Well... it appears (if the scenes are actually connected and not just trailer connected) to be a dream and I kind of like idea of letting an android, especially data, age like a human in your memory
It's off-putting in the trailer, but depending on how they deliver that scene I actually really like the idea that in Picard's mind, he sees Data as having aged just like he did.
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That_GuyI don't wanna be that guyRegistered Userregular
If it's not a dream, they could explain it away with B4 looking slightly different somehow. Maybe B4 wasn't put together as well as data or something.
It would be hilarious as hell if they brought back the "Shut up Data" joke whenever he went off on a too detailed tangent, by having him go into his backstory involving B4 only for somebody to interrupt and say "Shut up Data".
"The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
The more I think about it, my hesitation with Discovery S3 and Picard is the implication that the Federation is either no more or not benevolent.
The core idea of Trek is that there was a fundamental change in people that made us better—not perfect, but able to avoid the awful parts of our world. I think that idea relies as much on institutions as individuals. There are always exceptional individuals, people of incredible moral courage, no matter how immoral their societies might be. Trek is usually about exceptional individuals working within exceptional institutions.
That isn’t to say you can’t make good story otherwise—Babylon 5 and the Expanse are fantastic shows that pretty much run on the idea of failed institutions and the people who have to deal with them—but Trek should stay unique.
You can make great story exploring the Federation’s or Starfleet’s flaws, or the ways they might lose their way, but ultimately they should come down on the side of the angels. Otherwise, I think you lose something good about Trek.
That was my biggest problem with Discovery S2. If you’re going to do Section 31 at all (and God know it’s getting stale), it should be an aberration, not business as usual. The heroes should either be actively fighting them (Bashir) or forced to work with them temporarily because the alternative is even worse (Ross). They should never accept Section 31 with barely a grumble like a local Sheriff teaming up with the FBI.
I’m worried they’ll continue the trend of showing that the future is no different than the present. And that probably wouldn’t make good Trek.
But I’m going to choose to be optimistic about it.
I think I've said this before, but I don't mind if the premise behind these new shows is that the Federation has failed or is in a decline, if the purpose is to then show that the Federation recovers and how they do so. Ideally in these cases the point is to sell you on the idea that the Federation is good and we should want it. Everyone loves Pike because he's sold as basically Federation Ideals: The Guy.
I understand that a lot of people miss TNG and wish we could just go back to exactly that, but TNG is already a thing that exists and honestly I'm not sure if I want to watch a show that is just trying to mimic what it did with nothing new to say, we can still watch it if we just want to watch the Federation going around being the Federation at its best.
But I'd also argue that most of us already love the Federation and a major point of interest for us is "how do you get to the Federation (where we want to go) from Not The Federation (where we are)" and there's probably a lot of worthwhile things to be said in that space.
+5
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HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
I think I've said this before, but I don't mind if the premise behind these new shows is that the Federation has failed or is in a decline, if the purpose is to then show that the Federation recovers and how they do so. Ideally in these cases the point is to sell you on the idea that the Federation is good and we should want it. Everyone loves Pike because he's sold as basically Federation Ideals: The Guy.
I think whether or not they'll manage to do the bolded, or have the ultimate message be "this is just how things are, and always will be, and we have to find some way to live with it", is what people are concerned about.
+2
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CambiataCommander ShepardThe likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered Userregular
I think bringing kids movies into this is a low blow. I doubt Stewart cared about those characters.
Nemesis is another animal entirely, of course, so you have a point on that one I guess. I still trust Stewart, though.
because kids movies can't be good?
Definitely not true, and not something I've ever advocated for. Some of my favorite films are aimed at kids, or at least are aimed at families.
However, whether you or I like it or not, kids films are often used as mindless cash grabs under the premise that kids are less discerning than adults. Stewart wanting to be in a film because a grand daughter or whoever wanted to see him in it is fine, even if the film itself is shit. I would however expect a greater level of care from him where a character like Picard, who he cares about, is involved.
"If you divide the whole world into just enemies and friends, you'll end up destroying everything" --Nausicaa of the Valley of Wind
Data would probably be less uncomfortable looking if they went with the type of contacts Spiner had for the TV run where his pupils weren't tiny dots that feel like they're burrowing lasers into your soul, but still registered more as "human." I think we focus a lot, too much even, on Spiner's face going all "became an old man" but honestly it's just those eyes that feel off the most
I feel like that's a shift they did for the movies and not a particularly great one.
The Federation is the ultimate benevolent utopia. Shame all its admirals keep building death rays and making deals with space monsters.
Um The Culture is standing right there
The Culture does admit that Special Circumstances kinda sucks, but they still keep them around. And boy, I’d much rather go to war with the Federation than the Culture.
Federation wants peace and forgiveness. The Culture wants to win and make examples of the enemy as a warning to others.
Discovery finale spoiler:
In the same situation, the Culture would not have threatened to blow up the planet. They’d have blown up the Klingon’s sun and kept doing so until they surrendered or were wiped out. After they’d won, they’d have sent assassins to messily murder any Klingon High Command who were left.
The message the Culture likes to send to enemies is, “Don’t fuck with the Culture.”
Going through TNG, there do seem to be a few... blind spots, very very glaring blind spots, the Federation seems to have by the 24th century.
The repeating trend of "How do we declare Data and those like him property" seems to be a major one
There’s a scene in the Picard trailer that looks like they finally figured out how to mass produce him.
Also, the occasional witch hunt for officers with Romulan ancestry.
The best thing DS9 ever did was look at TNG and go "We gotta remind everyone Utopia is not a place you reach, it is a work you perform, a lifestyle that must be consciously maintained if it is to avoid descending into gilded leaf oppression."
Going through TNG, there do seem to be a few... blind spots, very very glaring blind spots, the Federation seems to have by the 24th century.
The repeating trend of "How do we declare Data and those like him property" seems to be a major one
There’s a scene in the Picard trailer that looks like they finally figured out how to mass produce him.
Also, the occasional witch hunt for officers with Romulan ancestry.
I'd have figured for sure the future of warfare wouldn't be figuring out how to waste resources building more Datas so much as pressing a button and boom you have a fleet of Robert Picardos ready to wash over your enemies in a sarcastic tide.
There's no way the Federation didn't confiscate that mobile emitter to learn how to make more.
Going through TNG, there do seem to be a few... blind spots, very very glaring blind spots, the Federation seems to have by the 24th century.
The repeating trend of "How do we declare Data and those like him property" seems to be a major one
There’s a scene in the Picard trailer that looks like they finally figured out how to mass produce him.
Also, the occasional witch hunt for officers with Romulan ancestry.
I'd have figured for sure the future of warfare wouldn't be figuring out how to waste resources building more Datas so much as pressing a button and boom you have a fleet of Robert Picardos ready to wash over your enemies in a sarcastic tide.
There's no way the Federation didn't confiscate that mobile emitter to learn how to make more.
The time department guys probably would have a fit over that.
"WE ARE NOT REVERSE ENGINEERING FUTURE TECH. IT'S BAD ENOUGH IT'S HERE TO BEGIN WITH."
That isn’t to say you can’t make good story otherwise—Babylon 5 and the Expanse are fantastic shows that pretty much run on the idea of failed institutions and the people who have to deal with them—but Trek should stay unique.
I think that a Babylon 5 like series would have made an amazing story for the founding of The Federation.
That is an episode that felt desperately like where someone on staff wanted to make a point about how professional women should learn to not be cold shrews and just goddamn nope.
That isn’t to say you can’t make good story otherwise—Babylon 5 and the Expanse are fantastic shows that pretty much run on the idea of failed institutions and the people who have to deal with them—but Trek should stay unique.
I think that a Babylon 5 like series would have made an amazing story for the founding of The Federation.
I mean, they kind of did by the end of the series.
The Federation is the ultimate benevolent utopia. Shame all its admirals keep building death rays and making deals with space monsters.
Um The Culture is standing right there
The Culture does admit that Special Circumstances kinda sucks, but they still keep them around. And boy, I’d much rather go to war with the Federation than the Culture.
Federation wants peace and forgiveness. The Culture wants to win and make examples of the enemy as a warning to others.
Discovery finale spoiler:
In the same situation, the Culture would not have threatened to blow up the planet. They’d have blown up the Klingon’s sun and kept doing so until they surrendered or were wiped out. After they’d won, they’d have sent assassins to messily murder any Klingon High Command who were left.
The message the Culture likes to send to enemies is, “Don’t fuck with the Culture.”
To be fair to the Culture, they'd have sent escape shuttles so that any civilians could get off the planet first, and they be really nice to any Klingons who were left afterwards.
The Federation is the ultimate benevolent utopia. Shame all its admirals keep building death rays and making deals with space monsters.
Um The Culture is standing right there
The Culture does admit that Special Circumstances kinda sucks, but they still keep them around. And boy, I’d much rather go to war with the Federation than the Culture.
Federation wants peace and forgiveness. The Culture wants to win and make examples of the enemy as a warning to others.
Discovery finale spoiler:
In the same situation, the Culture would not have threatened to blow up the planet. They’d have blown up the Klingon’s sun and kept doing so until they surrendered or were wiped out. After they’d won, they’d have sent assassins to messily murder any Klingon High Command who were left.
The message the Culture likes to send to enemies is, “Don’t fuck with the Culture.”
To be fair to the Culture, they'd have sent escape shuttles so that any civilians could get off the planet first, and they be really nice to any Klingons who were left afterwards.
Beginning with the standard “Sorry we blew up your homeworld and killed your family” condolence card?
I hear Hallmark is making a killing in the genocide apology sector. The 2019 models sing.
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JacobkoshGamble a stamp.I can show you how to be a real man!Moderatormod
Going through TNG, there do seem to be a few... blind spots, very very glaring blind spots, the Federation seems to have by the 24th century.
The repeating trend of "How do we declare Data and those like him property" seems to be a major one
There’s a scene in the Picard trailer that looks like they finally figured out how to mass produce him.
Also, the occasional witch hunt for officers with Romulan ancestry.
The best thing DS9 ever did was look at TNG and go "We gotta remind everyone Utopia is not a place you reach, it is a work you perform, a lifestyle that must be consciously maintained if it is to avoid descending into gilded leaf oppression."
I mean that was literally the point of a bunch of TNG episodes too
I find the idea that DS9 invented this kind of exhausting tbh
The Federation is the ultimate benevolent utopia. Shame all its admirals keep building death rays and making deals with space monsters.
Um The Culture is standing right there
The Culture does admit that Special Circumstances kinda sucks, but they still keep them around. And boy, I’d much rather go to war with the Federation than the Culture.
Federation wants peace and forgiveness. The Culture wants to win and make examples of the enemy as a warning to others.
Discovery finale spoiler:
In the same situation, the Culture would not have threatened to blow up the planet. They’d have blown up the Klingon’s sun and kept doing so until they surrendered or were wiped out. After they’d won, they’d have sent assassins to messily murder any Klingon High Command who were left.
The message the Culture likes to send to enemies is, “Don’t fuck with the Culture.”
To be fair to the Culture, they'd have sent escape shuttles so that any civilians could get off the planet first, and they be really nice to any Klingons who were left afterwards.
Beginning with the standard “Sorry we blew up your homeworld and killed your family” condolence card?
I hear Hallmark is making a killing in the genocide apology sector. The 2019 models sing.
The Special Circumstance ship "They Started It But We Finished It" will do a semi-annual apology flyby.
Going through TNG, there do seem to be a few... blind spots, very very glaring blind spots, the Federation seems to have by the 24th century.
The repeating trend of "How do we declare Data and those like him property" seems to be a major one
There’s a scene in the Picard trailer that looks like they finally figured out how to mass produce him.
Also, the occasional witch hunt for officers with Romulan ancestry.
The best thing DS9 ever did was look at TNG and go "We gotta remind everyone Utopia is not a place you reach, it is a work you perform, a lifestyle that must be consciously maintained if it is to avoid descending into gilded leaf oppression."
I mean that was literally the point of a bunch of TNG episodes too
I find the idea that DS9 invented this kind of exhausting tbh
A lot of TNG gets viewed through Picard's speeches. They weren't always 100 percent accurate even in the episodes where he was giving them.
the second episode with Leah Brahms, the actual Leah Brahms.
that is just
no
nope
Noooooooooooooooope.
I very much wanted the last lines of that episode to be:
WORF [OC]: Worf to La Forge. There is an incoming message on subspace for Doctor Brahms.
LAFORGE: Acknowledged, Worf. La Forge out. ... Your husband?
BRAHMS: Wife, actually.
[BRAHMS rises and leaves. GUINAN 'casually' wanders past LAFORGE's table.]
GUINAN: Told you.
Going through TNG, there do seem to be a few... blind spots, very very glaring blind spots, the Federation seems to have by the 24th century.
The repeating trend of "How do we declare Data and those like him property" seems to be a major one
There’s a scene in the Picard trailer that looks like they finally figured out how to mass produce him.
Also, the occasional witch hunt for officers with Romulan ancestry.
The best thing DS9 ever did was look at TNG and go "We gotta remind everyone Utopia is not a place you reach, it is a work you perform, a lifestyle that must be consciously maintained if it is to avoid descending into gilded leaf oppression."
I mean that was literally the point of a bunch of TNG episodes too
I find the idea that DS9 invented this kind of exhausting tbh
Yeah its exhausting to act like TNG had the generation as like a perfect group of nice people, when we had several episodes of admirals and captains who were ok with war crimes and breaking treaties.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
The Federation is the ultimate benevolent utopia. Shame all its admirals keep building death rays and making deals with space monsters.
Um The Culture is standing right there
I don't really feel like the culture and the federation are fungible for each other
The Culture is essentially an AI society that has collectively made the moral choice to benevolently look after the little human pets that infest the ships. There's something a bit existentially disquieting about it, and it's okay to feel disquieted by it, because Banks absolutely reveled in that tension and took opportunities to kind of rub your the reader's face in it.
The Federation is about the idea that humans can go out into space and solve our own problems while remaining fundamentally human and not being replaced or put in a little existential cul-de-sac by our own sophisticated tools. Star Trek says that social and technological change can (and maybe should) give people more power over their lives and fates rather than less.
Posts
Yeah, wondering why they didn't. Could it be a money thing?
Still we get Spiner to play him again.
The more I think about it, my hesitation with Discovery S3 and Picard is the implication that the Federation is either no more or not benevolent.
The core idea of Trek is that there was a fundamental change in people that made us better—not perfect, but able to avoid the awful parts of our world. I think that idea relies as much on institutions as individuals. There are always exceptional individuals, people of incredible moral courage, no matter how immoral their societies might be. Trek is usually about exceptional individuals working within exceptional institutions.
That isn’t to say you can’t make good story otherwise—Babylon 5 and the Expanse are fantastic shows that pretty much run on the idea of failed institutions and the people who have to deal with them—but Trek should stay unique.
You can make great story exploring the Federation’s or Starfleet’s flaws, or the ways they might lose their way, but ultimately they should come down on the side of the angels. Otherwise, I think you lose something good about Trek.
That was my biggest problem with Discovery S2. If you’re going to do Section 31 at all (and God know it’s getting stale), it should be an aberration, not business as usual. The heroes should either be actively fighting them (Bashir) or forced to work with them temporarily because the alternative is even worse (Ross). They should never accept Section 31 with barely a grumble like a local Sheriff teaming up with the FBI.
I’m worried they’ll continue the trend of showing that the future is no different than the present. And that probably wouldn’t make good Trek.
But I’m going to choose to be optimistic about it.
I understand that a lot of people miss TNG and wish we could just go back to exactly that, but TNG is already a thing that exists and honestly I'm not sure if I want to watch a show that is just trying to mimic what it did with nothing new to say, we can still watch it if we just want to watch the Federation going around being the Federation at its best.
But I'd also argue that most of us already love the Federation and a major point of interest for us is "how do you get to the Federation (where we want to go) from Not The Federation (where we are)" and there's probably a lot of worthwhile things to be said in that space.
because kids movies can't be good?
This is just the last few months. I love patrick stewart but it was his choice to make garbage kids movies.
I think whether or not they'll manage to do the bolded, or have the ultimate message be "this is just how things are, and always will be, and we have to find some way to live with it", is what people are concerned about.
Definitely not true, and not something I've ever advocated for. Some of my favorite films are aimed at kids, or at least are aimed at families.
However, whether you or I like it or not, kids films are often used as mindless cash grabs under the premise that kids are less discerning than adults. Stewart wanting to be in a film because a grand daughter or whoever wanted to see him in it is fine, even if the film itself is shit. I would however expect a greater level of care from him where a character like Picard, who he cares about, is involved.
It's the hack writer's guide to making star trek.
I feel like that's a shift they did for the movies and not a particularly great one.
vs
Um The Culture is standing right there
The Culture does admit that Special Circumstances kinda sucks, but they still keep them around. And boy, I’d much rather go to war with the Federation than the Culture.
Federation wants peace and forgiveness. The Culture wants to win and make examples of the enemy as a warning to others.
Discovery finale spoiler:
The message the Culture likes to send to enemies is, “Don’t fuck with the Culture.”
The repeating trend of "How do we declare Data and those like him property" seems to be a major one
There’s a scene in the Picard trailer that looks like they finally figured out how to mass produce him.
Also, the occasional witch hunt for officers with Romulan ancestry.
The best thing DS9 ever did was look at TNG and go "We gotta remind everyone Utopia is not a place you reach, it is a work you perform, a lifestyle that must be consciously maintained if it is to avoid descending into gilded leaf oppression."
I'd have figured for sure the future of warfare wouldn't be figuring out how to waste resources building more Datas so much as pressing a button and boom you have a fleet of Robert Picardos ready to wash over your enemies in a sarcastic tide.
There's no way the Federation didn't confiscate that mobile emitter to learn how to make more.
The time department guys probably would have a fit over that.
"WE ARE NOT REVERSE ENGINEERING FUTURE TECH. IT'S BAD ENOUGH IT'S HERE TO BEGIN WITH."
I think that a Babylon 5 like series would have made an amazing story for the founding of The Federation.
"It's nothing personal, Doctor, but I have certain expectations to meet as a Starfleet admiral."
the second episode with Leah Brahms, the actual Leah Brahms.
that is just
no
nope
Noooooooooooooooope.
I mean, they kind of did by the end of the series.
Its ok her and Geordi get married and have kids.
And yet Barclay was the weird one with the holodeck fetish...
pleasepaypreacher.net
The spider thing was fixed!
pleasepaypreacher.net
I hear Hallmark is making a killing in the genocide apology sector. The 2019 models sing.
I mean that was literally the point of a bunch of TNG episodes too
I find the idea that DS9 invented this kind of exhausting tbh
honestly, being turned in to a spider was a bit of an improvement
A lot of TNG gets viewed through Picard's speeches. They weren't always 100 percent accurate even in the episodes where he was giving them.
I very much wanted the last lines of that episode to be:
WORF [OC]: Worf to La Forge. There is an incoming message on subspace for Doctor Brahms.
LAFORGE: Acknowledged, Worf. La Forge out. ... Your husband?
BRAHMS: Wife, actually.
[BRAHMS rises and leaves. GUINAN 'casually' wanders past LAFORGE's table.]
GUINAN: Told you.
Yeah its exhausting to act like TNG had the generation as like a perfect group of nice people, when we had several episodes of admirals and captains who were ok with war crimes and breaking treaties.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I don't really feel like the culture and the federation are fungible for each other
The Culture is essentially an AI society that has collectively made the moral choice to benevolently look after the little human pets that infest the ships. There's something a bit existentially disquieting about it, and it's okay to feel disquieted by it, because Banks absolutely reveled in that tension and took opportunities to kind of rub your the reader's face in it.
The Federation is about the idea that humans can go out into space and solve our own problems while remaining fundamentally human and not being replaced or put in a little existential cul-de-sac by our own sophisticated tools. Star Trek says that social and technological change can (and maybe should) give people more power over their lives and fates rather than less.