The new abilities for Dark Knight have been rather underwhelming so far. I'm only 74, but I think the new ones I've seen are so far are just a harder hitting version of lower level abilities (the ones that give you the damage buff) and a second combo ability for the pbaoe (that I forget the name of). Not really all that exciting.
The new buff and the abilities that go along with it are ... ok, but its pretty trivial to keep up the buff, and the important thing to recognize is when to shield. I don't know if its just because I'm not in the new content yet, but I don't think that I've had to really fight for threat at all (but then again, I guess they took away the ability to catch up on threat with the second combo going away). I'm not disliking the class, but it just feels a little...empty I guess? I dunno quite how to put it.
The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett
The new abilities for Dark Knight have been rather underwhelming so far. I'm only 74, but I think the new ones I've seen are so far are just a harder hitting version of lower level abilities (the ones that give you the damage buff) and a second combo ability for the pbaoe (that I forget the name of). Not really all that exciting.
The new buff and the abilities that go along with it are ... ok, but its pretty trivial to keep up the buff, and the important thing to recognize is when to shield. I don't know if its just because I'm not in the new content yet, but I don't think that I've had to really fight for threat at all (but then again, I guess they took away the ability to catch up on threat with the second combo going away). I'm not disliking the class, but it just feels a little...empty I guess? I dunno quite how to put it.
I think they're trying to avoid ability bloat and giving classes new stuff just for the sake of having new stuff. It seems like they were looking at gaps in each class' kit and thinking about which gaps it made sense to fill. I haven't played enough of the new endgame stuff to know where they succeeded and where they didn't, though.
DRK does feel complete at 70, with the new stuff being just incremental upgrades. The party mitigation tool you get at 76(?) Is nice, and the 80 ability is shiny even it just ends up being a "press this on cooldown" button. With the changes to tank stance tank threat management is nearly completely gone (outside of provoke/shirk for tank swaps). It is just impossible for a DPS to rip threat off of you outside of AOE situations where you're missing a mob on the edge of the group or whatever.
I enjoy the job, it's my only tank I have at max level, but yeah it doesn't really change at all post 70.
That's just how threat is now, for all tanks, you just passively generate all the threat and no DPS or healer can catch up to you in a million years unless you just hit something once and kept running to grab more stuff. Even then it takes some work to peel something off you. They basically decided to excise threat as a mechanic that anyone has to think about except an occasional tank swap mechanic in 8 man content.
That's just how threat is now, for all tanks, you just passively generate all the threat and no DPS or healer can catch up to you in a million years unless you just hit something once and kept running to grab more stuff. Even then it takes some work to peel something off you. They basically decided to excise threat as a mechanic that anyone has to think about except an occasional tank swap mechanic in 8 man content.
Yeah, all the tanks feel very similiar on threat. Which is to say that I agree with the above; it's practically gone as a mechanic, in the sense that dps and tanks need to fight over it. It's still there as a mechanic to make sure the (main) tank is doing something and a switch to decide who the main tank is for boss mechanic resolution. Honestly, this is a very good change for tanks, in my opinion. It frees up the tank from worrying about both threat/sec output and their damage/second output and working to balance those as best as possible, with very limited information feedback. Not having to really micromanage threat puts the focus onto efficient dps rotation and mitigation cooldowns.
The new abilities for Dark Knight have been rather underwhelming so far. I'm only 74, but I think the new ones I've seen are so far are just a harder hitting version of lower level abilities (the ones that give you the damage buff) and a second combo ability for the pbaoe (that I forget the name of). Not really all that exciting.
The new buff and the abilities that go along with it are ... ok, but its pretty trivial to keep up the buff, and the important thing to recognize is when to shield. I don't know if its just because I'm not in the new content yet, but I don't think that I've had to really fight for threat at all (but then again, I guess they took away the ability to catch up on threat with the second combo going away). I'm not disliking the class, but it just feels a little...empty I guess? I dunno quite how to put it.
You've also basically described my experience leveling through ShB as Warrior. My 72 and 76 abilities are higher damage replacements for earlier actions, when conditions are met. My 76 is an amazingly good hp regen ability for myself and one other target. When I'm off-tanking, it's great. When doing 4-man content, it's a fantastic hp regen on trash. This is to say that all the tanks are in a very good spot and play similarly, while still retaining their own fiction and niches. But I still very much appreciate and approve of the 80 kit over the 70 kit. It's a very good middle ground between power-creep and stagnation.
I will say, for my money, Shadowbringers is the best tanking experience in the game thus far.
As for "threat catch-up" just use Provoke or a couple damage abilities, it's not an interesting mechanic for the tank to need to have tools to claw their way back up the threat list, just smash and go.
Threat is interesting in MMOs. If they trivialize it, it might as well not even exist. Which is where it sounds like we're at right now in Shadowbringers.
On the other side, if threat does exist, other people hate playing with it. Because other people tend to play the game that they want to play it, and that makes it the tank's problem to handle threat even it's actually the DPS at fault.
Like as an example, in 2.0, I started as a tank. I was a paladin. And I hated it. Because in 2.0 threat was very difficult to manage and maintain. If a DPS got a particularly strong crit, they usually pulled threat. Or if a Black Mage was overly aggressive and started with the AoE spam too early, they would pull threat. Or whatever. All sorts of problems. In 2.0, the combination of Blind and the blue floor lasers was barely enough to stay ahead of the DPS in an AoE situation. And try telling a mage to cool it and stop DPSing until you have a safety buffer. That's not gonna happen. They are 100% always going to tell you to threat harder and gitgud, even if there's literally nothing more you can do as a tank to hold threat.
I think the problem with threat is that it's difficult to tell if you're doing it well. With healing, you know if you fucked up. Everyone's dead. With DPS, you're always striving to have a bigger number. With threat, and specifically when threat is something you need to care about, it is invisible as to whether you are doing threat poorly or if the other player isn't playing correctly to respect the threat ramp up. No MMO has really seemed to find a way to visualize threat in a way to let you know that. Like that's the thing that's really frustrating when you jump from group to group as the non-tank is you do the same thing in every group and it feels completely random as to whether you pull threat or not because of the various differences in tank skill level. So, unless MMOs are going to put in the work to make it more clear whether threat is going well or not, I'm okay with it being functionally trivial.
i agree with all of that except it being interesting, because the various states of "having threat" themselves do not reward the player or the group in any meaningful sense
here's why threat management is a faux-interesting mechanic:
the only time threat matters is when you aren't doing enough, and it's a purely punitive outcome. what is the "positive outcome" of having enough threat? you get to do the encounter as normal with all of the normal barriers the encounter itself presents (with all of the opportunities to fuck up and fail)
whereas, when you don't have enough threat--
the encounter is essentially unwinnable, and other roles are penalized (dps, healers) for being too effective
and what happens when you have a surplus of threat? nothing at all
you don't see threat, more threat doesn't contribute in a meaningful way to completing the encounter; it doesn't improve your performance, make you more effective as a contributor of damage, or more defensively viable
i think treating tanks as another DPS with an added responsibility of also surviving direct contact with the boss/trash is actually brilliant. tank swaps are also a cool mechanic that require finesse, because you're interacting usually with debuffs and their duration/severity in combination with not-quite-lethal attacks, so there's forethought, and rewards to be found in finding the "optimal" path
but threat in a vacuum? i often compare it to Breath of the Wild's weapon degradation mechanics. yeah, it's there, it's a fully realized mechanic... but I don't think it adds any value at all to the core gameplay experience. it's neutral at best trending to negative
I think the problem with threat is that it's difficult to tell if you're doing it well. With healing, you know if you fucked up. Everyone's dead. With DPS, you're always striving to have a bigger number. With threat, and specifically when threat is something you need to care about, it is invisible as to whether you are doing threat poorly or if the other player isn't playing correctly to respect the threat ramp up. No MMO has really seemed to find a way to visualize threat in a way to let you know that. Like that's the thing that's really frustrating when you jump from group to group as the non-tank is you do the same thing in every group and it feels completely random as to whether you pull threat or not because of the various differences in tank skill level. So, unless MMOs are going to put in the work to make it more clear whether threat is going well or not, I'm okay with it being functionally trivial.
World of Warcraft seemed to come closest, but that was with added mods (and even then, it was per mob, afaik.) The key to getting a good idea of threat is being able to see threat/second. Because the real key isn't seeing absolute numbers, it's about seeing how the tank is faring in comparison to everyone else, like in a race. You don't really care who is in first, you care about knowing if you're on track to overtake or be overtaken.
WoW also came up with this really silly community rule back in the day. "3 stacks of sunder before you attack." That generally gave the tank enough buffer that the first time a mage PoM+Pyros, they don't lose threat. Or if the tank knew they were with a PoM+Pyro Mage they'd say they wanted 4 or 5 stacks of sunder before the mage opened up. Because back then there was only 1 tank choice.
By the time other tank choices became available, threat was already a non-issue.
I like the idea of threat. I just think we're still waiting on a video game to come along and do it well. And honestly I don't think threat modifiers are the key.
Threat is really just an AI approximation of who the enemy should be attacking. If you wanted to design smart encounters, the AI would target healers and squishy DPS targets first and ignore the tanks. When I play Pen and Paper RPGs, as the DM, I always try to pick off the healers first when I'm controlling a group of enemies. Of course, that also depends on the intelligence level of the enemies. If it's a pack of wolves, they might just randomly attack whoever is closest to them. Proximity aggro. Or they might attack a target that is bleeding. If the enemies are a group of intelligent humanoids, then I make them attack the healers and clothies first.
In PnP RPGs, a tank has to make themselves a physical barrier. They have to get in the way and position themselves in such a manner that the enemy has no choice but to deal with the tank before they can get to their true target. And smart positioning and aggressive playstyle are much closer to what "real threat" is.
Video games need to use hitboxes and positioning more as a strategic tool.
That was one of the things I liked the best about Warhammer Online. That game had full player collision and the way that a tank tanked was by getting in the way and making themselves a nuisance that had to be dealt with.
I like the idea of threat. I just think we're still waiting on a video game to come along and do it well. And honestly I don't think threat modifiers are the key.
Threat is really just an AI approximation of who the enemy should be attacking. If you wanted to design smart encounters, the AI would target healers and squishy DPS targets first and ignore the tanks. When I play Pen and Paper RPGs, as the DM, I always try to pick off the healers first when I'm controlling a group of enemies. Of course, that also depends on the intelligence level of the enemies. If it's a pack of wolves, they might just randomly attack whoever is closest to them. Proximity aggro. Or they might attack a target that is bleeding. If the enemies are a group of intelligent humanoids, then I make them attack the healers and clothies first.
In PnP RPGs, a tank has to make themselves a physical barrier. They have to get in the way and position themselves in such a manner that the enemy has no choice but to deal with the tank before they can get to their true target. And smart positioning and aggressive playstyle are much closer to what "real threat" is.
Video games need to use hitboxes and positioning more as a strategic tool.
That was one of the things I liked the best about Warhammer Online. That game had full player collision and the way that a tank tanked was by getting in the way and making themselves a nuisance that had to be dealt with.
I remember clogging keep doors with my body and drop down mailboxes. Honestly every mmo I ever try from then on gets compared to how WAR did stuff.
I enjoy threat in group content. It lets you do things as a tank like deliberately losing threat momentarily in order to spread the damage around and minimize overheal or prevent the tank from getting gibbed immediately by a huge spike of damage. It can turn the HP buffer before death from just the tank to the entire party. I also liked it in raid content for the most part so long as it was the entire group's responsibility and not just the tank's. However, since DPS already have a lot of responsibility, throwing extra threat management mechanics at them can be a bit much and optimal play basically calls for tanks to minimize their threat generating ability usage. I miss the threat game for group content, but understand why they removed it for the trial/EX/Savage content.
I think the problem with threat is that it's difficult to tell if you're doing it well. With healing, you know if you fucked up. Everyone's dead. With DPS, you're always striving to have a bigger number.
I'd go so far as to say healing is in and of itself easier than being a Tank/DPS in this game - it's the other players that make it difficult. Which... yeah.
It's not like WoW where encounters are designed to be a constant fuck you to healers at all times regardless of individual performance - healing demands are normally predictable enough in ShB even in Savage that the only reason anyone will typically die is if that individual fucked up a mechanic. Usually that will outright kill them so hard no healing would have saved them anyway, but the rest of the time, how much pressure is put on us beyond the big scripted aoes is entirely dependent on the rest of the team being where they're supposed to be at a given time.
I like the idea of threat. I just think we're still waiting on a video game to come along and do it well. And honestly I don't think threat modifiers are the key.
Threat is really just an AI approximation of who the enemy should be attacking. If you wanted to design smart encounters, the AI would target healers and squishy DPS targets first and ignore the tanks. When I play Pen and Paper RPGs, as the DM, I always try to pick off the healers first when I'm controlling a group of enemies. Of course, that also depends on the intelligence level of the enemies. If it's a pack of wolves, they might just randomly attack whoever is closest to them. Proximity aggro. Or they might attack a target that is bleeding. If the enemies are a group of intelligent humanoids, then I make them attack the healers and clothies first.
In PnP RPGs, a tank has to make themselves a physical barrier. They have to get in the way and position themselves in such a manner that the enemy has no choice but to deal with the tank before they can get to their true target. And smart positioning and aggressive playstyle are much closer to what "real threat" is.
Video games need to use hitboxes and positioning more as a strategic tool.
That was one of the things I liked the best about Warhammer Online. That game had full player collision and the way that a tank tanked was by getting in the way and making themselves a nuisance that had to be dealt with.
This is what makes the tank role fun in overwatch, tbh
+1
AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Healing at 80 and using all my healing buttons is so much fun
I should start dipping my toes into the raid and maybe Extreme trials, as it's a bit surprising that the dungeons at cap so far are pretty chill to heal in, even with double pulls.
an action-RPG MMO with good responsiveness and no ping problems could be awesome, something that controls like a souls or a monster hunter or a dragon's dogma, that would be right up my alley. And an idea of tanking in that kind of game's context where it means physically blocking shit from getting by you could be interesting. That's definitely a different game than FF14 or WoW or the others in this mold though.
Given how easy keeping threat is, i have had a really bad string of tanks who just, can't.
Almost always dark knights not using any aoe, or just using it once (sometimes even hit all the mobs) and then focusing all damage on single target attacks at one target.
Another weird thing is paladins with no shield.
Is that a thing now? Is there a hide shield option? Glamour that makes it go away? Or are there now just paladins who for some reason forgot about shields wandering about?
0
reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Oh god these Arcanist class quests, it's like if you gave turbonerds actual magic powers and filled a guild with them.
the jobs it splits into are basically two different flavors of archaeologist, and neither of them ever stop being turbonerds
that's what happens when you pick the class that fights with a book
I've found that class quests for Summoner and Scholar kinda suffer from having someone else do so much of the actual scholarship and studying.
I enjoy the stories, they are pretty great, i just wish my character was more involved in the pre combat parts.
Not done the 60 to 70 stories though, will do them in one go once i hit 70 and have level appropriate gear.
Oh god these Arcanist class quests, it's like if you gave turbonerds actual magic powers and filled a guild with them.
the jobs it splits into are basically two different flavors of archaeologist, and neither of them ever stop being turbonerds
that's what happens when you pick the class that fights with a book
I've found that class quests for Summoner and Scholar kinda suffer from having someone else do so much of the actual scholarship and studying.
I enjoy the stories, they are pretty great, i just wish my character was more involved in the pre combat parts.
Not done the 60 to 70 stories though, will do them in one go once i hit 70 and have level appropriate gear.
Eh, SCH you do the studying once you find the right teacher. SMN yeah, you're a research assistant with unique skills for a while, though the SB quest line is better.
admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Through 2.4. The MSQ grind is real, though I'm enjoying the story and characters a lot. It just needs less filler quests.
I was worried when we went back to the frozen elf lands because I strongly disliked that place in 2.0, but the over-the-top Haurchefant, and the new characters Aymeric, and Iceheart were all really enjoyable.
I also got to do Odin and Ultima, which are the first trials I've wiped on, and they were really fun. I'm hoping I'll be able to get into more trials like that pre-80, but the ARR Extreme queues seem to be infinite for DPS.
Posts
I'm more interested in that 4 seater mount from the raids that drops in Savage. It's so absurdly massive. I'm not good enough for Savage, though :<
The new buff and the abilities that go along with it are ... ok, but its pretty trivial to keep up the buff, and the important thing to recognize is when to shield. I don't know if its just because I'm not in the new content yet, but I don't think that I've had to really fight for threat at all (but then again, I guess they took away the ability to catch up on threat with the second combo going away). I'm not disliking the class, but it just feels a little...empty I guess? I dunno quite how to put it.
I think they're trying to avoid ability bloat and giving classes new stuff just for the sake of having new stuff. It seems like they were looking at gaps in each class' kit and thinking about which gaps it made sense to fill. I haven't played enough of the new endgame stuff to know where they succeeded and where they didn't, though.
I enjoy the job, it's my only tank I have at max level, but yeah it doesn't really change at all post 70.
Yeah, all the tanks feel very similiar on threat. Which is to say that I agree with the above; it's practically gone as a mechanic, in the sense that dps and tanks need to fight over it. It's still there as a mechanic to make sure the (main) tank is doing something and a switch to decide who the main tank is for boss mechanic resolution. Honestly, this is a very good change for tanks, in my opinion. It frees up the tank from worrying about both threat/sec output and their damage/second output and working to balance those as best as possible, with very limited information feedback. Not having to really micromanage threat puts the focus onto efficient dps rotation and mitigation cooldowns.
You've also basically described my experience leveling through ShB as Warrior. My 72 and 76 abilities are higher damage replacements for earlier actions, when conditions are met. My 76 is an amazingly good hp regen ability for myself and one other target. When I'm off-tanking, it's great. When doing 4-man content, it's a fantastic hp regen on trash. This is to say that all the tanks are in a very good spot and play similarly, while still retaining their own fiction and niches. But I still very much appreciate and approve of the 80 kit over the 70 kit. It's a very good middle ground between power-creep and stagnation.
I will say, for my money, Shadowbringers is the best tanking experience in the game thus far.
As for "threat catch-up" just use Provoke or a couple damage abilities, it's not an interesting mechanic for the tank to need to have tools to claw their way back up the threat list, just smash and go.
On the other side, if threat does exist, other people hate playing with it. Because other people tend to play the game that they want to play it, and that makes it the tank's problem to handle threat even it's actually the DPS at fault.
Like as an example, in 2.0, I started as a tank. I was a paladin. And I hated it. Because in 2.0 threat was very difficult to manage and maintain. If a DPS got a particularly strong crit, they usually pulled threat. Or if a Black Mage was overly aggressive and started with the AoE spam too early, they would pull threat. Or whatever. All sorts of problems. In 2.0, the combination of Blind and the blue floor lasers was barely enough to stay ahead of the DPS in an AoE situation. And try telling a mage to cool it and stop DPSing until you have a safety buffer. That's not gonna happen. They are 100% always going to tell you to threat harder and gitgud, even if there's literally nothing more you can do as a tank to hold threat.
here's why threat management is a faux-interesting mechanic:
the only time threat matters is when you aren't doing enough, and it's a purely punitive outcome. what is the "positive outcome" of having enough threat? you get to do the encounter as normal with all of the normal barriers the encounter itself presents (with all of the opportunities to fuck up and fail)
whereas, when you don't have enough threat--
the encounter is essentially unwinnable, and other roles are penalized (dps, healers) for being too effective
and what happens when you have a surplus of threat? nothing at all
you don't see threat, more threat doesn't contribute in a meaningful way to completing the encounter; it doesn't improve your performance, make you more effective as a contributor of damage, or more defensively viable
i think treating tanks as another DPS with an added responsibility of also surviving direct contact with the boss/trash is actually brilliant. tank swaps are also a cool mechanic that require finesse, because you're interacting usually with debuffs and their duration/severity in combination with not-quite-lethal attacks, so there's forethought, and rewards to be found in finding the "optimal" path
but threat in a vacuum? i often compare it to Breath of the Wild's weapon degradation mechanics. yeah, it's there, it's a fully realized mechanic... but I don't think it adds any value at all to the core gameplay experience. it's neutral at best trending to negative
World of Warcraft seemed to come closest, but that was with added mods (and even then, it was per mob, afaik.) The key to getting a good idea of threat is being able to see threat/second. Because the real key isn't seeing absolute numbers, it's about seeing how the tank is faring in comparison to everyone else, like in a race. You don't really care who is in first, you care about knowing if you're on track to overtake or be overtaken.
By the time other tank choices became available, threat was already a non-issue.
There's no aggro reset.
Threat is really just an AI approximation of who the enemy should be attacking. If you wanted to design smart encounters, the AI would target healers and squishy DPS targets first and ignore the tanks. When I play Pen and Paper RPGs, as the DM, I always try to pick off the healers first when I'm controlling a group of enemies. Of course, that also depends on the intelligence level of the enemies. If it's a pack of wolves, they might just randomly attack whoever is closest to them. Proximity aggro. Or they might attack a target that is bleeding. If the enemies are a group of intelligent humanoids, then I make them attack the healers and clothies first.
In PnP RPGs, a tank has to make themselves a physical barrier. They have to get in the way and position themselves in such a manner that the enemy has no choice but to deal with the tank before they can get to their true target. And smart positioning and aggressive playstyle are much closer to what "real threat" is.
Video games need to use hitboxes and positioning more as a strategic tool.
That was one of the things I liked the best about Warhammer Online. That game had full player collision and the way that a tank tanked was by getting in the way and making themselves a nuisance that had to be dealt with.
I remember clogging keep doors with my body and drop down mailboxes. Honestly every mmo I ever try from then on gets compared to how WAR did stuff.
I'd go so far as to say healing is in and of itself easier than being a Tank/DPS in this game - it's the other players that make it difficult. Which... yeah.
It's not like WoW where encounters are designed to be a constant fuck you to healers at all times regardless of individual performance - healing demands are normally predictable enough in ShB even in Savage that the only reason anyone will typically die is if that individual fucked up a mechanic. Usually that will outright kill them so hard no healing would have saved them anyway, but the rest of the time, how much pressure is put on us beyond the big scripted aoes is entirely dependent on the rest of the team being where they're supposed to be at a given time.
This is what makes the tank role fun in overwatch, tbh
I should start dipping my toes into the raid and maybe Extreme trials, as it's a bit surprising that the dungeons at cap so far are pretty chill to heal in, even with double pulls.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
Almost always dark knights not using any aoe, or just using it once (sometimes even hit all the mobs) and then focusing all damage on single target attacks at one target.
Another weird thing is paladins with no shield.
Is that a thing now? Is there a hide shield option? Glamour that makes it go away? Or are there now just paladins who for some reason forgot about shields wandering about?
Want to boss people around? Queue with your friends i don't give a shit about your time it's no more valuable then mine.
Good to know.
Not a fan.
the jobs it splits into are basically two different flavors of archaeologist, and neither of them ever stop being turbonerds
that's what happens when you pick the class that fights with a book
The Feast is such a pain to queue for though.
I enjoy the stories, they are pretty great, i just wish my character was more involved in the pre combat parts.
Not done the 60 to 70 stories though, will do them in one go once i hit 70 and have level appropriate gear.
Eh, SCH you do the studying once you find the right teacher. SMN yeah, you're a research assistant with unique skills for a while, though the SB quest line is better.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
what happens if you fantasia off of lalafell inside a dwarf house?
Until October.
And for some silly reason it isnt added to the calamity salvager on getting the PLD achievement.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
There are a few constant in Eorzea. One of them is that GLD/PLD quests will always suck.
if there's not a Feast season between now and 5.1 it will be Very Rude of them
"...only mights and maybes."
LA HEE
I was worried when we went back to the frozen elf lands because I strongly disliked that place in 2.0, but the over-the-top Haurchefant, and the new characters Aymeric, and Iceheart were all really enjoyable.
I also got to do Odin and Ultima, which are the first trials I've wiped on, and they were really fun. I'm hoping I'll be able to get into more trials like that pre-80, but the ARR Extreme queues seem to be infinite for DPS.