Club PA 2.0 has arrived! If you'd like to access some extra PA content and help support the forums, check it out at patreon.com/ClubPA
The image size limit has been raised to 1mb! Anything larger than that should be linked to. This is a HARD limit, please do not abuse it.
Our new Indie Games subforum is now open for business in G&T. Go and check it out, you might land a code for a free game. If you're developing an indie game and want to post about it, follow these directions. If you don't, he'll break your legs! Hahaha! Seriously though.
Our rules have been updated and given their own forum. Go and look at them! They are nice, and there may be new ones that you didn't know about! Hooray for rules! Hooray for The System! Hooray for Conforming!

[Overwatch] Workshop now included.

1505153555698

Posts

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    also unironically true

    barring some specific stuff tracer is basically always useful

    obF2Wuw.png
    Chance
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    I truly feel like all the Meta Talk is just so useless to 99% of Overwatch's population, and creates far more harm than good - surreality's recent experiences being the perfect fucking example. The people who are playing an executing goats or even dive at the level that really makes them reliable min/max propositions aren't us or even GM/T500 PC players.

    Yes we need tanks to disrupt and take space without getting themselves killed, yes we need supports who've mastered staying alive in a crossfire and yeah some capable DPS would be nice - but we definitely don't need to emulate this theoretical perfect comp we saw on OWL last week.

    I'd take 5 mean-as-hell DPS on their mains + 1 clever Brig over an uncomfortable, forced 2/2/2 any day of the week. Like I want a barrier to bail behind when it gets dicey, but it's like...

    It's like Sekiro. The perfect loadout does not guarantee success, and has a far, far lower impact than the basic question of the player's experience and skill. If we have no tank and you're a demonic, headshottin' monster Mei, I'd rather you play Mei than Rein.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    MrBodydavidsdurionsElement BrianKwoaruPhoenix-DMusicoolH3KnucklesFencingsax
  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    I miss enough Zenyatta balls in the average match that there is no failure on the part of my allies which I feel comfortable blaming, since the outcome of the matches could easily have changed if I landed any more Zenyatta balls than I did.

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
    ChanceBRIAN BLESSED
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    also unironically true

    barring some specific stuff tracer is basically always useful

    :) I know. Though I think that was truer before Goats. She's certainly not weak, she just requires a great deal of practice and solid aim, and she becomes more and more powerful the better your aim and gamesense becomes.

    Early Brig Days were dark times, and she hasn't been meta for a while, but she still hasn't let me down either. I've gotten some pretty nasty messages from enemies, but I've never had teammates send me a PSN message for playin' Tracer. How I play may have something to do with that - I'm pretty attentive about peeling for my supports and tanks when they need help, and I'm in range.

    And my other gauge for success is how often the reds (seem to, at least) switch to counter me. If I do well in round 1 and round 2 has a Brig, a Junk and a McCree all beelining for me, it's a good match. And it's about to get better, because I'll bet cash money that none of them main those heroes (does a flashy gun-spinning reload!) and I main this one.
    Kupi wrote: »
    I miss enough Zenyatta balls in the average match that there is no failure on the part of my allies which I feel comfortable blaming, since the outcome of the matches could easily have changed if I landed any more Zenyatta balls than I did.

    The thing is when you're having a good Zen match and ohmigosh I just deleted both their supports and both their DPS in like 15 seconds and got two-thirds of that tank I'm doin' so good! - on their next respawn those DPS are comin' straight at you lol

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    edited May 14
    Chance wrote: »
    o I got straight up banned for the sin of picking the rat

    no country for old rats

    You gotta' be able to protest that, though, right? They've said officially (I'm pretty sure!) that one-tricking is not a report or ban offense.
    McMoogle wrote: »
    I would also like to remind people there are non-comp modes :D

    I'm like 20% arcade, 75% QP, 5% comp (placements) as a general rule.

    The only thing comp offers is a more reliable promise that I'll be playing with and against people of my approximate skill, in exchange for playing way longer matches with way, way higher stress.

    I pretty much only play comp/do placements when my Fucks Given meter had dropped to 2 or 3. If I give too many fucks I start worrying more about the outcome than what I'm doing in this precise moment, and that needs to be landing headshots on domes.

    Playing the game should be fun. 20% arcade, 75% QP, 5% comp.

    This matches what I play pretty well.

    I played some comp placement matches for the first time since like season 3 a couple days ago since this is the longest I’ve played the game without a break in over a year.

    I, along with the rest of the team, was immediately called losers (repeatedly) by someone who’s voice hadn’t dropped and I regretted my decision.

    LostNinja on
    Chance
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular


    u can take my wife but u will never take my rodent

    obF2Wuw.png
    ChancedavidsdurionsBrutal JLostNinjasoylenthmightyjongyoH3Knuckles
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    edited May 14
    Chance wrote: »
    I truly feel like all the Meta Talk is just so useless to 99% of Overwatch's population, and creates far more harm than good - surreality's recent experiences being the perfect fucking example. The people who are playing an executing goats or even dive at the level that really makes them reliable min/max propositions aren't us or even GM/T500 PC players.

    Yes we need tanks to disrupt and take space without getting themselves killed, yes we need supports who've mastered staying alive in a crossfire and yeah some capable DPS would be nice - but we definitely don't need to emulate this theoretical perfect comp we saw on OWL last week.

    I'd take 5 mean-as-hell DPS on their mains + 1 clever Brig over an uncomfortable, forced 2/2/2 any day of the week. Like I want a barrier to bail behind when it gets dicey, but it's like...

    It's like Sekiro. The perfect loadout does not guarantee success, and has a far, far lower impact than the basic question of the player's experience and skill. If we have no tank and you're a demonic, headshottin' monster Mei, I'd rather you play Mei than Rein.

    I keep making the LoL comparison, but that went downhill when 1/1/2/1 lane comp became mandatory. It gets the best farm in matches where people are experienced enough to reasonably avoid ganks and immediately capitalize on a lead to push for a win. To the "rest of us", it doesn't really matter. Break meta to put 2 people in the top. If they manage to kill the "correct" solo top bruiser even once, then their farm is now ahead of the team that religiously stuck to 1/1/2/1. A top player would react to that by playing super defensively and never letting them get that kill, but "the rest of us" will probably slip up.

    And I'll keep making the shoe analogy. Worrying about comp is like worrying about wearing the same shoes the pros do in sports. It might only make a slight difference among players who have mastered every other aspect of the game, when "the rest of us" need to focus on simply being in shape.

    "Guys, we can easily break this bastion shield comp if we get another dps....but okay let's stick to 2/2/2 and keep getting slaughtered...."

    MrBody on
    ChanceH3Knuckles
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    edited May 14
    That was awesome. (Ed: @surrealitycheck )

    Chance on
    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    soylenthsurrealitycheck
  • Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    comp matters, but not the meta.

    Yesterday on Dorado there's lead DPS on the other team as Genji (they also had a Hanzo)

    so i switched to Winston to hard counter Genji

    after awhile he gets frustrated and switches to Widowmaker (console)

    well good, Winston hardcounters Widow too. I jump on her twice and she switches off to Tracer

    Fucking faaaantastic, Winston super counters tracer. Every time she comes near the point she has 60 damage per second auto locked on her 150 health pool. Good luck with that.

    Finally he switches to Reaper but the match is over and its too late.

    The game has a very Rock, Paper, Scissors format to counters, and if you refuse to acknowledge that counters exist, then you are going to be playing with a massive handicap. Yes you might be good enough to overcome the handicap, but why not just be good and have the correct hero to not be countered, that way your skill wont be hindered by a GIANT FUCKING MONKEY.

    Point is, there's enough variety in this game and people playing different characters that you're never going to fall too hard against strong meta comps until you get to higher comp, and most games are lost because a mix of poor skill and poor matchup-picks.

    Switch FC code:SW-2130-4285-0059

    Arch,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
  • Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    and god damn is winston one of the most under rated characters especially on console.

    like people do not understand the concept of 'sustained dps' which is exactly what Winston is. You ever notice tracer, lucio or genji dancing on the point? They might take 20 damage here, 80 damage there, but they can usually dodge and heal through it, but winston excells so well because YOU CANT DODGE HIS AOE GUN. Yeah you can maneuver and get out of the way, but if im good, and i am, then i track you and it only takes 3-4 seconds of pointing my face at genji or tracer to consistently kill them every time.

    it fucking blows my mind that the game has been out this long, and people that i see playing still dont understand the basic hero counters.

    Switch FC code:SW-2130-4285-0059

    Arch,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
    Auralynx
  • Brutal JBrutal J Sorry! Sorry, I'm sorry. Sorry. Registered User regular
    MrBody wrote: »
    Chance wrote: »
    I truly feel like all the Meta Talk is just so useless to 99% of Overwatch's population, and creates far more harm than good - surreality's recent experiences being the perfect fucking example. The people who are playing an executing goats or even dive at the level that really makes them reliable min/max propositions aren't us or even GM/T500 PC players.

    Yes we need tanks to disrupt and take space without getting themselves killed, yes we need supports who've mastered staying alive in a crossfire and yeah some capable DPS would be nice - but we definitely don't need to emulate this theoretical perfect comp we saw on OWL last week.

    I'd take 5 mean-as-hell DPS on their mains + 1 clever Brig over an uncomfortable, forced 2/2/2 any day of the week. Like I want a barrier to bail behind when it gets dicey, but it's like...

    It's like Sekiro. The perfect loadout does not guarantee success, and has a far, far lower impact than the basic question of the player's experience and skill. If we have no tank and you're a demonic, headshottin' monster Mei, I'd rather you play Mei than Rein.

    I keep making the LoL comparison, but that went downhill when 1/1/2/1 lane comp became mandatory. It gets the best farm in matches where people are experienced enough to reasonably avoid ganks and immediately capitalize on a lead to push for a win. To the "rest of us", it doesn't really matter. Break meta to put 2 people in the top. If they manage to kill the "correct" solo top bruiser even once, then their farm is now ahead of the team that religiously stuck to 1/1/2/1. A top player would react to that by playing super defensively and never letting them get that kill, but "the rest of us" will probably slip up.

    And I'll keep making the shoe analogy. Worrying about comp is like worrying about wearing the same shoes the pros do in sports. It might only make a slight difference among players who have mastered every other aspect of the game, when "the rest of us" need to focus on simply being in shape.

    "Guys, we can easily break this bastion shield comp if we get another dps....but okay let's stick to 2/2/2 and keep getting slaughtered...."


    Specialized comps like Bunker typically require specialized comps to deal with them, but that doesn't mean it should or even can be 3 DPS. There are two main things to think about when playing Overwatch especially as DPS, picking the right character for the job, and playing your character correctly for this specific match. Throwing more DPS at a problem won't matter if it's the wrong DPS. A Tracer, Solider, Widow, Sym comp is going to do fuck-all to a Bunker, but Bunker can be beaten very easily with just a Sombra's EMP with any kind of follow-up, or with heavy damage comp which can be easily achieved in the 2/2/2 framework with just Hanzo/Junk(or Pharah) with Zen/Hog being optional additional damage.

    Most of the time though it is how you play it that matters the most, which is why sometimes stupid comps and off-meta picks work. Like frequently when Mei's and Bastions get tons of value is simply because the enemy team has no fucking clue how to play against them. Partly because it may require specific heroes, and partly because the situation comes up so rarely that they just don't have set plans and modes of though for what they need to be doing to win. Case in point Surreality's video that was just posted:



    u can take my wife but u will never take my rodent


    Alright class, who can tell me what Surreality was doing to fucking kill it here, and more importantly WHY? Oh, and what the enemy team didn't do that enabled this play in the first place?

    Just to give you a little help our hero's stupid fucking comp is Hammond/Ana/Junk/Tracer/Widow/Mei, and our shit enemy tryhards are Orisa/D.Va/Baptiste/Zen/McCree/Widow.

    Figure it out yet?
    Surreality's positioning here is fan-fucking-tastic for several reasons. 1. He's right next to the mega health pack. 2. He's using a lot of cover. 3. He has a fallback position into the mega room where in such a confined space Junk has a big advantage in fights.

    This is all fine on it's own but where it's really shining is how it plays with his dumbass comp, namely in that it doesn't. He has no real main-tank or front line, so if he plays out in main where Mei is, he's going to get murdered, even using the natural cover that exists in that area, he still making himself a huge target simply because without any real tanks, he's going to be the easiest target to kill.

    Also what he's choosing to aim (or not aim) at. First thought for a Junk that sees an Orisa should typically be to kill the shield, but what does that actually do here and what would it really accomplish? It would help your widow sure, maybe, but he has a Widow to duel that probably isn't behind shield anyway. The only frontliner is Mei, and she's already a shit pick against this Orisa comp unless she walls up the enemy Orisa above her shield to combo with a Widow headshot (gonna go out on a limb and say this never happens). So what value is destroying shield if the characters most likely to accomplish anything (Tracer/Ball) play around the shield anyway? Nothing, so play around the shield yourself and create opportunities ball/Tracer can capitalize on. Some fine wrinkle-brained thinking there.

    As for what smooth-brained shit allowed this to happen? Anyone? D.Va should have contested the junk. Now with Surreality's positioning D.Va isn't going to kill him. Not with the mega, and the tiny death room, but D.Va doesn't need to. Eat the spam, push him back into the room, keep him busy so it's a fair 5v5 with a vastly superior comp on point.

    Also their McCree should be protecting his team against Tracer, not pushing his please kill me button. You could switch things around by having McCree fight junk, and D.Va fight Tracer, but that's sub-optimal as odds are too great Tracer just nopes out, and McCree loses the duel.

    Stupid comp beats smarter comp because smarter comp played it dumb and dumb comp played it smart. Competitive mode in a nutshell.



    ChancemightyjongyoH3Knuckles
  • PailryderPailryder Registered User regular
    and god damn is winston one of the most under rated characters especially on console.

    like people do not understand the concept of 'sustained dps' which is exactly what Winston is. You ever notice tracer, lucio or genji dancing on the point? They might take 20 damage here, 80 damage there, but they can usually dodge and heal through it, but winston excells so well because YOU CANT DODGE HIS AOE GUN. Yeah you can maneuver and get out of the way, but if im good, and i am, then i track you and it only takes 3-4 seconds of pointing my face at genji or tracer to consistently kill them every time.

    it fucking blows my mind that the game has been out this long, and people that i see playing still dont understand the basic hero counters.

    winston is a big meaty target though and most of the time if he drops into a spot to dance on someone his team better follow up. Just like most characters, by himself he's not going to finish off those people before he's dead. Especially now with the boop changes. If i see a winston flying in, i just boop him somewhere else.

    Chance
  • Element BrianElement Brian Peanut Butter Shill Registered User regular
    Pailryder wrote: »
    and god damn is winston one of the most under rated characters especially on console.

    like people do not understand the concept of 'sustained dps' which is exactly what Winston is. You ever notice tracer, lucio or genji dancing on the point? They might take 20 damage here, 80 damage there, but they can usually dodge and heal through it, but winston excells so well because YOU CANT DODGE HIS AOE GUN. Yeah you can maneuver and get out of the way, but if im good, and i am, then i track you and it only takes 3-4 seconds of pointing my face at genji or tracer to consistently kill them every time.

    it fucking blows my mind that the game has been out this long, and people that i see playing still dont understand the basic hero counters.

    winston is a big meaty target though and most of the time if he drops into a spot to dance on someone his team better follow up. Just like most characters, by himself he's not going to finish off those people before he's dead. Especially now with the boop changes. If i see a winston flying in, i just boop him somewhere else.

    yeah but im not diving in 1 on 6 with winston, im looking for the flankers and solo genjis, because they always exist, and im solo jumping on them or usually just turning around and laying down a consistant autolocked 60 dps. IF widow is off by herself and i jump on her with a bubble, she's going to die before the rest of her team can react. If tracer is harassing my healers, she's got 3 seconds to kill them or she's dead and there's no way that tracer is killing me faster than i kill her especially with healing.

    yes he can be countered but, as most of us know, people hardly ever choose the correct counters and when they do, they still have to be better skilled than i am which is a bet i'll take every time.

    he's especially good at just making sure people die, if you're on the point and people are trickling in, Winston lays down damage that they can't dodge, no more Lucio stalling on the point when he's taking a sustained 60 dps. I just wish other people understood this, because i never see it used against me.

    Switch FC code:SW-2130-4285-0059

    Arch,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_goGR39m2k
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    Brutal J wrote: »
    Specialized comps like Bunker typically require specialized comps to deal with them, but that doesn't mean it should or even can be 3 DPS.

    Well yeah. But the problem is usually the 2 dps of the 2/2/2 refuse to switch. In that case, you're better off dropping a tank and support for a 3rd dps that DOES work.

    But the 2/2/2 zealots will flip their shit if you do that instead of continuing to lose. Tis why it's best to mute all chat ahead of time.

    Musicool
  • TexiKenTexiKen that boy can sing! Jackson HeightsRegistered User regular
    I wonder if you can get stats on characters who have the least switch off time, as in heroes who players rarely if ever switch off of in a game no matter what is happening. Widow, Genji and Tracer have to be on the podium, with maybe Mercy too.

    eo3k6D0.png
  • MrBodyMrBody Registered User regular
    I'm wishing they would let you keep 50% of your ult charge when you switch off. "Just let me use this alt first!" is the most common reason for never switching after "but I have golds!".

    LostNinjaH3Knuckles
  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    edited May 14
    MrBody wrote: »
    Brutal J wrote: »
    Specialized comps like Bunker typically require specialized comps to deal with them, but that doesn't mean it should or even can be 3 DPS.

    Well yeah. But the problem is usually the 2 dps of the 2/2/2 refuse to switch. In that case, you're better off dropping a tank and support for a 3rd dps that DOES work.

    But the 2/2/2 zealots will flip their shit if you do that instead of continuing to lose. Tis why it's best to mute all chat ahead of time.
    This is a huge reason why I have problems with 2/2/2. I'll admit that plenty of other tank players can't be trusted with the temptation to pick off role when they think the dps aren't doing their job. But I know for damn certain that I have the mental fortitude to stick with my role regardless of what I think of the other players on my team and I don't need a role lock to make me do that.

    But when we run into a bunker comp and my two dps refuse to switch off Soldier/Widow then I have two options: switch to a third dps; or leave the game - in reality, or in my spirit. Because if there's one and only one time in this goddamn game when I absolutely, point-blank refuse to tank - and there is just one and it's this time and it took me years to make this one exception, and it still isn't petulance but instead about how-do-we-win-this-fucking-game - it's when there is no other way to fix the fact that my dps are too proud and stubborn to make the switches we need to win the goddamn videogame. The dps category is so deep and the other two roles are so thin that sometimes the best solution by far is in the dps category, and if my dps won't fucking press that big red button then I'm pressing it for them. An enemy bunker is one of those times. The other I'll admit would be fixed by 2/2/2: it's when the enemy is 4+ dps and the most obvious tank solutions to that problem - Winston and Roadie - just won't work in the situation.

    And it would only take something like a 2/2/2 lock and a bunker meta coinciding in time for me to go crazy and probably quit this game. My playtime is a pretty immaculate record of flexitude - those Doomfist and Wrecking Ball obsessions notwithstanding - and I'd quit this goddamn game before I had to sit through a month of praying that two internet strangers put away their ego to pick the right dps so that we can maybe beat a cheese comp and go back to playing the game. I'm probably in the minority here, but that's how strongly I feel about 2/2/2. I'd live with it in the good times but one bad meta and I'd just quit.

    Also, the above points about LoL. Personally, I'm a dotes fan, and while I accept and respect that role lock did things for LoL that a huge number of fans are happy with, IMO DotA is the better game because it maintained that rough role distribution organically and also protected the immense flexibility and player autonomy of early mobas. And it did that with superior balance and design rather than the cheap and limiting method of locking the roles.

    And it's not that 2/2/2 is bad per se, it's that once you flip that switch you can never go back. No one will let you. Everyone will settle into a comfortable and familiar style of play that does work and is more like the game we all want to play when we boot up the game...but at the cost of intangibles I just don't wanna give up. Everyone will be basically happy because Goats is dead and 5 dps comps are a thing of the past wahooooo! But something will be lost, and it won't ever come back.

    I'm really not convinced that we should lock 2/2/2 just because: a) we're sick of a meta that only survives for a couple of hundred players for now; and b) we're sick of those 3+ dps comps that now have tank and support options to make them work - some of the most fun tanks and supports in the game. I don't believe that's a good enough problem for the sledgehammer solution the internet is now asking from Blizzard. Oh, if we get it that'll be the story: "2/2/2 saved us from goats and 5 dps and terribad comps!"

    I just don't think it'll be true, and we'll never be able to go back.

    :(

    Musicool on
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
    unbelievablejugsphp.png
    ChancePhoenix-D
  • Brutal JBrutal J Sorry! Sorry, I'm sorry. Sorry. Registered User regular
    Musicool wrote: »
    MrBody wrote: »
    Brutal J wrote: »
    Specialized comps like Bunker typically require specialized comps to deal with them, but that doesn't mean it should or even can be 3 DPS.

    Well yeah. But the problem is usually the 2 dps of the 2/2/2 refuse to switch. In that case, you're better off dropping a tank and support for a 3rd dps that DOES work.

    But the 2/2/2 zealots will flip their shit if you do that instead of continuing to lose. Tis why it's best to mute all chat ahead of time.
    This is a huge reason why I have problems with 2/2/2. I'll admit that plenty of other tank players can't be trusted with the temptation to pick off role when they think the dps aren't doing their job. But I know for damn certain that I have the mental fortitude to stick with my role regardless of what I think of the other players on my team and I don't need a role lock to make me do that.

    But when we run into a bunker comp and my two dps refuse to switch off Soldier/Widow then I have two options: switch to a third dps; or leave the game - in reality, or in my spirit. Because if there's one and only one time in this goddamn game when I absolutely, point-blank refuse to tank - and there is just one and it's this time and it took me years to make this one exception, and it still isn't petulance but instead about how-do-we-win-this-fucking-game - it's when there is no other way to fix the fact that my dps are too proud and stubborn to make the switches we need to win the goddamn videogame. The dps category is so deep and the other two roles are so thin that sometimes the best solution by far is in the dps category, and if my dps won't fucking press that big red button then I'm pressing it for them. An enemy bunker is one of those times. The other I'll admit would be fixed by 2/2/2: it's when the enemy is 4+ dps and the most obvious tank solutions to that problem - Winston and Roadie - just won't work in the situation.

    And it would only take something like a 2/2/2 lock and a bunker meta coinciding in time for me to go crazy and probably quit this game. My playtime is a pretty immaculate record of flexitude - those Doomfist and Wrecking Ball obsessions notwithstanding - and I'd quit this goddamn game before I had to sit through a month of praying that two internet strangers put away their ego to pick the right dps so that we can maybe beat a cheese comp and go back to playing the game. I'm probably in the minority here, but that's how strongly I feel about 2/2/2. I'd live with it in the good times but one bad meta and I'd just quit.

    Also, the above points about LoL. Personally, I'm a dotes fan, and while I accept and respect that role lock did things for LoL that a huge number of fans are happy with, IMO DotA is the better game because it maintained that rough role distribution organically and also protected the immense flexibility and player autonomy of early mobas. And it did that with superior balance and design rather than the cheap and limiting method of locking the roles.

    And it's not that 2/2/2 is bad per se, it's that once you flip that switch you can never go back. No one will let you. Everyone will settle into a comfortable and familiar style of play that does work and is more like the game we all want to play when we boot up the game...but at the cost of intangibles I just don't wanna give up. Everyone will be basically happy because Goats is dead and 5 dps comps are a thing of the past wahooooo! But something will be lost, and it won't ever come back.

    I'm really not convinced that we should lock 2/2/2 just because: a) we're sick of a meta that only survives for a couple of hundred players for now; and b) we're sick of those 3+ dps comps that now have tank and support options to make them work - some of the most fun tanks and supports in the game. I don't believe that's a good enough problem for the sledgehammer solution the internet is now asking from Blizzard. Oh, if we get it that'll be the story: "2/2/2 saved us from goats and 5 dps and terribad comps!"

    I just don't think it'll be true, and we'll never be able to go back.

    :(

    Answers to Bunker exist in every role, but the real problem is being overlooked. A team that has decided on a coordinated strategy is up against a team that refuses to cooperate with each other. Nothing else really matters beyond that; the coordinated team is far more likely to win outside of some huge ass fuckups or amazing carries.

    H3Knuckles
  • Monkey Ball WarriorMonkey Ball Warrior A collection of mediocre hats Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    edited May 14
    I've always preferred 3 DPS, especially on offense, because it 1) surprises people, 2) destroys typical "I watched OWL last night and thought it was actually relevant" comps, and 3) Avoids most "nobody bothered to push for the whole round" preventable losses.

    I found it very disappointing back around the same time they got rid of Defense when the game got super opinionated on exactly how many tanks and healers it expected you to have. When the whole point of this game relative to other team shooters is in-round flexibility.

    Monkey Ball Warrior on
    "I resent the entire notion of a body as an ante and then raise you a generalized dissatisfaction with physicality itself" -- Tycho
    MusicoolH3KnucklesPhoenix-D
  • CoinageCoinage The Naming of Cats is a difficult matter Registered User regular
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Brutal J wrote: »
    Musicool wrote: »
    MrBody wrote: »
    Brutal J wrote: »
    Specialized comps like Bunker typically require specialized comps to deal with them, but that doesn't mean it should or even can be 3 DPS.

    Well yeah. But the problem is usually the 2 dps of the 2/2/2 refuse to switch. In that case, you're better off dropping a tank and support for a 3rd dps that DOES work.

    But the 2/2/2 zealots will flip their shit if you do that instead of continuing to lose. Tis why it's best to mute all chat ahead of time.
    This is a huge reason why I have problems with 2/2/2. I'll admit that plenty of other tank players can't be trusted with the temptation to pick off role when they think the dps aren't doing their job. But I know for damn certain that I have the mental fortitude to stick with my role regardless of what I think of the other players on my team and I don't need a role lock to make me do that.

    But when we run into a bunker comp and my two dps refuse to switch off Soldier/Widow then I have two options: switch to a third dps; or leave the game - in reality, or in my spirit. Because if there's one and only one time in this goddamn game when I absolutely, point-blank refuse to tank - and there is just one and it's this time and it took me years to make this one exception, and it still isn't petulance but instead about how-do-we-win-this-fucking-game - it's when there is no other way to fix the fact that my dps are too proud and stubborn to make the switches we need to win the goddamn videogame. The dps category is so deep and the other two roles are so thin that sometimes the best solution by far is in the dps category, and if my dps won't fucking press that big red button then I'm pressing it for them. An enemy bunker is one of those times. The other I'll admit would be fixed by 2/2/2: it's when the enemy is 4+ dps and the most obvious tank solutions to that problem - Winston and Roadie - just won't work in the situation.

    And it would only take something like a 2/2/2 lock and a bunker meta coinciding in time for me to go crazy and probably quit this game. My playtime is a pretty immaculate record of flexitude - those Doomfist and Wrecking Ball obsessions notwithstanding - and I'd quit this goddamn game before I had to sit through a month of praying that two internet strangers put away their ego to pick the right dps so that we can maybe beat a cheese comp and go back to playing the game. I'm probably in the minority here, but that's how strongly I feel about 2/2/2. I'd live with it in the good times but one bad meta and I'd just quit.

    Also, the above points about LoL. Personally, I'm a dotes fan, and while I accept and respect that role lock did things for LoL that a huge number of fans are happy with, IMO DotA is the better game because it maintained that rough role distribution organically and also protected the immense flexibility and player autonomy of early mobas. And it did that with superior balance and design rather than the cheap and limiting method of locking the roles.

    And it's not that 2/2/2 is bad per se, it's that once you flip that switch you can never go back. No one will let you. Everyone will settle into a comfortable and familiar style of play that does work and is more like the game we all want to play when we boot up the game...but at the cost of intangibles I just don't wanna give up. Everyone will be basically happy because Goats is dead and 5 dps comps are a thing of the past wahooooo! But something will be lost, and it won't ever come back.

    I'm really not convinced that we should lock 2/2/2 just because: a) we're sick of a meta that only survives for a couple of hundred players for now; and b) we're sick of those 3+ dps comps that now have tank and support options to make them work - some of the most fun tanks and supports in the game. I don't believe that's a good enough problem for the sledgehammer solution the internet is now asking from Blizzard. Oh, if we get it that'll be the story: "2/2/2 saved us from goats and 5 dps and terribad comps!"

    I just don't think it'll be true, and we'll never be able to go back.

    :(

    Answers to Bunker exist in every role, but the real problem is being overlooked. A team that has decided on a coordinated strategy is up against a team that refuses to cooperate with each other. Nothing else really matters beyond that; the coordinated team is far more likely to win outside of some huge ass fuckups or amazing carries.

    S'all about timing. Let my teammates draw their attention and then...

    I strike!

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • soylenthsoylenth Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    edited May 14


    u can take my wife but u will never take my rodent

    truly the highest noon.

    Also, I love how the killing shot is a very quick and dismissive "be quiet." beautiful work as always.

    soylenth on
    H3Knuckles
  • soylenthsoylenth Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    my niche in this game is being just annoying enough with a character to make someone switch to their golden gun version of the same character and swat me down. I wear it as a badge of pride.

    Monkey Ball WarriorChanceH3Knuckles
  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    edited May 15
    Brutal J wrote: »
    Musicool wrote: »
    MrBody wrote: »
    Brutal J wrote: »
    Specialized comps like Bunker typically require specialized comps to deal with them, but that doesn't mean it should or even can be 3 DPS.

    Well yeah. But the problem is usually the 2 dps of the 2/2/2 refuse to switch. In that case, you're better off dropping a tank and support for a 3rd dps that DOES work.

    But the 2/2/2 zealots will flip their shit if you do that instead of continuing to lose. Tis why it's best to mute all chat ahead of time.
    This is a huge reason why I have problems with 2/2/2. I'll admit that plenty of other tank players can't be trusted with the temptation to pick off role when they think the dps aren't doing their job. But I know for damn certain that I have the mental fortitude to stick with my role regardless of what I think of the other players on my team and I don't need a role lock to make me do that.

    But when we run into a bunker comp and my two dps refuse to switch off Soldier/Widow then I have two options: switch to a third dps; or leave the game - in reality, or in my spirit. Because if there's one and only one time in this goddamn game when I absolutely, point-blank refuse to tank - and there is just one and it's this time and it took me years to make this one exception, and it still isn't petulance but instead about how-do-we-win-this-fucking-game - it's when there is no other way to fix the fact that my dps are too proud and stubborn to make the switches we need to win the goddamn videogame. The dps category is so deep and the other two roles are so thin that sometimes the best solution by far is in the dps category, and if my dps won't fucking press that big red button then I'm pressing it for them. An enemy bunker is one of those times. The other I'll admit would be fixed by 2/2/2: it's when the enemy is 4+ dps and the most obvious tank solutions to that problem - Winston and Roadie - just won't work in the situation.

    And it would only take something like a 2/2/2 lock and a bunker meta coinciding in time for me to go crazy and probably quit this game. My playtime is a pretty immaculate record of flexitude - those Doomfist and Wrecking Ball obsessions notwithstanding - and I'd quit this goddamn game before I had to sit through a month of praying that two internet strangers put away their ego to pick the right dps so that we can maybe beat a cheese comp and go back to playing the game. I'm probably in the minority here, but that's how strongly I feel about 2/2/2. I'd live with it in the good times but one bad meta and I'd just quit.

    Also, the above points about LoL. Personally, I'm a dotes fan, and while I accept and respect that role lock did things for LoL that a huge number of fans are happy with, IMO DotA is the better game because it maintained that rough role distribution organically and also protected the immense flexibility and player autonomy of early mobas. And it did that with superior balance and design rather than the cheap and limiting method of locking the roles.

    And it's not that 2/2/2 is bad per se, it's that once you flip that switch you can never go back. No one will let you. Everyone will settle into a comfortable and familiar style of play that does work and is more like the game we all want to play when we boot up the game...but at the cost of intangibles I just don't wanna give up. Everyone will be basically happy because Goats is dead and 5 dps comps are a thing of the past wahooooo! But something will be lost, and it won't ever come back.

    I'm really not convinced that we should lock 2/2/2 just because: a) we're sick of a meta that only survives for a couple of hundred players for now; and b) we're sick of those 3+ dps comps that now have tank and support options to make them work - some of the most fun tanks and supports in the game. I don't believe that's a good enough problem for the sledgehammer solution the internet is now asking from Blizzard. Oh, if we get it that'll be the story: "2/2/2 saved us from goats and 5 dps and terribad comps!"

    I just don't think it'll be true, and we'll never be able to go back.

    :(

    Answers to Bunker exist in every role, but the real problem is being overlooked. A team that has decided on a coordinated strategy is up against a team that refuses to cooperate with each other. Nothing else really matters beyond that; the coordinated team is far more likely to win outside of some huge ass fuckups or amazing carries.

    The most important answer to bunker is being able to 100% the Orisa barrier and/or Bastion quickly, and that is almost exclusively the domain of the dps, short of monumental Bastion fuck-ups or disproportionately strong coordination. That's the exact reason it's considered cheese: because the organisation to run it is so much lower. That isn't the same as being fucked just because the other team is running dive and your team is a bunch of QP pickers. That's very very different. It's pretty dismissive to run that coordination argument when the whole stink around cheese strats is the disproportionate effect of coordination. It's 'git gud' levels of dismissive.

    And I don't mind cheese. Cheese is just a thing that happens and there's no point getting too grumpy about it. I actually kinda like bunker comps because of how they do force players to adapt on a composition level. But with the heroes we have today, in 2019, the key part of that composition response to bunker is in the dps category. It's Junkrat. Or Hanzo. Mei's ice wall lift into my waiting Roadhog*. Sombra. Hell, even new lifesteal Reaper and overloading Torb can do some work. These are the straightforward answers to a straightforward comp, and it's unreasonable that I should have to sit there and pray for one of those solutions.

    I might change my mind if Bastion was retuned or we suddenly got tanks who could handle Bastion better. Wrecking Ball is IMO a good start since you can surprise boop half the bunker in front of their own shield. :D

    *Crazy thought, maybe you're right about Mei and she really does need a change - since here I am talking about what she does as the kind of CC set-up that tanks do. Hmmmmmmm

    Musicool on
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
    unbelievablejugsphp.png
    Chance
  • TexiKenTexiKen that boy can sing! Jackson HeightsRegistered User regular
    while I think Sombra really needs a rework on her hack, one thing I wish she would have is greater hack speed on stationary objects. This basically means turrets and turret Bastion and immortality field.

    eo3k6D0.png
    MusicoolPailryder
  • sanstodosanstodo Registered User regular
    I reported 3 people for racism over the past few days and got three responses from Blizz about action. At least they're doing good work on that front.

    soylenthChanceH3KnucklesMonkey Ball WarriorMusicool
  • soylenthsoylenth Portland, ORRegistered User regular
    edited May 15
    sanstodo wrote: »
    I reported 3 people for racism over the past few days and got three responses from Blizz about action. At least they're doing good work on that front.

    That is good to hear. And kind of unusually responsive! Good for them.

    (unusual for the tech industry, not OW in particular)

    soylenth on
    sanstodoChanceH3Knuckles
  • SirToastySirToasty Registered User regular
    They've been pretty good about responding to legitimate reports lately. In one game with PA crew, there were 3 people on the other team griefing and being pretty awful in chat. I reported each of them on both counts and got a notification the next 6 times I logged in as a result.

    soylenthsanstodoChanceH3Knuckles
  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    TexiKen wrote: »
    while I think Sombra really needs a rework on her hack, one thing I wish she would have is greater hack speed on stationary objects. This basically means turrets and turret Bastion and immortality field.

    That would be cool and flavourful!

    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
    unbelievablejugsphp.png
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Hack should be a skillshot for the reward it offers. Flash, freeze, sleep are all way harder to land than a hack.

    I know it can be easily interrupted, but that usually represents an insane reaction speed from your target. It should be something that's more challenging to execute than holding a button in your target's general direction.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    LostNinja
  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    edited May 15
    Chance wrote: »
    Hack should be a skillshot for the reward it offers. Flash, freeze, sleep are all way harder to land than a hack.

    I know it can be easily interrupted, but that usually represents an insane reaction speed from your target. It should be something that's more challenging to execute than holding a button in your target's general direction.

    Hard disagree. The whole reason we need disables means at least some of them must be low-aim.

    CC is there to counter mobility. That's really all it's for. If mobility wasn't so whacky then you wouldn't need CC. If you make all of your CC aim-based then it runs into exactly the problem it's meant to fix: that it's easier to apply to the slow trundling Reinhardts and Zenyattas of the world than the Tracers and Genjis. This is the Doomfist Problem.

    Now Hack (and Sombra generally) has problems. The duration and uptime are staggering. Putting the only silence on a hero who herself is incredibly hard to lockdown is problematic, though it does make a kind of design sense. And hack still works better on tanks than the Genjis and Tracers and Doomfists of the world. But that's not because it's easy to aim, and making it aim-based wouldn't fix the problems with Hack.

    Edit: You know, typing this out has made me realise what the ideal silence would be and how you could fix Moira at all levels of play. Fix her dps-Moira reputation at low levels and make her valuable at high levels. Replace her damage orb with a silence orb. Exactly the same range, AoE, mechanics etc, but it doesn't do damage, it silences you while you're in the AoE aaaaaaaaand fuck I was going to talk about all the cool ways this solves all the problem with Hack but I just realised it's just another idea that DVa hard counters again. I mean unless her ultimate also had that effect maybe?

    Bloody DVa. :<

    Edit-Edit: WAIT: if you made the effect have a split-second mini-silence burst effect in a small AoE around Moira before the ball goes out then that's counterplay to DVa right there! If you're close enough - either already, or by committing Fade - you can silence her DM and thus get the ball out to continue the effect until DVa walks her mecha ass away.

    Guys I did it. I fixed DVa and Moira at the same time. I'm a genius! :P

    Musicool on
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
    unbelievablejugsphp.png
    H3Knuckles
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Yeah but... hack.

    Right now the penalty for missing a hack is 2 seconds on the cooldown if it's interrupted and 0 seconds if they juke around a corner or get bubbled.

    Imagine McCree gets his flashbang back in 2 seconds if he whiffed it. Fuuuuck that.

    Give me back Pulse Bomb in 2 seconds when I miss a stick - fair enough! It'll still be infinitely harder to land than a hack lol

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    edited May 15
    Chance wrote: »
    Yeah but... hack.

    Right now the penalty for missing a hack is 2 seconds on the cooldown if it's interrupted and 0 seconds if they juke around a corner or get bubbled.

    Imagine McCree gets his flashbang back in 2 seconds if he whiffed it. Fuuuuck that.

    Give me back Pulse Bomb in 2 seconds when I miss a stick - fair enough! It'll still be infinitely harder to land than a hack lol

    I can agree with you that Hack needs something changed. Personally I'd prefer something more direct like dropping the duration by 2-3 seconds. But if that happened Sombra would need some buffs and I'm not sure there's much more in her kit left to be buffed. IMO the biggest problem with her kit is that all of it is just a delivery vehicle for Hack and SuperHack. I mean EMP.

    Musicool on
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
    unbelievablejugsphp.png
  • KupiKupi Registered User regular
    Sombra is like the Spy in TF2 in that her role is to dismantle people who stray from their team. The interrupt on her hack is not about giving a lone, unaware target the ability to stop her hack. It's about giving an aware target a chance to counter it, and two or more people covering each other's backs total immunity.

    If we're going to weaken it all, then, I'd say reduce its range so she can't hack you from the rafters. But the cast time and interrupt parameters are working pretty well right now, I think.

    My favorite musical instrument is the air-raid siren.
    KlatuKwoaru
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    edited May 15
    It's just weird. The only other skills that are aimed like Hack are friendly skills like Guardian Angel, Repair Pack & Nano.

    But I'll admit if it were changed to my suggestion I could never juke hacks like I can.

    Edit: Just had 3 good games. Went Zen on Rialto attack when no one would heal (then someone goes Mercy) and I was feelin' generous, only to get instagibbed by the enemy Tracer every time she popped up and wasn't immediately deleted. Switched to Moira and we took it home.

    Felt good.

    Chance on
    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    edited May 15
    Kupi wrote: »
    It's about giving an aware target a chance to counter it, and two or more people covering each other's backs total immunity.

    This isn't totally true. One of the funniest things I ever saw on twitch was eviltoaster running Hammond and crossing the bridge while complaining about Sombra. He said "She's probably right here waiting for me," and sprayed a few shots around, began walking again and HACKED. There are just some moments for tanks especially where awareness is irrelevant.

    And don't even get me started on how irrelevant the interrupt is with controller sensitivity and accuracy. Like I'm often aware that a Sombra might be behind me, but I can't physically spin around fast enough to stop the hack once I hear it.

    Musicool on
    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
    unbelievablejugsphp.png
  • ChanceChance Registered User regular
    Musicool wrote: »
    Kupi wrote: »
    It's about giving an aware target a chance to counter it, and two or more people covering each other's backs total immunity.

    This isn't totally true. One of the funniest things I ever saw on twitch was eviltoaster running Hammond and crossing the bridge while complaining about Sombra. He said "She's probably right here waiting for me," and sprayed a few shots around, began walking again and HACKED. There are just some moments for tanks especially where awareness is irrelevant.

    And don't even get me started on how irrelevant the interrupt is with controller sensitivity and accuracy. Like I'm often aware that a Sombra might be behind me, but I can't physically spin around fast enough to stop the hack once I hear it.

    I've 100% done it on PS4 but my sens is like 95 or something. Some Zens can definitely do it and with two headshots.

    For most heroes there's an out. Blink and rewind are both great for it, Mercy can GA away, Moira fades, Brig just turns with her shield up, Lucio boops, Moira fades and on and on.

    OuFrYk0.jpg
    'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
    Musicool
  • MusicoolMusicool Registered User regular
    95 sens. You absolute madman.

    Burtletoy wrote: »
    I disagree completely.

    hAmmONd IsnT A mAin TAnk
    unbelievablejugsphp.png
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited May 15
    Kupi wrote: »
    Sombra is like the Spy in TF2 in that her role is to dismantle people who stray from their team. The interrupt on her hack is not about giving a lone, unaware target the ability to stop her hack. It's about giving an aware target a chance to counter it, and two or more people covering each other's backs total immunity.

    If we're going to weaken it all, then, I'd say reduce its range so she can't hack you from the rafters. But the cast time and interrupt parameters are working pretty well right now, I think.

    i mean this is kind of not what she does tho in comp in practice tho

    sombras most meme uses are 1) making reinhardt break his keyboard ( u can be playing a near mirror comp, one has sombra, just hack enemy rein and call it so he and his team are a free shatter) 2) shutting down hammond and multi dps comps (hacking hammond effectively removes him) 3) breaking bunker (randomly turn up behind the stack, spray shots into everybody, farm emp, 30seconds in emp the whole fucking lot including baptiste collect ur sr never lose to that shit again)

    she doesnt hang around trying to frag lonely children although she will if she sees you through a wall - she just stands in high dumb places spraying her smg into ur tanks to farm emp asap then wins the teamfight

    surrealitycheck on
    obF2Wuw.png
    ChanceKanaMusicoolBloodySloth
  • Houk the NamebringerHouk the Namebringer Nipples The EchidnaRegistered User regular
    yeah I think Sombra as a strong solo duelist akin to Tracer was their original idea with her design, but in practice she's at her strongest when she's at an off angle but with her team, getting hacks in the middle of a group fight and spraying into the enemy blob

    ChanceKana
Sign In or Register to comment.