And for some reason Wesley shows up in a Lieutenant’s dress uniform at the wedding in Nemesis. That movie was so so very bad.
Eh, Q shows up in a captain's uniform most of the time, and is decidedly not in Starfleet. I can forgive it.
But that doesn’t explain the cut scene dialogue where he talks about being an engineer on the Titan (Riker’s new ship)...
I mean it's hard to hold cutting-room footage against the film
Uh, someone wrote shit that clearly showed they hadn’t paid attention to the show, which seems entirely relevant to discussions about the quality of the film. Especially given the wider context of a director who was openly disdainful of Star Trek.
I remember reading the entire screenplay at the time (it leaked) and I don't remember Wesley even being mentioned. So it sounds like someone, in the middle of production, decided "you know this somehow still makes too much sense" so they threw all that in for good measure.
+1
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
I don’t know where I saw it, but I like the explanation that Traveller!Wesley popped into the wedding naked because he assumed it would be a Betazoid ceremony, and the uniform just happened to be the closest clothes at hand.
Doesn’t completely fit since replicators exist, but there you go.
The wedding scene is the only thing I like about Nemesis. Troi/Riker 5eva.
I have seen the same explanation. I think I remember it bring Will Wheaton's own personal explanation for why he was wearing the uniform. I think I heard it at a Q&A he did at the PAX 2007.
Either that or it's a Red Letter Media thing and I'm just getting myself confused.
Just saw the Cardassian orphan episode and thought it was really good. That was one of those moral dilemmas where I really had a difficult time determining what should be done. At the end of the day I’m sad with the option Sisko went with but given the situation I can’t say it was the wrong option.
There’s also a sense in which a Carsassian who is the son of a political leader, and was educated by Bajorans about what the Cardassians did and then sent back to Cardassia, is a potentially a good motivator for social change.
The whole "tired of fulfilling someone else's dreams" bit feels like it comes out of nowhere, though. Maybe I'm just losing details, but I don't remember any time Wesley hinted at that while he was on the ship or his Academy appearances.
The kid tried to cover up a death to protect his career, then two seasons later it's "I never actually wanted to join Starfleet."
It's entirely feasible the grind of the academy combined with the fallout from the flight team death could make someone question what they're doing over a 2 year period. Plenty of people hit that point in college when they're grinding through all the difficult core classes for their major. There's also probably the aspect that Wesley's been literally saving the flagship before ever even showing up to the academy; it might of felt like it was beneath him at some point, and possibly even like having to start from the bottom again.
That episode always bothered me cause it felt like not only was Wesley pissed off, but the actor playing him was too. But then it was a pretty badly written episode in my opinion, that was anchored to the show's episode contained story format, which sort of forced it into this hyperbolic representation of Wesley's frustration, cause they only had so much time to develop it before moving on to the mystical garbage.
To add a little bit more, Wesley's entire thing up until that point was tying his own happiness to what he thought others wanted from him. To be a model student, and, later, officer. It's even at the core of his fuck up with Nova Squadron. He was so desperate for the approval of the rest of the squad that he was going to compromise his stated ideals (remember "Starfleet doesn't lie?") in order to get/maintain it. It's only because he valued Picard's (someone who was more a father to him than his biological father) approval more than Locarno's at the end that he had a change of heart.
So, yeah, I can see Wesley grappling with the hollowness of ultimately doing things just because of external expectations. Living only for others isn't really healthy, especially when you measure your own happiness by how happy you've made someone else. It's something that cannot be maintained indefinitely due to it's inherent fleeting nature. You keep getting good scores at the Academy, so the scale slides and that's the new norm. What's next? You joined Nova Squadron? Congratulations, we're all proud of you... What's next?
Just saw the Cardassian orphan episode and thought it was really good. That was one of those moral dilemmas where I really had a difficult time determining what should be done. At the end of the day I’m sad with the option Sisko went with but given the situation I can’t say it was the wrong option.
There’s also a sense in which a Carsassian who is the son of a political leader, and was educated by Bajorans about what the Cardassians did and then sent back to Cardassia, is a potentially a good motivator for social change.
I take the opposite approach. I find it difficult to believe that what Sisko did was in the child's best interests, and that should have been his number one priority. (Though I would point out that the kid really needed some distinction between Cardassians as a species, and the Cardassian government in his education.) I had a post earlier in this thread comparing it to the TNG episode with a similar premise, that was one stabbing away from taking a kid away from his adoptive parents and "returning" him to his biological parents.
In conclusion, Cardassian kid should have stabbed somebody.
In a lot of ways, you sort of realize the kid never even had a chance. Basically robbed of his young adult years and the usual rebellion that comes with them, still not having really dealt with the death of his father, or how he blamed Picard for it, and going to academy as an overachieving golden child who everyone is going to find excuses to hate on. Like you say, it wasn't a matter of if, it was when is this dude going to melt down?
The whole "tired of fulfilling someone else's dreams" bit feels like it comes out of nowhere, though. Maybe I'm just losing details, but I don't remember any time Wesley hinted at that while he was on the ship or his Academy appearances.
The kid tried to cover up a death to protect his career, then two seasons later it's "I never actually wanted to join Starfleet."
It's entirely feasible the grind of the academy combined with the fallout from the flight team death could make someone question what they're doing over a 2 year period. Plenty of people hit that point in college when they're grinding through all the difficult core classes for their major. There's also probably the aspect that Wesley's been literally saving the flagship before ever even showing up to the academy; it might of felt like it was beneath him at some point, and possibly even like having to start from the bottom again.
That episode always bothered me cause it felt like not only was Wesley pissed off, but the actor playing him was too. But then it was a pretty badly written episode in my opinion, that was anchored to the show's episode contained story format, which sort of forced it into this hyperbolic representation of Wesley's frustration, cause they only had so much time to develop it before moving on to the mystical garbage.
To add a little bit more, Wesley's entire thing up until that point was tying his own happiness to what he thought others wanted from him. To be a model student, and, later, officer. It's even at the core of his fuck up with Nova Squadron. He was so desperate for the approval of the rest of the squad that he was going to compromise his stated ideals (remember "Starfleet doesn't lie?") in order to get/maintain it. It's only because he valued Picard's (someone who was more a father to him than his biological father) approval more than Locarno's at the end that he had a change of heart.
So, yeah, I can see Wesley grappling with the hollowness of ultimately doing things just because of external expectations. Living only for others isn't really healthy, especially when you measure your own happiness by how happy you've made someone else. It's something that cannot be maintained indefinitely due to it's inherent fleeting nature. You keep getting good scores at the Academy, so the scale slides and that's the new norm. What's next? You joined Nova Squadron? Congratulations, we're all proud of you... What's next?
I think burnout was inevitable with him.
The character arc in the episode makes sense, it just suffers from Wesley now being a guest star on one episode so the whole thing has to be introduced and resolved within 42 minutes and so it ends up feeling a bit jarring.
In a lot of ways, you sort of realize the kid never even had a chance. Basically robbed of his young adult years and the usual rebellion that comes with them, still not having really dealt with the death of his father, or how he blamed Picard for it, and going to academy as an overachieving golden child who everyone is going to find excuses to hate on. Like you say, it wasn't a matter of if, it was when is this dude going to melt down?
He needed to get stabbed by a Nausicaan that'd set the little pisher straight.
I don't really want to see Spock dishing out zingers, I think. He should surely be above it all, and his humour comes from that, and not resentment or petty grudges.
I feel like this one is two lines away from going durr to someone who isn't following what he's saying precisely. I dunno, it's only been one episode, maybe he'll get better.
Something else I don't understand yet: why does anyone other than Spock give a toss about these Red Angel signals? I assume Section 31 has nefarious reasons, so fair enough, but Starfleet went instantly tonto for them and tasked Pike to find out what they were as though they hold the key to something worth breaking the prime directive and endangering the crew for. They led to some interesting places, fair enough, but before that Starfleet was instantly OH GOD SOLVE THIS NOW and there's no reason I can see that would have made them think that.
Sure, but I was able to connect Zachary Quinto's Spock to Nimoy's instantly when I saw him. Not just the look and mannerisms but the feel of him as well. This guy seems, so far, like a completely different person.
Pike also feels different (and much more interesting than Jeffrey Hunter's portrayal), but Pike isn't so familiar to everyone in the world as Spock so we're more likely to run with Mount's performance.
And for some reason Wesley shows up in a Lieutenant’s dress uniform at the wedding in Nemesis. That movie was so so very bad.
Eh, Q shows up in a captain's uniform most of the time, and is decidedly not in Starfleet. I can forgive it.
But that doesn’t explain the cut scene dialogue where he talks about being an engineer on the Titan (Riker’s new ship)...
I mean it's hard to hold cutting-room footage against the film
Uh, someone wrote shit that clearly showed they hadn’t paid attention to the show, which seems entirely relevant to discussions about the quality of the film. Especially given the wider context of a director who was openly disdainful of Star Trek.
I occasionally edit novels freelance. If we held everything that ended up cut against creators everything would be considered garbage. It's why there are multiple checks throughout the process.
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MsAnthropyThe Lady of Pain Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the RhythmThe City of FlowersRegistered Userregular
And for some reason Wesley shows up in a Lieutenant’s dress uniform at the wedding in Nemesis. That movie was so so very bad.
Eh, Q shows up in a captain's uniform most of the time, and is decidedly not in Starfleet. I can forgive it.
But that doesn’t explain the cut scene dialogue where he talks about being an engineer on the Titan (Riker’s new ship)...
I mean it's hard to hold cutting-room footage against the film
Uh, someone wrote shit that clearly showed they hadn’t paid attention to the show, which seems entirely relevant to discussions about the quality of the film. Especially given the wider context of a director who was openly disdainful of Star Trek.
I occasionally edit novels freelance. If we held everything that ended up cut against creators everything would be considered garbage. It's why there are multiple checks throughout the process.
Yeah I mean when talking about how the people making a movie didn’t care about the property it is totally unfair to jokiningly point to something they thought was worth writing and filming (even if they edited it out as part of the directive to make the movie as short as possible so it could be shown a maximum number of times per day) as one additional small data point joining all the ones that showed up in the final product. I am incredibly happy to have someone here pointing me to the errors of my way so that I can be a more appropriate person commenting on a random fan forum, and I am duly chastised.
:eyeroll:
Edit: If I *were* doing serious criticism or analysis in this or any other thread, acting as though discussion of extra-textual portions of the creative process (or the creator’s lives) were off-limits’ or ‘unfair’ to bolster points made about things seen in the text itself would be patently ridiculous. If it were true, I should’ve gotten an F for those papers I wrote about The Awakening back when I took my feminist lit classes, since I considered the wider context surrounding the book itself.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
I didn't mind Wesley being at the wedding in Nemesis; I'm honestly perfectly happy to pretend the Indian episode never happened and any Star Trek creator who wants to do the same has my 100% sympathy, just like I'm glad TNG didn't feel the need to chain itself to that awful thing from TOS about women not being able to be starship captains.
(of course, my lax attitude toward canon applies double to Nemesis, which might be one of the very few Trek things I actually find straight-up loathsome instead of just simply lol, boring, or sad)
+8
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MsAnthropyThe Lady of Pain Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the Rhythm, Breaks the RhythmThe City of FlowersRegistered Userregular
I didn't mind Wesley being at the wedding in Nemesis; I'm honestly perfectly happy to pretend the Indian episode never happened and any Star Trek creator who wants to do the same has my 100% sympathy, just like I'm glad TNG didn't feel the need to chain itself to that awful thing from TOS about women not being able to be starship captains.
(of course, my lax attitude toward canon applies double to Nemesis, which might be one of the very few Trek things I actually find straight-up loathsome instead of just simply lol, boring, or sad)
Yeah, I don’t actually care much about stuff like that either if it’s in service of telling a good story or improves the setting. I personally just find it a funny sign about Nemesis, given how disdainful the writer and director were about the show in general.
I have no problem with Wesley going back to Starfleet. People change their minds, and "Don't follow my path" is vague enough to mean something other than literally "Don't join Starfleet."
Really, it'd be interesting to know how/why he changed his mind. How he came to Starfleet on his own terms. And whether or not his course credits still counted :P
I'd like to see the Enterprise shrug off a stellaser
That is an entire star powering the beam.
a- depends on how big the sun is. If not too big then just turn on the Metaphasic shield and you can just sit back and get a tan.
b- it's got nothing on the awesome might of the stellar converter https://youtu.be/pr5Au0_NN04
I'd like to see the Enterprise shrug off a stellaser
That is an entire star powering the beam.
Star Trek has FTL sensors. There might be a range where a laser powered by a star would be dangerous, but it takes three minutes for light to travel from the sun to Mercury, so you have to get pretty close before "move out of the way when convenient" stops being the recommended course of action. A spaceship can try to maintain an optimal distance from an opponent, so lasers can make more sense there, but a star can't move.
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knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
I love how rarely TNG brings up Data’s superhuman strength and when it does get referenced it’s usually in a funny way. e.g. Riker struggling to get the controls working on a broken blast door, Data just grabs both sides and pulls it shut with the same effort one would fold a newspaper.
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Posts
Uh, someone wrote shit that clearly showed they hadn’t paid attention to the show, which seems entirely relevant to discussions about the quality of the film. Especially given the wider context of a director who was openly disdainful of Star Trek.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
I have seen the same explanation. I think I remember it bring Will Wheaton's own personal explanation for why he was wearing the uniform. I think I heard it at a Q&A he did at the PAX 2007.
Either that or it's a Red Letter Media thing and I'm just getting myself confused.
There’s also a sense in which a Carsassian who is the son of a political leader, and was educated by Bajorans about what the Cardassians did and then sent back to Cardassia, is a potentially a good motivator for social change.
To add a little bit more, Wesley's entire thing up until that point was tying his own happiness to what he thought others wanted from him. To be a model student, and, later, officer. It's even at the core of his fuck up with Nova Squadron. He was so desperate for the approval of the rest of the squad that he was going to compromise his stated ideals (remember "Starfleet doesn't lie?") in order to get/maintain it. It's only because he valued Picard's (someone who was more a father to him than his biological father) approval more than Locarno's at the end that he had a change of heart.
So, yeah, I can see Wesley grappling with the hollowness of ultimately doing things just because of external expectations. Living only for others isn't really healthy, especially when you measure your own happiness by how happy you've made someone else. It's something that cannot be maintained indefinitely due to it's inherent fleeting nature. You keep getting good scores at the Academy, so the scale slides and that's the new norm. What's next? You joined Nova Squadron? Congratulations, we're all proud of you... What's next?
I think burnout was inevitable with him.
I take the opposite approach. I find it difficult to believe that what Sisko did was in the child's best interests, and that should have been his number one priority. (Though I would point out that the kid really needed some distinction between Cardassians as a species, and the Cardassian government in his education.) I had a post earlier in this thread comparing it to the TNG episode with a similar premise, that was one stabbing away from taking a kid away from his adoptive parents and "returning" him to his biological parents.
In conclusion, Cardassian kid should have stabbed somebody.
In a lot of ways, you sort of realize the kid never even had a chance. Basically robbed of his young adult years and the usual rebellion that comes with them, still not having really dealt with the death of his father, or how he blamed Picard for it, and going to academy as an overachieving golden child who everyone is going to find excuses to hate on. Like you say, it wasn't a matter of if, it was when is this dude going to melt down?
The character arc in the episode makes sense, it just suffers from Wesley now being a guest star on one episode so the whole thing has to be introduced and resolved within 42 minutes and so it ends up feeling a bit jarring.
He needed to get stabbed by a Nausicaan that'd set the little pisher straight.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
I feel like this one is two lines away from going durr to someone who isn't following what he's saying precisely. I dunno, it's only been one episode, maybe he'll get better.
Something else I don't understand yet: why does anyone other than Spock give a toss about these Red Angel signals? I assume Section 31 has nefarious reasons, so fair enough, but Starfleet went instantly tonto for them and tasked Pike to find out what they were as though they hold the key to something worth breaking the prime directive and endangering the crew for. They led to some interesting places, fair enough, but before that Starfleet was instantly OH GOD SOLVE THIS NOW and there's no reason I can see that would have made them think that.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
Pike also feels different (and much more interesting than Jeffrey Hunter's portrayal), but Pike isn't so familiar to everyone in the world as Spock so we're more likely to run with Mount's performance.
Choose Your Own Chat 1 Choose Your Own Chat 2 Choose Your Own Chat 3
I occasionally edit novels freelance. If we held everything that ended up cut against creators everything would be considered garbage. It's why there are multiple checks throughout the process.
Yeah I mean when talking about how the people making a movie didn’t care about the property it is totally unfair to jokiningly point to something they thought was worth writing and filming (even if they edited it out as part of the directive to make the movie as short as possible so it could be shown a maximum number of times per day) as one additional small data point joining all the ones that showed up in the final product. I am incredibly happy to have someone here pointing me to the errors of my way so that I can be a more appropriate person commenting on a random fan forum, and I am duly chastised.
:eyeroll:
Edit: If I *were* doing serious criticism or analysis in this or any other thread, acting as though discussion of extra-textual portions of the creative process (or the creator’s lives) were off-limits’ or ‘unfair’ to bolster points made about things seen in the text itself would be patently ridiculous. If it were true, I should’ve gotten an F for those papers I wrote about The Awakening back when I took my feminist lit classes, since I considered the wider context surrounding the book itself.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
(of course, my lax attitude toward canon applies double to Nemesis, which might be one of the very few Trek things I actually find straight-up loathsome instead of just simply lol, boring, or sad)
Yeah, I don’t actually care much about stuff like that either if it’s in service of telling a good story or improves the setting. I personally just find it a funny sign about Nemesis, given how disdainful the writer and director were about the show in general.
"The only real politics I knew was that if a guy liked Hitler, I’d beat the stuffing out of him and that would be it." -- Jack Kirby
Really, it'd be interesting to know how/why he changed his mind. How he came to Starfleet on his own terms. And whether or not his course credits still counted :P
And what are these phaser things. It was clearly established in The Cage that they used lasers.
UESPA SI!
It's the first episode that plays when you watch TOS on Netflix.
I'd like to see the Enterprise shrug off a stellaser
a- depends on how big the sun is. If not too big then just turn on the Metaphasic shield and you can just sit back and get a tan.
b- it's got nothing on the awesome might of the stellar converter
(Don't open if you value your sanity, your dignity, or your human decency)
Does it use the modern effects?
That depends, are we in a Star Wars movie or a Star Trek movie?
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
Stargate
It would be capable, but the Death Star gets blown up due to SG1 sabotage.
It’s not a very important country most of the time
http://steamcommunity.com/id/mortious
"You know, you blow up one sun and suddenly everyone expects you to walk on water."
Star Trek has FTL sensors. There might be a range where a laser powered by a star would be dangerous, but it takes three minutes for light to travel from the sun to Mercury, so you have to get pretty close before "move out of the way when convenient" stops being the recommended course of action. A spaceship can try to maintain an optimal distance from an opponent, so lasers can make more sense there, but a star can't move.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades