Section 31 is just like the Borg: an interesting concept driven into the ground by overuse and flat characterization.
You know what would be interesting? Section 31 doing something against Federation philosophy that is otherwise "good." Like, saving one of those pre-warp civilizations the Prime Directive consigns to extinction. Or making sure that, on a world divided between two nations, warp/transporters/replicators is invented by the representative democracy with universal suffrage and not the absolute monarchy built by slave labor.
Having them always be the Hollywood version of realpolitik is boring.
Section 31 is just like the Borg: an interesting concept driven into the ground by overuse and flat characterization.
You know what would be interesting? Section 31 doing something against Federation philosophy that is otherwise "good." Like, saving one of those pre-warp civilizations the Prime Directive consigns to extinction. Or making sure that, on a world divided between two nations, warp/transporters/replicators is invented by the representative democracy with universal suffrage and not the absolute monarchy built by slave labor.
Having them always be the Hollywood version of realpolitik is boring.
Honestly, I'd prefer keeping Section 31 as a "hard people making hard choices" cautionary tale, instead of making them sympathetic. What they do is seek the safety of the Federation, but by taking shortcuts that get people killed and don't even achieve their ends. Yes, it's only the one story, but it's an important one. If you want to do a breaking the Prime Directive story, make it a rogue admiral or something. They're always up to something.
On the subject of meme Trek vs real Trek, the Prime Directive: There are two parts to the Prime Directive; non-interference in pre-warp civilizations, and non-interference with other civilizations. Most of the times the Prime Directive was mentioned in TNG, it was in regards to the Klingon Empire or something. (Bonus headcanon: the Prime Directive is mostly for captains. There's an entire group within the Federation that specifically acts to prevent extinction of pre-warp civilizations, using minimally-intrusive methods. Doesn't help much if the planet's about to explode, but as long as they have a couple years to work, they have a surprisingly good success rate.)
It's like if the Prime Directive was the Hippocratic Oath.
In TOS they go around saving people's lives and always understand that some unpleasant side effects are preferable to just letting the patient die unnecessarily. Occasionally they come across some people fucked up by horrible medical experiments to remind you why they have rules.
Then later everyone gets really concerned about this "first do no harm" thing and start questioning whether they should amputate a gangrenous limb. I mean sure it would save the guy but cutting his leg off would be doing harm and we can't have that.
Then eventually it's maybe God's the Universe's plan that this plague survives instead of all these people so lets just abandon medicine entirely.
Sorry but one last thing about Crusade, lady doctor walks in to the captain's office and he's just nonchalantly watching hard core alien porn that he found on someone's space AOL floppy disk.
Sorry but one last thing about Crusade, lady doctor walks in to the captain's office and he's just nonchalantly watching hard core alien porn that he found on someone's space AOL floppy disk.
That's someone else's alien porn though. The archaeologist guy from the shady-as-fuck alien-world-looter corporation.
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Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
edited May 2019
One thing I wasn't expecting from farscape is humanizing the weird BDSM lizardman bad guy and actually doing a pretty good job of it. One thing I'll say, the show does employ a lot of nuance. Usually.
Edit: also, holy cow the makeup and practicals in this show continue to be an absolute joy
Section 31 is just like the Borg: an interesting concept driven into the ground by overuse and flat characterization.
You know what would be interesting? Section 31 doing something against Federation philosophy that is otherwise "good." Like, saving one of those pre-warp civilizations the Prime Directive consigns to extinction. Or making sure that, on a world divided between two nations, warp/transporters/replicators is invented by the representative democracy with universal suffrage and not the absolute monarchy built by slave labor.
Having them always be the Hollywood version of realpolitik is boring.
Honestly, I'd prefer keeping Section 31 as a "hard people making hard choices" cautionary tale, instead of making them sympathetic. What they do is seek the safety of the Federation, but by taking shortcuts that get people killed and don't even achieve their ends. Yes, it's only the one story, but it's an important one. If you want to do a breaking the Prime Directive story, make it a rogue admiral or something. They're always up to something.
On the subject of meme Trek vs real Trek, the Prime Directive: There are two parts to the Prime Directive; non-interference in pre-warp civilizations, and non-interference with other civilizations. Most of the times the Prime Directive was mentioned in TNG, it was in regards to the Klingon Empire or something. (Bonus headcanon: the Prime Directive is mostly for captains. There's an entire group within the Federation that specifically acts to prevent extinction of pre-warp civilizations, using minimally-intrusive methods. Doesn't help much if the planet's about to explode, but as long as they have a couple years to work, they have a surprisingly good success rate.)
oh my god I love this. is this from some of the books or something
I would kill for an actual episode where the Enterprise discovers a planet that is in danger, and calls the Federation higher-ups about it, who dispatch that team to deal with it. TNG had loads of episodes about random people getting sent to the Enterprise to help with some sensitive mission, having one that's all about people who do this sort of stuff would've been lovely.
Section 31 is just like the Borg: an interesting concept driven into the ground by overuse and flat characterization.
You know what would be interesting? Section 31 doing something against Federation philosophy that is otherwise "good." Like, saving one of those pre-warp civilizations the Prime Directive consigns to extinction. Or making sure that, on a world divided between two nations, warp/transporters/replicators is invented by the representative democracy with universal suffrage and not the absolute monarchy built by slave labor.
Having them always be the Hollywood version of realpolitik is boring.
Honestly, I'd prefer keeping Section 31 as a "hard people making hard choices" cautionary tale, instead of making them sympathetic. What they do is seek the safety of the Federation, but by taking shortcuts that get people killed and don't even achieve their ends. Yes, it's only the one story, but it's an important one. If you want to do a breaking the Prime Directive story, make it a rogue admiral or something. They're always up to something.
On the subject of meme Trek vs real Trek, the Prime Directive: There are two parts to the Prime Directive; non-interference in pre-warp civilizations, and non-interference with other civilizations. Most of the times the Prime Directive was mentioned in TNG, it was in regards to the Klingon Empire or something. (Bonus headcanon: the Prime Directive is mostly for captains. There's an entire group within the Federation that specifically acts to prevent extinction of pre-warp civilizations, using minimally-intrusive methods. Doesn't help much if the planet's about to explode, but as long as they have a couple years to work, they have a surprisingly good success rate.)
oh my god I love this. is this from some of the books or something
I would kill for an actual episode where the Enterprise discovers a planet that is in danger, and calls the Federation higher-ups about it, who dispatch that team to deal with it. TNG had loads of episodes about random people getting sent to the Enterprise to help with some sensitive mission, having one that's all about people who do this sort of stuff would've been lovely.
Nope, it's just headcanon. It comes from putting the two sections of the Prime Directive on equal footing. You don't want Captain Whomever screwing around with the Klingon Empire, but the Federation still negotiates and makes treaties and such. Non-interference with other civilizations is not a moral absolute, it's just not Starfleet's job. Similarly, you don't want them to screw around with a pre-warp civilization, because even if done with good intentions, they're probably going to break something important, because they don't have the time or training needed to do this right. (This would be similar to having the Coast Guard interfere with an un-contacted indigenous people, or making foreign policy. Even if what they did was a good thing, it's still A Problem.)
One thing I wasn't expecting from farscape is humanizing the weird BDSM lizardman bad guy and actually doing a pretty good job of it. One thing I'll say, the show does employ a lot of nuance. Usually.
Edit: also, holy cow the makeup and practicals in this show continue to be an absolute joy
I know, right? Practical effects hold up great in the transition to HD!
GNU Terry Pratchett
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Hit me up on BoardGameArena! User: Loaded D1
Section 31 is just like the Borg: an interesting concept driven into the ground by overuse and flat characterization.
You know what would be interesting? Section 31 doing something against Federation philosophy that is otherwise "good." Like, saving one of those pre-warp civilizations the Prime Directive consigns to extinction. Or making sure that, on a world divided between two nations, warp/transporters/replicators is invented by the representative democracy with universal suffrage and not the absolute monarchy built by slave labor.
Having them always be the Hollywood version of realpolitik is boring.
Post DS9 Trek writers have forgotten that Section 31 itself does not want anyone to know about its existence or of any possible connections to Starfleet.
Section 31 is just like the Borg: an interesting concept driven into the ground by overuse and flat characterization.
You know what would be interesting? Section 31 doing something against Federation philosophy that is otherwise "good." Like, saving one of those pre-warp civilizations the Prime Directive consigns to extinction. Or making sure that, on a world divided between two nations, warp/transporters/replicators is invented by the representative democracy with universal suffrage and not the absolute monarchy built by slave labor.
Having them always be the Hollywood version of realpolitik is boring.
Post DS9 Trek writers have forgotten that Section 31 itself does not want anyone to know about its existence or of any possible connections to Starfleet.
That's because all post DS9 trek have been prequils set before S31 disconnected itself from the official command structure of the federation.
Section 31 is just like the Borg: an interesting concept driven into the ground by overuse and flat characterization.
You know what would be interesting? Section 31 doing something against Federation philosophy that is otherwise "good." Like, saving one of those pre-warp civilizations the Prime Directive consigns to extinction. Or making sure that, on a world divided between two nations, warp/transporters/replicators is invented by the representative democracy with universal suffrage and not the absolute monarchy built by slave labor.
Having them always be the Hollywood version of realpolitik is boring.
Post DS9 Trek writers have forgotten that Section 31 itself does not want anyone to know about its existence or of any possible connections to Starfleet.
That's because all post DS9 trek have been prequils set before S31 disconnected itself from the official command structure of the federation.
The Federation would have to be a horrible police state that constantly hides disasters it causes from the public if no one in the 24th century knows about Section 31 and how it created an AI that took over a fleet of ships, murdered thousands of Starfleet officers, and almost destroyed all sapient life in the galaxy.
Section 31 is just like the Borg: an interesting concept driven into the ground by overuse and flat characterization.
You know what would be interesting? Section 31 doing something against Federation philosophy that is otherwise "good." Like, saving one of those pre-warp civilizations the Prime Directive consigns to extinction. Or making sure that, on a world divided between two nations, warp/transporters/replicators is invented by the representative democracy with universal suffrage and not the absolute monarchy built by slave labor.
Having them always be the Hollywood version of realpolitik is boring.
Post DS9 Trek writers have forgotten that Section 31 itself does not want anyone to know about its existence or of any possible connections to Starfleet.
That's because all post DS9 trek have been prequils set before S31 disconnected itself from the official command structure of the federation.
Don't they say Section 31 have been secret since the very beginning in DS9?
Essentially Contact out of The Culture but less advanced, which is very suitable.
I imagine that the S31 that the Federation would actually want would be like, the Federation Diplomatic Corps? Like we don't have spies and intelligence agencies but we do have a very well informed Starfleet Diplomatic Arm who pass what they might hear to the Federation Council.
All governments apparently have spies. There was an episode that mentioned Klingon spies even. That whole thing is weird to me because they didn't undergo surgery or something, they were just Klingon dudes gather intel.
All governments apparently have spies. There was an episode that mentioned Klingon spies even. That whole thing is weird to me because they didn't undergo surgery or something, they were just Klingon dudes gather intel.
Well, they were Klingons who were spies/assassins but were posing as random traders or something. That's basically how spies work now.
Section 31 is just like the Borg: an interesting concept driven into the ground by overuse and flat characterization.
You know what would be interesting? Section 31 doing something against Federation philosophy that is otherwise "good." Like, saving one of those pre-warp civilizations the Prime Directive consigns to extinction. Or making sure that, on a world divided between two nations, warp/transporters/replicators is invented by the representative democracy with universal suffrage and not the absolute monarchy built by slave labor.
Having them always be the Hollywood version of realpolitik is boring.
Post DS9 Trek writers have forgotten that Section 31 itself does not want anyone to know about its existence or of any possible connections to Starfleet.
That's because all post DS9 trek have been prequils set before S31 disconnected itself from the official command structure of the federation.
Don't they say Section 31 have been secret since the very beginning in DS9?
They say something about it being part of the original Federation charter (implying its existence is actually a matter of record somewhere) I don't remember them going into more detail than that. In any case the organisation is 300 years old at this point. I know it's not quite the same thing but I don't know what various government organisations were called in 1719, it's more than enough time for it to be lost to general knowledge if it's been underground since the events of discovery.
While I would love to see the kinds of conflicts that the Culture would have with the Federation on a deep nerd level, I wonder whether both of those concepts don't have bigger fish to fry in regards to their position in modern culture.
As in, much of humanity has yet to be sold on the premises they both share and I feel like a project involving either of those approaches towards post-scarcity utopia is still best served justifying its own value to as wide an audience as possible over getting into the nitty-gritty between them.
Granted, the Culture is fundamentally evangelical in a way that the Federation is not and I think that's a trait that makes it a powerful social tool, but I feel like the Federation's prime directive is a step in respect towards other cultures that you need to take before you can safely go about seeing things with a Culture-type worldview.
Like, the Federation is based on a society that is advanced but not so much more advanced than the rest of the galaxy it interacts with that it can have the kind of certainty in the universality of the values it aims to project that living without the prime directive would entail. Meanwhile the Culture has the experience and statistics to show that what they do is "the right thing" in the long term.
Essentially Contact out of The Culture but less advanced, which is very suitable.
I imagine that the S31 that the Federation would actually want would be like, the Federation Diplomatic Corps? Like we don't have spies and intelligence agencies but we do have a very well informed Starfleet Diplomatic Arm who pass what they might hear to the Federation Council.
I think Contact and whatever the Federation does would have a fundamentally different premise. Contact is taking civilizations, and molding them in specific ways. The Federation would restrict itself to observation (which we've seen a few examples of in the show) and preventing extinction of cultures, as opposed to guiding them in a particular direction. In short, both groups would deflect the asteroid, but only Contact would ensure that the civilization gets universal suffrage. I think this follows naturally from the Vulcan philosophy of IDIC, and the humility needed to acknowledge that good intentions do not always succeed at their goal.
I have, from time to time, considered the possibility that the gradual extension of the PD in the 24th to a level that seems almost dogmatic might have been, in-universe, partially due to a stronger Vulcan cultural influence. Consider the way we saw them try to treat humans, even a hundred years post-Contact, in ENT: "You are not ready." *chimes, sigh, eyebrow*
I have, from time to time, considered the possibility that the gradual extension of the PD in the 24th to a level that seems almost dogmatic might have been, in-universe, partially due to a stronger Vulcan cultural influence. Consider the way we saw them try to treat humans, even a hundred years post-Contact, in ENT: "You are not ready." *chimes, sigh, eyebrow*
A higher level of post-scarcity also helps. Kirk going to a pre-warp civilization to negotiate mining rights to a rare mineral was a bit of A Thing. Then they get replicators, and that stops being a concern.
Point. (Though I'm not sure if Stratos, or Halka, was actually pre-warp; or are you thinking of some other world?)
Which reminds me - there's a neat bit (IMO) in the TOS-era expansion for STO which notes that, in pre-post-scarcity, having an entire small planet, chock full of all sorts of high-quality mineral veins, created out of nothing and sitting on the new border between Federation and Gorn (and Metron) space is kind of a big deal.
It's like if the Prime Directive was the Hippocratic Oath.
In TOS they go around saving people's lives and always understand that some unpleasant side effects are preferable to just letting the patient die unnecessarily. Occasionally they come across some people fucked up by horrible medical experiments to remind you why they have rules.
Then later everyone gets really concerned about this "first do no harm" thing and start questioning whether they should amputate a gangrenous limb. I mean sure it would save the guy but cutting his leg off would be doing harm and we can't have that.
Then eventually it's maybe God's the Universe's plan that this plague survives instead of all these people so lets just abandon medicine entirely.
I'm probably wrong, but wasn't the authorial intent of the Prime Directive supposed to be a kind of criticism of our involvement/handling of Vietnam?
It's like if the Prime Directive was the Hippocratic Oath.
In TOS they go around saving people's lives and always understand that some unpleasant side effects are preferable to just letting the patient die unnecessarily. Occasionally they come across some people fucked up by horrible medical experiments to remind you why they have rules.
Then later everyone gets really concerned about this "first do no harm" thing and start questioning whether they should amputate a gangrenous limb. I mean sure it would save the guy but cutting his leg off would be doing harm and we can't have that.
Then eventually it's maybe God's the Universe's plan that this plague survives instead of all these people so lets just abandon medicine entirely.
I'm probably wrong, but wasn't the authorial intent of the Prime Directive supposed to be a kind of criticism of our involvement/handling of Vietnam?
This is kinda like saying that Revenge of the Sith is about the Iraq War.
You're not wrong, but you're not entirely right, either.
The Prime Directive was probably about Vietnam, sure. And it was also about treatment of indigenous peoples ("civilizing" them). The Atlantic slave trade ("saving their souls"). And, well, all of human imperialism and colonialism, really.
Starfleet Intelligence is actually pretty effective. They have sensors powerful enough to take pictures of people on the surface of planets from light years away. They're able to uncover all sorts of schemes by other spy agencies. They're able to get defectors from the Romulans and Cardassians.
The Federation in general did a pretty good job of using its influence to create fundamental change in Cardassian society. Starfleet was backing the Cardassian dissident movement. They helped anti-war Cardassian soldiers. They helped Cardassian rebels defect. The Cardassians went from preparing for another war with the Federation to giving real concessions. They signed a permanent peace treaty with the Bajorans. They participated in a combined effort with the Federation and Bajorans to build a subspace relay in the Gamma Quadrant. After the Founders destroyed the Obsidian Order, the civilian government was even able to peacefully remove the Central Command from power.
Point. (Though I'm not sure if Stratos, or Halka, was actually pre-warp; or are you thinking of some other world?)
Which reminds me - there's a neat bit (IMO) in the TOS-era expansion for STO which notes that, in pre-post-scarcity, having an entire small planet, chock full of all sorts of high-quality mineral veins, created out of nothing and sitting on the new border between Federation and Gorn (and Metron) space is kind of a big deal.
Few other instances where they interact with primitive cultures without any big deal made of it, but none others I could find where they were doing so to acquire mining rights.
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SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
Picard Series will be on Prime outside the US/Canada, a surprise if I'm honest, I would have thought the DISCO Netflix contract could just go in the photocopier
ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
i am tired of subbing to these services that show things i want to see only in other countries and having a service i decidedly do not want being the only way i can watch them
Oh well at least its on something I'm already subbed to. I was kind of worried that once they had a bunch of star trek shows going out CBS would try to launch their exclusive service in europe too.
Starfleet Intelligence is actually pretty effective. They have sensors powerful enough to take pictures of people on the surface of planets from light years away. They're able to uncover all sorts of schemes by other spy agencies. They're able to get defectors from the Romulans and Cardassians.
The Federation in general did a pretty good job of using its influence to create fundamental change in Cardassian society. Starfleet was backing the Cardassian dissident movement. They helped anti-war Cardassian soldiers. They helped Cardassian rebels defect. The Cardassians went from preparing for another war with the Federation to giving real concessions. They signed a permanent peace treaty with the Bajorans. They participated in a combined effort with the Federation and Bajorans to build a subspace relay in the Gamma Quadrant. After the Founders destroyed the Obsidian Order, the civilian government was even able to peacefully remove the Central Command from power.
How do you square that with the whole Maquis stuff though?
Starfleet Intelligence is actually pretty effective. They have sensors powerful enough to take pictures of people on the surface of planets from light years away. They're able to uncover all sorts of schemes by other spy agencies. They're able to get defectors from the Romulans and Cardassians.
The Federation in general did a pretty good job of using its influence to create fundamental change in Cardassian society. Starfleet was backing the Cardassian dissident movement. They helped anti-war Cardassian soldiers. They helped Cardassian rebels defect. The Cardassians went from preparing for another war with the Federation to giving real concessions. They signed a permanent peace treaty with the Bajorans. They participated in a combined effort with the Federation and Bajorans to build a subspace relay in the Gamma Quadrant. After the Founders destroyed the Obsidian Order, the civilian government was even able to peacefully remove the Central Command from power.
How do you square that with the whole Maquis stuff though?
The Maquis are all Federation citizens, which isn't big on withholding info from its citizens anyway. There could easily be a significant portion of the Maquis that has almost all the same training as the folks in Starfleet Intelligence, plus many people who were in Intelligence. They could counter a ton of Intelligence efforts, with the know-how and Federation tech.
Starfleet Intelligence is actually pretty effective. They have sensors powerful enough to take pictures of people on the surface of planets from light years away. They're able to uncover all sorts of schemes by other spy agencies. They're able to get defectors from the Romulans and Cardassians.
The Federation in general did a pretty good job of using its influence to create fundamental change in Cardassian society. Starfleet was backing the Cardassian dissident movement. They helped anti-war Cardassian soldiers. They helped Cardassian rebels defect. The Cardassians went from preparing for another war with the Federation to giving real concessions. They signed a permanent peace treaty with the Bajorans. They participated in a combined effort with the Federation and Bajorans to build a subspace relay in the Gamma Quadrant. After the Founders destroyed the Obsidian Order, the civilian government was even able to peacefully remove the Central Command from power.
How do you square that with the whole Maquis stuff though?
Starfleet Intelligence is not, as far as anything I've seen, a domestic spy agency.
Starfleet Intelligence is actually pretty effective. They have sensors powerful enough to take pictures of people on the surface of planets from light years away. They're able to uncover all sorts of schemes by other spy agencies. They're able to get defectors from the Romulans and Cardassians.
The Federation in general did a pretty good job of using its influence to create fundamental change in Cardassian society. Starfleet was backing the Cardassian dissident movement. They helped anti-war Cardassian soldiers. They helped Cardassian rebels defect. The Cardassians went from preparing for another war with the Federation to giving real concessions. They signed a permanent peace treaty with the Bajorans. They participated in a combined effort with the Federation and Bajorans to build a subspace relay in the Gamma Quadrant. After the Founders destroyed the Obsidian Order, the civilian government was even able to peacefully remove the Central Command from power.
How do you square that with the whole Maquis stuff though?
The Maquis are all Federation citizens, which isn't big on withholding info from its citizens anyway. There could easily be a significant portion of the Maquis that has almost all the same training as the folks in Starfleet Intelligence, plus many people who were in Intelligence. They could counter a ton of Intelligence efforts, with the know-how and Federation tech.
In fact, several members of the Maquis are former Starfleet officers.
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
Picard Series will be on Prime outside the US/Canada, a surprise if I'm honest, I would have thought the DISCO Netflix contract could just go in the photocopier
Picard Series will be on Prime outside the US/Canada, a surprise if I'm honest, I would have thought the DISCO Netflix contract could just go in the photocopier
Starfleet Intelligence is actually pretty effective. They have sensors powerful enough to take pictures of people on the surface of planets from light years away. They're able to uncover all sorts of schemes by other spy agencies. They're able to get defectors from the Romulans and Cardassians.
The Federation in general did a pretty good job of using its influence to create fundamental change in Cardassian society. Starfleet was backing the Cardassian dissident movement. They helped anti-war Cardassian soldiers. They helped Cardassian rebels defect. The Cardassians went from preparing for another war with the Federation to giving real concessions. They signed a permanent peace treaty with the Bajorans. They participated in a combined effort with the Federation and Bajorans to build a subspace relay in the Gamma Quadrant. After the Founders destroyed the Obsidian Order, the civilian government was even able to peacefully remove the Central Command from power.
How do you square that with the whole Maquis stuff though?
Starfleet planned for the long term but they didn't do a good job of accounting for short term consequences.
The Federation's plan was to support political change within the Cardassian Union over years, perhaps decades. But the current Cardassian regime was backing terrorist attacks on Federation colonists on their side of the border. The Maquis were not willing to wait 10 years for the Cardassians to become peaceful since their people were suffering right now and Starfleet underestimated their willingness to take matters into their own hands.
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
Picard Series will be on Prime outside the US/Canada, a surprise if I'm honest, I would have thought the DISCO Netflix contract could just go in the photocopier
Starfleet Intelligence is actually pretty effective. They have sensors powerful enough to take pictures of people on the surface of planets from light years away. They're able to uncover all sorts of schemes by other spy agencies. They're able to get defectors from the Romulans and Cardassians.
The Federation in general did a pretty good job of using its influence to create fundamental change in Cardassian society. Starfleet was backing the Cardassian dissident movement. They helped anti-war Cardassian soldiers. They helped Cardassian rebels defect. The Cardassians went from preparing for another war with the Federation to giving real concessions. They signed a permanent peace treaty with the Bajorans. They participated in a combined effort with the Federation and Bajorans to build a subspace relay in the Gamma Quadrant. After the Founders destroyed the Obsidian Order, the civilian government was even able to peacefully remove the Central Command from power.
How do you square that with the whole Maquis stuff though?
Starfleet planned for the long term but they didn't do a good job of accounting for short term consequences.
The Federation's plan was to support political change within the Cardassian Union over years, perhaps decades. But the current Cardassian regime was backing terrorist attacks on Federation colonists on their side of the border. The Maquis were not willing to wait 10 years for the Cardassians to become peaceful since their people were suffering right now and Starfleet underestimated their willingness to take matters into their own hands.
Stuff like this is why we need an ensemble series showing both high-level politics and the Starfleet crews on the ground. Imagine the story arc where a Federation President or Councilor has to watch their plan to foster change in Cardassia spiral into a galactic war that leaves half of Starfleet dead.
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You know what would be interesting? Section 31 doing something against Federation philosophy that is otherwise "good." Like, saving one of those pre-warp civilizations the Prime Directive consigns to extinction. Or making sure that, on a world divided between two nations, warp/transporters/replicators is invented by the representative democracy with universal suffrage and not the absolute monarchy built by slave labor.
Having them always be the Hollywood version of realpolitik is boring.
Honestly, I'd prefer keeping Section 31 as a "hard people making hard choices" cautionary tale, instead of making them sympathetic. What they do is seek the safety of the Federation, but by taking shortcuts that get people killed and don't even achieve their ends. Yes, it's only the one story, but it's an important one. If you want to do a breaking the Prime Directive story, make it a rogue admiral or something. They're always up to something.
On the subject of meme Trek vs real Trek, the Prime Directive: There are two parts to the Prime Directive; non-interference in pre-warp civilizations, and non-interference with other civilizations. Most of the times the Prime Directive was mentioned in TNG, it was in regards to the Klingon Empire or something. (Bonus headcanon: the Prime Directive is mostly for captains. There's an entire group within the Federation that specifically acts to prevent extinction of pre-warp civilizations, using minimally-intrusive methods. Doesn't help much if the planet's about to explode, but as long as they have a couple years to work, they have a surprisingly good success rate.)
In TOS they go around saving people's lives and always understand that some unpleasant side effects are preferable to just letting the patient die unnecessarily. Occasionally they come across some people fucked up by horrible medical experiments to remind you why they have rules.
Then later everyone gets really concerned about this "first do no harm" thing and start questioning whether they should amputate a gangrenous limb. I mean sure it would save the guy but cutting his leg off would be doing harm and we can't have that.
Then eventually it's maybe God's the Universe's plan that this plague survives instead of all these people so lets just abandon medicine entirely.
That's someone else's alien porn though. The archaeologist guy from the shady-as-fuck alien-world-looter corporation.
Edit: also, holy cow the makeup and practicals in this show continue to be an absolute joy
oh my god I love this. is this from some of the books or something
I would kill for an actual episode where the Enterprise discovers a planet that is in danger, and calls the Federation higher-ups about it, who dispatch that team to deal with it. TNG had loads of episodes about random people getting sent to the Enterprise to help with some sensitive mission, having one that's all about people who do this sort of stuff would've been lovely.
Nope, it's just headcanon. It comes from putting the two sections of the Prime Directive on equal footing. You don't want Captain Whomever screwing around with the Klingon Empire, but the Federation still negotiates and makes treaties and such. Non-interference with other civilizations is not a moral absolute, it's just not Starfleet's job. Similarly, you don't want them to screw around with a pre-warp civilization, because even if done with good intentions, they're probably going to break something important, because they don't have the time or training needed to do this right. (This would be similar to having the Coast Guard interfere with an un-contacted indigenous people, or making foreign policy. Even if what they did was a good thing, it's still A Problem.)
I know, right? Practical effects hold up great in the transition to HD!
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Post DS9 Trek writers have forgotten that Section 31 itself does not want anyone to know about its existence or of any possible connections to Starfleet.
That's because all post DS9 trek have been prequils set before S31 disconnected itself from the official command structure of the federation.
The Federation would have to be a horrible police state that constantly hides disasters it causes from the public if no one in the 24th century knows about Section 31 and how it created an AI that took over a fleet of ships, murdered thousands of Starfleet officers, and almost destroyed all sapient life in the galaxy.
Don't they say Section 31 have been secret since the very beginning in DS9?
I imagine that the S31 that the Federation would actually want would be like, the Federation Diplomatic Corps? Like we don't have spies and intelligence agencies but we do have a very well informed Starfleet Diplomatic Arm who pass what they might hear to the Federation Council.
S31 just doesn't make any sense is the problem.
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Well, they were Klingons who were spies/assassins but were posing as random traders or something. That's basically how spies work now.
They say something about it being part of the original Federation charter (implying its existence is actually a matter of record somewhere) I don't remember them going into more detail than that. In any case the organisation is 300 years old at this point. I know it's not quite the same thing but I don't know what various government organisations were called in 1719, it's more than enough time for it to be lost to general knowledge if it's been underground since the events of discovery.
As in, much of humanity has yet to be sold on the premises they both share and I feel like a project involving either of those approaches towards post-scarcity utopia is still best served justifying its own value to as wide an audience as possible over getting into the nitty-gritty between them.
Granted, the Culture is fundamentally evangelical in a way that the Federation is not and I think that's a trait that makes it a powerful social tool, but I feel like the Federation's prime directive is a step in respect towards other cultures that you need to take before you can safely go about seeing things with a Culture-type worldview.
Like, the Federation is based on a society that is advanced but not so much more advanced than the rest of the galaxy it interacts with that it can have the kind of certainty in the universality of the values it aims to project that living without the prime directive would entail. Meanwhile the Culture has the experience and statistics to show that what they do is "the right thing" in the long term.
I think Contact and whatever the Federation does would have a fundamentally different premise. Contact is taking civilizations, and molding them in specific ways. The Federation would restrict itself to observation (which we've seen a few examples of in the show) and preventing extinction of cultures, as opposed to guiding them in a particular direction. In short, both groups would deflect the asteroid, but only Contact would ensure that the civilization gets universal suffrage. I think this follows naturally from the Vulcan philosophy of IDIC, and the humility needed to acknowledge that good intentions do not always succeed at their goal.
A higher level of post-scarcity also helps. Kirk going to a pre-warp civilization to negotiate mining rights to a rare mineral was a bit of A Thing. Then they get replicators, and that stops being a concern.
Which reminds me - there's a neat bit (IMO) in the TOS-era expansion for STO which notes that, in pre-post-scarcity, having an entire small planet, chock full of all sorts of high-quality mineral veins, created out of nothing and sitting on the new border between Federation and Gorn (and Metron) space is kind of a big deal.
I'm probably wrong, but wasn't the authorial intent of the Prime Directive supposed to be a kind of criticism of our involvement/handling of Vietnam?
This is kinda like saying that Revenge of the Sith is about the Iraq War.
You're not wrong, but you're not entirely right, either.
The Prime Directive was probably about Vietnam, sure. And it was also about treatment of indigenous peoples ("civilizing" them). The Atlantic slave trade ("saving their souls"). And, well, all of human imperialism and colonialism, really.
The Federation in general did a pretty good job of using its influence to create fundamental change in Cardassian society. Starfleet was backing the Cardassian dissident movement. They helped anti-war Cardassian soldiers. They helped Cardassian rebels defect. The Cardassians went from preparing for another war with the Federation to giving real concessions. They signed a permanent peace treaty with the Bajorans. They participated in a combined effort with the Federation and Bajorans to build a subspace relay in the Gamma Quadrant. After the Founders destroyed the Obsidian Order, the civilian government was even able to peacefully remove the Central Command from power.
After a quick look through the episode list, I found Capella IV:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friday%27s_Child_(Star_Trek:_The_Original_Series)
Few other instances where they interact with primitive cultures without any big deal made of it, but none others I could find where they were doing so to acquire mining rights.
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How do you square that with the whole Maquis stuff though?
The Maquis are all Federation citizens, which isn't big on withholding info from its citizens anyway. There could easily be a significant portion of the Maquis that has almost all the same training as the folks in Starfleet Intelligence, plus many people who were in Intelligence. They could counter a ton of Intelligence efforts, with the know-how and Federation tech.
Starfleet Intelligence is not, as far as anything I've seen, a domestic spy agency.
In fact, several members of the Maquis are former Starfleet officers.
uhh
where is it showing in canada?
It is a mystery but I dunno maybe where DISCO shows?
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Starfleet planned for the long term but they didn't do a good job of accounting for short term consequences.
The Federation's plan was to support political change within the Cardassian Union over years, perhaps decades. But the current Cardassian regime was backing terrorist attacks on Federation colonists on their side of the border. The Maquis were not willing to wait 10 years for the Cardassians to become peaceful since their people were suffering right now and Starfleet underestimated their willingness to take matters into their own hands.
ya that's the assumption but I guess nothing has been finalized yet. (Space Channel on cable TV)
Stuff like this is why we need an ensemble series showing both high-level politics and the Starfleet crews on the ground. Imagine the story arc where a Federation President or Councilor has to watch their plan to foster change in Cardassia spiral into a galactic war that leaves half of Starfleet dead.