanukkah is not important. Passover is a more appropriate analogy to something that is important and really does needs that time. I remember when I was a kid I told my mom that I wanted to eat matzah over passover instead of bread even in my lunches and she was like 'uh... okay...' and then after three days of looks and pointing and questions from other kids I kind of gave up. It's something I don't have to worry about right now because of his current school, he not only gets off all that time but spring break starts a solid week beforehand so families can prepare their houses. Some of the families I know have a no-food-outside-these-two-rooms-ever-all-year policy just to make it a little less stressful. I'm not that good and my house will still be a mess but I do my best.
I was raised Conservative, but I have been trending toward Orthodox with outreach, which generally means Orthodox but otherwise abandoning labels and recognizing that Jews are Jewish and being Reform or Conservative or Reconstructionist does not make someone less Jewish, and Jews should always be welcome here whatever anyone thinks of it. That's how my community is and I love it, and that's what I want to pass on to my kids.. that one way or another we're all part of a really big family, and that's beautiful. I wasn't raised with observance and learning is a Process, but I've been very happy in the changes I've managed to make as I'm moved to make them. I guess what gets to me is that Judaism isn't my baggage, it's the idea that it shouldn't be a big deal to leave it all behind in favor of a very Christian idea of what it means to be secular if I or my kids want to like.. graduate.
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And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
ugh Hanukkah. Might as well keep the rant going:
Hanukkah isn't important! We don't need days off for it, it is a nothing holiday that is just a fun thing. It is absolutely not like Christmas at all and the fact that society equates it to "Christmas, but for Jews" is the WORST.
Well, I was thinking in terms of Holidays that Lonelyahava might have taken off in high school not just the 3 days that I had mentioned. So I looked up which holidays are official state holidays for Israel: In addition to Hanukkah being a week-long holiday, Sukkot is also a week-long holiday there. I know they're not as important as the High Holidays or Passover, but they're important enough that Israel takes them off and perhaps Ahava did. Don't know, I just didn't want to ignore her (and your!) frustration that even when accommodations are made--such as in my school district--they're still not enough compared to what the dominant culture gets.
EDIT: Oh, and now I realize I'm a doofus x2. The website I looked at (https://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/israel/2019) has days of "observance" listed as well as local holidays so they're not all national holidays. Just the first day of the week-long holidays are national holidays.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
Israel is kind of special because they only need to do one day. It's generally recognized by a great many people that traditionally you do the first two in the diaspora. And yep, Sukkot is another one because you're meant to eat as many meals as you can in a sukkah. At his school he doesn't get jack for Hanukkah, they go every single day. Families can go to school with them sometimes if they want to and can, though.
And it seems like all is dying, and would leave the world to mourn
you're meant to eat as many meals as you can in a sukkah.
...
You know, a lot of families near me host open open houses (tents) during Sukkot, I really should go and get to know my Jewish neighbors better this year.
"Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
you're meant to eat as many meals as you can in a sukkah.
...
You know, a lot of families near me host open open houses (tents) during Sukkot, I really should go and get to know my Jewish neighbors better this year.
I think its less eat as much food as possible, and more make an effort to eat all of your normal meals in the sukkah.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Oh, right. What Ceres said makes more sense now. Still, I should visit my neighbor's sukkah, they're always very friendly during the season and it'll be the perfect time of autumn this year right when the trees should be bright colors.
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
Oh, right. What Ceres said makes more sense now. Still, I should visit my neighbor's sukkah, they're always very friendly during the season and it'll be the perfect time of autumn this year right when the trees should be bright colors.
Oh, right. What Ceres said makes more sense now. Still, I should visit my neighbor's sukkah, they're always very friendly during the season and it'll be the perfect time of autumn this year right when the trees should be bright colors.
bring a ham over
Make sure you're wearing a polo shirt too, really send the right message.
I don't think any religious holidays should be recognized on a state or federal level. If someone wants to have their kids out for a religious holiday they can be excused and given make-up work. They shouldn't be penalized for it but I have never understood the need to close schools or anything else for that matter.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
I don't think any religious holidays should be recognized on a state or federal level. If someone wants to have their kids out for a religious holiday they can be excused and given make-up work. They shouldn't be penalized for it but I have never understood the need to close schools or anything else for that matter.
I mean, it would be better for companies to just provide an extra ~10 floating paid days off, but most companies balk enough at the little amount of time they are already required to give off.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
That goes back to our incredibly shit corporate overlords. Most religions only have a few days that they would really want off anyways. But no we can't let the poor forget their place for even one second.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
My daughter learned how to say fork today, but ofc she can't pronounce the r yet, so instead she sat on my lap saying fuck over and over. I was trying so hard not to laugh.
Turns out she may not be saying fork, so we've decided to re-evaluate what we are watching and saying around her. And trying really hard to not laugh when she says it all the time, hoping she'll get tired of saying it.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
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I mean, you don't hang a wreath because of whatever the original religious symbolism is.
There are a bunch of reasons why Christmas (etc) being the default holidays in the US and other places is bad. "People don't understand the actual meaning of what they're doing" isn't really one of them, that's all.
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I get why YOU wouldn't care what the symbolism it but to me it's bananas that people don't know the history of them in a general sense.
I guess I'm not saying other people can't care, or that it should be accepted to put wreaths up, or that people shouldn't know it's based on Christmas so has religious connotations.
You kinda seemed to be ridiculing people for not knowing the specific religious story behind whatever random tradition they're doing. Which I don't agree with. Sorry if I misunderstood!
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I had an idea a while back that companies could offer holiday packages, as in tally up the holidays (with the help of appropriate consultants) for as many different religions as possible, and give out set days for each one. Employees could pick one each year, and that way the company could have an idea ahead of time of who needed off to plan for it, everyone gets their own holidays, and for atheists hey, free vacation! And you can ensure better coverage on those days too, for companies that don't want to or can't close their doors on those days. Win/win/win, IMO. I wonder if anyone does that kind of thing.
would be tough because Christmas is a federal holiday so if you worked it there might be weird pay implications. interesting idea though.
edit - @kime ya sorry i just meant in a more general sense
I don't want to discount your experiences, and I wouldn't argue that a wreath, as currently used, isn't directly tied to Christmas, the christian holiday. But when I put one up, it has nothing to do with Jesus, and everything to do with not wanting a tree, and my daughter wanting something Christmassy in the apartment. I'm fine with celebrating the solstice, even as I move away from religion.
But do they get off for those days by default? I guess that's the difference. It's nice they learn about Yom Kippur, but it's still pretty disruptive if the school doesn't basically stop on those days while they stop for Christian holidays. If you are not Christian and you choose to observe your religion your education is effectively compromised in a way that it's on you to figure out how to mitigate. If my son starts having trouble in middle school algebra and then misses two days in a row and one the next week for the high holidays he's pretty fucked for quite a while. You can't send homework with him, or more accurately you can but he can't do it. The typical response is that well, you can't set everyone else back for your kid and I guess that's the whole point because he is set back for being culturally different. It's not just arts and crafts for little kids, or vacation for grownups, it's every year of education through college, especially hard on those in rigorous programs or who struggle with academics in some way, and all that entails. I don't feel like you get to claim multiculturalism while punishing kids for being multicultural.
Awesome for the high holidays, less awesome for other people's. Also passover is arguably as important as the high holidays but nearly impossible to get off and you have to bring matzah with you everywhere which... blows. Of course my kids don't have to worry about that as much with this school, and even though we pay a lot for it (arguably more than we can comfortably afford) we are so lucky to have it. Some people like lonelyahava don't even have that as an option and I think about her often when seeing my son off.
I remember getting a lot more time off during the winter when I lived in Colorado, but not any non-Christian holidays. The schools have room to switch around the days off to accommodate more students, but it's harder than it should be outside of bigger cities.
My town is basically 1/3 Jewish 1/3 Christian 1/3 everyone else. It does mean, however, that if some kind of celebration is happening in the schools, it's including everyone. Like my kids came home with Diwali crafts in K and 1st for example. So then it made it so that Easter crafts are just one more celebration among many instead of the default celebration.
My point is that WE choose what baggage we pass along to our kids, so think carefully if this is something that's worth that much to you to pass on.
There's a ton of crap I try to shield my kids from in terms of my personal biases/defects because I want them to be people I can't be. Make sure when you allow/disallow things, that it's a choice and not a reflex.
That is definitely not always true. In fact I would say it's often not true. This isn't something you can shrug off. There are lots of things that can't and shouldn't be shrugged off. Many issues associated with being part of a marginalized group fall into that category.
But then, by shrugging it off and protecting her from that, am I costing her some of her heritage? By not keeping Passover in the house because trying to get kosher goods down here is impossible, am I hurting her?
But telling daycare that she doesn't eat pork, am I opening her up to a lifetime of being teased? But if I let her eat pork, am I taking away a part of her identity?
It's harder to just "shrug it off" and still not feel guilty about it in some way.
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But there's a psychological factor that's just really hard to convey to anybody who isn't already dealing with it.
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Baggage carries valuable things too. I'm just saying make sure things like these are conscious choices and not unconscious reflex of just continuing what you currently do.
Like, continuing to... be Jewish? Because that's what we're talking about here: being who I am, who my family is, with our religious heritage and culture. That is the "choice" you are referring to. You aren't saying the word, you're framing it as baggage, but that's what you're doing right now.
You always choose what you believe, how seriously you take it and how much you share with others.
There are plenty of learned behaviors relating to most things that may or may not make sense to instill in your kids.
Just like many depression era folks didn't necessarily pass on food hoarding and relentless repair/saving to their kids, so too do we all have choices regarding which parts of our own behaviors to model and emphasize to our kids.
If you assume positive intent, many things are harmless fun. If you assume malicious, they're an underhanded attack on your very being.
I don't know what the answers are as I have not lived any of your lives, but I have lived through pain and change. I'm just saying to examine what parts are for passing forward, and what might be learned defensive behaviors that may not be necessary in your new community.
I'll just drop it there as I think people are assuming I'm saying "don't be Jewish" or "deal with it", which I am not trying to say.
I'm culturally Muslim but religiously atheist immigrant to USA (came here as a teenager in the 90s due to civil war in the old country and real threat if being ethnically cleansed).
When i was a refugee in Spain they were super Catholic (no 1st amendment, every day i had a class in elementary school called religion, and by religion they mean Catholicism) and it used to really bother me. Perhaps because at the same time, in the old country, Catholics were gang raping my cousin and exiling my grandparents out of their house and marching them across a mine field to clear it for their soldiers).
In the US it hasn't been as explicit.
My American burn wife is a non-observant Catholic (her family fell off the wagon during all the priest molestation scandals) but Xmas and Easter and Santa are very important to her, so we do all of it with our kids.
Yeah I will freely admit I harbor a lot of resentment, but I don't really want my kids to know that. And he doesn't need to know all that stuff right now, he's 5. While I get very defensive about it with other people, I have no intention of letting him see it from me. I want him to enjoy things the way I didn't get to as a kid. I don't think my parents really thought of it as any kind of problem, I was the one upset by it as a kid. I gave myself hives doing what I could to make sure he had just the best Purim. While I don't necessarily think it's malicious, in some ways the lack of interest or care and the fact that so many people don't ever bother with the concept that I might want to observe my holidays with my family. It is so unimportant that it's not even worth bothering with, especially when I'm sometimes told things like "if you don't like it move to Israel" when I try to bring it up as an issue.
In my experience the bigger problem is school, because you will get some teachers who will either make you use your one absence (it's three days) or purposefully schedule a test or something else that's very important for those days. That's more of a problem once you hit college and those things create a situation that can drop you entire grade levels and you can either observe the high holidays or pass your class.
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Religion be whack, yo.
Seriously though, my school had a 5-day missed, insta-fail policy. Unless you had a very good or medical excuse, your butt had to be at class.
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Hanukkah isn't important! We don't need days off for it, it is a nothing holiday that is just a fun thing. It is absolutely not like Christmas at all and the fact that society equates it to "Christmas, but for Jews" is the WORST.
also yikes on this reply. I'm not choosing to be Jewish. @ceres is more eloquent than me but this is the sort of thing that bums me out.
The best part of being Jewish, especially reform or conservative, is that it's a ethnoreligion. You can just choose the parts that work for you. We don't keep kosher in the house but we don't eat pork in the house. That doesn't stop me from ordering some crispy bacon at a diner every once in a while.
We absolutely make sure we have a seder every year at passover whether that means going over to a cousin's house or simply having a small one ourselves. There are so many cultural touchstones that are so great to pass on. Isaac still talks about how great it was to find the afikomen and get a toy car after he found it, etc. You don't have to make it fancy, get some matzos and get a children's hagaddah and go through the process, it's fun.
I have never once worried about my kids getting teased if they don't bring a ham sandwich to school, there's only so much I am willing to worry about. Worldwide not eating pork is quite common due to the gigantic muslim community that is pretty much everywhere.
I was raised Conservative, but I have been trending toward Orthodox with outreach, which generally means Orthodox but otherwise abandoning labels and recognizing that Jews are Jewish and being Reform or Conservative or Reconstructionist does not make someone less Jewish, and Jews should always be welcome here whatever anyone thinks of it. That's how my community is and I love it, and that's what I want to pass on to my kids.. that one way or another we're all part of a really big family, and that's beautiful. I wasn't raised with observance and learning is a Process, but I've been very happy in the changes I've managed to make as I'm moved to make them. I guess what gets to me is that Judaism isn't my baggage, it's the idea that it shouldn't be a big deal to leave it all behind in favor of a very Christian idea of what it means to be secular if I or my kids want to like.. graduate.
Well, I was thinking in terms of Holidays that Lonelyahava might have taken off in high school not just the 3 days that I had mentioned. So I looked up which holidays are official state holidays for Israel: In addition to Hanukkah being a week-long holiday, Sukkot is also a week-long holiday there. I know they're not as important as the High Holidays or Passover, but they're important enough that Israel takes them off and perhaps Ahava did. Don't know, I just didn't want to ignore her (and your!) frustration that even when accommodations are made--such as in my school district--they're still not enough compared to what the dominant culture gets.
EDIT: Oh, and now I realize I'm a doofus x2. The website I looked at (https://www.timeanddate.com/holidays/israel/2019) has days of "observance" listed as well as local holidays so they're not all national holidays. Just the first day of the week-long holidays are national holidays.
...
You know, a lot of families near me host open open houses (tents) during Sukkot, I really should go and get to know my Jewish neighbors better this year.
I think its less eat as much food as possible, and more make an effort to eat all of your normal meals in the sukkah.
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bring a ham over
Make sure you're wearing a polo shirt too, really send the right message.
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I mean, it would be better for companies to just provide an extra ~10 floating paid days off, but most companies balk enough at the little amount of time they are already required to give off.
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Turns out she may not be saying fork, so we've decided to re-evaluate what we are watching and saying around her. And trying really hard to not laugh when she says it all the time, hoping she'll get tired of saying it.
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