When was the last time a religious group in America did work in good faith with law enforcement to hokd their clergy accountable? I know the Mormom church rarely does, and there have been rumbles about these sorts of things in various Protestant denominations for years, specifically the Southern Baptists.
This was a good piece about a Methodist church doing that, as well as the warning signs of churches looking to hide things.
Thanks! While I'm not religious of any stripe anymore its nice to see there are still some decent Christian denominations left.
And speaking of Protestant denominations, the one with a massive abuse scandal coming out is the Southern Baptists:
In the past 20 years, a disturbing number of Southern Baptists with formal church roles have engaged in sexual misconduct, a new investigation by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News reveals. They were pastors. Deacons. Youth pastors. They left behind more than 700 victims. Read and hear the stories of those victims, and learn the depths of the crimes and misconduct of the church leaders they trusted.
There's a number of stories under the link, detailing the massive scope of the abuse. Which is at "holy fuck".
The author of a California bill strongly opposed by the Roman Catholic Church that would require priests to report confessions of child sex abuse to authorities said Tuesday he has put it on hold, citing lack of support.
SB 360 by Sen. Jerry Hill, D-San Mateo, had passed out of the state Senate on a 30-4-4 vote May 23. But Hill’s office said he pulled it from a scheduled Tuesday hearing before the Assembly Public Safety Committee after he “became aware that the legislation would not have enough support to move on.”
The California Catholic Conference said the ‘seal of confession’ is one of the most sacrosanct of Catholic beliefs and penitents rely on this unbreakable guarantee to freely confess and seek reconciliation with God. A priest who “breaks the seal,” the Catholic Conference added, “is automatically excommunicated.”
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Jesus also made it clear that child abusers were not to be tolerated.
Not that I give a damn as a recovering Catholic, but they aren't exaggerating here. Priests are supposed to work with confessors when they reveal crimes and encourage them to turn themselves into authorities but they are bound to secrecy.
Besides, wow would you enforce something like this without like bugging confession booths?
Same way all mandatory reporting laws work. If you don't report and the victim later comes forward you are in deep shit.
Every teacher in the country is a mandatory reporter, for instance.
Lawyers, however, are not and any such statement would be shielded by privilege. Barring a substantial belief that reporting is necessary to prevent reasonably certain death or substantial bodily harm. Therapists are a bit more murky depending on the State and ethics requirements.
Oh therapists are not at all murky ethically. I don't know every states laws, but I don't know if a single state where the law would protect you. At least here, and I think nationally, it is the most stringent reporting requirement with the fewest exceptions. I have more wiggle room with potentially suicidal clients than I do with child abuse, and there isn't really much wiggle room with potentially suicidal clients.
The author of a California bill strongly opposed by the Roman Catholic Church that would require priests to report confessions of child sex abuse to authorities said Tuesday he has put it on hold, citing lack of support.
SB 360 by Sen. Jerry Hill, D-San Mateo, had passed out of the state Senate on a 30-4-4 vote May 23. But Hill’s office said he pulled it from a scheduled Tuesday hearing before the Assembly Public Safety Committee after he “became aware that the legislation would not have enough support to move on.”
The California Catholic Conference said the ‘seal of confession’ is one of the most sacrosanct of Catholic beliefs and penitents rely on this unbreakable guarantee to freely confess and seek reconciliation with God. A priest who “breaks the seal,” the Catholic Conference added, “is automatically excommunicated.”
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that Jesus also made it clear that child abusers were not to be tolerated.
Not that I give a damn as a recovering Catholic, but they aren't exaggerating here. Priests are supposed to work with confessors when they reveal crimes and encourage them to turn themselves into authorities but they are bound to secrecy.
Besides, wow would you enforce something like this without like bugging confession booths?
Same way all mandatory reporting laws work. If you don't report and the victim later comes forward you are in deep shit.
Every teacher in the country is a mandatory reporter, for instance.
Lawyers, however, are not and any such statement would be shielded by privilege. Barring a substantial belief that reporting is necessary to prevent reasonably certain death or substantial bodily harm. Therapists are a bit more murky depending on the State and ethics requirements.
Oh therapists are not at all murky ethically. I don't know every states laws, but I don't know if a single state where the law would protect you. At least here, and I think nationally, it is the most stringent reporting requirement with the fewest exceptions. I have more wiggle room with potentially suicidal clients than I do with child abuse, and there isn't really much wiggle room with potentially suicidal clients.
Good, for some reason I thought it was a lot more scattershot depending on the State.
Stripped of their collars and cassocks, they went unnoticed in a series of tiny Midwestern towns as they were escorted into dingy warehouses and offices. Neighbors had no idea some of them might have been accused sexual predators.
For nearly two decades, a small nonprofit group called Opus Bono Sacerdotii has operated out of unmarked buildings in rural Michigan, providing money, shelter, transport, legal help and other support to hundreds, perhaps thousands, of Catholic priests accused of sexual abuse.
And while powerful clerics have publicly pledged to hold the church accountable for the crimes of its clergy and help survivors heal, some of them arranged meetings, offered blessings or quietly sent checks to this organization that backed the abusers, The Associated Press has found.
Catholic leaders say the church has no official relationship with the group. But Opus Bono successfully forged networks within the church hierarchy.
The newest allegations came Wednesday among hundreds of lawsuits filed under New York’s Child Victims Act, which opened a one-year window for lawsuits from child sexual abuse victims previously barred by the statute of limitations.
Attorney Vincent Nappo said the goal is to raise public awareness. He said his firm – Pfau, Cochran, Vertetis and Amala – is filing seven lawsuits Wednesday in New York against Boy Scouts of America on behalf of 20 survivors of sexual abuse.
The suits contain allegations that span decades, from the mid-1960s to the late 1980s. The majority involve Scoutmasters and other adult leaders. Nappo said his firm represents additional clients who say they were abused in Scouting across the country, and there are three active cases in Washington and Chicago.
"Now that the law's about to open up ... I think there’s going to be even more people who are going to read about this and hear about it, and the Boy Scouts are going to have a lot of tough questions to answer," Nappo said.
The Boy Scouts of America isn't the only organization whose handling of child sexual abuse allegations is under renewed scrutiny. Lawsuits filed across New York name individuals accused of child sexual abuse and the institutions with which they were affiliated, such as schools and churches. Some have never before been publicly accused.
The law opens up a one year statute of limitations for any victim of child abuse whose claim was precluded by New York's short statute of limitations.
And speaking of Protestant denominations, the one with a massive abuse scandal coming out is the Southern Baptists:
In the past 20 years, a disturbing number of Southern Baptists with formal church roles have engaged in sexual misconduct, a new investigation by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News reveals. They were pastors. Deacons. Youth pastors. They left behind more than 700 victims. Read and hear the stories of those victims, and learn the depths of the crimes and misconduct of the church leaders they trusted.
There's a number of stories under the link, detailing the massive scope of the abuse. Which is at "holy fuck".
Aren't Southern Baptists heavily into purity culture, too?
I'm starting to worry about my old church/sect. Nothing's come out that I know of, but it would make a perfect hunting ground for predators.
It was mostly within the missionary programs, and actually pretty tame compared to nearly every other missionary program because they're a horror show of abuse, trafficking, and sex tourism. Also, some major props for dropping the fucking hammer when it broke rather than burying it in the yard and hoping for the best.
Another gem in that article: in 1993 a full 14% of Southern Baptist ministers were willing to admit on flimsy promise of anonymity that they had engaged in inappropriate sexual conduct (this is worse than the top end estimate for Catholic priests and this is self admitted!), and by 2000 the church itself acknowledged that abuse had reached disaster proportions. In 2016 they came up with a bold plan to solve it: the new head of the church is a proven cover up expert.
In a post on the advocacy group's website, Bill Donohue goes on to eat his foot by naming the post, "Pennsylvania Grand Jury Report Debunked" and further claims that children being raped by priests is a myth and that homosexual people are behind it all.
For those who don't know Bill has been president of this arch conservative group since 1993 and has made a habit out of blaming everybody but the priests for the bad things they do, that it's all a conspiracy to take down the Catholic Church, and generally people need to just shut up and listen only to him.
All opinions are my own and in no way reflect that of my employer.
And speaking of Protestant denominations, the one with a massive abuse scandal coming out is the Southern Baptists:
In the past 20 years, a disturbing number of Southern Baptists with formal church roles have engaged in sexual misconduct, a new investigation by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News reveals. They were pastors. Deacons. Youth pastors. They left behind more than 700 victims. Read and hear the stories of those victims, and learn the depths of the crimes and misconduct of the church leaders they trusted.
There's a number of stories under the link, detailing the massive scope of the abuse. Which is at "holy fuck".
Aren't Southern Baptists heavily into purity culture, too?
I'm starting to worry about my old church/sect. Nothing's come out that I know of, but it would make a perfect hunting ground for predators.
Not just that - I've had a few friends get compared to chewing gum in those environments - but it's basically orthodoxy in a lot of southern/independent Baptist congregations and institutions that the rapist is explicitly the victim. Schools do things like expel sexual assault victims if they don't show up at a meeting to beg their assailant to forgive them for putting their soul at risk, that kind of thing.
And speaking of Protestant denominations, the one with a massive abuse scandal coming out is the Southern Baptists:
In the past 20 years, a disturbing number of Southern Baptists with formal church roles have engaged in sexual misconduct, a new investigation by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News reveals. They were pastors. Deacons. Youth pastors. They left behind more than 700 victims. Read and hear the stories of those victims, and learn the depths of the crimes and misconduct of the church leaders they trusted.
There's a number of stories under the link, detailing the massive scope of the abuse. Which is at "holy fuck".
Aren't Southern Baptists heavily into purity culture, too?
I'm starting to worry about my old church/sect. Nothing's come out that I know of, but it would make a perfect hunting ground for predators.
Not just that - I've had a few friends get compared to chewing gum in those environments - but it's basically orthodoxy in a lot of southern/independent Baptist congregations and institutions that the rapist is explicitly the victim. Schools do things like expel sexual assault victims if they don't show up at a meeting to beg their assailant to forgive them for putting their soul at risk, that kind of thing.
...what.
I got variations on the chewing gum metaphor in high school, but at least they acknowledged that it takes two people to fornicate.
And speaking of Protestant denominations, the one with a massive abuse scandal coming out is the Southern Baptists:
In the past 20 years, a disturbing number of Southern Baptists with formal church roles have engaged in sexual misconduct, a new investigation by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News reveals. They were pastors. Deacons. Youth pastors. They left behind more than 700 victims. Read and hear the stories of those victims, and learn the depths of the crimes and misconduct of the church leaders they trusted.
There's a number of stories under the link, detailing the massive scope of the abuse. Which is at "holy fuck".
Aren't Southern Baptists heavily into purity culture, too?
I'm starting to worry about my old church/sect. Nothing's come out that I know of, but it would make a perfect hunting ground for predators.
Not just that - I've had a few friends get compared to chewing gum in those environments - but it's basically orthodoxy in a lot of southern/independent Baptist congregations and institutions that the rapist is explicitly the victim. Schools do things like expel sexual assault victims if they don't show up at a meeting to beg their assailant to forgive them for putting their soul at risk, that kind of thing.
...what.
I got variations on the chewing gum metaphor in high school, but at least they acknowledged that it takes two people to fornicate.
Oh, it's an utterly disgusting mentality that it's the fault of the rape victim for causing the rapist to sin by tempting them. And it's fucking endemic.
And speaking of Protestant denominations, the one with a massive abuse scandal coming out is the Southern Baptists:
In the past 20 years, a disturbing number of Southern Baptists with formal church roles have engaged in sexual misconduct, a new investigation by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News reveals. They were pastors. Deacons. Youth pastors. They left behind more than 700 victims. Read and hear the stories of those victims, and learn the depths of the crimes and misconduct of the church leaders they trusted.
There's a number of stories under the link, detailing the massive scope of the abuse. Which is at "holy fuck".
Aren't Southern Baptists heavily into purity culture, too?
I'm starting to worry about my old church/sect. Nothing's come out that I know of, but it would make a perfect hunting ground for predators.
Not just that - I've had a few friends get compared to chewing gum in those environments - but it's basically orthodoxy in a lot of southern/independent Baptist congregations and institutions that the rapist is explicitly the victim. Schools do things like expel sexual assault victims if they don't show up at a meeting to beg their assailant to forgive them for putting their soul at risk, that kind of thing.
...what.
I got variations on the chewing gum metaphor in high school, but at least they acknowledged that it takes two people to fornicate.
I'll bet you that if something nonconsentual happened that would suddenly shift to the exact situation I described.
The inquiry into BJU's handling of campus abuse is probably fairly representative of fundamentalist schools tied into the whole purity-culture thing, even if a lot of the others don't quite go so far as to put those sorts of policies in writing like they did for awhile.
(Their response to that report - after a few attempts to shut the inquiry down - was essentially "Stop being so bitter. Besides, God doesn't want us to change our policies.")
And speaking of Protestant denominations, the one with a massive abuse scandal coming out is the Southern Baptists:
In the past 20 years, a disturbing number of Southern Baptists with formal church roles have engaged in sexual misconduct, a new investigation by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News reveals. They were pastors. Deacons. Youth pastors. They left behind more than 700 victims. Read and hear the stories of those victims, and learn the depths of the crimes and misconduct of the church leaders they trusted.
There's a number of stories under the link, detailing the massive scope of the abuse. Which is at "holy fuck".
Aren't Southern Baptists heavily into purity culture, too?
I'm starting to worry about my old church/sect. Nothing's come out that I know of, but it would make a perfect hunting ground for predators.
Not just that - I've had a few friends get compared to chewing gum in those environments - but it's basically orthodoxy in a lot of southern/independent Baptist congregations and institutions that the rapist is explicitly the victim. Schools do things like expel sexual assault victims if they don't show up at a meeting to beg their assailant to forgive them for putting their soul at risk, that kind of thing.
...what.
I got variations on the chewing gum metaphor in high school, but at least they acknowledged that it takes two people to fornicate.
I'll bet you that if something nonconsentual happened that would suddenly shift to the exact situation I described.
The inquiry into BJU's handling of campus abuse is probably fairly representative of fundamentalist schools tied into the whole purity-culture thing, even if a lot of the others don't quite go so far as to put those sorts of policies in writing like they did for awhile.
(Their response to that report - after a few attempts to shut the inquiry down - was essentially "Stop being so bitter. Besides, God doesn't want us to change our policies.")
In theory, if a couple of kids got caught having sex, they'd be considered equally guilty. I don't know how it worked in practice because I never knew anyone who got caught before graduation.
And anyway it's still not great because they don't really acknowledge coercive rape as being a thing.
And speaking of Protestant denominations, the one with a massive abuse scandal coming out is the Southern Baptists:
In the past 20 years, a disturbing number of Southern Baptists with formal church roles have engaged in sexual misconduct, a new investigation by the Houston Chronicle and San Antonio Express-News reveals. They were pastors. Deacons. Youth pastors. They left behind more than 700 victims. Read and hear the stories of those victims, and learn the depths of the crimes and misconduct of the church leaders they trusted.
There's a number of stories under the link, detailing the massive scope of the abuse. Which is at "holy fuck".
Aren't Southern Baptists heavily into purity culture, too?
I'm starting to worry about my old church/sect. Nothing's come out that I know of, but it would make a perfect hunting ground for predators.
Not just that - I've had a few friends get compared to chewing gum in those environments - but it's basically orthodoxy in a lot of southern/independent Baptist congregations and institutions that the rapist is explicitly the victim. Schools do things like expel sexual assault victims if they don't show up at a meeting to beg their assailant to forgive them for putting their soul at risk, that kind of thing.
...what.
I got variations on the chewing gum metaphor in high school, but at least they acknowledged that it takes two people to fornicate.
Oh, it's an utterly disgusting mentality that it's the fault of the rape victim for causing the rapist to sin by tempting them. And it's fucking endemic.
It's a major problem in the Mennonite and Amish community, as well. They prefer to handle sexual assault within the community via temporary shunning. As is the practice, all members of the community must verbally welcome back and forgive the shunned once their "sentence" is over. This ends with a lot of victims having to choose either to forgive their accuser (who is often a serial offender that gets shunned and forgiving repeatedly) or be shunned themselves until they agree to take part in the official forgiveness.
There are lots of variations of this within the Christian community, especially the ones that favor handling sexual crimes within the Church. The pressure often ends up being on the victim to forgive and keep living alongside their attacker without complaint.
The bishop of the Buffalo archdiocese, Richard Malone, has "resigned" (read: been removed from the post by the Vatican) over child abuse in the archdiocese:
When Malone, 73, returned from the “ad limina” visit in Rome, he issued a statement Nov. 18 restating his position that he had no intention of resigning.
In the statement, Malone said “… it was clear that the pope understands the difficulties and distress we here in Buffalo and I, personally, have been experiencing.”
The Buffalo Diocese has been in crisis since February 2018, when the Rev. Norbert F. Orsolits, a retired priest, told The News that he had molested probably dozens of boys, an admission that led to revelations of cover-ups of clergy sex abuse complaints against other priests. The diocese paid $17.5 million to 106 childhood victims through a compensation fund. It is now facing more than 220 lawsuits filed by others who allege they were molested as minors by area priests. More Child Victims Act lawsuits have been filed against the Buffalo Diocese than against any other defendant in the state.
The diocese also is the subject of an FBI probe that includes the subpoena of diocese records and interviews of several dozen potential witnesses and a civil investigation by the state Attorney General’s Office.
It's a major problem in the Mennonite and Amish community, as well. They prefer to handle sexual assault within the community via temporary shunning. As is the practice, all members of the community must verbally welcome back and forgive the shunned once their "sentence" is over. This ends with a lot of victims having to choose either to forgive their accuser (who is often a serial offender that gets shunned and forgiving repeatedly) or be shunned themselves until they agree to take part in the official forgiveness.
There are lots of variations of this within the Christian community, especially the ones that favor handling sexual crimes within the Church. The pressure often ends up being on the victim to forgive and keep living alongside their attacker without complaint.
Incidentally, Cosmopolitan of all the possible places just published an article about sex abuse in Amish communities. It's widespread and hushed up internally, including by secluding and drugging women so they can't testify against their families and elders. The insular nature of their communities only makes it more worse because children are intentionally kept from outside sources who could inform them of their rights.
It's a rough read. Trigger warnings:
There is a teenage girl who is repeatedly raped by several of her brothers, including once where she miscarried.
Oh hey, speaking of child abuse in the catholic church. I just found out the priest that was in charge of my parochial middle school back in the 90s (along with a number of other schools along his way) has been accused of an incident in the 70's. So that was an interesting bit of news to find out about last night.
When Amish communities do deal with abuse, it's almost worse than hushing it up. They will typically shun or banish the perpetrator for a period of time (which can be pretty rough if you live in one of these groups), the big catch is, their rules require all members to forgive them and welcome them home after this period, including their victim. Refusing to do so usually means shunning or banishment yourself, and in the case of ongoing non-compliance rather than discrete past sins, that's typically until you comply rather than a set sentence.
Remember where I said this was rough? It's not thirty years in federal prison, but depending on exactly which branch it is (not all Amish are quite equal) it effectively means one is homeless and cut off from all services and commerce for the duration - abuse victims unwilling to embrace their abusers basically have one choice: leave the community and their family and never return.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I remember reading that an UltraOrthodox community in New York also has a similar problem.
When Amish communities do deal with abuse, it's almost worse than hushing it up. They will typically shun or banish the perpetrator for a period of time (which can be pretty rough if you live in one of these groups), the big catch is, their rules require all members to forgive them and welcome them home after this period, including their victim. Refusing to do so usually means shunning or banishment yourself, and in the case of ongoing non-compliance rather than discrete past sins, that's typically until you comply rather than a set sentence.
Remember where I said this was rough? It's not thirty years in federal prison, but depending on exactly which branch it is (not all Amish are quite equal) it effectively means one is homeless and cut off from all services and commerce for the duration - abuse victims unwilling to embrace their abusers basically have one choice: leave the community and their family and never return.
There are places (like most of Baptist-ish private colleges) that take it a step further and handle abuse by requiring the victim to ask the perpetrator for forgiveness, and punishing them if they don't play along.
There are a lot of unbelievably gross things about abuse in religious communities, but I have to say the weaponization of forgiveness as a way of facilitating said abuse is perhaps the worst part of it.
When Amish communities do deal with abuse, it's almost worse than hushing it up. They will typically shun or banish the perpetrator for a period of time (which can be pretty rough if you live in one of these groups), the big catch is, their rules require all members to forgive them and welcome them home after this period, including their victim. Refusing to do so usually means shunning or banishment yourself, and in the case of ongoing non-compliance rather than discrete past sins, that's typically until you comply rather than a set sentence.
Remember where I said this was rough? It's not thirty years in federal prison, but depending on exactly which branch it is (not all Amish are quite equal) it effectively means one is homeless and cut off from all services and commerce for the duration - abuse victims unwilling to embrace their abusers basically have one choice: leave the community and their family and never return.
There are places (like most of Baptist-ish private colleges) that take it a step further and handle abuse by requiring the victim to ask the perpetrator for forgiveness, and punishing them if they don't play along.
There are a lot of unbelievably gross things about abuse in religious communities, but I have to say the weaponization of forgiveness as a way of facilitating said abuse is perhaps the worst part of it.
Do I even want to know what the victim is supposed to be asking forgiveness for? Existing?
When Amish communities do deal with abuse, it's almost worse than hushing it up. They will typically shun or banish the perpetrator for a period of time (which can be pretty rough if you live in one of these groups), the big catch is, their rules require all members to forgive them and welcome them home after this period, including their victim. Refusing to do so usually means shunning or banishment yourself, and in the case of ongoing non-compliance rather than discrete past sins, that's typically until you comply rather than a set sentence.
Remember where I said this was rough? It's not thirty years in federal prison, but depending on exactly which branch it is (not all Amish are quite equal) it effectively means one is homeless and cut off from all services and commerce for the duration - abuse victims unwilling to embrace their abusers basically have one choice: leave the community and their family and never return.
There are places (like most of Baptist-ish private colleges) that take it a step further and handle abuse by requiring the victim to ask the perpetrator for forgiveness, and punishing them if they don't play along.
There are a lot of unbelievably gross things about abuse in religious communities, but I have to say the weaponization of forgiveness as a way of facilitating said abuse is perhaps the worst part of it.
Do I even want to know what the victim is supposed to be asking forgiveness for? Existing?
When Amish communities do deal with abuse, it's almost worse than hushing it up. They will typically shun or banish the perpetrator for a period of time (which can be pretty rough if you live in one of these groups), the big catch is, their rules require all members to forgive them and welcome them home after this period, including their victim. Refusing to do so usually means shunning or banishment yourself, and in the case of ongoing non-compliance rather than discrete past sins, that's typically until you comply rather than a set sentence.
Remember where I said this was rough? It's not thirty years in federal prison, but depending on exactly which branch it is (not all Amish are quite equal) it effectively means one is homeless and cut off from all services and commerce for the duration - abuse victims unwilling to embrace their abusers basically have one choice: leave the community and their family and never return.
There are places (like most of Baptist-ish private colleges) that take it a step further and handle abuse by requiring the victim to ask the perpetrator for forgiveness, and punishing them if they don't play along.
There are a lot of unbelievably gross things about abuse in religious communities, but I have to say the weaponization of forgiveness as a way of facilitating said abuse is perhaps the worst part of it.
Do I even want to know what the victim is supposed to be asking forgiveness for? Existing?
Tempting the perpetrator into sin, I believe.
Yep, the mentality is that it's the victim's fault for making the perpetrator commit their violation. It's disgusting.
When Amish communities do deal with abuse, it's almost worse than hushing it up. They will typically shun or banish the perpetrator for a period of time (which can be pretty rough if you live in one of these groups), the big catch is, their rules require all members to forgive them and welcome them home after this period, including their victim. Refusing to do so usually means shunning or banishment yourself, and in the case of ongoing non-compliance rather than discrete past sins, that's typically until you comply rather than a set sentence.
Remember where I said this was rough? It's not thirty years in federal prison, but depending on exactly which branch it is (not all Amish are quite equal) it effectively means one is homeless and cut off from all services and commerce for the duration - abuse victims unwilling to embrace their abusers basically have one choice: leave the community and their family and never return.
There are places (like most of Baptist-ish private colleges) that take it a step further and handle abuse by requiring the victim to ask the perpetrator for forgiveness, and punishing them if they don't play along.
There are a lot of unbelievably gross things about abuse in religious communities, but I have to say the weaponization of forgiveness as a way of facilitating said abuse is perhaps the worst part of it.
Do I even want to know what the victim is supposed to be asking forgiveness for? Existing?
Tempting the perpetrator into sin, I believe.
Yep, the mentality is that it's the victim's fault for making the perpetrator commit their violation. It's disgusting.
It's worth remembering that for a lot of these conservative religious communities, the idea that men do not have the right to treat women as chattel was forced upon them by modernity and law. There is a lot of malicious compliance.
When Amish communities do deal with abuse, it's almost worse than hushing it up. They will typically shun or banish the perpetrator for a period of time (which can be pretty rough if you live in one of these groups), the big catch is, their rules require all members to forgive them and welcome them home after this period, including their victim. Refusing to do so usually means shunning or banishment yourself, and in the case of ongoing non-compliance rather than discrete past sins, that's typically until you comply rather than a set sentence.
Remember where I said this was rough? It's not thirty years in federal prison, but depending on exactly which branch it is (not all Amish are quite equal) it effectively means one is homeless and cut off from all services and commerce for the duration - abuse victims unwilling to embrace their abusers basically have one choice: leave the community and their family and never return.
There are places (like most of Baptist-ish private colleges) that take it a step further and handle abuse by requiring the victim to ask the perpetrator for forgiveness, and punishing them if they don't play along.
There are a lot of unbelievably gross things about abuse in religious communities, but I have to say the weaponization of forgiveness as a way of facilitating said abuse is perhaps the worst part of it.
Do I even want to know what the victim is supposed to be asking forgiveness for? Existing?
Tempting the perpetrator into sin, I believe.
Yep, the mentality is that it's the victim's fault for making the perpetrator commit their violation. It's disgusting.
It's worth remembering that for a lot of these conservative religious communities, the idea that men do not have the right to treat women as chattel was forced upon them by modernity and law. There is a lot of malicious compliance.
It's more than that. These cultures oblige women to perform the emotional work that rightfully should be on men. It's the duty of women to regulate male emotions, to control male desires.
When Amish communities do deal with abuse, it's almost worse than hushing it up. They will typically shun or banish the perpetrator for a period of time (which can be pretty rough if you live in one of these groups), the big catch is, their rules require all members to forgive them and welcome them home after this period, including their victim. Refusing to do so usually means shunning or banishment yourself, and in the case of ongoing non-compliance rather than discrete past sins, that's typically until you comply rather than a set sentence.
Remember where I said this was rough? It's not thirty years in federal prison, but depending on exactly which branch it is (not all Amish are quite equal) it effectively means one is homeless and cut off from all services and commerce for the duration - abuse victims unwilling to embrace their abusers basically have one choice: leave the community and their family and never return.
There are places (like most of Baptist-ish private colleges) that take it a step further and handle abuse by requiring the victim to ask the perpetrator for forgiveness, and punishing them if they don't play along.
There are a lot of unbelievably gross things about abuse in religious communities, but I have to say the weaponization of forgiveness as a way of facilitating said abuse is perhaps the worst part of it.
Do I even want to know what the victim is supposed to be asking forgiveness for? Existing?
Tempting the perpetrator into sin, I believe.
Yep, the mentality is that it's the victim's fault for making the perpetrator commit their violation. It's disgusting.
It's worth remembering that for a lot of these conservative religious communities, the idea that men do not have the right to treat women as chattel was forced upon them by modernity and law. There is a lot of malicious compliance.
It's more than that. These cultures oblige women to perform the emotional work that rightfully should be on men. It's the duty of women to regulate male emotions, to control male desires.
It's also just plain impossible, because male desires are very creative. Even if women are completely draped in enveloping robes and don't go anywhere without a chaperone, men don't lose their desires.
When Amish communities do deal with abuse, it's almost worse than hushing it up. They will typically shun or banish the perpetrator for a period of time (which can be pretty rough if you live in one of these groups), the big catch is, their rules require all members to forgive them and welcome them home after this period, including their victim. Refusing to do so usually means shunning or banishment yourself, and in the case of ongoing non-compliance rather than discrete past sins, that's typically until you comply rather than a set sentence.
Remember where I said this was rough? It's not thirty years in federal prison, but depending on exactly which branch it is (not all Amish are quite equal) it effectively means one is homeless and cut off from all services and commerce for the duration - abuse victims unwilling to embrace their abusers basically have one choice: leave the community and their family and never return.
There are places (like most of Baptist-ish private colleges) that take it a step further and handle abuse by requiring the victim to ask the perpetrator for forgiveness, and punishing them if they don't play along.
There are a lot of unbelievably gross things about abuse in religious communities, but I have to say the weaponization of forgiveness as a way of facilitating said abuse is perhaps the worst part of it.
Do I even want to know what the victim is supposed to be asking forgiveness for? Existing?
Tempting the perpetrator into sin, I believe.
Yep. The "logic" is that if the perpetrator's eternal soul is at risk, and it wouldn't have been at risk has the perp not attacked the victim, and the victim had to have done something or else the obviously good Christian wouldn't have "stumbled," because he was doing just fine before his victim came along.
Their take on the perp's case boils down to "his very soul is at risk, hasn't he suffered enough?" leavened with some "discussing this sort of thing is harmful to the church, which is itself sinning."
Men as a morally upright controlled gender and women as the wild lustful temptresses is a pretty standard view on the issue at a bunch of points in history. Including a time when a lot of american christian religious sects got going.
Our more modern tendency is to view it the opposite way, but both are just cultural trends and those can change over time.
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MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
It's stuff like this that has really soured my opinion on organized religion. Well that and playing CK2 and EU4 where religion was really just an excuse to expand your borders.
It's stuff like this that has really soured my opinion on organized religion. Well that and playing CK2 and EU4 where religion was really just an excuse to expand your borders.
Honestly I think the only thing special about the church case of it is the size of the organization. We've had the same kind of issues come up with colleges multiple times in the last few years, they just didn't have the option of shuffling people around quietly as part of the cover up. Power without accountability will always lead to abuse of it.
It's stuff like this that has really soured my opinion on organized religion. Well that and playing CK2 and EU4 where religion was really just an excuse to expand your borders.
Honestly I think the only thing special about the church case of it is the size of the organization. We've had the same kind of issues come up with colleges multiple times in the last few years, they just didn't have the option of shuffling people around quietly as part of the cover up. Power without accountability will always lead to abuse of it.
I think it is perhaps slightly special because a lot of organized religion is specifically designed to accumulate power without accountability. Because it's quite clear that "when you die you will be held accountable for your actions" is not a very good reinforcement tool for a wide variety of reasons
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Thanks! While I'm not religious of any stripe anymore its nice to see there are still some decent Christian denominations left.
There's a number of stories under the link, detailing the massive scope of the abuse. Which is at "holy fuck".
Oh therapists are not at all murky ethically. I don't know every states laws, but I don't know if a single state where the law would protect you. At least here, and I think nationally, it is the most stringent reporting requirement with the fewest exceptions. I have more wiggle room with potentially suicidal clients than I do with child abuse, and there isn't really much wiggle room with potentially suicidal clients.
Good, for some reason I thought it was a lot more scattershot depending on the State.
One of the people fighting that change was the soon to no longer be Representative Justin Amash.
This is revolting.
The law opens up a one year statute of limitations for any victim of child abuse whose claim was precluded by New York's short statute of limitations.
Aren't Southern Baptists heavily into purity culture, too?
I'm starting to worry about my old church/sect. Nothing's come out that I know of, but it would make a perfect hunting ground for predators.
https://expo.pennlive.com/erry-2018/05/5e56fa19a94444/child_sex_crimes_catholic_prie.html
It was mostly within the missionary programs, and actually pretty tame compared to nearly every other missionary program because they're a horror show of abuse, trafficking, and sex tourism. Also, some major props for dropping the fucking hammer when it broke rather than burying it in the yard and hoping for the best.
Another gem in that article: in 1993 a full 14% of Southern Baptist ministers were willing to admit on flimsy promise of anonymity that they had engaged in inappropriate sexual conduct (this is worse than the top end estimate for Catholic priests and this is self admitted!), and by 2000 the church itself acknowledged that abuse had reached disaster proportions. In 2016 they came up with a bold plan to solve it: the new head of the church is a proven cover up expert.
In a post on the advocacy group's website, Bill Donohue goes on to eat his foot by naming the post, "Pennsylvania Grand Jury Report Debunked" and further claims that children being raped by priests is a myth and that homosexual people are behind it all.
For those who don't know Bill has been president of this arch conservative group since 1993 and has made a habit out of blaming everybody but the priests for the bad things they do, that it's all a conspiracy to take down the Catholic Church, and generally people need to just shut up and listen only to him.
Not just that - I've had a few friends get compared to chewing gum in those environments - but it's basically orthodoxy in a lot of southern/independent Baptist congregations and institutions that the rapist is explicitly the victim. Schools do things like expel sexual assault victims if they don't show up at a meeting to beg their assailant to forgive them for putting their soul at risk, that kind of thing.
...what.
I got variations on the chewing gum metaphor in high school, but at least they acknowledged that it takes two people to fornicate.
Oh, it's an utterly disgusting mentality that it's the fault of the rape victim for causing the rapist to sin by tempting them. And it's fucking endemic.
I'll bet you that if something nonconsentual happened that would suddenly shift to the exact situation I described.
The inquiry into BJU's handling of campus abuse is probably fairly representative of fundamentalist schools tied into the whole purity-culture thing, even if a lot of the others don't quite go so far as to put those sorts of policies in writing like they did for awhile.
(Their response to that report - after a few attempts to shut the inquiry down - was essentially "Stop being so bitter. Besides, God doesn't want us to change our policies.")
In theory, if a couple of kids got caught having sex, they'd be considered equally guilty. I don't know how it worked in practice because I never knew anyone who got caught before graduation.
And anyway it's still not great because they don't really acknowledge coercive rape as being a thing.
It's a major problem in the Mennonite and Amish community, as well. They prefer to handle sexual assault within the community via temporary shunning. As is the practice, all members of the community must verbally welcome back and forgive the shunned once their "sentence" is over. This ends with a lot of victims having to choose either to forgive their accuser (who is often a serial offender that gets shunned and forgiving repeatedly) or be shunned themselves until they agree to take part in the official forgiveness.
There are lots of variations of this within the Christian community, especially the ones that favor handling sexual crimes within the Church. The pressure often ends up being on the victim to forgive and keep living alongside their attacker without complaint.
Incidentally, Cosmopolitan of all the possible places just published an article about sex abuse in Amish communities. It's widespread and hushed up internally, including by secluding and drugging women so they can't testify against their families and elders. The insular nature of their communities only makes it more worse because children are intentionally kept from outside sources who could inform them of their rights.
It's a rough read. Trigger warnings:
Remember where I said this was rough? It's not thirty years in federal prison, but depending on exactly which branch it is (not all Amish are quite equal) it effectively means one is homeless and cut off from all services and commerce for the duration - abuse victims unwilling to embrace their abusers basically have one choice: leave the community and their family and never return.
It's why the Brooklyn DA got his walking papers a few years back.
There are places (like most of Baptist-ish private colleges) that take it a step further and handle abuse by requiring the victim to ask the perpetrator for forgiveness, and punishing them if they don't play along.
There are a lot of unbelievably gross things about abuse in religious communities, but I have to say the weaponization of forgiveness as a way of facilitating said abuse is perhaps the worst part of it.
Do I even want to know what the victim is supposed to be asking forgiveness for? Existing?
Tempting the perpetrator into sin, I believe.
Steam: Elvenshae // PSN: Elvenshae // WotC: Elvenshae
Wilds of Aladrion: [https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/43159014/#Comment_43159014]Ellandryn[/url]
Yep, the mentality is that it's the victim's fault for making the perpetrator commit their violation. It's disgusting.
It's worth remembering that for a lot of these conservative religious communities, the idea that men do not have the right to treat women as chattel was forced upon them by modernity and law. There is a lot of malicious compliance.
It's more than that. These cultures oblige women to perform the emotional work that rightfully should be on men. It's the duty of women to regulate male emotions, to control male desires.
It's also just plain impossible, because male desires are very creative. Even if women are completely draped in enveloping robes and don't go anywhere without a chaperone, men don't lose their desires.
Yep. The "logic" is that if the perpetrator's eternal soul is at risk, and it wouldn't have been at risk has the perp not attacked the victim, and the victim had to have done something or else the obviously good Christian wouldn't have "stumbled," because he was doing just fine before his victim came along.
Their take on the perp's case boils down to "his very soul is at risk, hasn't he suffered enough?" leavened with some "discussing this sort of thing is harmful to the church, which is itself sinning."
Our more modern tendency is to view it the opposite way, but both are just cultural trends and those can change over time.
They know they're going to lose, so they're just trying to make sure they can still keep all their stuff. Shows where their real priorities lie.
...the courts can just say "Nuh uh" to that though, can't they?
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Honestly I think the only thing special about the church case of it is the size of the organization. We've had the same kind of issues come up with colleges multiple times in the last few years, they just didn't have the option of shuffling people around quietly as part of the cover up. Power without accountability will always lead to abuse of it.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
I think it is perhaps slightly special because a lot of organized religion is specifically designed to accumulate power without accountability. Because it's quite clear that "when you die you will be held accountable for your actions" is not a very good reinforcement tool for a wide variety of reasons