ApogeeLancks In Every Game EverRegistered Userregular
My takeaway from all this (so far) is that it's more of an industry issue than an art issue. Like, I don't care what colour the skin of a VA is any more than I do for a painter or musician - how good the art is does not rely on their personal background (although it may affect what they create).
I'll keep it in mind for the future, but it doesn't really affect my enjoyment of BoJack the Horseman.
0
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
My takeaway from all this (so far) is that it's more of an industry issue than an art issue. Like, I don't care what colour the skin of a VA is any more than I do for a painter or musician - how good the art is does not rely on their personal background (although it may affect what they create).
I'll keep it in mind for the future, but it doesn't really affect my enjoyment of BoJack the Horseman.
If we are acknowledging that a person's personal background may affect what they create, couldn't it affect the quality of their art as well? Those aren't separate scales.
Ignoring the fact that localization is a separate art--still incredibly valuable, but by its nature transformative and dependent on the original product--why on Earth would the fact that there will be other voice actors have any bearing on whether or not it's okay to deprive a person of color from a role that fits them? It's not necessarily reasonable to expect the studio to find Vietnamese-American actors that are fluent in all the other languages the role is being localized to (although if there are ones available it would be nice if they got those jobs, as they would be uniquely qualified), but it is reasonable to expect them to hire people who fit the roles WHEN POSSIBLE. This is some weird calculus to try and twist the concept of "what is right" around details that are completely beside the point.
+1
Raijin QuickfootI'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPAregular
You don't have to care about the skin color of any person in art. You can watch a show where every character is a black person voiced by a white person. That's your prerogative.
However, it absolutely matters and you SHOULD care because it's a huge deal that minorities get proper representation in art and right now that doesn't happen way too often.
+3
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered Userregular
My takeaway from all this (so far) is that it's more of an industry issue than an art issue. Like, I don't care what colour the skin of a VA is any more than I do for a painter or musician - how good the art is does not rely on their personal background (although it may affect what they create).
Do you honestly believe this?
Do you honestly believe race isn't a part in the development of art?
Zonugal on
0
StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
Also, just as a side note because there seems to be a kernel of it in your post, I don't think anyone here is saying that you should dislike BoJack Horseman now. I'm pretty sure everyone active in this thread at this point is here because they're a big fan of the show - this isn't like the general TV thread or anything like that, it's a thread just for talking about BoJack Horseman.
When we call something out as problematic, we're not saying that you have to hate the product and all of its creators because of that (I'm sure if someone around here wants to do that, they will). We're just saying that you should be aware of those problems, if they previously passed you by. Be aware of the fact that those problems passed you by, and what that might say about yourself.
+8
Raijin QuickfootI'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPAregular
What always makes me chuckle is that the biggest stink is always made when they make a white character a minority.
Hoo boy do white people hate that
+5
ApogeeLancks In Every Game EverRegistered Userregular
You don't have to care about the skin color of any person in art. You can watch a show where every character is a black person voiced by a white person. That's your prerogative.
However, it absolutely matters and you SHOULD care because it's a huge deal that minorities get proper representation in art and right now that doesn't happen way too often.
Well, yeah. That's why I used the term 'industry problem'. If minorities aren't getting hired just cause they're minorities that is obviously not good and should be rectified - a larger talent pool will invariably bring better talent. Same goes for the writing team, which I maintain is more important in this instance (as per the article discussion before).
My issue is the giant beef that there seems to be with Diane; it seems to me like a weird place to say 'hey, this is too far'. I don't know enough VAs to know if there are better (worse?) examples, but Diane being played by a white person isn't a stretch - a major part of her character is that she was brought up to be well, white. Her parents imbued her with zero background knowledge of her heritage or traditions and to be as homogeneous as possible. I'd argue an ethnic Vietnamese VA would be further away from her character background.
If they could find someone to be a better match for that, then sure, they'd be a better pick as VA. That's a pretty small target, though...
0
Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered Userregular
You don't have to care about the skin color of any person in art. You can watch a show where every character is a black person voiced by a white person. That's your prerogative.
However, it absolutely matters and you SHOULD care because it's a huge deal that minorities get proper representation in art and right now that doesn't happen way too often.
Well, yeah. That's why I used the term 'industry problem'. If minorities aren't getting hired just cause they're minorities that is obviously not good and should be rectified - a larger talent pool will invariably bring better talent. Same goes for the writing team, which I maintain is more important in this instance (as per the article discussion before).
My issue is the giant beef that there seems to be with Diane; it seems to me like a weird place to say 'hey, this is too far'. I don't know enough VAs to know if there are better (worse?) examples, but Diane being played by a white person isn't a stretch - a major part of her character is that she was brought up to be well, white. Her parents imbued her with zero background knowledge of her heritage or traditions and to be as homogeneous as possible. I'd argue an ethnic Vietnamese VA would be further away from her character background.
If they could find someone to be a better match for that, then sure, they'd be a better pick as VA. That's a pretty small target, though...
Why couldn't they just do a casting search for female Asian-American voice actors who grew up in the states?
I feel like you only skimmed that article because it praises the writing team for that episode and specifically critiques Brie’s performance. But you keep going back to Brie doing a good job and the writers fucking up, which is the opposite of what that article is saying.
You don't have to care about the skin color of any person in art. You can watch a show where every character is a black person voiced by a white person. That's your prerogative.
However, it absolutely matters and you SHOULD care because it's a huge deal that minorities get proper representation in art and right now that doesn't happen way too often.
Well, yeah. That's why I used the term 'industry problem'. If minorities aren't getting hired just cause they're minorities that is obviously not good and should be rectified - a larger talent pool will invariably bring better talent. Same goes for the writing team, which I maintain is more important in this instance (as per the article discussion before).
My issue is the giant beef that there seems to be with Diane; it seems to me like a weird place to say 'hey, this is too far'. I don't know enough VAs to know if there are better (worse?) examples, but Diane being played by a white person isn't a stretch - a major part of her character is that she was brought up to be well, white. Her parents imbued her with zero background knowledge of her heritage or traditions and to be as homogeneous as possible. I'd argue an ethnic Vietnamese VA would be further away from her character background.
If they could find someone to be a better match for that, then sure, they'd be a better pick as VA. That's a pretty small target, though...
Why couldn't they just do a casting search for female Asian-American voice actors who grew up in the states?
Is that so hard?
You can tell its not because the original VA was Asian-American but she had to drop out.
+1
ApogeeLancks In Every Game EverRegistered Userregular
I feel like you only skimmed that article because it praises the writing team for that episode and specifically critiques Brie’s performance. But you keep going back to Brie doing a good job and the writers fucking up, which is the opposite of what that article is saying.
I won’t disparage the nuances and depth that Brie does bring to the character at certain points, but I have to explain what she can’t possibly bring.
...
However, I have doubts that the writers have given this much thought into Diane’s parents and family history.
...
At the very least, the writers could have done some basic research about Vietnamese American history.
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But, again, because there wasn’t a Vietnamese writer on the team how could the writers possibly know this niche cultural fact about Vietnamese social media use?
...
We need them to hire a Vietnamese writer and do their research.
I think I got the gist of it. Yes, Brie may not have been the best choice for the role. But I think the issue started in the writer's room, not the recording studio.
I feel like you only skimmed that article because it praises the writing team for that episode and specifically critiques Brie’s performance. But you keep going back to Brie doing a good job and the writers fucking up, which is the opposite of what that article is saying.
I won’t disparage the nuances and depth that Brie does bring to the character at certain points, but I have to explain what she can’t possibly bring.
...
However, I have doubts that the writers have given this much thought into Diane’s parents and family history.
...
At the very least, the writers could have done some basic research about Vietnamese American history.
...
But, again, because there wasn’t a Vietnamese writer on the team how could the writers possibly know this niche cultural fact about Vietnamese social media use?
...
We need them to hire a Vietnamese writer and do their research.
I think I got the gist of it. Yes, Brie may not have been the best choice for the role. But I think the issue started in the writer's room, not the recording studio.
So because there are faults in the writing, we shouldn't criticize the faults in the casting or the performance?
It's actually impossible for a white person to be the most qualified actor to play a vietnamese character and the only reason they would get hired is because of their race
My stance is that for minority characters, they ought to be voiced by that minority if the option exists.
So for BoJack Horseman, they should have done better.
But on a show like Futurama where you're just going to hire a group of five voice actors to voice every character on the show? Yeah, hire the best of the best as their versatility & talent are the most important element (in that situation).
I dunno, with Futurama, couldn't they hire like three or four more people permanently, and bring in people on the side for smaller roles, is that really a big of a thing?
It's probably more of a logistical problem when you got a character like Scruffy who has one line every 10 episodes. You can't have a whole different voice actor for him.
I like where it ended and the individual episodes were pretty much all great, but as a whole I'm a little let down by it
It feels like they're getting a little bored with the show and the ratio of regular episodes to gimmick ones is climbing ever higher with each season to where it felt like a solid third-to-half of this season was concept episodes, like they wish they were making Legion or something
and this is a more minor issue but the throwaway "Hollywood!!!" jokes are starting to bug me, we're really getting into the characters in this scene, I don't need you to add in a slam on Jessica Chastain's career, that adds nothing for me and actually just detracts from the purpose of the scene
+1
Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
Considering how last season left me with a bad taste in my mouth I'm honestly considering waiting to hear if BoJack never gets better or Penny's mom kills him (a surprisingly popular fan theory, btw) or whatever in the last season before I watch it.
I want a hopeful ending for this show, but I'm afraid it'll end up with the mentally ill protagonist failing to ever overcome his issues.
BTW, on the topic of voice casting, is it considered not as bad if a minority is cast for a character of a different minority? I know the voice actress for Connie in Steven Universe isn't South Asian (according to Wikipedia she's of African American, Italian, Polish and Japanese descent) and I'm a bit concerned she might get hate for it.
Considering how last season left me with a bad taste in my mouth I'm honestly considering waiting to hear if BoJack never gets better or Penny's mom kills him (a surprisingly popular fan theory, btw) or whatever in the last season before I watch it.
I want a hopeful ending for this show, but I'm afraid it'll end up with the mentally ill protagonist failing to ever overcome his issues.
BTW, on the topic of voice casting, is it considered not as bad if a minority is cast for a character of a different minority? I know the voice actress for Connie in Steven Universe isn't South Asian (according to Wikipedia she's of African American, Italian, Polish and Japanese descent) and I'm a bit concerned she might get hate for it.
The funny thing to me is that up until like two years ago even pretty much everybody on this forum agreed that it was fine. It really does seem like an example of us just all waking up and realizing that something that had been going on forever was kind of fucked. I think what Bojack‘s lead writer demonstrated Is that if you take responsibility and acknowledge the mistake people are generally willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I imagine if confronted Rebecca Sugar would have no problem doing that. Also I could be completely wrong as I am white and don’t really have skin in this game but I would suspect that while it is still wrong the people affected might be less bothered that the actor is still a person of color. In the sense that one of the big reasons that white washing is a huge problem is that it’s an excuse not to put non-white faces on the screen.
Brovid Hasselsmof[Growling historic on the fury road]Registered Userregular
I'd rather they end it while it's still good than it go on until it runs out of ideas or collapses under it's own weight.
The last season was one of my favourites and I have a lot of faith in them ending it right. Hopefully they knew it would be the end before making the season so they can finish it off properly.
Cynically I wonder how much ending it had to do with the animation studio unionising (see also Tuca and Bertie [watch it.. now.. I'll wait..] not being renewed) but I also feel like it's not a bad time to wrap this one up. Time to do something else, give new people a voice.
Considering how last season left me with a bad taste in my mouth I'm honestly considering waiting to hear if BoJack never gets better or Penny's mom kills him (a surprisingly popular fan theory, btw) or whatever in the last season before I watch it.
I want a hopeful ending for this show, but I'm afraid it'll end up with the mentally ill protagonist failing to ever overcome his issues.
BTW, on the topic of voice casting, is it considered not as bad if a minority is cast for a character of a different minority? I know the voice actress for Connie in Steven Universe isn't South Asian (according to Wikipedia she's of African American, Italian, Polish and Japanese descent) and I'm a bit concerned she might get hate for it.
The funny thing to me is that up until like two years ago even pretty much everybody on this forum agreed that it was fine. It really does seem like an example of us just all waking up and realizing that something that had been going on forever was kind of fucked. I think what Bojack‘s lead writer demonstrated Is that if you take responsibility and acknowledge the mistake people are generally willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I imagine if confronted Rebecca Sugar would have no problem doing that. Also I could be completely wrong as I am white and don’t really have skin in this game but I would suspect that while it is still wrong the people affected might be less bothered that the actor is still a person of color. In the sense that one of the big reasons that white washing is a huge problem is that it’s an excuse not to put non-white faces on the screen.
It's a touchy subject. People want to be represented, both on-screen and audibly. There's power in seeing yourself or someone who looks like you or talks like you in media.
That said, I can never give up Phil LaMarr as Samurai Jack. That dude has such a perfectly amazing voice.
It feels less problematic when a person of color handles the voice of a character of another background than when a 'default' white person does it, so long as it's handled respectfully in the portrayal. In the future we should still try to cast actors that have real, legitimate ties wherever possible.
Of course, I'm a white dude so I'm willing to be wrong and learn more about these matters.
Posts
I'll keep it in mind for the future, but it doesn't really affect my enjoyment of BoJack the Horseman.
If we are acknowledging that a person's personal background may affect what they create, couldn't it affect the quality of their art as well? Those aren't separate scales.
However, it absolutely matters and you SHOULD care because it's a huge deal that minorities get proper representation in art and right now that doesn't happen way too often.
Do you honestly believe this?
Do you honestly believe race isn't a part in the development of art?
When we call something out as problematic, we're not saying that you have to hate the product and all of its creators because of that (I'm sure if someone around here wants to do that, they will). We're just saying that you should be aware of those problems, if they previously passed you by. Be aware of the fact that those problems passed you by, and what that might say about yourself.
Hoo boy do white people hate that
Well, yeah. That's why I used the term 'industry problem'. If minorities aren't getting hired just cause they're minorities that is obviously not good and should be rectified - a larger talent pool will invariably bring better talent. Same goes for the writing team, which I maintain is more important in this instance (as per the article discussion before).
My issue is the giant beef that there seems to be with Diane; it seems to me like a weird place to say 'hey, this is too far'. I don't know enough VAs to know if there are better (worse?) examples, but Diane being played by a white person isn't a stretch - a major part of her character is that she was brought up to be well, white. Her parents imbued her with zero background knowledge of her heritage or traditions and to be as homogeneous as possible. I'd argue an ethnic Vietnamese VA would be further away from her character background.
If they could find someone to be a better match for that, then sure, they'd be a better pick as VA. That's a pretty small target, though...
Why couldn't they just do a casting search for female Asian-American voice actors who grew up in the states?
Is that so hard?
This shit isn't complicated. Minority roles should be filled by minority actors. Representation matters, and can make a big difference in production.
You can tell its not because the original VA was Asian-American but she had to drop out.
I think I got the gist of it. Yes, Brie may not have been the best choice for the role. But I think the issue started in the writer's room, not the recording studio.
but what about
Well, *farts*
So because there are faults in the writing, we shouldn't criticize the faults in the casting or the performance?
You always forget the what about
you don't gotta jump through hoops to prove that actually, in this case, white washing is fine
I dunno, with Futurama, couldn't they hire like three or four more people permanently, and bring in people on the side for smaller roles, is that really a big of a thing?
Satans..... hints.....
I like where it ended and the individual episodes were pretty much all great, but as a whole I'm a little let down by it
It feels like they're getting a little bored with the show and the ratio of regular episodes to gimmick ones is climbing ever higher with each season to where it felt like a solid third-to-half of this season was concept episodes, like they wish they were making Legion or something
and this is a more minor issue but the throwaway "Hollywood!!!" jokes are starting to bug me, we're really getting into the characters in this scene, I don't need you to add in a slam on Jessica Chastain's career, that adds nothing for me and actually just detracts from the purpose of the scene
I want a hopeful ending for this show, but I'm afraid it'll end up with the mentally ill protagonist failing to ever overcome his issues.
BTW, on the topic of voice casting, is it considered not as bad if a minority is cast for a character of a different minority? I know the voice actress for Connie in Steven Universe isn't South Asian (according to Wikipedia she's of African American, Italian, Polish and Japanese descent) and I'm a bit concerned she might get hate for it.
The funny thing to me is that up until like two years ago even pretty much everybody on this forum agreed that it was fine. It really does seem like an example of us just all waking up and realizing that something that had been going on forever was kind of fucked. I think what Bojack‘s lead writer demonstrated Is that if you take responsibility and acknowledge the mistake people are generally willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. I imagine if confronted Rebecca Sugar would have no problem doing that. Also I could be completely wrong as I am white and don’t really have skin in this game but I would suspect that while it is still wrong the people affected might be less bothered that the actor is still a person of color. In the sense that one of the big reasons that white washing is a huge problem is that it’s an excuse not to put non-white faces on the screen.
The last season was one of my favourites and I have a lot of faith in them ending it right. Hopefully they knew it would be the end before making the season so they can finish it off properly.
Except for that whole unionising thing.
It's a touchy subject. People want to be represented, both on-screen and audibly. There's power in seeing yourself or someone who looks like you or talks like you in media.
That said, I can never give up Phil LaMarr as Samurai Jack. That dude has such a perfectly amazing voice.
Steam ID XBL: JohnnyChopsocky PSN:Stud_Beefpile WiiU:JohnnyChopsocky
Of course, I'm a white dude so I'm willing to be wrong and learn more about these matters.
And it's still fantastic
Episode 1
Here Todday, gone Toddmorrow.
I see what they're building to and I love it
also what type of creature is the whale's executive assistant? every time she made that BLURGHGHGH noise I lost my shit.