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How Much for One Meritocracy, Please? [College Admissions Scam]

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  • zepherinzepherin Russian warship, go fuck yourself Registered User regular
    discrider wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    The schools themselves were the victims of fraud, not the perpetrators. Reforms could attempt to make decisions less discretionary, or more transparent, but that's about all you can do without still ultimately relying on humans not abusing their position.

    Not sure I agree.
    Do we know if any of the schools detected the fraudulent admissions cases when the students sucked at the sport and/or classes?

    If the students otherwise performed to standard, then I don't think the school was harmed at all, as the quality of their alumni was not harmed.
    If they did not, and they were still allowed to graduate, then the schools have perpetuated the fraud through not giving appropriate care to the quality of students that graduated through them.

    The third option is that the schools noticed their new intake had the handwriting skills of a primary school kid, and informed the authorities whilst preventing the student from graduating, and then I'm not sure what harm there would have been done to the school.
    I guess they don't get paid for the classes the ejected student won't be attending?
    Actually this question might be a lawyer question. Could the student successfully sue the school if they expelled the student based on their parents misconduct?

    Because the school is in a contract with the student not the parents. I don’t know if this constitutes a breach, and colleges fall in a weird area of law.

  • SummaryJudgmentSummaryJudgment Grab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front door Registered User regular
    edited April 2019
    zepherin wrote: »
    discrider wrote: »
    moniker wrote: »
    The schools themselves were the victims of fraud, not the perpetrators. Reforms could attempt to make decisions less discretionary, or more transparent, but that's about all you can do without still ultimately relying on humans not abusing their position.

    Not sure I agree.
    Do we know if any of the schools detected the fraudulent admissions cases when the students sucked at the sport and/or classes?

    If the students otherwise performed to standard, then I don't think the school was harmed at all, as the quality of their alumni was not harmed.
    If they did not, and they were still allowed to graduate, then the schools have perpetuated the fraud through not giving appropriate care to the quality of students that graduated through them.

    The third option is that the schools noticed their new intake had the handwriting skills of a primary school kid, and informed the authorities whilst preventing the student from graduating, and then I'm not sure what harm there would have been done to the school.
    I guess they don't get paid for the classes the ejected student won't be attending?
    Actually this question might be a lawyer question. Could the student successfully sue the school if they expelled the student based on their parents misconduct?

    Because the school is in a contract with the student not the parents. I don’t know if this constitutes a breach, and colleges fall in a weird area of law.

    Initial reaction: the school isn't in contract with the parents - John Doe Coach is, and he's acting outside of the bounds of any appropriate agency or apparent authority vested in him by the school

    In any case, it'd be a contract to commit a fraud so it's void out the gate for illegality

    I'm willing to bet there is an attestation somewhere where these students ratified their application materials as being full and compete, so outside of the edge cases where parents fixed the ACT and not the sports-admission fraud, I wouldn't think that's looking good

    SummaryJudgment on
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  • discriderdiscrider Registered User regular
    I imagine the school could sue the admissions organisation for any damages done by students with forged scores anyway.
    Like the two things in this case appear to be bribes to coaches and testing centres forging results for students, both being coordinated by a central (fraud) company.

  • DisruptedCapitalistDisruptedCapitalist I swear! Registered User regular
    So, the parents are getting all the news, but are the coaches being prosecuted too? Or the people who forged exams on behalf of the parents?

    "Simple, real stupidity beats artificial intelligence every time." -Mustrum Ridcully in Terry Pratchett's Hogfather p. 142 (HarperPrism 1996)
  • lazegamerlazegamer The magnanimous cyberspaceRegistered User regular
    So, the parents are getting all the news, but are the coaches being prosecuted too? Or the people who forged exams on behalf of the parents?

    9 coaches were in the initial charges filed. Nyt paywall, but this has everyone.

    https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/12/us/felicity-huffman-lori-loughlin-massimo-giannulli.html

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    Why I Love My Fucking Alma Mater, Fucking Damnit Edition:
    Emails among athletics, admissions and fundraising officials at the University of Southern California show the school explicitly weighed how much money applicants’ families could donate when determining whether to admit students.

    The messages were filed Tuesday in a Boston federal court by a lawyer for two parents accused in the nationwide college-admissions cheating scandal. He claims USC wasn’t a victim of any scheme, but rather based admission decisions in part on expectations of donations from well-heeled families.

    There is a long-held assumption that money influences college admissions, but the 18 previously undisclosed documents, obtained during the discovery process in the case, appear to make the direct connection in stark terms.

    They include intricate spreadsheets color-coded by university officials to track “special-interest applicants”—applicants flagged for their connections to USC officials, trustees, donors or other VIPs—with direct references to past and prospective dollar amounts of gifts from their families.

    Also included are email exchanges about specific candidates whose qualifications were portrayed as questionable by admissions and other officials but whose family ties and bank funds won out.

    “VIP” students were described in spreadsheets with references like “given 2 million already,” “1 mil pledge,” “Previously donated $25k to Heritage Hall” and “father is surgeon,” the filings show.

    (repeated headdesk until the hurting stops)

    This is part of why I don't donate, by the way.

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  • tynictynic PICNIC BADASS Registered User, ClubPA regular
    For profit education is fucking insane

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    tynic wrote: »
    For profit education is fucking insane

    USC isn't a for-profit university (it's a private non-profit university.) What it is, though, is infested with terminal goosiness.

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  • PolaritiePolaritie Sleepy Registered User regular
    So how does that impact the case? IANAL, but... it seems like it doesn't directly undermine the charge but definitely makes USC unsympathetic (in a "they're just as guilty" sort of way).

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  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    edited September 2019
    Polaritie wrote: »
    So how does that impact the case? IANAL, but... it seems like it doesn't directly undermine the charge but definitely makes USC unsympathetic (in a "they're just as guilty" sort of way).

    Which could be enough - paint the school as greed focused, and you could potentially sway a jury.

    Edit: Seems like they could also be arguing that they were just playing the secret game that USC had with their "VIP" admits, so they weren't engaged in fraud.

    AngelHedgie on
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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    tynic wrote: »
    For profit education is fucking insane

    USC isn't a for-profit university (it's a private non-profit university.) What it is, though, is infested with terminal goosiness.

    Yeah, profit is just an accounting term/definition of where money is spent in an organization.

  • AthenorAthenor Battle Hardened Optimist The Skies of HiigaraRegistered User regular
    Is there a non-paywall version? I want to share this with my admissions folks as more evidence of what we should NOT be doing.

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  • monikermoniker Registered User regular
    Athenor wrote: »
    Is there a non-paywall version? I want to share this with my admissions folks as more evidence of what we should NOT be doing.

    The online resources of your local public library.

  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    Polaritie wrote: »
    So how does that impact the case? IANAL, but... it seems like it doesn't directly undermine the charge but definitely makes USC unsympathetic (in a "they're just as guilty" sort of way).

    Which could be enough - paint the school as greed focused, and you could potentially sway a jury.

    Edit: Seems like they could also be arguing that they were just playing the secret game that USC had with their "VIP" admits, so they weren't engaged in fraud.

    I suspect the latter argument could pull some real weight with a jury, and also why I imagine from the start these schools would rather this admission case just quietly went away. If the defense can produce documents that show the schools had a direct hand in creating and reinforcing this underground rating system, and how the system was supporting a cottage industry of businesses selling services to navigate it...that's a real problem. Some of the administrators that took money are probably still f'd, but it will probably get the parents off the hook.

  • ZibblsnrtZibblsnrt Registered User regular
    I mean, it's at least considerate of the university to put all those shenanigans in writing in that obvious a way, especially the fun bits like that discussion that implies they were threatening to decline an admissions application unless the parents ponied up a donation...

  • Lord_AsmodeusLord_Asmodeus goeticSobriquet: Here is your magical cryptic riddle-tumour: I AM A TIME MACHINERegistered User regular
    Dark_Side wrote: »
    Polaritie wrote: »
    So how does that impact the case? IANAL, but... it seems like it doesn't directly undermine the charge but definitely makes USC unsympathetic (in a "they're just as guilty" sort of way).

    Which could be enough - paint the school as greed focused, and you could potentially sway a jury.

    Edit: Seems like they could also be arguing that they were just playing the secret game that USC had with their "VIP" admits, so they weren't engaged in fraud.

    I suspect the latter argument could pull some real weight with a jury, and also why I imagine from the start these schools would rather this admission case just quietly went away. If the defense can produce documents that show the schools had a direct hand in creating and reinforcing this underground rating system, and how the system was supporting a cottage industry of businesses selling services to navigate it...that's a real problem. Some of the administrators that took money are probably still f'd, but it will probably get the parents off the hook.

    Yeah, I'd have to know more about the whole thing but this certainly puts a different perspective on the whole situation at least.

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  • Gnome-InterruptusGnome-Interruptus Registered User regular
    The schools were never upset about the students getting in, it was always about their reputation and the parents and staff finding a way to cut the administrators out of the loop.

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  • MayabirdMayabird Pecking at the keyboardRegistered User regular
    Felicity Huffman was sentenced for cheating her feckless daughter into college...a slap on the wrist. A whole grand fourteen days in jail, a $30,000 fine, and some community service, so basically this rich famous lady got off scot free. Meanwhile, a black woman who claimed residency in a place where she wasn't resident so her son could go to a better elementary school had gotten sentenced five years in jail and five on probation.

    So yeah, this sounds about white.

  • LostNinjaLostNinja Registered User regular
    Mayabird wrote: »
    Felicity Huffman was sentenced for cheating her feckless daughter into college...a slap on the wrist. A whole grand fourteen days in jail, a $30,000 fine, and some community service, so basically this rich famous lady got off scot free. Meanwhile, a black woman who claimed residency in a place where she wasn't resident so her son could go to a better elementary school had gotten sentenced five years in jail and five on probation.

    So yeah, this sounds about white.

    I think this is much more a problem with the latter case than the admissions one. A couple weeks and a fine sounds right for a non-violent crime that someone is unlikely to repeat (the PR in this case has been the real punishment).

  • mcdermottmcdermott Registered User regular
    LostNinja wrote: »
    Mayabird wrote: »
    Felicity Huffman was sentenced for cheating her feckless daughter into college...a slap on the wrist. A whole grand fourteen days in jail, a $30,000 fine, and some community service, so basically this rich famous lady got off scot free. Meanwhile, a black woman who claimed residency in a place where she wasn't resident so her son could go to a better elementary school had gotten sentenced five years in jail and five on probation.

    So yeah, this sounds about white.

    I think this is much more a problem with the latter case than the admissions one. A couple weeks and a fine sounds right for a non-violent crime that someone is unlikely to repeat (the PR in this case has been the real punishment).

    The fine is a joke for an actress who makes that for a single scene. But otherwise yes, agree.

  • AngelHedgieAngelHedgie Registered User regular
    And so, the story ends with Aunt Becky getting two months in Club Fed, as per reporter Yashar Ali:

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  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Is that sentence deferred, or "home confinement"? Cause I can't imagine they'll send a celebrity into prison at the moment.

    And if it's home confinement, FUCK. THAT. SHIT. That's the same punishment every fucking reasonable person is already paying.

  • ElJeffeElJeffe Moderator, ClubPA mod
    Ten bucks says they end up serving house arrest for pandemic reasons.

    At which point they're basically sentenced to the same punishment as everyone else living in California.

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  • ShadowfireShadowfire Vermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered User regular
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Ten bucks says they end up serving house arrest for pandemic reasons.

    At which point they're basically sentenced to the same punishment as everyone else living in California.

    So they're going to burn alive?

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  • RingoRingo He/Him a distinct lack of substanceRegistered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Ten bucks says they end up serving house arrest for pandemic reasons.

    At which point they're basically sentenced to the same punishment as everyone else living in California.

    So they're going to burn alive?

    Be reasonable here

    The smoke will get you before the fire

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  • UrsusUrsus Registered User regular
    Shadowfire wrote: »
    ElJeffe wrote: »
    Ten bucks says they end up serving house arrest for pandemic reasons.

    At which point they're basically sentenced to the same punishment as everyone else living in California.

    So they're going to burn alive?

    House arrest can probably be extended to their numerous vacation homes. As well as their main house, and travel between them.

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