But think of all the original stories of those early 2000s action movies that we got!
They had such great stories that I can think of many of them off the top of my head and not only manage like...the first Bourne movie was then right? And like...the first F&F movie? Uh, what other action movies were there? Also what were the compelling stories that have been crowded out?
Fate of Atlantis was right there begging to be made into a film. Charlatans.
Reminder: Frank Darabont wrote an Indy 4 script about Atlantis, but it was rejected because Lucas insisted that they had to do this specific alien story.
EDIT: Upon further research, that is not actually true. Darabont did write a Crystal Skull script that was supposedly very good which Lucas rejected, but it was not Atlantis based. Never mind!
Some day I want someone to write a book about Lucas. The Rise and Fall of Creative...Somethingism.
I think they've improved, but generally there's still no comparison between the vast majority of Marvel action scenes and John Wick or Fury Road. However, action in Marvel movies is elevated by the characters and the audience's engagement with them.
I mean
There's not a lot that compares to Fury Road anywhere.
George Miller has been one of the best action directors in the industry for 40 years now. Masters always make everyone else look bad.
In the intervening 40ish years between Mad Max movies though, all he directed and wrote was light, family-friendly fare.
The same guy who gave us ripping the face off someone with a towhook also gave us Babe. And Happy Feet.
The Babe films actually have some tight action sequences.
If I could press a button to get rid of the MCU and put all that money into making original movies with new ideas I would in a heartbeat. With the exception of Black Panther probably
Thank god that button doesnt exist.
MCU has been a fantastically bright point in the lives of millions of people. Created traditions, an entire generation has grown up with excellent hero stories and it has been awesome.
So sorry you dont like them, but a lot of people really do. And the entire MCU is an original idea. Literally no one else has been able to pull that off.
And well made original ideas can still make tons of money.
See: John Wick.
If I could press a button to get rid of the MCU and put all that money into making original movies with new ideas I would in a heartbeat. With the exception of Black Panther probably
Thank god that button doesnt exist.
MCU has been a fantastically bright point in the lives of millions of people. Created traditions, an entire generation has grown up with excellent hero stories and it has been awesome.
So sorry you dont like them, but a lot of people really do. And the entire MCU is an original idea. Literally no one else has been able to pull that off.
And well made original ideas can still make tons of money.
See: John Wick.
What was the original idea in John Wick?
The original ideas in John Wick are found in the action choreography, directing, and lighting. Film is more than just plot and dialogue.
I mean, people didn't love Hong Kong-era John Woo for their stories and character work.
If I could press a button to get rid of the MCU and put all that money into making original movies with new ideas I would in a heartbeat. With the exception of Black Panther probably
Thank god that button doesnt exist.
MCU has been a fantastically bright point in the lives of millions of people. Created traditions, an entire generation has grown up with excellent hero stories and it has been awesome.
So sorry you dont like them, but a lot of people really do. And the entire MCU is an original idea. Literally no one else has been able to pull that off.
And well made original ideas can still make tons of money.
See: John Wick.
What was the original idea in John Wick?
The original ideas in John Wick are found in the action choreography, directing, and lighting. Film is more than just plot and dialogue.
I mean, people didn't love Hong Kong-era John Woo for their stories and character work.
You say its an original idea then cite a guy whos made a career out of it
But think of all the original stories of those early 2000s action movies that we got!
They had such great stories that I can think of many of them off the top of my head and not only manage like...the first Bourne movie was then right? And like...the first F&F movie? Uh, what other action movies were there? Also what were the compelling stories that have been crowded out?
*coughs and points to Lord of the Rings*
Oh shit we haven't had any fantasy action movies since the MCU started? I mean ignoring the MCU movies that are that, haven't we had a bunch of mediocre Hobbit movies?
The idea is that the MCU has somehow led to those movies not being made, which it doesn't seem like there is evidence for.
Also it's kind of weird when we're discussing how the MCU is full of tired unoriginal storytelling that has crowded out the potential for new original stories to bring up the Lord of the Rings, like that is the bellweather for original stories and themes never done before!
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
I generally consider the Marvel action scenes to be pretty darn good, but that might be because so many other movies have horrible action sequences.
At their best, like in the Ant-Man movies, they are fun and inventive. At their worst, they are at least easy to follow.
Their main drawback is that, since they are often done by a specialized second unit filling in for the films' directors, they sacrifice inventiveness for consistency.
The worst would be the final fight in Black Panther, which had two guys in very similar black suits that covered their faces fighting in a dark cave. It was not easy to follow.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
If I could press a button to get rid of the MCU and put all that money into making original movies with new ideas I would in a heartbeat. With the exception of Black Panther probably
Thank god that button doesnt exist.
MCU has been a fantastically bright point in the lives of millions of people. Created traditions, an entire generation has grown up with excellent hero stories and it has been awesome.
So sorry you dont like them, but a lot of people really do. And the entire MCU is an original idea. Literally no one else has been able to pull that off.
And well made original ideas can still make tons of money.
See: John Wick.
What was the original idea in John Wick?
The original ideas in John Wick are found in the action choreography, directing, and lighting. Film is more than just plot and dialogue.
I mean, people didn't love Hong Kong-era John Woo for their stories and character work.
You say its an original idea then cite a guy whos made a career out of it
Turns out that creative work is pretty much always built on the shoulders of their predecessors. Can you make the argument that John Wick is just modernized John Woo? Sure can. I'd say the Korean film industry has more influence on John Wick than Woo's work, but it is definitely a film that exists in an established genre.
Whether the film innovated on its influences or just adapted them in a Hollywood template is an interesting discussion. But that won't change that the Wick movies are well-made action films that feel fresh, even to someone like me who has seen a lot of its influences.
I understand why people are reflexively nervous about the level of success and power Disney currently has. Any time a single entity grows into a juggernaut, we are trained to be fearful because, you know, what if they decide to use their powers for evil?
The truth is, whether you like it or not, Disney is the definition of American culture. By hook or by crook, they are America now. They control the zeitgeist and have done so not by coercion, or violence, but by providing joy.
This is where I find myself torn.
I like Disney movies, they bring me joy, so I pay for them
I like Star Wars movies, they bring me joy, so I pay for them
I like Marvel movies, they bring me joy, so I pay for them
Feeling like I have a societal obligation to not enjoy these things because the entity that creates them has become too powerful is an extremely difficult sell! Feeling like I have to convince myself that the things that I enjoy are somehow wrong (because they're mass-marketed or because they're formulaic or because they fund a massive conglomerate) feels like a personal attack on my character.
Just because I like Marvel movies doesn't mean I'm somehow flawed or unable to objectively criticize a movie all of a sudden. Oppressive, obscure, arthouse-type independent movies don't bring me joy. I can appreciate the importance of artful cinema without necessarily having to consume it. I do not appreciate being made to feel that because I didn't enjoy some critically acclaimed movies that I'm somehow unqualified to disagree with an acclaimed filmmaker. My joy is not a fault. Nor is it artificial. A massive conglomerate having figured out how to bring the maximum amount of entertainment to a maximum amount of people is not a bad thing in and of itself, even if it does mean that such a conglomerate gets to massively profit from having figured out that aspect of human psychology.
This isn't some shitty microtransaction pay-to-win video game-style scam they're pulling off, it's just good business! A company having its finger on the pulse of the global culture it seeks to cater to and using that ability to profit isn't an evil in and of itself, it's simply cleverness.
Does the possibility exist that Disney may choose to, one day, abuse the massive power it has accumulated for itself. Yeah, we can't discount that, but there's a reason anti-trust laws don't outright outlaw monopolies, they only outlaw abuse of dominant power. Being successful, by itself, shouldn't be punished. Using success to artificially manipulate the market in your favor though, should. Now, if there's evidence that Disney is abusing its power to keep new entrants from competing, then fine, let's hear it and have a case brought before the FTC, but until then, I'm going to choose not to worry about it.
Except that MTX-filled mobile games are also good business.
You don't need to write apologism for Disney. The quality of the work they produce is irrelevant to the problem of their leveraging their controlling an inordinate amount of popular culture to force theater operators to show X number of screenings for X number of weeks in X percentage of their theaters for {list of releases} if they want to have any of the Marvel or the Star Wars films.
And the fact that you're going "well until somebody takes Disney to court about it" as though Disney isn't notoriously litigious over all of their things, creating a chilling effect on competition with essentially infinitely deep pockets and armies of lawyers, as though Disney is not literally the reason why US copyright law is so fucked up right now, despite building itself up on the backs of reinterpretations of other people's works...
Well let's just say I'm of the opinion that you're downplaying all of this rather than us exaggerating.
Some of the most popular marvel movies have absolutely garbage action sequences.
They're successful because they star characters who were selected over fifty years of darwininian comic book industry writing (Iron Man, Cap etc are all good character, the ones from that time that weren't are gone and forgotten), they are very well cast, they were very well marketed, the initial movies were good enough to develop a powerful following (Iron Man being genuinely pretty great essentially allowed the MCU to exist) and they are designed to be very accessible and enjoyable by anyone.
Wut.
The ship scene in Winter Soldier? The Highway Scene in Winter Soldier? The Stairway scene in Civil War, the city chase of Dr Strange, the "one take" sequence of the whole team kicking ass in Avengers, War Machine and Iron Man duking it out with dozens of kill bots in IM2 (ending with a one off laser, which became a consistent marker of how far Tony had pushed the tech gains of the suits through the next decade of movies) the fight between Cap, WS and IM in Civil War, Wakanda battle in Infinity War.....all of these are amazingly well shot and inventive action sequences. These things pushed stunt guys to do some crazy insane stuff that hadnt been seen before. And did it with minimal use of shaky cam and nonsense edits.
Its cool if you dont like the super hero movies of the MCU, but stop wishing to blank it out of existence (irony!) or trying to say that there isnt a shit ton of amazing film work in them.
*OH SNAP! (see what i did there) i almost forgot:
Elevator Scene in Winter Soldier.
Hallway scene in Daredevil
Prison Scene in Daredevil
But think of all the original stories of those early 2000s action movies that we got!
They had such great stories that I can think of many of them off the top of my head and not only manage like...the first Bourne movie was then right? And like...the first F&F movie? Uh, what other action movies were there? Also what were the compelling stories that have been crowded out?
*coughs and points to Lord of the Rings*
Oh shit we haven't had any fantasy action movies since the MCU started? I mean ignoring the MCU movies that are that, haven't we had a bunch of mediocre Hobbit movies?
The idea is that the MCU has somehow led to those movies not being made, which it doesn't seem like there is evidence for.
Also it's kind of weird when we're discussing how the MCU is full of tired unoriginal storytelling that has crowded out the potential for new original stories to bring up the Lord of the Rings, like that is the bellweather for original stories and themes never done before!
I was just pointing out a good early 2000‘s action series that you were missing, not really saying anything about the MCU (LotR is totes better than anything in the MCU tho)
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
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TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
With 100% honesty I'd take Charlie's Angels '00 over Winter Soldier. Everyone's having fun, everyone's likable, good action and scene setups, and it doesn't drop the ending.
There's a lot of junk in the '00s action blockbusters but the first movie is not one of them.
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
With 100% honesty I'd take Charlie's Angels '00 over Winter Soldier. Everyone's having fun, everyone's likable, good action and scene setups, and it doesn't drop the ending.
There's a lot of junk in the '00s action blockbusters but the first movie is not one of them.
That movie is like a distillation of everything possible you could do wrong in a film.
Everyone on an Adam Sandler film is having fun but that really doesn't make the movies worth watching because they got a paid vacation.
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
The vast, vast majority of films do not actually need to be seen in the theater to "get the full experience". If I have a 60-inch HD television at home, and I'm watching at the best possible viewing angle in a dark room and a surround-sound speaker system, that's likely a better overall experience of a given film than I would get in a theater. Especially for something like small character films, where I'm not being interrupted by that guy on his phone or the random person having a coughing fit.
Also, there are no new ideas under the sun. The idea that dumping more money into "original films" (whatever that means) would create more "original films" is a recursive tautology. A film is a film. Arguing that big-budget movies are not original enough is absurd on its face, because the vast majority of small-budget and independent films are no less derivative. Difference from the norm does not make something original.
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Also: The Matrix: now that's a friggen good action blockbuster
The Matrix: stick it to the man
Iron Man: root for the man
The Matrix: tightly constructed and carefully planned in every way
Iron Man: eh there's a writer's strike so let's just make the movie up as we go along
The Matrix: mind blowing imagery that sticks in your mind decades later
Iron Man: that line about the box of scraps was pretty funny
I got the 4K version of The Shining 'cause I want to see Doctor Sleep and my fiancee has never read the novel or watched the movie, somehow.
I still don't like The Shining.
I know it's supposed to be a masterpiece of horror cinema or whatever but I just don't like it. Nicholson is the only one of the actors who ever seems to actually be his character, rather than obviously the actor reading lines, and even with him it's pretty much only during scenes with no dialog where his talent for expression does the work. The much-lauded muscial score just annoys me because it's so much louder than everything else and the bits that are supposed to make a scene tense or whatever just seem like the auditory equivalent of jump scares to me. "OOOO! RATTLEY MUSIC! AREN'T YOU SCARED?!!?!" Maybe I'm jaded by too many horror movies but nothing about it is scary. The blood scene still looks good but every other overtly 'horror' shot just looks like something out of a well-done haunted house attraction. And, having read the novel long before seeing the film, a lot of Kubrik's changes to the characters still bother me.
Also: The Matrix: now that's a friggen good action blockbuster
The Matrix: stick it to the man
Iron Man: root for the man
The Matrix: tightly constructed and carefully planned in every way
Iron Man: eh there's a writer's strike so let's just make the movie up as we go along
The Matrix: mind blowing imagery that sticks in your mind decades later
Iron Man: that line about the box of scraps was pretty funny
The Matrix also shows the strength of the Marvel films. Since all the characters except Agent Smith were bland cyphers surrounded by an otherwise excellent film, the sequels did not have much to build on other than the film's internal mythos and flopped.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
The problem with movies like The Shining (see also, anything by Alfred Hitchcock) is that they are so definitive that everything after them has basically cribbed from them. So going back to watch them to see what the big deal is about is a bit like trying to go back in time and live life as a native - you're never going to get the true experience because you've seen what comes afterwards.
Also in your case it sounds like you got a bit of that "read the books first" thing going on. Which is a bit of a similar situation.
You could also have the disease I have which makes it almost impossible for me to get scared by a horror film because my brain refuses to take it seriously.
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
All movies are made with a formula
There are some genuinely experimental films out there, but we aren't exactly comparing the MCU to the Cremaster Cycle here.
Marvel's direction is nothing special that I've ever seen. It's mostly just very very generic. They hired directors that were cheap and that they could control and few of them really did anything interesting during their tenures with the MCU.
Their casting is top notch but let's not pretend like they were looking for hot indie talent. They were looking for cheap. They wanted nice cheap actors and within that framework whoever they had doing that job found a lot of under-valued talent. The casting director for the MCU absolutely deserves like an oscar or something.
It’s come up before but the MCU has one casting director - Sarah Finn. She’s done it since Iron Man and casting RDJ.
/googles Sarah Finn
Jesus christ. Someone pay that women a billion dollars then, she's the fucking Mozart of casting directors.
Her and Allison Jones (who does the casting for the Mike Schur stuff like "The Good Place").
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
All movies are made with a formula
I guess the similarities between Sorry to Bother You and Thor 2 are pretty striking when you think about it.
Also: The Matrix: now that's a friggen good action blockbuster
The Matrix: stick it to the man
Iron Man: root for the man
The Matrix: tightly constructed and carefully planned in every way
Iron Man: eh there's a writer's strike so let's just make the movie up as we go along
The Matrix: mind blowing imagery that sticks in your mind decades later
Iron Man: that line about the box of scraps was pretty funny
The Matrix: We are going to tell a big story with crazy action and sci fi!
Fails the very next movie and becomes a jumbled mess
Iron Man: We are going to tell a big story with crazy action and sci fi!
Kicks off a 10 year run of 22 movies culminating in the highest grossing movie of all time
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
All movies are made with a formula
I guess the similarities between Sorry to Bother You and Thor 2 are pretty striking when you think about it.
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
All movies are made with a formula
I guess the similarities between Sorry to Bother You and Thor 2 are pretty striking when you think about it.
Still required a formula to make though.
This is really, profoundly, silly
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
All movies are made with a formula
I guess the similarities between Sorry to Bother You and Thor 2 are pretty striking when you think about it.
Any move you heard of uses the same dramatic tension build/release, 3 act structure, and basic rules of storytelling. Everything is formulaic unless you start getting into the really weird avant-garde shit like Lars Von Trier movies, or old David Lynch like Eraserhead.
It's why something like TVTropes is so broadly applicable to everything, to my eternal chagrin.
It's not bad. It's not anything. It just is what it is. I've seen this idea floated that if something conforms to a well worn path that it also somehow detracts from its quality, and I disagree entirely: Much like the wrist, it's all in the execution.
jungleroomx on
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BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
All movies are made with a formula
I guess the similarities between Sorry to Bother You and Thor 2 are pretty striking when you think about it.
Any move you heard of uses the same dramatic tension build/release, 3 act structure, and basic rules of storytelling. Everything is formulaic unless you start getting into the really weird avant-garde shit like Lars Von Trier movies, or old David Lynch like Eraserhead.
It's why something like TVTropes is so broadly applicable to everything, to my eternal chagrin.
It's not bad. It's not anything. It just is what it is. I've seen this idea floated that if something conforms to a well worn path that it also somehow detracts from its quality, and I disagree entirely: Much like the wrist, it's all in the execution.
I think I'm lost then, because at one point this was about how Marvel innovated and took risks.
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
All movies are made with a formula
I guess the similarities between Sorry to Bother You and Thor 2 are pretty striking when you think about it.
Any move you heard of uses the same dramatic tension build/release, 3 act structure, and basic rules of storytelling. Everything is formulaic unless you start getting into the really weird avant-garde shit like Lars Von Trier movies, or old David Lynch like Eraserhead.
It's why something like TVTropes is so broadly applicable to everything, to my eternal chagrin.
It's not bad. It's not anything. It just is what it is. I've seen this idea floated that if something conforms to a well worn path that it also somehow detracts from its quality, and I disagree entirely: Much like the wrist, it's all in the execution.
The classical Hollywood formula is so enduring because it can be used to tell a lot of very different stories and encompass vast innovation, but you can still time the act breaks on most of them down to the minute. If you want to look for American entertainment that breaks out of that mold, an experimental episode of a prestige TV series is a better bet than indie film.
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
All movies are made with a formula
I guess the similarities between Sorry to Bother You and Thor 2 are pretty striking when you think about it.
Still required a formula to make though.
This is really, profoundly, silly
Oh i'm very sorry. I shall differ to your evidently superior understanding of movie making.
Explain how Sorry to Bother You wasnt created using some type of template for story telling. Or lighting. Or Sound. Or editing. Or Acting. Or Advertising.
Often called "a formula"
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jungleroomxIt's never too many graves, it's always not enough shovelsRegistered Userregular
I want to bring up something mentioned earlier
Fury Road is a completely formulaic hero's journey with Furiosa as the hero. All the beats are there, all the things happen when they're supposed to, it's a formula of film that's been done a million times but it's done so fucking well that it's engrossing, feels fresh, and has resonated with people for years. Rightfully so.
But it is not some completely original, new way to tell a story.
He said "some of", so idk why citing the good ones is the response.
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
All movies are made with a formula
I guess the similarities between Sorry to Bother You and Thor 2 are pretty striking when you think about it.
Still required a formula to make though.
This is really, profoundly, silly
Oh i'm very sorry. I shall differ to your evidently superior understanding of movie making.
Explain how Sorry to Bother You wasnt created using some type of template for story telling. Or lighting. Or Sound. Or editing. Or Acting. Or Advertising.
Often called "a formula"
Youve gone from saying that anyone claiming marvel movies are cookie cutter is wrong to arguing every movie is.
Disney isnt coy about having a template from which every mcu movie is made. Its why they hire the directors they do. Its why every movie score sounds the same. They know the levers to pull.
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Some day I want someone to write a book about Lucas. The Rise and Fall of Creative...Somethingism.
The Babe films actually have some tight action sequences.
What was the original idea in John Wick?
The original ideas in John Wick are found in the action choreography, directing, and lighting. Film is more than just plot and dialogue.
I mean, people didn't love Hong Kong-era John Woo for their stories and character work.
You say its an original idea then cite a guy whos made a career out of it
Oh shit we haven't had any fantasy action movies since the MCU started? I mean ignoring the MCU movies that are that, haven't we had a bunch of mediocre Hobbit movies?
The idea is that the MCU has somehow led to those movies not being made, which it doesn't seem like there is evidence for.
Also it's kind of weird when we're discussing how the MCU is full of tired unoriginal storytelling that has crowded out the potential for new original stories to bring up the Lord of the Rings, like that is the bellweather for original stories and themes never done before!
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
The worst would be the final fight in Black Panther, which had two guys in very similar black suits that covered their faces fighting in a dark cave. It was not easy to follow.
Turns out that creative work is pretty much always built on the shoulders of their predecessors. Can you make the argument that John Wick is just modernized John Woo? Sure can. I'd say the Korean film industry has more influence on John Wick than Woo's work, but it is definitely a film that exists in an established genre.
Whether the film innovated on its influences or just adapted them in a Hollywood template is an interesting discussion. But that won't change that the Wick movies are well-made action films that feel fresh, even to someone like me who has seen a lot of its influences.
Except that MTX-filled mobile games are also good business.
You don't need to write apologism for Disney. The quality of the work they produce is irrelevant to the problem of their leveraging their controlling an inordinate amount of popular culture to force theater operators to show X number of screenings for X number of weeks in X percentage of their theaters for {list of releases} if they want to have any of the Marvel or the Star Wars films.
And the fact that you're going "well until somebody takes Disney to court about it" as though Disney isn't notoriously litigious over all of their things, creating a chilling effect on competition with essentially infinitely deep pockets and armies of lawyers, as though Disney is not literally the reason why US copyright law is so fucked up right now, despite building itself up on the backs of reinterpretations of other people's works...
Well let's just say I'm of the opinion that you're downplaying all of this rather than us exaggerating.
Rock Band DLC | GW:OttW - arrcd | WLD - Thortar
Wut.
The ship scene in Winter Soldier? The Highway Scene in Winter Soldier? The Stairway scene in Civil War, the city chase of Dr Strange, the "one take" sequence of the whole team kicking ass in Avengers, War Machine and Iron Man duking it out with dozens of kill bots in IM2 (ending with a one off laser, which became a consistent marker of how far Tony had pushed the tech gains of the suits through the next decade of movies) the fight between Cap, WS and IM in Civil War, Wakanda battle in Infinity War.....all of these are amazingly well shot and inventive action sequences. These things pushed stunt guys to do some crazy insane stuff that hadnt been seen before. And did it with minimal use of shaky cam and nonsense edits.
Its cool if you dont like the super hero movies of the MCU, but stop wishing to blank it out of existence (irony!) or trying to say that there isnt a shit ton of amazing film work in them.
*OH SNAP! (see what i did there) i almost forgot:
Elevator Scene in Winter Soldier.
Hallway scene in Daredevil
Prison Scene in Daredevil
A lot of marvel fights are blurry cgi messes.
There's a lot of junk in the '00s action blockbusters but the first movie is not one of them.
Black Panther.
Thats the only "popular" Marvel movie that a definitively crap action sequence.
Everything else i named is super popular. Like, tent pole of the whole MCU popular (except Dr Strange, but i tossed that in just to illustrate that Marvel can do crazy CGI inventive action too)
Avengers, Winter Soldier, Civil War, Infinity War.....
That movie is like a distillation of everything possible you could do wrong in a film.
Everyone on an Adam Sandler film is having fun but that really doesn't make the movies worth watching because they got a paid vacation.
For my part maybe 3 of the fights you mentioned were in any way memorable
Also, there are no new ideas under the sun. The idea that dumping more money into "original films" (whatever that means) would create more "original films" is a recursive tautology. A film is a film. Arguing that big-budget movies are not original enough is absurd on its face, because the vast majority of small-budget and independent films are no less derivative. Difference from the norm does not make something original.
Could that possibly be because you've predetermined yourself to not like the MCU stuff?
Which, again, is ok! I hate pickles!
But making claims that things are "generic/ crap/ or cookie cutter" when applied to the MCU is just....incorrect.
The Matrix: stick it to the man
Iron Man: root for the man
The Matrix: tightly constructed and carefully planned in every way
Iron Man: eh there's a writer's strike so let's just make the movie up as we go along
The Matrix: mind blowing imagery that sticks in your mind decades later
Iron Man: that line about the box of scraps was pretty funny
I still don't like The Shining.
I know it's supposed to be a masterpiece of horror cinema or whatever but I just don't like it. Nicholson is the only one of the actors who ever seems to actually be his character, rather than obviously the actor reading lines, and even with him it's pretty much only during scenes with no dialog where his talent for expression does the work. The much-lauded muscial score just annoys me because it's so much louder than everything else and the bits that are supposed to make a scene tense or whatever just seem like the auditory equivalent of jump scares to me. "OOOO! RATTLEY MUSIC! AREN'T YOU SCARED?!!?!" Maybe I'm jaded by too many horror movies but nothing about it is scary. The blood scene still looks good but every other overtly 'horror' shot just looks like something out of a well-done haunted house attraction. And, having read the novel long before seeing the film, a lot of Kubrik's changes to the characters still bother me.
I guess the set designs are pretty cool?
The Matrix also shows the strength of the Marvel films. Since all the characters except Agent Smith were bland cyphers surrounded by an otherwise excellent film, the sequels did not have much to build on other than the film's internal mythos and flopped.
Also in your case it sounds like you got a bit of that "read the books first" thing going on. Which is a bit of a similar situation.
You could also have the disease I have which makes it almost impossible for me to get scared by a horror film because my brain refuses to take it seriously.
Marvel movies are pretty clearly made with a formula
All movies are made with a formula
There are some genuinely experimental films out there, but we aren't exactly comparing the MCU to the Cremaster Cycle here.
I guess the similarities between Sorry to Bother You and Thor 2 are pretty striking when you think about it.
The Matrix: We are going to tell a big story with crazy action and sci fi!
Fails the very next movie and becomes a jumbled mess
Iron Man: We are going to tell a big story with crazy action and sci fi!
Kicks off a 10 year run of 22 movies culminating in the highest grossing movie of all time
Still required a formula to make though.
This is really, profoundly, silly
Any move you heard of uses the same dramatic tension build/release, 3 act structure, and basic rules of storytelling. Everything is formulaic unless you start getting into the really weird avant-garde shit like Lars Von Trier movies, or old David Lynch like Eraserhead.
It's why something like TVTropes is so broadly applicable to everything, to my eternal chagrin.
It's not bad. It's not anything. It just is what it is. I've seen this idea floated that if something conforms to a well worn path that it also somehow detracts from its quality, and I disagree entirely: Much like the wrist, it's all in the execution.
Save the car chase in Identity in the Mini. That was top shelf, almost Ronin quality stuff.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
I think I'm lost then, because at one point this was about how Marvel innovated and took risks.
The classical Hollywood formula is so enduring because it can be used to tell a lot of very different stories and encompass vast innovation, but you can still time the act breaks on most of them down to the minute. If you want to look for American entertainment that breaks out of that mold, an experimental episode of a prestige TV series is a better bet than indie film.
Oh i'm very sorry. I shall differ to your evidently superior understanding of movie making.
Explain how Sorry to Bother You wasnt created using some type of template for story telling. Or lighting. Or Sound. Or editing. Or Acting. Or Advertising.
Often called "a formula"
Fury Road is a completely formulaic hero's journey with Furiosa as the hero. All the beats are there, all the things happen when they're supposed to, it's a formula of film that's been done a million times but it's done so fucking well that it's engrossing, feels fresh, and has resonated with people for years. Rightfully so.
But it is not some completely original, new way to tell a story.
Youve gone from saying that anyone claiming marvel movies are cookie cutter is wrong to arguing every movie is.
Disney isnt coy about having a template from which every mcu movie is made. Its why they hire the directors they do. Its why every movie score sounds the same. They know the levers to pull.
"Nothing is gonna save us forever but a lot of things can save us today." - Night in the Woods