The USA skews considerably more conservative, both economically and socially, than most of the world.
Most of the world population lives under authoritarian regimes, so no.
Is this type of comment helpful at all on defining the Left in the USA?
Which countries are you considering authoritarian?
Your premise is false and flows from a false perception of the world..
China is a repressive authoritarian country.
India is democratic but much more socially traditionalist than the US. Pakistan is an officially Islamist Republic with major social conservatism enforced and less than 10 years since the last period of martial law. Bangladesh has had a single conservative party seize control and abolish neutrality in elections in 2011. Russia is a right wing kleptocracy. Brazil and the Phillipines have elected leaders even to the right of Trump.
The entire premise of the thread is based on a false vision of global politics. Even in Europe, which implicitly was "the rest of the world" in your premise you ignore the US had same sex marriage before most of the European Union which still doesn't have it on several countries, the US actually has much more reproductive right freedoms than most of Europe which typically puts more restrictions after the first trimester, is undergoing a massive anti immigrant, xenophobic, racist and reactionary wave of politics. Merkel is arguably the most liberal/left major European leader right now and she is head of a center right Christian party which opposes same sex marriage and abortion.
I just think it's wild willful ignorance or something that some of y'all are seeing the imperialist capitalist literally founded on genocide hellscape flirting with theofascism as a bastion of freedom
If my entire perspective is flawed, name an actual leftist who has ran for office and been part of the national political conversation. Debs and Stein?
Stein was famously photographed with Putin. Does that disqualify them?
Any others?
Is a center right war hawk racist like Biden part of "the left" because he's moderately more liberal than the sitting president who's openly calling for a race war?
I just think it's wild willful ignorance or something that some of y'all are seeing the imperialist capitalist literally founded on genocide hellscape flirting with theofascism as a bastion of freedom
I don't think anyone was stating that?
That statement of founded on a genocidal hellscape flirting with theofascism applies to probably every western nation at some point in their history.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I just think it's wild willful ignorance or something that some of y'all are seeing the imperialist capitalist literally founded on genocide hellscape flirting with theofascism as a bastion of freedom
Okay, so where is the bastion of freedom then? Which nation would fit the criteria?
Like, yeah America has problems we need to solve but I never really bought into this terrible view lots of people have of it. Lots of people point to Europe as the real exemplary of democracy but Europe has lots of issues itself.
Is a center right war hawk racist like Biden part of "the left" because he's moderately more liberal than the sitting president who's openly calling for a race war?
See, throwing stuff out like this shows, to me, part of the problem with defining anything in politics. It's all going to be personal. Some will label Biden as a crazy take your guns and healthcare choices leftist, to others he's a centrist, and yet to others he is part of the reactionary wave prevent the rise of true Marxism. Who is right, and why?
I guess I'm of the opinion that multiple things can be bad. Two countries can be cruel and bigoted at the same time.
I am trying to find out if anyone thinks there is a meaningful impactful left wing in USA.
Instead, everyone is saying well actually, Europe is not nearly as great as you're suggesting.
Okay, I apologize for my ignorance. I'm sorry for the Euro centric OP. That was ignorant.
Have leftists, that is actual workers own the means of production socialists, not well maybe we should break up standard oil centrists, or something comparable, ever had any impact on the national discourse in the USA?
How would we measure leftism in the USA?
Do any of the anti Vietnam war activists of the 60s and 70s count?
Bernie is a reform capitalist. Does that make him a leftist?
I guess I'm of the opinion that multiple things can be bad. Two countries can be cruel and bigoted at the same time.
I am trying to find out if anyone thinks there is a meaningful impactful left wing in USA.
Instead, everyone is saying well actually, Europe is not nearly as great as you're suggesting.
Okay, I apologize for my ignorance. I'm sorry for the Euro centric OP. That was ignorant.
Have leftists, that is actual workers own the means of production socialists, not well maybe we should break up standard oil centrists, or something comparable, ever had any impact on the national discourse in the USA?
How would we measure leftism in the USA?
Do any of the anti Vietnam war activists of the 60s and 70s count?
Bernie is a reform capitalist. Does that make him a leftist?
The main difference I see between my European and American friends is that the Europeans have more freedom to explore careers that pay less (especially in the arts), and they don't feel the constant fear of dying in poverty because they lost a job, got sick, or got old. And while there is undoubtedly racism and regressive politics, minorities generally can go about their business without the constant fear of being gunned down by government employees working in law enforcement agencies.
I guess I'm of the opinion that multiple things can be bad. Two countries can be cruel and bigoted at the same time.
I am trying to find out if anyone thinks there is a meaningful impactful left wing in USA.
Instead, everyone is saying well actually, Europe is not nearly as great as you're suggesting.
Okay, I apologize for my ignorance. I'm sorry for the Euro centric OP. That was ignorant.
Have leftists, that is actual workers own the means of production socialists, not well maybe we should break up standard oil centrists, or something comparable, ever had any impact on the national discourse in the USA?
My state has health insurance for the poor and enfeeble, for all children, and for those who don't qualify through work. Essentially socialized health insurance at the end of the day. It also has social safety nets like unemployment and food stamps/ebt and help with rent and utilities. There's also disability which isn't great but it isn't horrible either. You won't be homeless in my state if something's wrong with you. We have lots of disability work programs, but we still suffer from the "lose all your benefits" problem (outside of the health insurance) that it's still hard. We have a lot of room for improvement. Some parts of my state are shitty and feel like you're in the deep south, sure.
The United States has such a plethora of social and political viewpoints that it varies wildly from state to state, even states that are neighbors.
Assuming we don't get gerrymandered and our votes fucked with to the point that the US turns into a fascist regime, national discourse has pushed for gay rights like marriage and all that in a relatively short time (compare this to jim crow and racism to see just how quick it happened). We are on the verge of medicare for all right now too. Trans rights and acceptance has seen even quicker social appeal than even gay rights.
Shit just isn't going to happen overnight. And it probably looks pretty bleak, like I said, in those red or purple states, especially if you live in a rural area and hear nothing but bible thumping evangelicals all day.
California, Washington, Massachusetts, and New York (there are some others) are the places you likely want to be to experience what the left accomplishes. Anywhere else it's probably hit or miss even in the large cities.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
I guess I'm of the opinion that multiple things can be bad. Two countries can be cruel and bigoted at the same time.
I am trying to find out if anyone thinks there is a meaningful impactful left wing in USA.
Instead, everyone is saying well actually, Europe is not nearly as great as you're suggesting.
Okay, I apologize for my ignorance. I'm sorry for the Euro centric OP. That was ignorant.
Have leftists, that is actual workers own the means of production socialists, not well maybe we should break up standard oil centrists, or something comparable, ever had any impact on the national discourse in the USA?
How would we measure leftism in the USA?
Do any of the anti Vietnam war activists of the 60s and 70s count?
Bernie is a reform capitalist. Does that make him a leftist?
We've had some who've attempted it, but it's not gone well. The government's murdered or disappearing people championing it (think "getting rid of Commies/Bolsheviks" type stuff), or it's killed itself off in cases where (and I'm fairly sure there have been cases of this) leftist economic rhetoric was successful but the proponents of said rhetoric were specifically excluding minorities.
So it feels like it depends on things like "does only the embracing of a part of leftist ideals make one a leftist?" If you believe workers should own the means of production, but also think "fuck those black folk", are you considered leftist? I'd say "no, because racial equality is part of the idea of leftism", but then we're playing some variety of No True Scotsman, I think, and I dunno how one escapes that. As an aside, I feel that this is a bit that the left-left struggles with. Race is sometimes ignored or removed or just not focused on quite enough, and all problems will be solved via working on the American class system. That's never worked out that way though. America's race issues are the main driver of a frightening amount of our issues, not class. Class issues sure cause problems, but you can't really "solve" those until you "solve" the race issue, and hooooooooooooo boy, we've got a ways to go there.
We can see the same thing with some of your examples. For instance, I would bet that most of the anti-war activists during the Vietnam era also happen to be capitalists. I am sure there is a not-insignificant chunk that has issues with capitalism, but if you asked if those folks were largely capitalists, socialists, or communists, I bet they'd choose the first (though have no numbers to back that).
I guess I'm of the opinion that multiple things can be bad. Two countries can be cruel and bigoted at the same time.
I am trying to find out if anyone thinks there is a meaningful impactful left wing in USA.
Instead, everyone is saying well actually, Europe is not nearly as great as you're suggesting.
Okay, I apologize for my ignorance. I'm sorry for the Euro centric OP. That was ignorant.
Have leftists, that is actual workers own the means of production socialists, not well maybe we should break up standard oil centrists, or something comparable, ever had any impact on the national discourse in the USA?
How would we measure leftism in the USA?
Do any of the anti Vietnam war activists of the 60s and 70s count?
Bernie is a reform capitalist. Does that make him a leftist?
The United States went through a massive era of reform in the early 20th century, spurred largely by the influence of European immigrants who were disgusted by the working conditions they faced and influenced by socialist leaders like Eugene Debs and Emma Goldman. "Freedom loving" Americans responded by murdering, imprisoning, and deporting socialist activists.
Freedom finally won with the Immigration Act of 1924, which targeted nations that had socialist sympathies. We tied off the bow on that one by a) not mentioning the entire era in history textbooks and b) refreshing the Red Scare every few generations to keep the freedom fresh.
racial equality is inextricable from workers owning the means of production because workers are many races
you could hold a more specific positon of "white workers should own the means of production", I guess, but you just end up with a racially encoded underclass of workers and upperclass of owners so you didn't really solve the class problem at all
racial equality is inextricable from workers owning the means of production because workers are many races
you could hold a more specific positon of "white workers should own the means of production", I guess, but you just end up with a racially encoded underclass of workers and upperclass of owners so you didn't really solve the class problem at all
That's literally what National Socialism means - the state has obligations to the people but the people are only those whose ethnicity is recognized by the state.
Didn't work out that way in practice, of course. One of the first things the Nazis did when they took power was to purge their socialist wing, outlaw unions, and create a "national union" that was just a mouthpiece for industrialists.
racial equality is inextricable from workers owning the means of production because workers are many races
you could hold a more specific positon of "white workers should own the means of production", I guess, but you just end up with a racially encoded underclass of workers and upperclass of owners so you didn't really solve the class problem at all
There's a long, ignoble history of the term "working class" having an implicit "white" proceeding it.
I'm some flavor of "capitalism is bad, actually it's literally killing the planet, wars and genocide have often been justified by capitalism" anti capitalist
But I haven't read enough to figure out where I fit
It is funny how all of the media in the U.S. is very left when the country is more on the right.
This is not even close to true.
The entertainment industry is built on exploitation of women and minorities but self-congratulations about how progressive they are.
The news industry is right wing infotainment, almost exclusively.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Obvious example is that the single most powerful person in the movie industry for about 20 years was a serial sexual predator, who everyone knew was a serial sexual predator, and nothing was done.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Obvious example is that the single most powerful person in the movie industry for about 20 years was a serial sexual predator, who everyone knew was a serial sexual predator, and nothing was done.
Second obvious example is that Trump's entire persona and fame are the creation of the entertainment industry.
Pure unregulated capitalism? Bad, kills the environment, kills people.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation.
Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Obvious example is that the single most powerful person in the movie industry for about 20 years was a serial sexual predator, who everyone knew was a serial sexual predator, and nothing was done.
I see. The progressiveness really isn't quite there when you go behind the scenes.
Pure unregulated capitalism? Bad, kills the environment, kills people.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation. Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
it might work if countries with a interest in capitalism dont sabotage the hell out of them. Wich I think is the biggest reason why socialism has very few odds of surviving in our current global climate.
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
Obvious example is that the single most powerful person in the movie industry for about 20 years was a serial sexual predator, who everyone knew was a serial sexual predator, and nothing was done.
I see. The progressiveness really isn't quite there when you go behind the scenes.
There's a reason that "limousine liberal" is a term. Show business is very progressive in some ways - and deeply regressive in others.
I would not be shocked to see an end to modern capitalism in my lifetime. That doesn't mean I expect a utopian outbreak of Glorious Communism, but that our capitalist, libertarian, and conservative neighbors all vastly underestimate the importance of the modern Western nation state and international agreements to the existence and perpetuation of capitalism.
Capitalism is, at the loosest definition, only 500 to 600 years old. It's foundation and spread are closely linked to European colonialism. As the climate crisis kicks in and nations begin to compete for the basic necessities of life, the legal agreements that underpin capitalism will erode. States will become more comfortable seizing industries or taking a direct hand in determining who runs those industries for the same reason that pure capitalism got set aside during WWII - survival is too important to be left to the free market.
Pure unregulated capitalism? Bad, kills the environment, kills people.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation. Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
it might work if countries with a interest in capitalism dont sabotage the hell out of them. Wich I think is the biggest reason why socialism has very few odds of surviving in our current global climate.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
humans are trash and seek power over others, even the tiniest bit will cause someone to become authoritarian over others. Just look at HoAs or other collective type communities. It can work, until it doesn't.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Pure unregulated capitalism? Bad, kills the environment, kills people.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation. Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
it might work if countries with a interest in capitalism dont sabotage the hell out of them. Wich I think is the biggest reason why socialism has very few odds of surviving in our current global climate.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
humans are trash and seek power over others, even the tiniest bit will cause someone to become authoritarian over others. Just look at HoAs or other collective type communities. It can work, until it doesn't.
I feel like socialism/communism is held to a standard of necessary success that we dont hold capitalism to.
Pure unregulated capitalism? Bad, kills the environment, kills people.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation. Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
it might work if countries with a interest in capitalism dont sabotage the hell out of them. Wich I think is the biggest reason why socialism has very few odds of surviving in our current global climate.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
humans are trash and seek power over others, even the tiniest bit will cause someone to become authoritarian over others. Just look at HoAs or other collective type communities. It can work, until it doesn't.
I feel like socialism/communism is held to a standard of necessary success that we dont hold capitalism to.
I'm not holding socialism to any standard, just communism.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Pure unregulated capitalism? Bad, kills the environment, kills people.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation. Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
it might work if countries with a interest in capitalism dont sabotage the hell out of them. Wich I think is the biggest reason why socialism has very few odds of surviving in our current global climate.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
humans are trash and seek power over others, even the tiniest bit will cause someone to become authoritarian over others. Just look at HoAs or other collective type communities. It can work, until it doesn't.
If you want the tiniest microcosm of this look at tribal governments that are not in cities. Like you get your tribes that were lucky enough to own land long enough in cities to put up casinos but they are the 1% outside of that you have the same disfunction as any world government.
Except here we rely more on nepotism and good old feudal type family succession for government seats. Well not literally its just the larger families will get more pull because people will vote more along those lines than fitness or the like.
Obvious example is that the single most powerful person in the movie industry for about 20 years was a serial sexual predator, who everyone knew was a serial sexual predator, and nothing was done.
I see. The progressiveness really isn't quite there when you go behind the scenes.
There's a reason that "limousine liberal" is a term. Show business is very progressive in some ways - and deeply regressive in others.
Even conservative nations tend to have "liberal" entertainment industries. That was even true for the Nazi-era Germans, who avoided the small handful of racist propaganda films in favor of melodrama and schmaltz with plots and themes that would fit seamlessly alongside any film put out by 40s/50s-era Disney.
There's a reason the saying "Fascism is kitsch" exists. The worse a society gets, the more appeal there is for stories that tell the audience "Everything is fine. You are a good person."
Pure unregulated capitalism? Bad, kills the environment, kills people.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation. Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
it might work if countries with a interest in capitalism dont sabotage the hell out of them. Wich I think is the biggest reason why socialism has very few odds of surviving in our current global climate.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
humans are trash and seek power over others, even the tiniest bit will cause someone to become authoritarian over others. Just look at HoAs or other collective type communities. It can work, until it doesn't.
Sorry, I have no idea what HoAs are. Could you write the full words so I can google it ?
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
Pure unregulated capitalism? Bad, kills the environment, kills people.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation. Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
it might work if countries with a interest in capitalism dont sabotage the hell out of them. Wich I think is the biggest reason why socialism has very few odds of surviving in our current global climate.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
humans are trash and seek power over others, even the tiniest bit will cause someone to become authoritarian over others. Just look at HoAs or other collective type communities. It can work, until it doesn't.
If you want the tiniest microcosm of this look at tribal governments that are not in cities. Like you get your tribes that were lucky enough to own land long enough in cities to put up casinos but they are the 1% outside of that you have the same disfunction as any world government.
Except here we rely more on nepotism and good old feudal type family succession for government seats. Well not literally its just the larger families will get more pull because people will vote more along those lines than fitness or the like.
And with certain tribes who do get to put up casinos, there is an immediate political push to start restricting tribal roles and removing people from the tribe for a variety of reasons. Blood quantum starts to get really important.
Pure unregulated capitalism? Bad, kills the environment, kills people.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation. Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
it might work if countries with a interest in capitalism dont sabotage the hell out of them. Wich I think is the biggest reason why socialism has very few odds of surviving in our current global climate.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
humans are trash and seek power over others, even the tiniest bit will cause someone to become authoritarian over others. Just look at HoAs or other collective type communities. It can work, until it doesn't.
Sorry, I have no idea what HoAs are. Could you write the full words so I can google it ?
Pure unregulated capitalism? Bad, kills the environment, kills people.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation. Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
it might work if countries with a interest in capitalism dont sabotage the hell out of them. Wich I think is the biggest reason why socialism has very few odds of surviving in our current global climate.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
humans are trash and seek power over others, even the tiniest bit will cause someone to become authoritarian over others. Just look at HoAs or other collective type communities. It can work, until it doesn't.
Sorry, I have no idea what HoAs are. Could you write the full words so I can google it ?
Home owners association. I dont think the application of it here makes too much sense.
Pure unregulated capitalism? Bad, kills the environment, kills people.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation. Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
it might work if countries with a interest in capitalism dont sabotage the hell out of them. Wich I think is the biggest reason why socialism has very few odds of surviving in our current global climate.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
humans are trash and seek power over others, even the tiniest bit will cause someone to become authoritarian over others. Just look at HoAs or other collective type communities. It can work, until it doesn't.
Sorry, I have no idea what HoAs are. Could you write the full words so I can google it ?
Posts
Your premise is false and flows from a false perception of the world..
China is a repressive authoritarian country.
India is democratic but much more socially traditionalist than the US. Pakistan is an officially Islamist Republic with major social conservatism enforced and less than 10 years since the last period of martial law. Bangladesh has had a single conservative party seize control and abolish neutrality in elections in 2011. Russia is a right wing kleptocracy. Brazil and the Phillipines have elected leaders even to the right of Trump.
The entire premise of the thread is based on a false vision of global politics. Even in Europe, which implicitly was "the rest of the world" in your premise you ignore the US had same sex marriage before most of the European Union which still doesn't have it on several countries, the US actually has much more reproductive right freedoms than most of Europe which typically puts more restrictions after the first trimester, is undergoing a massive anti immigrant, xenophobic, racist and reactionary wave of politics. Merkel is arguably the most liberal/left major European leader right now and she is head of a center right Christian party which opposes same sex marriage and abortion.
QEDMF xbl: PantsB G+
I just think it's wild willful ignorance or something that some of y'all are seeing the imperialist capitalist literally founded on genocide hellscape flirting with theofascism as a bastion of freedom
If my entire perspective is flawed, name an actual leftist who has ran for office and been part of the national political conversation. Debs and Stein?
Stein was famously photographed with Putin. Does that disqualify them?
Any others?
Is a center right war hawk racist like Biden part of "the left" because he's moderately more liberal than the sitting president who's openly calling for a race war?
I don't think anyone was stating that?
That statement of founded on a genocidal hellscape flirting with theofascism applies to probably every western nation at some point in their history.
Okay, so where is the bastion of freedom then? Which nation would fit the criteria?
Like, yeah America has problems we need to solve but I never really bought into this terrible view lots of people have of it. Lots of people point to Europe as the real exemplary of democracy but Europe has lots of issues itself.
See, throwing stuff out like this shows, to me, part of the problem with defining anything in politics. It's all going to be personal. Some will label Biden as a crazy take your guns and healthcare choices leftist, to others he's a centrist, and yet to others he is part of the reactionary wave prevent the rise of true Marxism. Who is right, and why?
I am trying to find out if anyone thinks there is a meaningful impactful left wing in USA.
Instead, everyone is saying well actually, Europe is not nearly as great as you're suggesting.
Okay, I apologize for my ignorance. I'm sorry for the Euro centric OP. That was ignorant.
Have leftists, that is actual workers own the means of production socialists, not well maybe we should break up standard oil centrists, or something comparable, ever had any impact on the national discourse in the USA?
How would we measure leftism in the USA?
Do any of the anti Vietnam war activists of the 60s and 70s count?
Bernie is a reform capitalist. Does that make him a leftist?
The main difference I see between my European and American friends is that the Europeans have more freedom to explore careers that pay less (especially in the arts), and they don't feel the constant fear of dying in poverty because they lost a job, got sick, or got old. And while there is undoubtedly racism and regressive politics, minorities generally can go about their business without the constant fear of being gunned down by government employees working in law enforcement agencies.
But I can by a gun, so I'm more free.
My state has health insurance for the poor and enfeeble, for all children, and for those who don't qualify through work. Essentially socialized health insurance at the end of the day. It also has social safety nets like unemployment and food stamps/ebt and help with rent and utilities. There's also disability which isn't great but it isn't horrible either. You won't be homeless in my state if something's wrong with you. We have lots of disability work programs, but we still suffer from the "lose all your benefits" problem (outside of the health insurance) that it's still hard. We have a lot of room for improvement. Some parts of my state are shitty and feel like you're in the deep south, sure.
The United States has such a plethora of social and political viewpoints that it varies wildly from state to state, even states that are neighbors.
Assuming we don't get gerrymandered and our votes fucked with to the point that the US turns into a fascist regime, national discourse has pushed for gay rights like marriage and all that in a relatively short time (compare this to jim crow and racism to see just how quick it happened). We are on the verge of medicare for all right now too. Trans rights and acceptance has seen even quicker social appeal than even gay rights.
Shit just isn't going to happen overnight. And it probably looks pretty bleak, like I said, in those red or purple states, especially if you live in a rural area and hear nothing but bible thumping evangelicals all day.
California, Washington, Massachusetts, and New York (there are some others) are the places you likely want to be to experience what the left accomplishes. Anywhere else it's probably hit or miss even in the large cities.
Left would be you can do what you want, and as long as it does not keep someone else from doing what they want, it's fine?
Right would be no, you cannot that, for x reason?
I'm sincerely trying to define this.
I'm sorry I'm frustrated with my own ignorance.
We've had some who've attempted it, but it's not gone well. The government's murdered or disappearing people championing it (think "getting rid of Commies/Bolsheviks" type stuff), or it's killed itself off in cases where (and I'm fairly sure there have been cases of this) leftist economic rhetoric was successful but the proponents of said rhetoric were specifically excluding minorities.
So it feels like it depends on things like "does only the embracing of a part of leftist ideals make one a leftist?" If you believe workers should own the means of production, but also think "fuck those black folk", are you considered leftist? I'd say "no, because racial equality is part of the idea of leftism", but then we're playing some variety of No True Scotsman, I think, and I dunno how one escapes that. As an aside, I feel that this is a bit that the left-left struggles with. Race is sometimes ignored or removed or just not focused on quite enough, and all problems will be solved via working on the American class system. That's never worked out that way though. America's race issues are the main driver of a frightening amount of our issues, not class. Class issues sure cause problems, but you can't really "solve" those until you "solve" the race issue, and hooooooooooooo boy, we've got a ways to go there.
We can see the same thing with some of your examples. For instance, I would bet that most of the anti-war activists during the Vietnam era also happen to be capitalists. I am sure there is a not-insignificant chunk that has issues with capitalism, but if you asked if those folks were largely capitalists, socialists, or communists, I bet they'd choose the first (though have no numbers to back that).
[ed] Accursed drafts!
The United States went through a massive era of reform in the early 20th century, spurred largely by the influence of European immigrants who were disgusted by the working conditions they faced and influenced by socialist leaders like Eugene Debs and Emma Goldman. "Freedom loving" Americans responded by murdering, imprisoning, and deporting socialist activists.
World War I was a boon to freedom, allowing real Americans to outlaw speech against the war and crack down hard on socialists. The federal government arrested and deported hundreds of socialists in the Palmer Raids. In New York, elected socialists were expelled from office for holding beliefs "inimical to the United States." Debs was sent to prison for speaking out against the war.
Freedom finally won with the Immigration Act of 1924, which targeted nations that had socialist sympathies. We tied off the bow on that one by a) not mentioning the entire era in history textbooks and b) refreshing the Red Scare every few generations to keep the freedom fresh.
you could hold a more specific positon of "white workers should own the means of production", I guess, but you just end up with a racially encoded underclass of workers and upperclass of owners so you didn't really solve the class problem at all
That's literally what National Socialism means - the state has obligations to the people but the people are only those whose ethnicity is recognized by the state.
Didn't work out that way in practice, of course. One of the first things the Nazis did when they took power was to purge their socialist wing, outlaw unions, and create a "national union" that was just a mouthpiece for industrialists.
There's a long, ignoble history of the term "working class" having an implicit "white" proceeding it.
But I haven't read enough to figure out where I fit
Is it though?
This isn't true, at all.
This is not even close to true.
The entertainment industry is built on exploitation of women and minorities but self-congratulations about how progressive they are.
The news industry is right wing infotainment, almost exclusively.
Obvious example is that the single most powerful person in the movie industry for about 20 years was a serial sexual predator, who everyone knew was a serial sexual predator, and nothing was done.
Second obvious example is that Trump's entire persona and fame are the creation of the entertainment industry.
Heavily regulated capitalism with socialist programs? Good, helps everyone, keeps innovation.
Pure, non-authoritarian communism? Will never work until we're borg.
I see. The progressiveness really isn't quite there when you go behind the scenes.
You can be but as a spectrum youre on the right of socialists.
it might work if countries with a interest in capitalism dont sabotage the hell out of them. Wich I think is the biggest reason why socialism has very few odds of surviving in our current global climate.
There's a reason that "limousine liberal" is a term. Show business is very progressive in some ways - and deeply regressive in others.
Capitalism is, at the loosest definition, only 500 to 600 years old. It's foundation and spread are closely linked to European colonialism. As the climate crisis kicks in and nations begin to compete for the basic necessities of life, the legal agreements that underpin capitalism will erode. States will become more comfortable seizing industries or taking a direct hand in determining who runs those industries for the same reason that pure capitalism got set aside during WWII - survival is too important to be left to the free market.
Ehhhhhhhhhh
humans are trash and seek power over others, even the tiniest bit will cause someone to become authoritarian over others. Just look at HoAs or other collective type communities. It can work, until it doesn't.
I feel like socialism/communism is held to a standard of necessary success that we dont hold capitalism to.
I'm not holding socialism to any standard, just communism.
If you want the tiniest microcosm of this look at tribal governments that are not in cities. Like you get your tribes that were lucky enough to own land long enough in cities to put up casinos but they are the 1% outside of that you have the same disfunction as any world government.
Except here we rely more on nepotism and good old feudal type family succession for government seats. Well not literally its just the larger families will get more pull because people will vote more along those lines than fitness or the like.
Even conservative nations tend to have "liberal" entertainment industries. That was even true for the Nazi-era Germans, who avoided the small handful of racist propaganda films in favor of melodrama and schmaltz with plots and themes that would fit seamlessly alongside any film put out by 40s/50s-era Disney.
There's a reason the saying "Fascism is kitsch" exists. The worse a society gets, the more appeal there is for stories that tell the audience "Everything is fine. You are a good person."
Sorry, I have no idea what HoAs are. Could you write the full words so I can google it ?
And with certain tribes who do get to put up casinos, there is an immediate political push to start restricting tribal roles and removing people from the tribe for a variety of reasons. Blood quantum starts to get really important.
Federally-recognized tribes also have a tendency to use their political power to keep other tribes from being recognized. This is especially aimed at tribes that intermarried heavily with African Americans.
https://lmgtfy.com/?q=HoAs
Home owners association. I dont think the application of it here makes too much sense.
Fantomas aint american so maybe it be best to do away with this sort of thing for an honest question?