"The new Star Wars lack the subtlety of the original trilogy" is one hell of a critique
Don't use quotes to misrepresent what I'm saying. Subtlety doesn't come into it. It's just condensed. I like setting up tons of miniatures more than smashing 2 action figures together. Feel free to like whatever you like.
Star Wars fans: “Give us something new, that isn’t just the same stuff we’ve seen.”
Lucasfilm: “We’re working on a KOTOR movie.”
Star Wars fans: “Yay!”
...
Am I missing something?
I absolutely think that the number of fans that sincerely want something fresh and new from Star Wars are in the minority, unfortunately.
Star Wars has its own set of themes/feels/etc. Perhaps people don't want something new and different because those things are the reason they like Star Wars? We saw this with the whole "grey Jedi" thing. People who were attracted to the duality of Light/Dark were iffy on the whole shades of grey thing that was introduced. Not everything has to have gritty realism or modern morals or have multiple subversions of themes.
In my experience Star Wars fans who big into the whole "Grey Jedi, no TRUE Dark Side/Light Side" were constantly dunked on by the majority in the same way that fans of musical theater in high school got hung up inside of their lockers.
It's pretty clear that Lucas had very clear visions for the space fights, especially the big setpiece of the first Death Star battle. But it's a sentiment that only lasted one movie. Even the big space fight in ROTJ is pretty much the same as the prequels, or anything in the newer films.
Nothing with any stakes actually happens in the space battles aside from A New Hope. It's why they only spend a fraction of the time focusing on them, and instead are constantly cutting to the main characters elsewhere. They're spinning their wheels until the ground team does their job, and once they do, the battle ends pretty much immediately.
It's pretty clear that Lucas had very clear visions for the space fights, especially the big setpiece of the first Death Star battle. But it's a sentiment that only lasted one movie. Even the big space fight in ROTJ is pretty much the same as the prequels, or anything in the newer films.
Nothing with any stakes actually happens in the space battles aside from A New Hope. It's why they only spend a fraction of the time focusing on them, and instead are constantly cutting to the main characters elsewhere. They're spinning their wheels until the ground team does their job, and once they do, the battle ends pretty much immediately.
Except the Rebels killing the frigging flagship of the Imperial Fleet.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I mean, I think stuff like Ashoka rejecting both Jedi and Sith is way more interesting than a "grey Jedi" concept.
It's pretty clear that Lucas had very clear visions for the space fights, especially the big setpiece of the first Death Star battle. But it's a sentiment that only lasted one movie. Even the big space fight in ROTJ is pretty much the same as the prequels, or anything in the newer films.
Nothing with any stakes actually happens in the space battles aside from A New Hope. It's why they only spend a fraction of the time focusing on them, and instead are constantly cutting to the main characters elsewhere. They're spinning their wheels until the ground team does their job, and once they do, the battle ends pretty much immediately.
Except the Rebels killing the frigging flagship of the Imperial Fleet.
Does that matter, though? If it did, someone, either rebel or imperial, probably would have at least acknowledged it. The objective is never seen as anything but zero sum. Either the Death Star gets blown up, or everyone is doomed. The rebels could have destroyed every other vessel on the field, and if the Death Star was still standing, it wouldn't have mattered.
Episode 4 has stakes in both of their space battles. The escape from the Death Star, though this is quickly subverted later as to be intentional, and the battle of Yavin is actually centered around the ships and what's going on in space.
Episode 5 had a land battle with a space evacuation, but no space fights.
Episode 6 is the first instance of a long line of where the space battles are treated as a 'meanwhile...' with all the important stuff centering around the smaller ground parties. It tracks with the climax of Episode 1, where Anakin is literally just doing nonsense while everything happens planetside, and in Episode 3 where the fight happens in the background, and is largely treated as a diversion for the rescue of Palpatine. Episode 7 is mostly the same as 6, with the main characters on the ground with the important job, and the pilots just kind of killing time until then.
Rogue One does a good job at splitting the difference by doing some unique stuff with it, but is still a version of 'we're having a space fight while we wait for the main characters on the ground to succeed at their tasks'
I'm not knocking it, but 'scenes actually being centered around space dogfights, instead of something you cut to for a moment' is something that was really only there with A New Hope. Every other time, it was just pewpew spectacle.
The in-atmosphere flight on Jakku is good though, since it definitely takes inspiration from the escape scene of episode 4. The Millennium Falcon is just really good for that, I guess.
The amusing old EU take was that most of Imperial High Command saw the DS II as a colossal waste of resources. It was the loss of the Executor and an entire generation of the cream of Imperial leadership that allowed the post ROTJ collapse to happen.
That may not be canon anymore, but I like that read.
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
edited May 2019
I think the main reason the grey Jedi are so appealing to people is that the prequels painted the Jedi of the Jedi Order proper to be a bunch of unfeeling automatons. It's less about "I want my character to use powers from both side of the Force because that's cool" and more "I want my character to have normal understandable human emotions without needing to be one of the bad guys to do that".
I'm sure there's plenty of the former in there too, but I'd imagine that it's the Jedi of the prequels that sour the concept of regular light side Jedi for most people.
I think the main reason the grey Jedi are so appealing to people is that the prequels painted the Jedi of the Jedi Order proper to be a bunch of unfeeling automatons. It's less about "I want my character to use powers from both side of the Force because that's cool" and more "I want my character to have normal understandable human emotions without needing to be one of the bad guys to do that".
I'm sure there's plenty of the former in there too, but I'd imagine that it's the Jedi of the prequels that sour the concept of regular light side Jedi for most people.
I hope that is where Rise is going. That's kinda where I thought Luke would be to start the ST. It's a living religion and he was the last practitioner, made sense that his views would bring passion back. My fear is that Rey will learn to use the Dark without falling to it.
It was extremely poorly told, but the general idea is that Qui-Gon, a believer in the concept of the living force, and the first Jedi to transcend after death, was the first of the "True" Jedi where Yoda's more dogmatic order ultimately failed.
I think the main reason the grey Jedi are so appealing to people is that the prequels painted the Jedi of the Jedi Order proper to be a bunch of unfeeling automatons. It's less about "I want my character to use powers from both side of the Force because that's cool" and more "I want my character to have normal understandable human emotions without needing to be one of the bad guys to do that".
I'm sure there's plenty of the former in there too, but I'd imagine that it's the Jedi of the prequels that sour the concept of regular light side Jedi for most people.
I never understood that. Qui-gon and Obi-wan were our most personal windows into the Jedi and they were both normal, understandable people.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
And, y'know, the whole point of the prequels was that the Jedi had lost their way.
"The shroud of the dark side has fallen".
They worked every day with the guy trying to destroy them and couldn't tell.
(Also, interesting thing it took me way too long to notice: the "shroud of the dark side", if that is not just a poetic term for Yoda realizing they're underground with a lantern or a map and no idea where they are, drops across their vision the moment they unthinkingly join the Republic's side in the war.)
I think the main reason the grey Jedi are so appealing to people is that the prequels painted the Jedi of the Jedi Order proper to be a bunch of unfeeling automatons. It's less about "I want my character to use powers from both side of the Force because that's cool" and more "I want my character to have normal understandable human emotions without needing to be one of the bad guys to do that".
I'm sure there's plenty of the former in there too, but I'd imagine that it's the Jedi of the prequels that sour the concept of regular light side Jedi for most people.
I never understood that. Qui-gon and Obi-wan were our most personal windows into the Jedi and they were both normal, understandable people.
Eh, Qui-Gon sure, but Obi-Wan is like the pinnacle of dead end teaching. He's the absolute best the order can produce, but he's still stilted and more than a bit cold. The further Anakin falls, the more Obi retreats into dogma. It works for him, but fails his brother in arms.
I think the main reason the grey Jedi are so appealing to people is that the prequels painted the Jedi of the Jedi Order proper to be a bunch of unfeeling automatons. It's less about "I want my character to use powers from both side of the Force because that's cool" and more "I want my character to have normal understandable human emotions without needing to be one of the bad guys to do that".
I'm sure there's plenty of the former in there too, but I'd imagine that it's the Jedi of the prequels that sour the concept of regular light side Jedi for most people.
I never understood that. Qui-gon and Obi-wan were our most personal windows into the Jedi and they were both normal, understandable people.
Eh, Qui-Gon sure, but Obi-Wan is like the pinnacle of dead end teaching. He's the absolute best the order can produce, but he's still stilted and more than a bit cold. The further Anakin falls, the more Obi retreats into dogma. It works for him, but fails his brother in arms.
He still feels like a real character. He’s not emotionally dead or an automaton. His failures and his adherence to the Jedi is part of who he is and what makes him interesting.
Also it wasn't Poe who actually killed the dreadnought.
Admittedly they were chumped out pretty hard with mass fratricide, but still.
None of those entered the fight until Poe took out the entirety of the aa guns. Which I find boring and silly.
On the other hand I found it brilliant because that's exactly how I engaged capital ships in the TIE Figher/X-Wing games :P
Likewise, there's a bit in TFA where he's taking out surface targets by dumbfiring torps as his fighter's nose swings past them. I did that a lot, back in the day.
I think the main reason the grey Jedi are so appealing to people is that the prequels painted the Jedi of the Jedi Order proper to be a bunch of unfeeling automatons. It's less about "I want my character to use powers from both side of the Force because that's cool" and more "I want my character to have normal understandable human emotions without needing to be one of the bad guys to do that".
I'm sure there's plenty of the former in there too, but I'd imagine that it's the Jedi of the prequels that sour the concept of regular light side Jedi for most people.
I never understood that. Qui-gon and Obi-wan were our most personal windows into the Jedi and they were both normal, understandable people.
Eh, Qui-Gon sure, but Obi-Wan is like the pinnacle of dead end teaching. He's the absolute best the order can produce, but he's still stilted and more than a bit cold. The further Anakin falls, the more Obi retreats into dogma. It works for him, but fails his brother in arms.
He still feels like a real character. He’s not emotionally dead or an automaton. His failures and his adherence to the Jedi is part of who he is and what makes him interesting.
That's fair. He is an emotional man suppressing himself, not an emotionless robot.
So, greatest SW films, greatest to worst:
- The Last Jedi
- Empire Strikes Back
- A New Hope
- Return of the Jedi
- Rogue One
- The Force Awakens
- Solo
- Revenge of the Sith
- The Phantom Menace
- Attack of the Clones
4,5,6,7 or 8,2 or 3,1.
I can't slot the side movies. Solo isn't good, but it contains good elements that I want to see expanded. I liked Rogue One leaving the theater, but only care to rewatch Scarif.
How's that timeline turn out if Obi-Wan abandons the Order, follows his heart to be with Satine and winds up Duke (Duke Consort?) of Mandalor?
Darth Maul murders Qui-Gon and then goes to hunt down Padme. He murders her entire guard and just as he's about to finish her, a big blue booma ball crashes through the wall and squishes him. Jar-Jar is named the hero of Naboo. Padme adopts Anakin and uses some of that royal money at her disposal to buy his mom. Everyone lives happily ever after.
How's that timeline turn out if Obi-Wan abandons the Order, follows his heart to be with Satine and winds up Duke (Duke Consort?) of Mandalor?
Darth Maul murders Qui-Gon and then goes to hunt down Padme. He murders her entire guard and just as he's about to finish her, a big blue booma ball crashes through the wall and squishes him. Jar-Jar is named the hero of Naboo. Padme adopts Anakin and uses some of that royal money at her disposal to buy his mom. Everyone lives happily ever after.
okay I should rephrase that
What if Obi-Wan abandons the Order, follows his heart to be with Satine during the Clone Wars when they meet again during his assignment to Mandalor
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
How's that timeline turn out if Obi-Wan abandons the Order, follows his heart to be with Satine and winds up Duke (Duke Consort?) of Mandalor?
Darth Maul murders Qui-Gon and then goes to hunt down Padme. He murders her entire guard and just as he's about to finish her, a big blue booma ball crashes through the wall and squishes him. Jar-Jar is named the hero of Naboo. Padme adopts Anakin and uses some of that royal money at her disposal to buy his mom. Everyone lives happily ever after.
okay I should rephrase that
What if Obi-Wan abandons the Order, follows his heart to be with Satine during the Clone Wars when they meet again during his assignment to Mandalor
Anakin is never scarred by lava and after Padme dies he has the children. Anakin moves against Palpatine and becomes the Emperor. Obi-Wan joins the Rebellion at its infancy rather than hanging around on a desert planet.
Also it wasn't Poe who actually killed the dreadnought.
Admittedly they were chumped out pretty hard with mass fratricide, but still.
None of those entered the fight until Poe took out the entirety of the aa guns. Which I find boring and silly.
On the other hand I found it brilliant because that's exactly how I engaged capital ships in the TIE Figher/X-Wing games :P
Likewise, there's a bit in TFA where he's taking out surface targets by dumbfiring torps as his fighter's nose swings past them. I did that a lot, back in the day.
I will maintain the bombers in TLJ were dumb.
It's like they said "Oh, so the space battles were based on WW2? Ok well strategic bombers were a big thing in WW2!" and failed to realize that it was based off of the naval engagements because fucking duh.
Also it wasn't Poe who actually killed the dreadnought.
Admittedly they were chumped out pretty hard with mass fratricide, but still.
None of those entered the fight until Poe took out the entirety of the aa guns. Which I find boring and silly.
On the other hand I found it brilliant because that's exactly how I engaged capital ships in the TIE Figher/X-Wing games :P
Likewise, there's a bit in TFA where he's taking out surface targets by dumbfiring torps as his fighter's nose swings past them. I did that a lot, back in the day.
I will maintain the bombers in TLJ were dumb.
It's like they said "Oh, so the space battles were based on WW2? Ok well strategic bombers were a big thing in WW2!" and failed to realize that it was based off of the naval engagements because fucking duh.
Yeah, the TLJ bomber design and the scene it was featured in was pretty dumb in every sense, really. Star Wars thrives on WW2 styled space combat, but TLJ's bombers are pretty nonsensical even in that regard because they had them hugging the target when the whole point of a strategic bomber is being way the hell up there to avoid...yanno...being shot at. Strategic bombers don't function like War Thunder arcade mode bombers doing crazy low level runs just to try and nail tanks. TLJ's bombers are just badly designed and the shot doesn't work because there's no underlying understanding of what they were trying to mimic.
I don't wholly disagree. Appearance-wise my biggest complaint was they looked like B-Wings that had let themselves go. But even with that if they'd been used in the role strategic bombers were intended for that probably would have been a plus for me.
I don't think the movies will ever deal with them, but one of the ideas in the EU that I always liked (especially as I got older) was that there were multiple traditions of Force Users. The Force is the Force, we know that. But the Jedi/Sith dichotomy is not the only way peoples of the galaxy interact with the Force.
"Grey Jedi" to me was never its own faction/religion per se. But rather just a Force User that for whatever reason has rejected the dogmatic teachings of the Jedi Order. I would think that Ashoka would absolutely be a Grey Jedi. But there are many other traditions out there. All of them falling somewhere on the light and dark scale between Jedi and Sith: Witches of Dathomir, Baran-Do Sages, Sorcerers of Tund, Monks of This, Disciples of That, Whatever that Bendu guy was, etc. etc.
The Jedi are not the only right way to view the Force. They just think they are. And they tell everyone else they are, too.
The Witches of Dathomir still exist in the current canon - The Clone Wars and Rebels.
But, yeah, I've never been a fan of there being different sides to the Force. It should simply be. No one really thinks that a lion pouncing on a gazelle is the dark side of nature. It's just a part of it. Given that the Force is generated by nature, notions of Light and Dark should be about the person, not the power itself.
And the movies show this to some extent - telekinesis isn't good or bad, but can be used to both lift a ship out of a swamp or choke people out. I can imagine instances where a mind trick can kill ("you will walk off this catwalk") and where lightning could be beneficial (you're now a source of free electricity; see also: The Legend of Korra).
But then everything is muddled in the prequels by this weak, pseudo-environmental take on it where the Dark Side has essentially polluted the rest of it (the balance of nature the Force is thrown off). Of course, how or why is never explained. We're just supposed to believe that one guy - Palpatine - is so evil he can pollute the entire metaphysical framework of the galaxy.
The TLJ bombers would have worked better in the climax of TFA and would have worked better then Poe's magic flying fixes everything.
It's like they had to one up ANH when all that Luke did was make a shot that no one else seemed able- a shot he was able to make because Biggs and Wedge were willing to die for him and Han bailed him out at the last moment.
Hell if you had those fighters in the first movie you could better frame Poe's TLJ arc by having him misusing assets because he believes his own myth.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The Witches of Dathomir still exist in the current canon - The Clone Wars and Rebels.
But, yeah, I've never been a fan of there being different sides to the Force. It should simply be. No one really thinks that a lion pouncing on a gazelle is the dark side of nature. It's just a part of it. Given that the Force is generated by nature, notions of Light and Dark should be about the person, not the power itself.
And the movies show this to some extent - telekinesis isn't good or bad, but can be used to both lift a ship out of a swamp or choke people out. I can imagine instances where a mind trick can kill ("you will walk off this catwalk") and where lightning could be beneficial (you're now a source of free electricity; see also: The Legend of Korra).
But then everything is muddled in the prequels by this weak, pseudo-environmental take on it where the Dark Side has essentially polluted the rest of it (the balance of nature the Force is thrown off). Of course, how or why is never explained. We're just supposed to believe that one guy - Palpatine - is so evil he can pollute the entire metaphysical framework of the galaxy.
For me, it's too big of an ask.
I mean, I think it was more of a "Palpatine is corruptive and evil" and also "the Jedi have become totally ineffective and complacent" thing, so my problem is more with the execution of the ideas than the ideas themselves.
The Witches of Dathomir still exist in the current canon - The Clone Wars and Rebels.
But, yeah, I've never been a fan of there being different sides to the Force. It should simply be. No one really thinks that a lion pouncing on a gazelle is the dark side of nature. It's just a part of it. Given that the Force is generated by nature, notions of Light and Dark should be about the person, not the power itself.
And the movies show this to some extent - telekinesis isn't good or bad, but can be used to both lift a ship out of a swamp or choke people out. I can imagine instances where a mind trick can kill ("you will walk off this catwalk") and where lightning could be beneficial (you're now a source of free electricity; see also: The Legend of Korra).
But then everything is muddled in the prequels by this weak, pseudo-environmental take on it where the Dark Side has essentially polluted the rest of it (the balance of nature the Force is thrown off). Of course, how or why is never explained. We're just supposed to believe that one guy - Palpatine - is so evil he can pollute the entire metaphysical framework of the galaxy.
For me, it's too big of an ask.
I mean, I think it was more of a "Palpatine is corruptive and evil" and also "the Jedi have become totally ineffective and complacent" thing, so my problem is more with the execution of the ideas than the ideas themselves.
Oh, for sure. And, really, the story could have (and I argue should have) just relied on those two points. But then Lucas had to throw in Force Jesus and the Force being imbalanced and the prophecy - which I maintain are stupid ideas for a variety of reasons - which muddy what is a really simple and effective story.
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...and the bombers...
...and their escorts.
Also it wasn't Poe who actually killed the dreadnought.
Admittedly they were chumped out pretty hard with mass fratricide, but still.
None of those entered the fight until Poe took out the entirety of the aa guns. Which I find boring and silly.
Don't use quotes to misrepresent what I'm saying. Subtlety doesn't come into it. It's just condensed. I like setting up tons of miniatures more than smashing 2 action figures together. Feel free to like whatever you like.
In my experience Star Wars fans who big into the whole "Grey Jedi, no TRUE Dark Side/Light Side" were constantly dunked on by the majority in the same way that fans of musical theater in high school got hung up inside of their lockers.
“Once you start down the Dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny.”
Nothing with any stakes actually happens in the space battles aside from A New Hope. It's why they only spend a fraction of the time focusing on them, and instead are constantly cutting to the main characters elsewhere. They're spinning their wheels until the ground team does their job, and once they do, the battle ends pretty much immediately.
Except the Rebels killing the frigging flagship of the Imperial Fleet.
Does that matter, though? If it did, someone, either rebel or imperial, probably would have at least acknowledged it. The objective is never seen as anything but zero sum. Either the Death Star gets blown up, or everyone is doomed. The rebels could have destroyed every other vessel on the field, and if the Death Star was still standing, it wouldn't have mattered.
Episode 4 has stakes in both of their space battles. The escape from the Death Star, though this is quickly subverted later as to be intentional, and the battle of Yavin is actually centered around the ships and what's going on in space.
Episode 5 had a land battle with a space evacuation, but no space fights.
Episode 6 is the first instance of a long line of where the space battles are treated as a 'meanwhile...' with all the important stuff centering around the smaller ground parties. It tracks with the climax of Episode 1, where Anakin is literally just doing nonsense while everything happens planetside, and in Episode 3 where the fight happens in the background, and is largely treated as a diversion for the rescue of Palpatine. Episode 7 is mostly the same as 6, with the main characters on the ground with the important job, and the pilots just kind of killing time until then.
Rogue One does a good job at splitting the difference by doing some unique stuff with it, but is still a version of 'we're having a space fight while we wait for the main characters on the ground to succeed at their tasks'
I'm not knocking it, but 'scenes actually being centered around space dogfights, instead of something you cut to for a moment' is something that was really only there with A New Hope. Every other time, it was just pewpew spectacle.
The in-atmosphere flight on Jakku is good though, since it definitely takes inspiration from the escape scene of episode 4. The Millennium Falcon is just really good for that, I guess.
That may not be canon anymore, but I like that read.
I'm sure there's plenty of the former in there too, but I'd imagine that it's the Jedi of the prequels that sour the concept of regular light side Jedi for most people.
I hope that is where Rise is going. That's kinda where I thought Luke would be to start the ST. It's a living religion and he was the last practitioner, made sense that his views would bring passion back. My fear is that Rey will learn to use the Dark without falling to it.
I never understood that. Qui-gon and Obi-wan were our most personal windows into the Jedi and they were both normal, understandable people.
"The shroud of the dark side has fallen".
They worked every day with the guy trying to destroy them and couldn't tell.
(Also, interesting thing it took me way too long to notice: the "shroud of the dark side", if that is not just a poetic term for Yoda realizing they're underground with a lantern or a map and no idea where they are, drops across their vision the moment they unthinkingly join the Republic's side in the war.)
Eh, Qui-Gon sure, but Obi-Wan is like the pinnacle of dead end teaching. He's the absolute best the order can produce, but he's still stilted and more than a bit cold. The further Anakin falls, the more Obi retreats into dogma. It works for him, but fails his brother in arms.
He still feels like a real character. He’s not emotionally dead or an automaton. His failures and his adherence to the Jedi is part of who he is and what makes him interesting.
On the other hand I found it brilliant because that's exactly how I engaged capital ships in the TIE Figher/X-Wing games :P
Likewise, there's a bit in TFA where he's taking out surface targets by dumbfiring torps as his fighter's nose swings past them. I did that a lot, back in the day.
That's fair. He is an emotional man suppressing himself, not an emotionless robot.
So, greatest SW films, greatest to worst:
- The Last Jedi
- Empire Strikes Back
- A New Hope
- Return of the Jedi
- Rogue One
- The Force Awakens
- Solo
- Revenge of the Sith
- The Phantom Menace
- Attack of the Clones
I can't slot the side movies. Solo isn't good, but it contains good elements that I want to see expanded. I liked Rogue One leaving the theater, but only care to rewatch Scarif.
How's that timeline turn out if Obi-Wan abandons the Order, follows his heart to be with Satine and winds up Duke (Duke Consort?) of Mandalor?
Darth Maul murders Qui-Gon and then goes to hunt down Padme. He murders her entire guard and just as he's about to finish her, a big blue booma ball crashes through the wall and squishes him. Jar-Jar is named the hero of Naboo. Padme adopts Anakin and uses some of that royal money at her disposal to buy his mom. Everyone lives happily ever after.
okay I should rephrase that
What if Obi-Wan abandons the Order, follows his heart to be with Satine during the Clone Wars when they meet again during his assignment to Mandalor
Anakin is never scarred by lava and after Padme dies he has the children. Anakin moves against Palpatine and becomes the Emperor. Obi-Wan joins the Rebellion at its infancy rather than hanging around on a desert planet.
I will maintain the bombers in TLJ were dumb.
It's like they said "Oh, so the space battles were based on WW2? Ok well strategic bombers were a big thing in WW2!" and failed to realize that it was based off of the naval engagements because fucking duh.
Yeah, the TLJ bomber design and the scene it was featured in was pretty dumb in every sense, really. Star Wars thrives on WW2 styled space combat, but TLJ's bombers are pretty nonsensical even in that regard because they had them hugging the target when the whole point of a strategic bomber is being way the hell up there to avoid...yanno...being shot at. Strategic bombers don't function like War Thunder arcade mode bombers doing crazy low level runs just to try and nail tanks. TLJ's bombers are just badly designed and the shot doesn't work because there's no underlying understanding of what they were trying to mimic.
I don't wholly disagree. Appearance-wise my biggest complaint was they looked like B-Wings that had let themselves go. But even with that if they'd been used in the role strategic bombers were intended for that probably would have been a plus for me.
But as presented? ...bleh
"Grey Jedi" to me was never its own faction/religion per se. But rather just a Force User that for whatever reason has rejected the dogmatic teachings of the Jedi Order. I would think that Ashoka would absolutely be a Grey Jedi. But there are many other traditions out there. All of them falling somewhere on the light and dark scale between Jedi and Sith: Witches of Dathomir, Baran-Do Sages, Sorcerers of Tund, Monks of This, Disciples of That, Whatever that Bendu guy was, etc. etc.
The Jedi are not the only right way to view the Force. They just think they are. And they tell everyone else they are, too.
But, yeah, I've never been a fan of there being different sides to the Force. It should simply be. No one really thinks that a lion pouncing on a gazelle is the dark side of nature. It's just a part of it. Given that the Force is generated by nature, notions of Light and Dark should be about the person, not the power itself.
And the movies show this to some extent - telekinesis isn't good or bad, but can be used to both lift a ship out of a swamp or choke people out. I can imagine instances where a mind trick can kill ("you will walk off this catwalk") and where lightning could be beneficial (you're now a source of free electricity; see also: The Legend of Korra).
But then everything is muddled in the prequels by this weak, pseudo-environmental take on it where the Dark Side has essentially polluted the rest of it (the balance of nature the Force is thrown off). Of course, how or why is never explained. We're just supposed to believe that one guy - Palpatine - is so evil he can pollute the entire metaphysical framework of the galaxy.
For me, it's too big of an ask.
It's like they had to one up ANH when all that Luke did was make a shot that no one else seemed able- a shot he was able to make because Biggs and Wedge were willing to die for him and Han bailed him out at the last moment.
Hell if you had those fighters in the first movie you could better frame Poe's TLJ arc by having him misusing assets because he believes his own myth.
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I mean, I think it was more of a "Palpatine is corruptive and evil" and also "the Jedi have become totally ineffective and complacent" thing, so my problem is more with the execution of the ideas than the ideas themselves.
Oh, for sure. And, really, the story could have (and I argue should have) just relied on those two points. But then Lucas had to throw in Force Jesus and the Force being imbalanced and the prophecy - which I maintain are stupid ideas for a variety of reasons - which muddy what is a really simple and effective story.