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US Immigration Policy - ICE still the worst, acting in open defiance of orders given.

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  • BSoBBSoB Registered User regular
    Money is power. The power to enact your plans. 4 billion dollars is a lot of power.

  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister It Gets Worse before it gets any better.Registered User regular
    So they can open more camps and probably buy up a bunch of armored vehicles and rifles for upcoming immigration sweeps. They already opened more camps and show no sign of slowing their efforts at all so that's what I'd expect.

  • JavenJaven Registered User regular
    BSoB wrote: »
    Money is power. The power to enact your plans. 4 billion dollars is a lot of power.

    This was my conclusion as well. Was ICE going to continue doing what it was doing without the money? Probably. Does an extra 4 billion dollars allow them a greater scope, or greater flexibility and/or effectiveness towards this goal? Almost assuredly.

    Money allows things to happen. Even if things were happening before, more money allows for more things. It's true that the camps aren't going away until 2020 at the earliest. But the more money they get, the more they're able to do until that time.

  • Styrofoam SammichStyrofoam Sammich WANT. normal (not weird)Registered User regular
    There's a belief among some that making the camps somewhat less monstrous is a step on the path towards not having camps and I don't think that has any basis.

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  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    Stipulating that the money had to go toward improving the situation for the detainees was not being regarded as the end-game by anybody. It wasn't a step toward the conclusion of all this, it was a step toward JESUS FUCK LET THE PEOPLE BATHE AND EAT PROPERLY AND GET THEIR MEDICINE.

    For a party full of leadership and voters (and people outside the country in support of it) that are centrists who want to compromise on everything, this was an actual compromise situation. And the left that's present in government said, "it means defeating part of the inhumane shit going on, so yes let's do this and continue to work on things."

    And I guess that maybe that freaked out the centrists that the left would be on board with something, so they had to shift to the right-wing on the issue. Which is, fund things to continue as they are.

    Why compromise with people that are part of your voting base when you can compromise with the enemy causing all these problems? Or in this case, just give them the go-ahead to continue without any change. FFS.

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    4 billion dollars is a lot of cushion to stuff in a contractor's pockets.

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    The thing about stipulating the money had to be used in particular ways, and then it getting misused (which this administration is so into) is that not only in 2020 do you get to put shit to a stop, you get to further hold people accountable. Any DHS / ICE agent or supervisor involved would likely have a hard time finding a law enforcement job outside of the south, and they sure as hell would be red flagged for any job that has to do with financial decisions.

  • IncenjucarIncenjucar VChatter Seattle, WARegistered User regular
    4 billion buys a lot of lobbyists.

  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular


    ICE may have been limiting their opperations out of fear for their officier’s safety.

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  • enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Or the whole point was to scare and intimidate. That's the toughest needle to thread, whether hyping the raids as being monstrous actually does the job of the raids and making them unnecessary.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
  • Loren MichaelLoren Michael Registered User regular
    edited July 2019
    has anyone considered getting involved in the home concentration camp business?

    I've been talking to my parents about it, they have a back room and stuff and I think they even have some extra toothbrushes lying around

    EDIT: I just verified that they have soap too

    Loren Michael on
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  • nightmarennynightmarenny Registered User regular
    Or the whole point was to scare and intimidate. That's the toughest needle to thread, whether hyping the raids as being monstrous actually does the job of the raids and making them unnecessary.

    A failure to perform highly publicized raids and blaming it on a failed attack on one of their facilities seems like a terrible plan even for the Trump administration. Sometimes maybe we don’t need to postulate that what looks like a win might somehow be a loss.

    Quire.jpg
  • XantomasXantomas Registered User regular


    ICE may have been limiting their opperations out of fear for their officier’s safety.

    Sabotaged by their own racist bumbling loudmouth of a boss.

  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    Stipulating that the money had to go toward improving the situation for the detainees was not being regarded as the end-game by anybody. It wasn't a step toward the conclusion of all this, it was a step toward JESUS FUCK LET THE PEOPLE BATHE AND EAT PROPERLY AND GET THEIR MEDICINE.

    For a party full of leadership and voters (and people outside the country in support of it) that are centrists who want to compromise on everything, this was an actual compromise situation. And the left that's present in government said, "it means defeating part of the inhumane shit going on, so yes let's do this and continue to work on things."

    And I guess that maybe that freaked out the centrists that the left would be on board with something, so they had to shift to the right-wing on the issue. Which is, fund things to continue as they are.

    Why compromise with people that are part of your voting base when you can compromise with the enemy causing all these problems? Or in this case, just give them the go-ahead to continue without any change. FFS.

    I assume any part of it that was based in fear was based on fear of being hit with "Why aren't you giving the government the money it needs to deal with the situation at the border? Look at how bad it's gotten!"

  • ZomroZomro Registered User regular
    edited July 2019
    Elizabeth Warren promised that if she's elected President, she'll have her DoJ investigate crimes and abuses against migrants under Trump's administration.

    I'm totally down for that.
    Warren also vowed to create a Department of Justice task force to investigate the abuses perpetrated by the Trump administration against migrants if she is elected in 2020. "Let there be no ambiguity on this: if you are violating the basic rights of immigrants, now or in the future, a Warren administration will hold you accountable," the senator warned.

    Zomro on
  • Mild ConfusionMild Confusion Smash All Things Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    If X funding produced X camps why wouldn’t it stand to reason that X+Y funding will equal X+Y camps

    EDIT: ‘They were being cruel without the money’ is a bad argument when the whole point of the money was to allow them to continue being cruel. That was why they asked for the money.

    Nah, it's literally the entire point. The cruelty is not contingent on funding in either direction. It's simply a function of the task and the people carrying it out. More funding does not mean more cruelty. Less funding does not mean less cruelty. Nor the other way around.

    It's basically the same with camps. The entire thing all these looks inside the camps have shown is that the number of camps or staff they have is not a limiting factor on what they are doing. Which should be no surprise since there's no way they are letting people go free just because they don't have the space.

    Given the above the basic reasoning behind going for funding would be because then you avoid headlines about how you are responsible for the overcrowding because you refuse to properly fund border security and you can say "We gave you money Trump and yet it's still terrible, what are you diong?" and because it might lead to less overcrowding or more resources or something. Not saying I think it's the best play, but there's a case to be made there.

    The other point here is that the alternative doesn't solve anything either. Refusing funding is basically just a positioning strategy so you can say you had nothing to do with the issue and aren't responsible in any way.

    It's basically a matter of picking your media strategy here. Because nothing you do is gonna stop the camps beyond, like, oversight attached to funding bills. Which they already said and showed they won't allow.

    The bolded is most definitely false. Sure, the quality of the cruelty is independent of funds, but the quantity is assuredly improved by funding. More money means more ICE agents to steal more people, more computers to look for more people and more locations, more vehicles and fuel to conduct more raids, more people rounded up to be cruel to.

    The Dems may not be able to help the people that are locked up by cutting funding, but they sure as shit could have prevented more people from being locked up.

    The difference between 100,000 and 200,000 or any fucking number isn’t a statistic, they are real people and we’re gonna be torturing more of them now, not less. And any language that reduced the quantity of the torture isn’t gonna lessen, because that language was removed. Same quantity, just more of it.

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  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    edited July 2019
    has anyone considered getting involved in the home concentration camp business?

    I've been talking to my parents about it, they have a back room and stuff and I think they even have some extra toothbrushes lying around

    EDIT: I just verified that they have soap too


    That’s $283,000 per person per year

    Imagine if we just paid, hell, half of that to asylum seekers on the condition that they have to show up to their eventual hearing and abide by the decision

    I’m not saying that’s the right policy either but it shows you how stupid this whole process is, even in terms of being the best and most efficient at keeping brown people out of this country

    Their bigotry is consistently foiled by their cruelty

    Astaereth on
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  • MillMill Registered User regular
    Yeah, it's just galling to see how much money these fuckers piss away for the sake of being cruel. I'm sure there are a ton of deceased that served in WWII, that re rolling in their graves because a bunch of boomer fucks are pissing away the nation's welfare, in order to please a bunch of fukcing fascists.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    The ostensible point of this endeavor is to be so cartoonishly cruel that people stop seeking asylum here.

    The problem is that Trump and company are too dim to realize that asylum seekers are generally fleeing for their lives, and so literally any treatment that is not murder is still a step up. It's hard to be so cruel to someone that they'll opt for death.

    Though I'm sure they'll keep trying.

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  • TheBigEasyTheBigEasy Registered User regular
    Also, imagine for a moment they get their wish. Nobody enters anymore and all immigrants "go back to their country" and they have their white ethnostate.

    The US would collapse within five minutes of that happening.

    The sheer stupidity of the argument is mindboggling.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    TheBigEasy wrote: »
    Also, imagine for a moment they get their wish. Nobody enters anymore and all immigrants "go back to their country" and they have their white ethnostate.

    The US would collapse within five minutes of that happening.

    The sheer stupidity of the argument is mindboggling.

    They'll just have to start importing some brown people to do all the work. Maybe as some sort of trade, involving molasses and rum...

  • AstaerethAstaereth In the belly of the beastRegistered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The ostensible point of this endeavor is to be so cartoonishly cruel that people stop seeking asylum here.

    The problem is that Trump and company are too dim to realize that asylum seekers are generally fleeing for their lives, and so literally any treatment that is not murder is still a step up. It's hard to be so cruel to someone that they'll opt for death.

    Though I'm sure they'll keep trying.

    This logic is how concentration camps will become death camps if we let this go on long enough

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The ostensible point of this endeavor is to be so cartoonishly cruel that people stop seeking asylum here.

    The problem is that Trump and company are too dim to realize that asylum seekers are generally fleeing for their lives, and so literally any treatment that is not murder is still a step up. It's hard to be so cruel to someone that they'll opt for death.

    Though I'm sure they'll keep trying.

    This logic is how concentration camps will become death camps if we let this go on long enough

    Very much so. Making the populace accept more cruelty at each step is the plan here.
    since it's all sped up, I'd expect force labor camps before years end.

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  • DacDac Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The ostensible point of this endeavor is to be so cartoonishly cruel that people stop seeking asylum here.

    The problem is that Trump and company are too dim to realize that asylum seekers are generally fleeing for their lives, and so literally any treatment that is not murder is still a step up. It's hard to be so cruel to someone that they'll opt for death.

    Though I'm sure they'll keep trying.

    'The fuck do they think will happen? They'll just stop declaring asylum and come across other ways,' I mutter to myself.

    And then I have to remind myself that logic isn't the point. This is to give his supporters a big cruelty stiffy.

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  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    I don't know how much of a reminder is needed on this, but reminder: America and our Jim Crow laws were the inspirations the Nazis took for their own campaigns of genocide:

    https://www.history.com/news/how-the-nazis-were-inspired-by-jim-crow

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  • LanzLanz ...Za?Registered User regular
    edited July 2019
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KQLifOQC_g

    "Before all this, before the Germans, before the war... back home, man, you were the Nazis."

    Lanz on
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  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Astaereth wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The ostensible point of this endeavor is to be so cartoonishly cruel that people stop seeking asylum here.

    The problem is that Trump and company are too dim to realize that asylum seekers are generally fleeing for their lives, and so literally any treatment that is not murder is still a step up. It's hard to be so cruel to someone that they'll opt for death.

    Though I'm sure they'll keep trying.

    This logic is how concentration camps will become death camps if we let this go on long enough

    Very much so. Making the populace accept more cruelty at each step is the plan here.
    since it's all sped up, I'd expect force labor camps before years end.

    I'll be looking at the private camps to be the first movers on that. They already have the connections in that area.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • RickRudeRickRude Registered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The ostensible point of this endeavor is to be so cartoonishly cruel that people stop seeking asylum here.

    The problem is that Trump and company are too dim to realize that asylum seekers are generally fleeing for their lives, and so literally any treatment that is not murder is still a step up. It's hard to be so cruel to someone that they'll opt for death.

    Though I'm sure they'll keep trying.

    That's what I wish more people would understand. One what they're fleeing from and two how asylum laws actually fucking work.

  • ProhassProhass Registered User regular
    The guy that got killed they keep reporting that he was armed. And while it’s arguable the guy was being dangerous and putting lives at risk, he had flares and was trying to start fires, when it first got reported I thought he had guns

  • WhiteZinfandelWhiteZinfandel Your insides Let me show you themRegistered User regular
    edited July 2019
    Prohass wrote: »
    The guy that got killed they keep reporting that he was armed. And while it’s arguable the guy was being dangerous and putting lives at risk, he had flares and was trying to start fires, when it first got reported I thought he had guns

    I'm interested in seeing where the gun/no gun thing leads, but the guy was reportedly trying to set fire to a propane tank and there's nothing arguable about that being dangerous.

    WhiteZinfandel on
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    If X funding produced X camps why wouldn’t it stand to reason that X+Y funding will equal X+Y camps

    EDIT: ‘They were being cruel without the money’ is a bad argument when the whole point of the money was to allow them to continue being cruel. That was why they asked for the money.

    Nah, it's literally the entire point. The cruelty is not contingent on funding in either direction. It's simply a function of the task and the people carrying it out. More funding does not mean more cruelty. Less funding does not mean less cruelty. Nor the other way around.

    It's basically the same with camps. The entire thing all these looks inside the camps have shown is that the number of camps or staff they have is not a limiting factor on what they are doing. Which should be no surprise since there's no way they are letting people go free just because they don't have the space.

    Given the above the basic reasoning behind going for funding would be because then you avoid headlines about how you are responsible for the overcrowding because you refuse to properly fund border security and you can say "We gave you money Trump and yet it's still terrible, what are you diong?" and because it might lead to less overcrowding or more resources or something. Not saying I think it's the best play, but there's a case to be made there.

    The other point here is that the alternative doesn't solve anything either. Refusing funding is basically just a positioning strategy so you can say you had nothing to do with the issue and aren't responsible in any way.

    It's basically a matter of picking your media strategy here. Because nothing you do is gonna stop the camps beyond, like, oversight attached to funding bills. Which they already said and showed they won't allow.

    The bolded is most definitely false. Sure, the quality of the cruelty is independent of funds, but the quantity is assuredly improved by funding. More money means more ICE agents to steal more people, more computers to look for more people and more locations, more vehicles and fuel to conduct more raids, more people rounded up to be cruel to.

    The Dems may not be able to help the people that are locked up by cutting funding, but they sure as shit could have prevented more people from being locked up.

    The difference between 100,000 and 200,000 or any fucking number isn’t a statistic, they are real people and we’re gonna be torturing more of them now, not less. And any language that reduced the quantity of the torture isn’t gonna lessen, because that language was removed. Same quantity, just more of it.

    I don't think that's really true. AFAIK these people are border crossers for the most part, not people picked up in internal ICE raids or something. And the ridiculously overcrowded conditions we are already seeing are a pretty abject demonstration imo of the fact that they aren't really concerned with issues of available resources. There's not a ton of slack here they aren't already trying to pick up in terms of rounding people up.

  • nexuscrawlernexuscrawler Registered User regular
    shryke wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    Javen wrote: »
    If X funding produced X camps why wouldn’t it stand to reason that X+Y funding will equal X+Y camps

    EDIT: ‘They were being cruel without the money’ is a bad argument when the whole point of the money was to allow them to continue being cruel. That was why they asked for the money.

    Nah, it's literally the entire point. The cruelty is not contingent on funding in either direction. It's simply a function of the task and the people carrying it out. More funding does not mean more cruelty. Less funding does not mean less cruelty. Nor the other way around.

    It's basically the same with camps. The entire thing all these looks inside the camps have shown is that the number of camps or staff they have is not a limiting factor on what they are doing. Which should be no surprise since there's no way they are letting people go free just because they don't have the space.

    Given the above the basic reasoning behind going for funding would be because then you avoid headlines about how you are responsible for the overcrowding because you refuse to properly fund border security and you can say "We gave you money Trump and yet it's still terrible, what are you diong?" and because it might lead to less overcrowding or more resources or something. Not saying I think it's the best play, but there's a case to be made there.

    The other point here is that the alternative doesn't solve anything either. Refusing funding is basically just a positioning strategy so you can say you had nothing to do with the issue and aren't responsible in any way.

    It's basically a matter of picking your media strategy here. Because nothing you do is gonna stop the camps beyond, like, oversight attached to funding bills. Which they already said and showed they won't allow.

    The bolded is most definitely false. Sure, the quality of the cruelty is independent of funds, but the quantity is assuredly improved by funding. More money means more ICE agents to steal more people, more computers to look for more people and more locations, more vehicles and fuel to conduct more raids, more people rounded up to be cruel to.

    The Dems may not be able to help the people that are locked up by cutting funding, but they sure as shit could have prevented more people from being locked up.

    The difference between 100,000 and 200,000 or any fucking number isn’t a statistic, they are real people and we’re gonna be torturing more of them now, not less. And any language that reduced the quantity of the torture isn’t gonna lessen, because that language was removed. Same quantity, just more of it.

    I don't think that's really true. AFAIK these people are border crossers for the most part, not people picked up in internal ICE raids or something. And the ridiculously overcrowded conditions we are already seeing are a pretty abject demonstration imo of the fact that they aren't really concerned with issues of available resources. There's not a ton of slack here they aren't already trying to pick up in terms of rounding people up.

    They're outright said this is the system working as they intended. The conditions are a feature not a bug.

  • Metzger MeisterMetzger Meister It Gets Worse before it gets any better.Registered User regular
    The attacker at the ICE detention center in Tacoma was specifically targeting vehicles and managed to burn several transport busses from what I've read.

  • Viktor WaltersViktor Walters Registered User regular
    Prohass wrote: »
    The guy that got killed they keep reporting that he was armed. And while it’s arguable the guy was being dangerous and putting lives at risk, he had flares and was trying to start fires, when it first got reported I thought he had guns

    He very explicitly was armed with an AR15, according to his own letter.

    Here's a Twitter thread from a verified UK based independent reporter covering it in a mostly unbiased way (this link goes directly to the letter left behind):



    It appears to mainly be a suicide by cop situation that doesn't really need to be in the conversation in the immigration thread.

  • TryCatcherTryCatcher Registered User regular
    edited July 2019
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The ostensible point of this endeavor is to be so cartoonishly cruel that people stop seeking asylum here.

    The problem is that Trump and company are too dim to realize that asylum seekers are generally fleeing for their lives, and so literally any treatment that is not murder is still a step up. It's hard to be so cruel to someone that they'll opt for death.

    Though I'm sure they'll keep trying.

    That only says that is a matter of time before they decide on a Final Solution to the problem.

    TryCatcher on
  • OrcaOrca Also known as Espressosaurus WrexRegistered User regular
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The ostensible point of this endeavor is to be so cartoonishly cruel that people stop seeking asylum here.

    The problem is that Trump and company are too dim to realize that asylum seekers are generally fleeing for their lives, and so literally any treatment that is not murder is still a step up. It's hard to be so cruel to someone that they'll opt for death.

    Though I'm sure they'll keep trying.

    That only says that is a matter of time before they decide on a Final Solution to the problem.

    And I have family members trying to tell me no, it's not a concentration camp. Fuck off.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The ostensible point of this endeavor is to be so cartoonishly cruel that people stop seeking asylum here.

    The problem is that Trump and company are too dim to realize that asylum seekers are generally fleeing for their lives, and so literally any treatment that is not murder is still a step up. It's hard to be so cruel to someone that they'll opt for death.

    Though I'm sure they'll keep trying.

    That only says that is a matter of time before they decide on a Final Solution to the problem.

    And I have family members trying to tell me no, it's not a concentration camp. Fuck off.

    Because we would never do such a thing. (This is America, you know.)
    We already did, once? Well, that's different. Somehow.

  • HenroidHenroid Mexican kicked from Immigration Thread Centrism is Racism :3Registered User regular
    DHS has changed its rules for asylum, effectively ending asylum altogether. They now say that asylum has to be applied for before crossing the border IN A DIFFERENT COUNTRY.

    PBS reporter:

  • PhasenPhasen Hell WorldRegistered User regular
    Orca wrote: »
    TryCatcher wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    The ostensible point of this endeavor is to be so cartoonishly cruel that people stop seeking asylum here.

    The problem is that Trump and company are too dim to realize that asylum seekers are generally fleeing for their lives, and so literally any treatment that is not murder is still a step up. It's hard to be so cruel to someone that they'll opt for death.

    Though I'm sure they'll keep trying.

    That only says that is a matter of time before they decide on a Final Solution to the problem.

    And I have family members trying to tell me no, it's not a concentration camp. Fuck off.

    Because we would never do such a thing. (This is America, you know.)
    We already did, once? Well, that's different. Somehow.

    America has had many concentration camps. A short but not total list https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_concentration_and_internment_camps#United_States_of_America

    Two missing off the top of my head the cuban and philippine concentration camps.

    psn: PhasenWeeple
  • [Expletive deleted][Expletive deleted] The mediocre doctor NorwayRegistered User regular
    Henroid wrote: »
    DHS has changed its rules for asylum, effectively ending asylum altogether. They now say that asylum has to be applied for before crossing the border IN A DIFFERENT COUNTRY.

    PBS reporter:

    That can't be legal.

    … not that that matters, of course, when you're (R).

    Sic transit gloria mundi.
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