Metzger MeisterIt Gets Worsebefore it gets any better.Registered Userregular
Also American police are pretty shooty and I can see a mass movement against the camps being greeter with what you might call a hail of gunfire and chemical weapons.
By the time good people realized their situation in Germany, the choice was to keep quiet or join the Jews in the death camps. Many did the latter, but it didn't stop the death camps (though the risks people like them took did save many Jewish people.)
What was actually being done to Jews wasn’t even really public knowledge in Germany up until the end of the war (though plenty of people probably guessed). There were camps and ghettos that were supposedly there so the Jews could be held until the end of the war, when they would be “deported and resettled”. The Nazis even made fake videos of Jewish children playing in play grounds and Jewish people hanging out at the beach and the like.
Nope. There were more than 40,000 slave labor units in German cities visible marching through the streets to everyone who cared to look, and the stories from the camps was ubiquitous. The idea that the average German didn't know is Cold War propaganda, which we did a lot of to rehabilitate the image of the Germans on our side.
It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together after seeing Jews being transported en masse and the Nazi beliefs and extremely public actions towards Jews up to that pont.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
Besides all that, we can see what is going on. How the Germans reacted to the Nazis is whataboutism at best.
It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together after seeing Jews being transported en masse and the Nazi beliefs and extremely public actions towards Jews up to that pont.
There are a lot of people who can be very stupid when they need to be to live with themselves.
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WACriminalDying Is Easy, Young ManLiving Is HarderRegistered Userregular
So the honest answer is that yes, you could dismantle one of these camps with a certain number of people and a certain amount of equipment. Triple/quadruple/whatever that number and you might even be able to do it without bloodshed.
But how do you organize that many people in secret without getting outed as "a terrorist cell" by somebody who gets cold feet? Once you liberate the camp, where do you take its inhabitants? Do you kill the federal agents you find there? If not, how do you prevent them from retaining information that leads to you being discovered after the fact? (a license plate number, an exposed tattoo, a glimpse at your face, any small mistake that you or one of your accomplices made) Do you and your accomplices have jobs? If not, how do you acquire the equipment you need? If so, does your plan require you taking time off from work? Isn't that suspicious, if you (likely a known "radical leftist" if you're thinking about this in the first place) take time off for no apparent reason, a nearby camp gets raided like this, and then you come back to work with a weird bruise or something, does your MAGA-head coworker in the next cubicle report this as suspicious?
And above all, how do you muster the mental, emotional, and actual physical energy to plan and execute all this while surviving in an intentionally oppressive and exhausting capitalist hellscape?
I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. (And, mods, I'm also not saying it should.) What I'm saying is that there are LOTS of factors besides just "do we care enough" and "are we brave enough".
By the time good people realized their situation in Germany, the choice was to keep quiet or join the Jews in the death camps. Many did the latter, but it didn't stop the death camps (though the risks people like them took did save many Jewish people.)
What was actually being done to Jews wasn’t even really public knowledge in Germany up until the end of the war (though plenty of people probably guessed). There were camps and ghettos that were supposedly there so the Jews could be held until the end of the war, when they would be “deported and resettled”. The Nazis even made fake videos of Jewish children playing in play grounds and Jewish people hanging out at the beach and the like.
Makes me think of that movie the island or whatever with the clones. I'm not even sure I knew this detail about the nazis.
It doesn't take a genius to put two and two together after seeing Jews being transported en masse and the Nazi beliefs and extremely public actions towards Jews up to that pont.
By the time good people realized their situation in Germany, the choice was to keep quiet or join the Jews in the death camps. Many did the latter, but it didn't stop the death camps (though the risks people like them took did save many Jewish people.)
What was actually being done to Jews wasn’t even really public knowledge in Germany up until the end of the war (though plenty of people probably guessed). There were camps and ghettos that were supposedly there so the Jews could be held until the end of the war, when they would be “deported and resettled”. The Nazis even made fake videos of Jewish children playing in play grounds and Jewish people hanging out at the beach and the like.
Nope. There were more than 40,000 slave labor units in German cities visible marching through the streets to everyone who cared to look, and the stories from the camps was ubiquitous. The idea that the average German didn't know is Cold War propaganda, which we did a lot of to rehabilitate the image of the Germans on our side.
There's a reason the Dutch use the phrase "wir haben es nicht gewußt" to deride claims of ignorance deemed to be bullshit. It is probable that a lot of Germans didn't know about the full extent of the Holocaust, but they absolutely knew about the slave labour camps and the conditions therein. Aside from the fact that you'd have to very gullible to believe the occasional propaganda from the government, there was plenty of talk and argument that the Jews should be treated like shit and deserved very little comfort.
The American people are not going to forcibly liberate their own concentration camps.
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JuliusCaptain of Serenityon my shipRegistered Userregular
To make it analogous to the current US situation: It wasn't denied that prisoners only had aluminium blankets and little room, and no toothpaste or soap , it was seen as proof of the kindness and humanity of Germans that they provided them with those things.
Old trick. Once you deny a group's humanity, you can frame any minimal effort for them as magnanimous.
(Jeff Yang is a frequent contributor to CNN's opinion pieces and has written a number of books about the experience of being an Asian-American.)
I feel like this had been discussed either earlier in this thread or in a previous incarnation when we first learned about these proposed changes to policy, but... now they're actually being implemented.
I think this is not new, when I emigrated to the US I signed a lot of things about how I was ineligible for any benefits. Perhaps other immigrant visas didn't used to have that?
I think this is not new, when I emigrated to the US I signed a lot of things about how I was ineligible for any benefits. Perhaps other immigrant visas didn't used to have that?
Were you applying a green card for permanent legal residence?
I should point out that green cards are needed for legal work eligibility, so immigrants that can not get legal status cant work, so they need to use welfare to survive, so they cant get a green card to work. I know this is by design but it is just so terrible. It will be particularity bad for seasonal workers who rely on some form of benefits part of the year.
I know at least one person I work with that left the country because he was afraid despite being a legal resident.
He's a shy overambitious dog-catcher on the wrong side of the law. She's an orphaned psychic mercenary with the power to bend men's minds. They fight crime!
They're trying to stop immigration. All of it.
(Unless you're rich and white enough, I mean.)
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Just received a notice I need to apply for something green card related. It is several months early, wasn't expecting to hear from them til December. Wonder if this is it for me. :I
I should point out that green cards are needed for legal work eligibility, so immigrants that can not get legal status cant work, so they need to use welfare to survive, so they cant get a green card to work. I know this is by design but it is just so terrible. It will be particularity bad for seasonal workers who rely on some form of benefits part of the year.
I know at least one person I work with that left the country because he was afraid despite being a legal resident.
It depends on the kind of visa. In a refugee Visa, you can work legally before getting a green card. Most refugees are going to need public assistance for a couple of years this they get their feet under them though even with working.
I think this is not new, when I emigrated to the US I signed a lot of things about how I was ineligible for any benefits. Perhaps other immigrant visas didn't used to have that?
The public charge test isn't new, but they're expanding which programs may qualify you as a public charge; namely: Medicaid, food stamps, and HUD assistance.
They're also changing the threshold from being 'primarily dependent' on such programs, to 'likely to need at some point' with an income test:
Under the rule, green card and visa applicants can be denied not merely for being "primarily dependent on the government for subsistence," as in the past, but if they are likely to need public assistance "at any time."
The regulations also add new requirements for income and financial assets. Advocates say that will make it difficult for immigrants earning less than 250 percent of the federal poverty guidelines (more than $64,000 for a family of four) to get green cards, although the administration argues that the limit is closer to 125 percent of poverty.
Just received a notice I need to apply for something green card related. It is several months early, wasn't expecting to hear from them til December. Wonder if this is it for me. :I
Fingers crossed that you can dodge all this nonsense.
The evening news covered this, NBC I think, and when they did they actually did the effort to take note of how many immigrants in the US make up Medicaid and Food Stamp use. It was like 6.5% for Medicaid and 8% for Food Stamps.
I think this is not new, when I emigrated to the US I signed a lot of things about how I was ineligible for any benefits. Perhaps other immigrant visas didn't used to have that?
The public charge test isn't new, but they're expanding which programs may qualify you as a public charge; namely: Medicaid, food stamps, and HUD assistance.
They're also changing the threshold from being 'primarily dependent' on such programs, to 'likely to need at some point' with an income test:
Under the rule, green card and visa applicants can be denied not merely for being "primarily dependent on the government for subsistence," as in the past, but if they are likely to need public assistance "at any time."
The regulations also add new requirements for income and financial assets. Advocates say that will make it difficult for immigrants earning less than 250 percent of the federal poverty guidelines (more than $64,000 for a family of four) to get green cards, although the administration argues that the limit is closer to 125 percent of poverty.
Keep in mind the changes to this mean that if an American citizen in the household uses any of these programs, the legal immigrants in the household will be penalized under this.
Sick of being told that the Statue of Liberty poem welcomes the tired, poor and wretched, immigration czar Cuccinelli comes up with the Trumpiest answer: rewrite the poem.
NPR's Rachel Martin asked Ken Cuccinelli, the acting head of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, if he agreed that the words etched on the Statue of Liberty are part of the American ethos. The poem, written by Emma Lazarus, says: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
"Uh, they certainly are," Cuccinelli replied. "Give me your tired and your poor who can stand on their own two feet and who will not become a public charge."
ya if they could stand on their own two feet they wouldn't exactly be tired, poor or wretched would they you heartless fuck
There is at least one person who tried, and died, to do something about it. Currently the situation is that ICE and CBP will kill you for direct action. These camps are heavily armed and have the legal authority to keep people out.
The only ways these camps shut down is either taking legal control of the system and shutting them down, or a mass action that is likely to see many, many people killed.
Currently the people trying to do something are going with the former. Its very easy to ask where the line is for the American people, but very different to walk towards the guns.
I'm not trying throw any shade here, at any camp. Just a reminder that these are heavily armed federal agents and that direct actions have already resulted in direct consequences.
Except for concentration camps. Throw all the shade at those.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
"Give me your tired and your poor who can stand on their own two feet and who will not become a public charge."
But not if they have a job and won't become "a public charge" because then they are stealing the jobs of Americans.
Or would he prefer "Give me your white and whiter and your whitest."?
Poor people are bad, because they might become "a public charge." Working people are bad because they are "stealing jobs." So the only conclusion is that he only wants rich people. Bring me your Oil Sheiks and your Oligarchs stashing wealth outside the dictatorships they stole it from.
Sick of being told that the Statue of Liberty poem welcomes the tired, poor and wretched, immigration czar Cuccinelli comes up with the Trumpiest answer: rewrite the poem.
NPR's Rachel Martin asked Ken Cuccinelli, the acting head of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, if he agreed that the words etched on the Statue of Liberty are part of the American ethos. The poem, written by Emma Lazarus, says: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
"Uh, they certainly are," Cuccinelli replied. "Give me your tired and your poor who can stand on their own two feet and who will not become a public charge."
ya if they could stand on their own two feet they wouldn't exactly be tired, poor or wretched would they you heartless fuck
I guess putting "Arbeit macht frei" on there would be to subtle for them.
Sick of being told that the Statue of Liberty poem welcomes the tired, poor and wretched, immigration czar Cuccinelli comes up with the Trumpiest answer: rewrite the poem.
NPR's Rachel Martin asked Ken Cuccinelli, the acting head of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, if he agreed that the words etched on the Statue of Liberty are part of the American ethos. The poem, written by Emma Lazarus, says: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
"Uh, they certainly are," Cuccinelli replied. "Give me your tired and your poor who can stand on their own two feet and who will not become a public charge."
ya if they could stand on their own two feet they wouldn't exactly be tired, poor or wretched would they you heartless fuck
I guess putting "Arbeit macht frei" on there would be to subtle for them.
Sick of being told that the Statue of Liberty poem welcomes the tired, poor and wretched, immigration czar Cuccinelli comes up with the Trumpiest answer: rewrite the poem.
NPR's Rachel Martin asked Ken Cuccinelli, the acting head of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, if he agreed that the words etched on the Statue of Liberty are part of the American ethos. The poem, written by Emma Lazarus, says: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"
"Uh, they certainly are," Cuccinelli replied. "Give me your tired and your poor who can stand on their own two feet and who will not become a public charge."
ya if they could stand on their own two feet they wouldn't exactly be tired, poor or wretched would they you heartless fuck
I guess putting "Arbeit macht frei" on there would be to subtle for them.
work is so gauche though.
redx on
They moistly come out at night, moistly.
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
George Takei was on Seth Meyers last night and spoke about the Japanese-American internment camps (and his time in one as a child). In case anyone has never heard him talk about it before, this is a good chance.
I'm sharing this here under the context of immigration policy and the Trump administration's agenda - that under the guise of immigration specifically (but it's not), they're targeting non-whites in a cruel manner. Also, historical context for the country and how fucked up it's been.
Just received a notice I need to apply for something green card related. It is several months early, wasn't expecting to hear from them til December. Wonder if this is it for me. :I
Have a lawyer ready and hopefully this isn't some shitty bait / trap the government is setting up. Be well Raven.
"Only European immigrants shouldn't be treated like shit, everyone else can go fuck themselves." Yeah we get it Trump administration.
If they actually *did* let Europeans immigrate freely, they'd find that American racists are quite capable of hating the lily-white. I know this because one of the main causes of Brexit was British people (lily white) hating Polish (lily white) immigrants.
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Nope. There were more than 40,000 slave labor units in German cities visible marching through the streets to everyone who cared to look, and the stories from the camps was ubiquitous. The idea that the average German didn't know is Cold War propaganda, which we did a lot of to rehabilitate the image of the Germans on our side.
There are a lot of people who can be very stupid when they need to be to live with themselves.
But how do you organize that many people in secret without getting outed as "a terrorist cell" by somebody who gets cold feet? Once you liberate the camp, where do you take its inhabitants? Do you kill the federal agents you find there? If not, how do you prevent them from retaining information that leads to you being discovered after the fact? (a license plate number, an exposed tattoo, a glimpse at your face, any small mistake that you or one of your accomplices made) Do you and your accomplices have jobs? If not, how do you acquire the equipment you need? If so, does your plan require you taking time off from work? Isn't that suspicious, if you (likely a known "radical leftist" if you're thinking about this in the first place) take time off for no apparent reason, a nearby camp gets raided like this, and then you come back to work with a weird bruise or something, does your MAGA-head coworker in the next cubicle report this as suspicious?
And above all, how do you muster the mental, emotional, and actual physical energy to plan and execute all this while surviving in an intentionally oppressive and exhausting capitalist hellscape?
I'm not saying it shouldn't be done. (And, mods, I'm also not saying it should.) What I'm saying is that there are LOTS of factors besides just "do we care enough" and "are we brave enough".
Makes me think of that movie the island or whatever with the clones. I'm not even sure I knew this detail about the nazis.
*looks around at the present situation in the US*
I... hrm. Not sure what to say here tbh.
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There's a reason the Dutch use the phrase "wir haben es nicht gewußt" to deride claims of ignorance deemed to be bullshit. It is probable that a lot of Germans didn't know about the full extent of the Holocaust, but they absolutely knew about the slave labour camps and the conditions therein. Aside from the fact that you'd have to very gullible to believe the occasional propaganda from the government, there was plenty of talk and argument that the Jews should be treated like shit and deserved very little comfort.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Old trick. Once you deny a group's humanity, you can frame any minimal effort for them as magnanimous.
(Vanita Gupta is President and CEO of The Leadership Conference on Civil and Human Rights, and former head of USDOJ Civil Rights Division.)
(Jeff Yang is a frequent contributor to CNN's opinion pieces and has written a number of books about the experience of being an Asian-American.)
I feel like this had been discussed either earlier in this thread or in a previous incarnation when we first learned about these proposed changes to policy, but... now they're actually being implemented.
Absolutely disgusting. Indefensible.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Were you applying a green card for permanent legal residence?
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
I know at least one person I work with that left the country because he was afraid despite being a legal resident.
(Unless you're rich and white enough, I mean.)
It depends on the kind of visa. In a refugee Visa, you can work legally before getting a green card. Most refugees are going to need public assistance for a couple of years this they get their feet under them though even with working.
The public charge test isn't new, but they're expanding which programs may qualify you as a public charge; namely: Medicaid, food stamps, and HUD assistance.
They're also changing the threshold from being 'primarily dependent' on such programs, to 'likely to need at some point' with an income test:
https://www.npr.org/2019/08/12/748328652/trump-administration-rule-would-penalize-immigrants-for-using-benefits
Fingers crossed that you can dodge all this nonsense.
Keep in mind the changes to this mean that if an American citizen in the household uses any of these programs, the legal immigrants in the household will be penalized under this.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
ya if they could stand on their own two feet they wouldn't exactly be tired, poor or wretched would they you heartless fuck
But not if they have a job and won't become "a public charge" because then they are stealing the jobs of Americans.
Except for concentration camps. Throw all the shade at those.
Or would he prefer "Give me your white and whiter and your whitest."?
Poor people are bad, because they might become "a public charge." Working people are bad because they are "stealing jobs." So the only conclusion is that he only wants rich people. Bring me your Oil Sheiks and your Oligarchs stashing wealth outside the dictatorships they stole it from.
I guess putting "Arbeit macht frei" on there would be to subtle for them.
For the rest: 'Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?'
That sounds foreign! Get him!
work is so gauche though.
I'm sharing this here under the context of immigration policy and the Trump administration's agenda - that under the guise of immigration specifically (but it's not), they're targeting non-whites in a cruel manner. Also, historical context for the country and how fucked up it's been.
MSNBC producer:
I am not sure you can get much more openly white supremacist than that.
Wait until he finds out that Spain is part of Europe and that Europe has brown people.
If they actually *did* let Europeans immigrate freely, they'd find that American racists are quite capable of hating the lily-white. I know this because one of the main causes of Brexit was British people (lily white) hating Polish (lily white) immigrants.