I've been trying a project 60 run in retail to kill time until release.
Juxtaposed against my time on the test server, it's really driven home how incredibly toothless the leveling experience has become. Even without heirlooms I never run out of resources, everything dies in just a few hits, and I'm never in any real danger of dying.
The whole thing just feels very unrewarding and kinda pointless.
Well, and the core problem with this, as I've said in dozens of other threads dozens of other times, is that the retail WoW leveling experience doesn't prepare you at all for M+ and Heroic/Mythic raids. They're completely different games. There are 2-5 skills/spells in your repertoire that you'll never ever use until then, and it'll feel odd and uncomfortable and stressful because you've spent months leveling and not paying attention to that stuff.
Interrupts, for example, are largely ignored until you get into a m+ dungeon. The game should be teaching you more and more about how your class and character work as you play the game, but it just...doesn't.
Yeah fighting defias pillagers teaches you real quick you need to interrupt or stun things.
I can see why they did it. They wanted to make content more accessible to everyone but still provide a challenge to more hardcore players. They basically just ported the idea of rifts over from Diablo 3 (a game which I also was massively disappointed with).
But it just feels... I dunno, pointless. Normal is a joke, Heroic is easy. Mythic is "normal" and Mythic+ is just infinitely scaling Health/Damage and random modifiers.
Then you grind your Mythic 5 so you can get the gear to grind a Mythic 6 so you can grind a Mythic 7 so you can grind a Mythic 8 and so on and so on. The game has always been a treadmill but it never used to feel so much like a treadmill.
And the loot feels so bland. Like it's all just generic, formula-generated "this class needs STAMINA + PRIMARY STAT at DUNGEON LEVEL +%"
And the groups these days just seem so much more toxic. I really miss the days before your utility to the group was dismissed with a glace at your iLvl. When it was okay that my character did "enough" DPS instead of "THE MOST DPS". If I was already over-geared for this raid/dungeon, why the fuck would I be doing it?
unfortunately for people who don't like M+, I'm like 95% sure that they're extremely happy with how M+ has worked out as a form of repeatable content that keeps players engaged and subscribed week to week. Personally I like them just because it's nice to have a challenging version of dungeons that never becomes obsolete in rewards and trivially easy from gear power creep as an expansion goes on.
Yeah, that's why I can't really pug M+ spots, because you're very likely to get someone that really hasn't figured things out and doesn't understand why they're hitting the wall hard.
And trying to help them out is impossible, no one can take things constructively.
Ilvl is not what gets you into high m+ (though it is an indirect factor). What gets you into high m+ is high raid.io score. This is a third party website that measures (imperfectly because Blizzard only partially exposed the API) which dungeons you finished on what m+ key and how fast (beat the timer and if so by how much? Failed and if so by how much?) and assigned a number based on how well you did, and then shows the best number you gave for each dungeon (if you haven't done it at all on m+ it's counted as 0), and then a cumulative score.
The reason people use this tool is because a high ilvl means high potential dps, but we've all been in a group with someone who had ilvl but didn't know their rotation, didn't know what an interrupt is, and stands in every bad. Conversely, you can be lower ilvl and do the best theoretical dps you can do and do all the utility, and avoid all avoidable damage.
The raid.io tool doesn't really care about your ilvl, only how well you did on any given run, it rather what your best run was for each dungeon. Keep in mind they reset this number back to zero each "season". Your best bet for getting faster groups is making sure you don't have a 0 in any of the dungeons, meaning do one of each as early as possible each season in highest key you can do in time.
My ilvl is now 430, but i haven't bothered doing half the dungeons yet and it's been a month and a half of season 3, and I'm dps (which are a dime a dozen), so it takes a while to pug. Thanks and healers have an easier time, wastefully tanks since they are even rarer than healers due to the 2/25 tanks needed for a raid but 5/25 tanks needed for dungeons dichotomy.
People are risk averse. The only other alternative is they either pick by ilvl from group finder or the ilvl itself is also hidden and instead once they join the group they get inspected and then kicked off too low for whatever it is the group lead is thinking of. Both sound worse.
The other alternative bring i guess Blizzard themselves putting in some kind of measure if what you have done and how well.
I've been trying a project 60 run in retail to kill time until release.
Juxtaposed against my time on the test server, it's really driven home how incredibly toothless the leveling experience has become. Even without heirlooms I never run out of resources, everything dies in just a few hits, and I'm never in any real danger of dying.
The whole thing just feels very unrewarding and kinda pointless.
Well, and the core problem with this, as I've said in dozens of other threads dozens of other times, is that the retail WoW leveling experience doesn't prepare you at all for M+ and Heroic/Mythic raids. They're completely different games. There are 2-5 skills/spells in your repertoire that you'll never ever use until then, and it'll feel odd and uncomfortable and stressful because you've spent months leveling and not paying attention to that stuff.
Interrupts, for example, are largely ignored until you get into a m+ dungeon. The game should be teaching you more and more about how your class and character work as you play the game, but it just...doesn't.
Yeah fighting defias pillagers teaches you real quick you need to interrupt or stun things.
I mean a bunch of us mostly know what we're doing and we were constantly dying.
I can't imagine how frustrating that is for a new player. But without that "punishment" you don't improve either. You also get the shitty side effect of as soon as they do die, they bail on the group in heroics/mythics. Heaven forbid someone new learn something to.
The whole of wow's modern community is pretty toxic, it's very anti "newb".
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Having played some FFXIV lately, I LOVED that prior to the first dungeon, they had you go into a training area where you can do a few easy quests that teach you some of your classes basic mechanics (positioning for DPS, interrupts, etc), and they reward you with decent gear from doing it to boot. Absolutely a great way to introduce new players to mechanics they might not use or know about.
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ChanusHarbinger of the Spicy Rooster ApocalypseThe Flames of a Thousand Collapsed StarsRegistered Userregular
I've been trying a project 60 run in retail to kill time until release.
Juxtaposed against my time on the test server, it's really driven home how incredibly toothless the leveling experience has become. Even without heirlooms I never run out of resources, everything dies in just a few hits, and I'm never in any real danger of dying.
The whole thing just feels very unrewarding and kinda pointless.
Well, and the core problem with this, as I've said in dozens of other threads dozens of other times, is that the retail WoW leveling experience doesn't prepare you at all for M+ and Heroic/Mythic raids. They're completely different games. There are 2-5 skills/spells in your repertoire that you'll never ever use until then, and it'll feel odd and uncomfortable and stressful because you've spent months leveling and not paying attention to that stuff.
Interrupts, for example, are largely ignored until you get into a m+ dungeon. The game should be teaching you more and more about how your class and character work as you play the game, but it just...doesn't.
Yeah fighting defias pillagers teaches you real quick you need to interrupt or stun things.
I mean a bunch of us mostly know what we're doing and we were constantly dying.
I can't imagine how frustrating that is for a new player. But without that "punishment" you don't improve either. You also get the shitty side effect of as soon as they do die, they bail on the group in heroics/mythics. Heaven forbid someone new learn something to.
The whole of wow's modern community is pretty toxic, it's very anti "newb".
this seems to be the case with a lot of MMOs now
the community doesn't look at these things as games anymore. they have no tolerance for teaching new players or letting people make mistakes and learn from them
this isn't to say all players are like this, certainly there are people out there who actively enjoy helping new players
but overall, that feeling of being able to screw up and learn is gone
Having played some FFXIV lately, I LOVED that prior to the first dungeon, they had you go into a training area where you can do a few easy quests that teach you some of your classes basic mechanics (positioning for DPS, interrupts, etc), and they reward you with decent gear from doing it to boot. Absolutely a great way to introduce new players to mechanics they might not use or know about.
The 14 leveling experience assumes that this is the player's first MMO, which can be good and bad. For easing people into mechanics, it's great, but for people who have been playing WoW forever it can get a bit frustrating.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Having played some FFXIV lately, I LOVED that prior to the first dungeon, they had you go into a training area where you can do a few easy quests that teach you some of your classes basic mechanics (positioning for DPS, interrupts, etc), and they reward you with decent gear from doing it to boot. Absolutely a great way to introduce new players to mechanics they might not use or know about.
The 14 leveling experience assumes that this is the player's first MMO, which can be good and bad. For easing people into mechanics, it's great, but for people who have been playing WoW forever it can get a bit frustrating.
I really loved how FF14 did things while leveling and I had played WoW since classic and didn't start FF14 until the first expansion and major overhaul to the game.
I've been trying a project 60 run in retail to kill time until release.
Juxtaposed against my time on the test server, it's really driven home how incredibly toothless the leveling experience has become. Even without heirlooms I never run out of resources, everything dies in just a few hits, and I'm never in any real danger of dying.
The whole thing just feels very unrewarding and kinda pointless.
Well, and the core problem with this, as I've said in dozens of other threads dozens of other times, is that the retail WoW leveling experience doesn't prepare you at all for M+ and Heroic/Mythic raids. They're completely different games. There are 2-5 skills/spells in your repertoire that you'll never ever use until then, and it'll feel odd and uncomfortable and stressful because you've spent months leveling and not paying attention to that stuff.
Interrupts, for example, are largely ignored until you get into a m+ dungeon. The game should be teaching you more and more about how your class and character work as you play the game, but it just...doesn't.
Yeah fighting defias pillagers teaches you real quick you need to interrupt or stun things.
I mean a bunch of us mostly know what we're doing and we were constantly dying.
I can't imagine how frustrating that is for a new player. But without that "punishment" you don't improve either. You also get the shitty side effect of as soon as they do die, they bail on the group in heroics/mythics. Heaven forbid someone new learn something to.
The whole of wow's modern community is pretty toxic, it's very anti "newb".
this seems to be the case with a lot of MMOs now
the community doesn't look at these things as games anymore. they have no tolerance for teaching new players or letting people make mistakes and learn from them
this isn't to say all players are like this, certainly there are people out there who actively enjoy helping new players
but overall, that feeling of being able to screw up and learn is gone
I think a lot of this mentality comes from access to information. Back in classic we didn't have nearly the amount of info we do now. It was a lot harder to find videos on how to do fights, especially since Youtube was so new at the time. It was expected to need to teach people how to do stuff especially since mob pulls took a decent chunk of coordination and some of the boss fights in dungeons and raids had some tricks to remember and people were way more willing to discuss it before a pull.
With the introduction of achievements and the access to basically every single fight on Youtube or even an entire run people are expected to do their homework and know the fights before hand. M+ are timed and no one wants to fail that timer because someone didn't watch a Youtube video on the ins and outs. Blizzard also added the ability to look up the fights in game, people can literally read a breakdown of the fight while in game and at least see what mechanics are needed and what they are expected to do in their specific role.
Because of this no one has any patience for teaching anyone how to do anything. The idea seems to be that if someone cannot put in the effort to get at least a base understanding then there is no reason to play with that person.
I don't agree with this mentality and it has done a lot of damage to the idea of community in WoW but I also kind of see how it developed. There really is no excuse for going into a fight blind at this point.
I am definitely interested to see how the community on these classic servers develop. Are people still going to be expected to know the ins and outs of each dungeon, raid, and world boss fight? Are elitists going to either leave due to frustration or go to their own server to all congregate?
Community is what I miss from classic so I'm definitely do what I can to help foster that.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
I think the problem with that, as well, is that while I can understand frustration with people for not brushing up on what they're doing that night, not everyone has time for WoW + WoW strategy. Some people just have enough time to play a video game for a few hours and then they're in Mom+Dad mode for the rest of the day. So asking them to watch a 15-30 min video is that much time they're not playing the game that deflates their stress balloon, and they'll reflexively lash out over it.
Like, I'm merely married to a woman who also enjoys games of all kinds, and I run into this problem all the time. I've been fucking staring at that clock all day waiting to get home and do the thing I want to do, and people want me to spend 30-60 minutes figuring it out first, and I'm just like, "But no I....no!"
To be clear, I'm not excusing this attitude, and I definitely want to make clear that I'm being a petulant child when I'm like this.
I don't remember any fights that took more than a couple minutes to explain in classic.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I think the problem with that, as well, is that while I can understand frustration with people for not brushing up on what they're doing that night, not everyone has time for WoW + WoW strategy. Some people just have enough time to play a video game for a few hours and then they're in Mom+Dad mode for the rest of the day. So asking them to watch a 15-30 min video is that much time they're not playing the game that deflates their stress balloon, and they'll reflexively lash out over it.
Like, I'm merely married to a woman who also enjoys games of all kinds, and I run into this problem all the time. I've been fucking staring at that clock all day waiting to get home and do the thing I want to do, and people want me to spend 30-60 minutes figuring it out first, and I'm just like, "But no I....no!"
To be clear, I'm not excusing this attitude, and I definitely want to make clear that I'm being a petulant child when I'm like this.
Not only that, I can read the fight and watch the videos until I'm blue in the face, but until I do it a few times I'm going to fuck it up.
The only fight I think I've one shot was the last spider boss in the spider wing of naxx in wrath.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
Yeah I much prefer to learn fights by doing them. Raid videos on YouTube are often so chaotic I don't know what the hell I'm looking at anyway. Not to mention watching from the perspective of a different class.
But these days all it takes is one wipe for a lot of people to go "Ugh, baddies" and drop group or mysteriously DC.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
It's kinda weird how raids were so much simpler back in classic, but raiders were so much more tenacious. Basic as they were, I remember raids banging their heads against the same boss over and over again for hours until they got it.
Now raids are much more complex, but people have no patience for learners.
It's kinda weird how raids were so much simpler back in classic, but raiders were so much more tenacious. Basic as they were, I remember raids banging their heads against the same boss over and over again for hours until they got it.
Now raids are much more complex, but people have no patience for learners.
Downside to LFD/LFR, there's no community and no social "punishment" for acting like a dickwad.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
It's kinda weird how raids were so much simpler back in classic, but raiders were so much more tenacious. Basic as they were, I remember raids banging their heads against the same boss over and over again for hours until they got it.
Now raids are much more complex, but people have no patience for learners.
Well if you're in LFR and you've lost twice, you're not even teaching the folks who lost with you, there's about 10-15 people who quit and 10-15 people who joined.
Same thing happens with LFG and dungeons. Someone keeps screwing up, just boot them and pick up a replacement. If they're DPS it's a revolving door anyways.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
It's kinda weird how raids were so much simpler back in classic, but raiders were so much more tenacious. Basic as they were, I remember raids banging their heads against the same boss over and over again for hours until they got it.
Now raids are much more complex, but people have no patience for learners.
Part of that is because of the ease of access to information now.
Like, I would absolutely not have patience with a raid that couldn't breeze through Molten Core nowadays. Because it's a fuckin dumb and easy instance.
I just didn't realize that at the time.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I'm kinda looking forward to threat being a thing everyone has to take into consideration again.
I remember back in classic my policy was always to just lower my DPS if the tank wasn't keeping aggro.
Like, yeah stuff dies more slowly - but it dies. And we progress. Instead of the tank losing aggro and the whole group wiping because someone just had to top those meters.
I think MC is easy, but I don't think raiding MC with 40 people will be a cakewalk at all.
But rest assured, as long as 25ish people can survive through the fight and the other 15 only die like 75-50% in you'll down bosses still.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Threat isn't a huge issue until people get really geared.
Sunder + heroic strike is a lot of threat for everything through BWL.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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TTODewbackPuts the drawl in ya'llI think I'm in HellRegistered Userregular
A lot of Blackwing Lair was hell.
I almost had a mental breakdown trying to explain the tranq shot rotation.
Hunters the order is A B C D
Adam you're A
Brian your B
Christy your C
Dianne you're D
A use shot
B use shot
B use shot
B USE SHOT
GOD DAMMIT BRIAN USE YOURE GOD DAMN TRANQ SHOT OR ILL RIP YOUR BALLS OFF AND SHOVE THEM DOWN YOUR THROAT
Christy and Dianne at the same time: I'm tranq shotting!
*runs off and feigns death while the rest of the raid runs around screaming and on fire*
Bless your heart.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
BWL also has a lot of fights where your raid is forced to die because you don't have enough fuckin Onyxia cloaks yet.
Oh, speaking of vanilla raids. You know how I got booted from that raiding guild because I wouldn't download decursive and whatnot?
Well, I was also the guy who posted all the raid strategies on their forums.
And when I got booted they banned me, deleting all my posts.
And all my strats.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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TTODewbackPuts the drawl in ya'llI think I'm in HellRegistered Userregular
edited August 2019
hehehehehe I remember that.
edit: that was actually the same guild wasnt it
TTODewback on
Bless your heart.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Was it? It was Leviticus if that helps.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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TTODewbackPuts the drawl in ya'llI think I'm in HellRegistered Userregular
I remember I got booted from a "hardcore" raiding guild for not showing up to UBRS raids.
This was in the super early days of WoW when you could still raid the 5-man dungeons. We'd go in there with like 15-20 people.
And they were so fucking anal about it. Every pull was laboriously strategized over and everyone got a role. They moved so carefully and so slowly. It was re-goddamn-diculous.
Granted, UBRS was no fucking joke back in those days, but come on.
On top of all that, they wouldn't allow me even a chance at the loot. I was "new" so I didn't get to roll.
So I stopped going. So they booted me.
In retrospect, I think they were "preparing" for raiding using UBRS but holy shit. They took it so seriously. I mean - I'm a mage. I sheep moon, I decurse, I assist tank. I've been doing it for 59 levels, I don't need "practice" I need gear.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
For the record, what happened there was
Warrior A was pissed off that I was number 2 on the meters behind him despite having worse gear and being a dwarf instead of human. I don't know why this made him so mad, but it did.
Warrior A becomes friendly with me, I tell him I don't use any mods because of bad experiences with them in previous guilds
Guild leader fuckin hates me because I do all the damage and she's a warlock and me doing all the damage often means she does less damage. Because of deep wounds.
Warrior A snitches to Guild Leader that I don't use decursive, which was a 'mandatory raid addon' for the guild, even for DPS, knowing that I will absolutely not download it.
Guild Leader tells me I can either download decursive or get booted, I opt for the latter.
The next week the guild doesn't want to do Razorgore because I'm not there.
:rotate:
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I remember I got booted from a "hardcore" raiding guild for not showing up to UBRS raids.
This was in the super early days of WoW when you could still raid the 5-man dungeons. We'd go in there with like 15-20 people.
And they were so fucking anal about it. Every pull was laboriously strategized over and everyone got a role. They moved so carefully and so slowly. It was re-goddamn-diculous.
Granted, UBRS was no fucking joke back in those days, but come on.
On top of all that, they wouldn't allow me even a chance at the loot. I was "new" so I didn't get to roll.
So I stopped going. So they booted me.
In retrospect, I think they were "preparing" for raiding using UBRS but holy shit. They took it so seriously. I mean - I'm a mage. I sheep moon, I decurse, I assist tank. I've been doing it for 59 levels, I don't need "practice" I need gear.
I threw a hissy fit when someone wouldn't let me have a green that was an upgrade because of that weird Need/Greed/DE system that groups were using in the later dungeons. In retrospect it was childish. It was also 100% justified too.
This person who had been playing for a year at that point couldn't understand how someone who just hit 60 would need a green item from stratholme.
not a doctor, not a lawyer, examples I use may not be fully researched so don't take out of context plz, don't @ me
My first experience with loot after transferring to Stormrage at the start of BC was very bad.
They did a weird thing where everybody passed on the group loot roll, and then discussed/manually did /roll for gear. I used the need/greed roll like I was used to and got called a ninja. I learned after that first experience, but I maintain that it was still odd!
My first experience with loot after transferring to Stormrage at the start of BC was very bad.
They did a weird thing where everybody passed on the group loot roll, and then discussed/manually did /roll for gear. I used the need/greed roll like I was used to and got called a ninja. I learned after that first experience, but I maintain that it was still odd!
I threw a hissy fit when someone wouldn't let me have a green that was an upgrade because of that weird Need/Greed/DE system that groups were using in the later dungeons. In retrospect it was childish. It was also 100% justified too.
This person who had been playing for a year at that point couldn't understand how someone who just hit 60 would need a green item from stratholme.
Yeah people seem to have some weird compulsion to complicate the shit out of the loot system when it's so goddamn basic.
I've been seeing people on the official forums discussing how it's "Need on ALL BoE, only greed on BoP" Which... I mean it's just dumb. A BoE might still be an upgrade. And yeah, you can mention that it's an upgrade after the roll if you lose and initiate trade, but it's just so much simpler for everyone except the person who NEEDS it to just roll "Greed".
Once when I was raiding Stratholme (again with the raiding of 5-man) a pretty good blue, BoE staff dropped off a random trash mob. The master-looter was like "Okay, everyone who needs it, roll"
So we all rolled and the winner won with like a 94 or something and I was runner-up with like 89 or whatever. Then the winner (a hunter, of course) is like "Oh nvm, I thought that was a spear."
So the master-looter is like, "Oh, okay. Everyone roll again."
And I'm like, "Uh, no. Just give it to the runner-up. Which is me. You know, the guy who would've won if the hunter wasn't a moron."
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Yeah fighting defias pillagers teaches you real quick you need to interrupt or stun things.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
I can see why they did it. They wanted to make content more accessible to everyone but still provide a challenge to more hardcore players. They basically just ported the idea of rifts over from Diablo 3 (a game which I also was massively disappointed with).
But it just feels... I dunno, pointless. Normal is a joke, Heroic is easy. Mythic is "normal" and Mythic+ is just infinitely scaling Health/Damage and random modifiers.
Then you grind your Mythic 5 so you can get the gear to grind a Mythic 6 so you can grind a Mythic 7 so you can grind a Mythic 8 and so on and so on. The game has always been a treadmill but it never used to feel so much like a treadmill.
And the loot feels so bland. Like it's all just generic, formula-generated "this class needs STAMINA + PRIMARY STAT at DUNGEON LEVEL +%"
And the groups these days just seem so much more toxic. I really miss the days before your utility to the group was dismissed with a glace at your iLvl. When it was okay that my character did "enough" DPS instead of "THE MOST DPS". If I was already over-geared for this raid/dungeon, why the fuck would I be doing it?
And trying to help them out is impossible, no one can take things constructively.
The reason people use this tool is because a high ilvl means high potential dps, but we've all been in a group with someone who had ilvl but didn't know their rotation, didn't know what an interrupt is, and stands in every bad. Conversely, you can be lower ilvl and do the best theoretical dps you can do and do all the utility, and avoid all avoidable damage.
The raid.io tool doesn't really care about your ilvl, only how well you did on any given run, it rather what your best run was for each dungeon. Keep in mind they reset this number back to zero each "season". Your best bet for getting faster groups is making sure you don't have a 0 in any of the dungeons, meaning do one of each as early as possible each season in highest key you can do in time.
My ilvl is now 430, but i haven't bothered doing half the dungeons yet and it's been a month and a half of season 3, and I'm dps (which are a dime a dozen), so it takes a while to pug. Thanks and healers have an easier time, wastefully tanks since they are even rarer than healers due to the 2/25 tanks needed for a raid but 5/25 tanks needed for dungeons dichotomy.
People are risk averse. The only other alternative is they either pick by ilvl from group finder or the ilvl itself is also hidden and instead once they join the group they get inspected and then kicked off too low for whatever it is the group lead is thinking of. Both sound worse.
The other alternative bring i guess Blizzard themselves putting in some kind of measure if what you have done and how well.
I mean a bunch of us mostly know what we're doing and we were constantly dying.
I can't imagine how frustrating that is for a new player. But without that "punishment" you don't improve either. You also get the shitty side effect of as soon as they do die, they bail on the group in heroics/mythics. Heaven forbid someone new learn something to.
The whole of wow's modern community is pretty toxic, it's very anti "newb".
this seems to be the case with a lot of MMOs now
the community doesn't look at these things as games anymore. they have no tolerance for teaching new players or letting people make mistakes and learn from them
this isn't to say all players are like this, certainly there are people out there who actively enjoy helping new players
but overall, that feeling of being able to screw up and learn is gone
The 14 leveling experience assumes that this is the player's first MMO, which can be good and bad. For easing people into mechanics, it's great, but for people who have been playing WoW forever it can get a bit frustrating.
I really loved how FF14 did things while leveling and I had played WoW since classic and didn't start FF14 until the first expansion and major overhaul to the game.
I think a lot of this mentality comes from access to information. Back in classic we didn't have nearly the amount of info we do now. It was a lot harder to find videos on how to do fights, especially since Youtube was so new at the time. It was expected to need to teach people how to do stuff especially since mob pulls took a decent chunk of coordination and some of the boss fights in dungeons and raids had some tricks to remember and people were way more willing to discuss it before a pull.
With the introduction of achievements and the access to basically every single fight on Youtube or even an entire run people are expected to do their homework and know the fights before hand. M+ are timed and no one wants to fail that timer because someone didn't watch a Youtube video on the ins and outs. Blizzard also added the ability to look up the fights in game, people can literally read a breakdown of the fight while in game and at least see what mechanics are needed and what they are expected to do in their specific role.
Because of this no one has any patience for teaching anyone how to do anything. The idea seems to be that if someone cannot put in the effort to get at least a base understanding then there is no reason to play with that person.
I don't agree with this mentality and it has done a lot of damage to the idea of community in WoW but I also kind of see how it developed. There really is no excuse for going into a fight blind at this point.
I am definitely interested to see how the community on these classic servers develop. Are people still going to be expected to know the ins and outs of each dungeon, raid, and world boss fight? Are elitists going to either leave due to frustration or go to their own server to all congregate?
Community is what I miss from classic so I'm definitely do what I can to help foster that.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Like, I'm merely married to a woman who also enjoys games of all kinds, and I run into this problem all the time. I've been fucking staring at that clock all day waiting to get home and do the thing I want to do, and people want me to spend 30-60 minutes figuring it out first, and I'm just like, "But no I....no!"
To be clear, I'm not excusing this attitude, and I definitely want to make clear that I'm being a petulant child when I'm like this.
Razorgore.
That fight could be broken down by role at least to make it shorter.
Not only that, I can read the fight and watch the videos until I'm blue in the face, but until I do it a few times I'm going to fuck it up.
The only fight I think I've one shot was the last spider boss in the spider wing of naxx in wrath.
In some raids, you'll likely adapt it or come up with a new one entirely.
But these days all it takes is one wipe for a lot of people to go "Ugh, baddies" and drop group or mysteriously DC.
Yes, but explaining what the roles were took a long ass time.
Especially with the kiters because they needed to do specific things and take a very specific path through the encounter.
90% of raid fights though were just "clump up, move out of fire, hit boss man, hit adds, good game"
Now raids are much more complex, but people have no patience for learners.
Downside to LFD/LFR, there's no community and no social "punishment" for acting like a dickwad.
Well if you're in LFR and you've lost twice, you're not even teaching the folks who lost with you, there's about 10-15 people who quit and 10-15 people who joined.
Same thing happens with LFG and dungeons. Someone keeps screwing up, just boot them and pick up a replacement. If they're DPS it's a revolving door anyways.
Part of that is because of the ease of access to information now.
Like, I would absolutely not have patience with a raid that couldn't breeze through Molten Core nowadays. Because it's a fuckin dumb and easy instance.
I just didn't realize that at the time.
I remember back in classic my policy was always to just lower my DPS if the tank wasn't keeping aggro.
Like, yeah stuff dies more slowly - but it dies. And we progress. Instead of the tank losing aggro and the whole group wiping because someone just had to top those meters.
But rest assured, as long as 25ish people can survive through the fight and the other 15 only die like 75-50% in you'll down bosses still.
Sunder + heroic strike is a lot of threat for everything through BWL.
I almost had a mental breakdown trying to explain the tranq shot rotation.
Hunters the order is A B C D
Adam you're A
Brian your B
Christy your C
Dianne you're D
A use shot
B use shot
B use shot
B USE SHOT
GOD DAMMIT BRIAN USE YOURE GOD DAMN TRANQ SHOT OR ILL RIP YOUR BALLS OFF AND SHOVE THEM DOWN YOUR THROAT
Christy and Dianne at the same time: I'm tranq shotting!
*runs off and feigns death while the rest of the raid runs around screaming and on fire*
Oh, speaking of vanilla raids. You know how I got booted from that raiding guild because I wouldn't download decursive and whatnot?
Well, I was also the guy who posted all the raid strategies on their forums.
And when I got booted they banned me, deleting all my posts.
And all my strats.
edit: that was actually the same guild wasnt it
Oh no it wasn't that one. I just remember the whole decursive thing from another incident with you. Maybe that was the BoUS on Emerald Dream
This was in the super early days of WoW when you could still raid the 5-man dungeons. We'd go in there with like 15-20 people.
And they were so fucking anal about it. Every pull was laboriously strategized over and everyone got a role. They moved so carefully and so slowly. It was re-goddamn-diculous.
Granted, UBRS was no fucking joke back in those days, but come on.
On top of all that, they wouldn't allow me even a chance at the loot. I was "new" so I didn't get to roll.
So I stopped going. So they booted me.
In retrospect, I think they were "preparing" for raiding using UBRS but holy shit. They took it so seriously. I mean - I'm a mage. I sheep moon, I decurse, I assist tank. I've been doing it for 59 levels, I don't need "practice" I need gear.
Warrior A was pissed off that I was number 2 on the meters behind him despite having worse gear and being a dwarf instead of human. I don't know why this made him so mad, but it did.
Warrior A becomes friendly with me, I tell him I don't use any mods because of bad experiences with them in previous guilds
Guild leader fuckin hates me because I do all the damage and she's a warlock and me doing all the damage often means she does less damage. Because of deep wounds.
Warrior A snitches to Guild Leader that I don't use decursive, which was a 'mandatory raid addon' for the guild, even for DPS, knowing that I will absolutely not download it.
Guild Leader tells me I can either download decursive or get booted, I opt for the latter.
The next week the guild doesn't want to do Razorgore because I'm not there.
:rotate:
AQ 20 and ZG
I threw a hissy fit when someone wouldn't let me have a green that was an upgrade because of that weird Need/Greed/DE system that groups were using in the later dungeons. In retrospect it was childish. It was also 100% justified too.
This person who had been playing for a year at that point couldn't understand how someone who just hit 60 would need a green item from stratholme.
They did a weird thing where everybody passed on the group loot roll, and then discussed/manually did /roll for gear. I used the need/greed roll like I was used to and got called a ninja. I learned after that first experience, but I maintain that it was still odd!
That's indeed super fucking odd.
Yeah people seem to have some weird compulsion to complicate the shit out of the loot system when it's so goddamn basic.
I've been seeing people on the official forums discussing how it's "Need on ALL BoE, only greed on BoP" Which... I mean it's just dumb. A BoE might still be an upgrade. And yeah, you can mention that it's an upgrade after the roll if you lose and initiate trade, but it's just so much simpler for everyone except the person who NEEDS it to just roll "Greed".
Once when I was raiding Stratholme (again with the raiding of 5-man) a pretty good blue, BoE staff dropped off a random trash mob. The master-looter was like "Okay, everyone who needs it, roll"
So we all rolled and the winner won with like a 94 or something and I was runner-up with like 89 or whatever. Then the winner (a hunter, of course) is like "Oh nvm, I thought that was a spear."
So the master-looter is like, "Oh, okay. Everyone roll again."
And I'm like, "Uh, no. Just give it to the runner-up. Which is me. You know, the guy who would've won if the hunter wasn't a moron."
"Nooo just everyone roll again."
So we roll again and I lose. Good times.