There is absolutely zero emotional commitment to the idea of training in the series, it's basically just what happens in downtime, the series never places any kind of emotional importance on the idea of overcoming odds through hard work, it's just "Oh we spent awhile training in ten hojillion times gravity and now we're stronger"
"Training" is more often used for gags in the series than it is for actual delivery of any kind of central thematic elements
Again, gotta really disagree. The entire Saiyan arc is about Goku and the others furiously training to be tough enough to save the world and the entire devastation of Nappa is that their work didn't pay off. They're the strongest they've ever been, by a lot, but unlike when Goku trained with Korrin or with Roshi it wasn't enough. Yamcha dies horribly without even getting to try his hardest and both Tien and Chiaotzu use self sacrifice that accomplishes nothing. Then this is reversed when Goku arrives and IS strong enough to turn the tide because he worked so so hard.
In the Super version of this story, they invite the Ox King to fight because he's popular with the fans. He didn't do any of the training but surprisingly trades punches with Nappa just fine. Turns out the year of work was meaningless and just having readers who like you is good enough!
Edit: But what if we want all the power scaled out characters to come back and make a difference? That's fine, it's silly fiction. You just have to come up with a silly fiction reason that this is possible. Have a dragon wish Roshi's strength higher for some odd reason (he is wished young and then gets trapped in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, WHATEVER). Just don't keep horribly writing in the old style and this new, much much stupider style. Gohan did not train in between Z and Super and as a consequence, nearly kills himself trying to go Super Saiyan when Frieza arrives. Okay, that checks out by the old rules, so they're still in play. Oh wait, Roshi is now stronger than Goku was at the END of Z. That makes negative 10 million percent sense, by ANY rules you could ever think of. COOL!
Yeah, they did that in the Saiyan arc. And that was the last time training was ever worth anything.
Namek Saga? Guru powerup, Saiyan revival powerup, pure rage powerup into Super Saiyan, fusion with Nail powerup. Goku did train in the ship while flying to Namek but that was only good for fighting the Ginyu Force and was borderline worthless for Frieza.
Android Saga? Chamber of Time powerup, fusion with Kami powerup, pure rage powerup into Super Saiyan 2. The training they did in the interim from Frieza and the Androids? Near worthless outside of Androids 19 and 20. 17 and 18 wiped the floor with everyone.
Buu Saga? Magic Kai powerup, magic earrings powerup, Spirit Bomb ended the threat and considering the energy is from other people even Krillin could do the same thing if he was capable of using the move.
At no point has training been anything more than filler or a cheap excuse to let them briefly look strong before being cratered and needing some of that plot juice to carry the day.
Some notes. Goku's space training was "only good enough" to once again save all of his friends from a freakishly unbeatable monster man. It's almost as if they were doing a deliberate call back to an important series theme!
The Hyperbolic Time Chamber is the training done all at once and off screen. They're still actually doing the hard work. It's actually mercilessly hard work. They're doing workouts every day without stopping for an entire year!
Goku learned the Spirit Bomb... through incredibly hard training. Like... I'm finding it difficult to even discuss this with you when you're full on agreeing with me and then trying to make that a point that you're scoring against me... somehow?
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
A handful of cuts to Goku in his ship on the way to Namek just to go "Oh btw he's still doing push-ups or something" is like the absolute bare minimum of storytelling, I cannot imagine those cuts imparting any kind of emotional impact to literally anyone ever.
God it takes so fucking long for Goku to get to Namek in regular DBZ
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
The Super power levels in the ToP didn't seem that strange to me. The only characters who go from not training at all to being heavy hitters are Gohan and 18. Gohan gets the magical powerup from Piccolo, and 18 is an android, so there's at least some explanation for them. The lesser Z-fighters are all said to be training offscreen and end up fighting random scrubs anyway.
The Super power levels in the ToP didn't seem that strange to me. The only characters who go from not training at all to being heavy hitters are Gohan and 18. Gohan gets the magical powerup from Piccolo, and 18 is an android, so there's at least some explanation for them. The lesser Z-fighters are all said to be training offscreen and end up fighting random scrubs anyway.
No one in the Tournament of Power is a random Scrub, they're the toughest fighters from an entire universe. Assuming they would have less power than an irrelevant fighter from universe 7 strikes me as unjustifiable.
They’re not necessarily the strongest fighters in the universe at the ToP. Weren’t the various gods given, like, a few hours to assemble a whole crew? And I doubt any of them knew who the strongest fighters were off the bat anyway.
They’re not necessarily the strongest fighters in the universe at the ToP. Weren’t the various gods given, like, a few hours to assemble a whole crew? And I doubt any of them knew who the strongest fighters were off the bat anyway.
Universe 7 was given months at least. Why would the other universes not get that time? I think you're just remembering this wrong.
They’re not necessarily the strongest fighters in the universe at the ToP. Weren’t the various gods given, like, a few hours to assemble a whole crew? And I doubt any of them knew who the strongest fighters were off the bat anyway.
Universe 7 was given months at least. Why would the other universes not get that time? I think you're just remembering this wrong.
From the end of the exhibition, when the recruitment drives begin in earnest, to the beginning of the ToP proper, is forty hours.
Buu being in the ToP would of been rad because he has a unique power set and they already had a way written in for him to be eliminated when things inevitably end up like they do with the whole ring-out thing.
I want to see candy-jiren beat the shit out of buu
The problem with Buu is that his powerset was basically made up on the fly as "whatever makes him more obnoxious as a Boss Fight", no matter if it makes sense or not. And to be honest I'm not sure Toriyama is imaginative enough to have something like that on the hero side and make it work.
Dragonball is built on someone always being a little bit better and the hero unlocking some new ability or transformation. So Buu being invincible and OP kinda precludes that. I mean the big thing in Super is Super Saiyan but Blue and/or Rose. And it's still not able to compete with people in their base forms.
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
edited November 2019
I'm not gonna go back and rewatch the entire ToP to confirm, but from what I recall, the characters Krillin, Roshi, and Tien succeed against never get a direct comparison to a real heavy hitter. Between them they take out such threats as Dium, Shosa, Majora, Za Priccio, Caway, Dercori, Ganos, Prum, and Harmira. That's not exactly a distinguished list, and almost all of those fights are still won by very smart fighting or teamwork, rather than raw power. So where's the indication that "Roshi can play now"? He gets thoroughly whipped the moment he goes up against Frost.
I'm not gonna go back and rewatch the entire ToP to confirm, but from what I recall, the characters Krillin, Roshi, and Tien succeed against never get a direct comparison to a real heavy hitter. Between them they take out such threats as Dium, Shosa, Majora, Za Priccio, Caway, Dercori, Ganos, Prum, and Harmira. That's not exactly a distinguished list, and almost all of those fights are still won by very smart fighting or teamwork, rather than raw power. So where's the indication that "Roshi can play now"? He gets thoroughly whipped the moment he goes up against Frost.
I don't really feel like I should be part of this conversation but I experienced Super as a manga, and in it Roshi actually goes toe-to-toe with Jiren and does better than pretty much everyone else combined
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WhiteZinfandelYour insidesLet me show you themRegistered Userregular
I'm not gonna go back and rewatch the entire ToP to confirm, but from what I recall, the characters Krillin, Roshi, and Tien succeed against never get a direct comparison to a real heavy hitter. Between them they take out such threats as Dium, Shosa, Majora, Za Priccio, Caway, Dercori, Ganos, Prum, and Harmira. That's not exactly a distinguished list, and almost all of those fights are still won by very smart fighting or teamwork, rather than raw power. So where's the indication that "Roshi can play now"? He gets thoroughly whipped the moment he goes up against Frost.
I don't really feel like I should be part of this conversation but I experienced Super as a manga, and in it Roshi actually goes toe-to-toe with Jiren and does better than pretty much everyone else combined
I only know what's been posted in this thread about the manga, but didn't somebody say he uses an imperfect Ultra Instinct for that? UI is wack.
And Roshi doesn't "go toe to toe with him", he's able to avoid some of his attacks while scolding Goku
I may be misremembering, but I recall at least two panels—one of which is an "wait, WHAT" expression on Jiren's face, the follow-up of which is him actually having to block one of Roshi's attacks (which, if I remember, looked like one of the forearm-led blows that we hadn't seen since the Jackie Chun days)
I'm not gonna go back and rewatch the entire ToP to confirm, but from what I recall, the characters Krillin, Roshi, and Tien succeed against never get a direct comparison to a real heavy hitter. Between them they take out such threats as Dium, Shosa, Majora, Za Priccio, Caway, Dercori, Ganos, Prum, and Harmira. That's not exactly a distinguished list, and almost all of those fights are still won by very smart fighting or teamwork, rather than raw power. So where's the indication that "Roshi can play now"? He gets thoroughly whipped the moment he goes up against Frost.
I don't really feel like I should be part of this conversation but I experienced Super as a manga, and in it Roshi actually goes toe-to-toe with Jiren and does better than pretty much everyone else combined
I only know what's been posted in this thread about the manga, but didn't somebody say he uses an imperfect Ultra Instinct for that? UI is wack.
He uses something similar to UI's principles but it's basically just the usual "sense the flow of battle and strike at weak points" thing you see in basically every anime martial arts master. Jiren having to block an attack from him can be justified as Roshi being able to sense where his ki is weakest, which fits more in line with how power works in the DB universe when everyone is talking about sensing ki or manipulating it. Since ki is a flow of energy even Jiren could be hurt if hit where he's lacking ki.
That's my headcanon anyway, since ki is a pretty specific thing to be referencing.
The idea that Ultra Instinct is something anyone can do is dope and I hope gets expanded upon because now that’s an actual way the non-saiyan characters can stay competitive
The idea that Ultra Instinct is something anyone can do is dope and I hope gets expanded upon because now that’s an actual way the non-saiyan characters can stay competitive
Maybe I'm a pessimist but I'd be willing to bet that this will never, ever happen in the anime
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
They’re not necessarily the strongest fighters in the universe at the ToP. Weren’t the various gods given, like, a few hours to assemble a whole crew? And I doubt any of them knew who the strongest fighters were off the bat anyway.
Yeah like, Broly is clearly the strongest from universe 7 but he wasn’t competing
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
They’re not necessarily the strongest fighters in the universe at the ToP. Weren’t the various gods given, like, a few hours to assemble a whole crew? And I doubt any of them knew who the strongest fighters were off the bat anyway.
Yeah like, Broly is clearly the strongest from universe 7 but he wasn’t competing
The idea that Ultra Instinct is something anyone can do is dope and I hope gets expanded upon because now that’s an actual way the non-saiyan characters can stay competitive
So Roshi is like 300 and still trains of course hed be close to UI
I have a podcast now. It's about video games and anime!Find it here.
I want an arc (or a movie; probably prefer a movie) where they end up going "Screw this! Somebody go get Broly! Somebody please go get Broly!"
They track Broly down, but he's happy just kicking back with Cheelai, a giant grill, and some giant space meat sizzling away and doesn't particularly care to go back to fighting. That was his dick of a dad's dream for him.
The idea that Ultra Instinct is something anyone can do is dope and I hope gets expanded upon because now that’s an actual way the non-saiyan characters can stay competitive
Maybe I'm a pessimist but I'd be willing to bet that this will never, ever happen in the anime
there are many roads Super could go down and does not but it does enough of them that I have to just hold onto hope
They’re not necessarily the strongest fighters in the universe at the ToP. Weren’t the various gods given, like, a few hours to assemble a whole crew? And I doubt any of them knew who the strongest fighters were off the bat anyway.
Yeah like, Broly is clearly the strongest from universe 7 but he wasn’t competing
They didn't even try to recruit Pikkon!
Yeah Pikkon bodied Freiza and Cell in like 8 seconds and has been, presumably, training for the past couple years. It would have been cool to bring him back and have conversations with Piccolo about being green dudes.
I don't think the otherworld tournament or the characters from it are canon, it was a filler anime arc like fake namek and the garlic jr. saga and such
New Dragon Ball Super chapter is out on Viz. That was a pretty fun fight.
Not sure how much I like the stalling stuff, but it was a pretty nice "Oh Shit" moment when 73 pulled out Moro's powers. And Merus being an Angel is basically confirmed now.
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Some notes. Goku's space training was "only good enough" to once again save all of his friends from a freakishly unbeatable monster man. It's almost as if they were doing a deliberate call back to an important series theme!
The Hyperbolic Time Chamber is the training done all at once and off screen. They're still actually doing the hard work. It's actually mercilessly hard work. They're doing workouts every day without stopping for an entire year!
Goku learned the Spirit Bomb... through incredibly hard training. Like... I'm finding it difficult to even discuss this with you when you're full on agreeing with me and then trying to make that a point that you're scoring against me... somehow?
Steam Switch FC: 2799-7909-4852
No one in the Tournament of Power is a random Scrub, they're the toughest fighters from an entire universe. Assuming they would have less power than an irrelevant fighter from universe 7 strikes me as unjustifiable.
“I was a god once”
“That’s cool. Jiren trained really hard”
Universe 7 was given months at least. Why would the other universes not get that time? I think you're just remembering this wrong.
From the end of the exhibition, when the recruitment drives begin in earnest, to the beginning of the ToP proper, is forty hours.
The problem with Buu is that his powerset was basically made up on the fly as "whatever makes him more obnoxious as a Boss Fight", no matter if it makes sense or not. And to be honest I'm not sure Toriyama is imaginative enough to have something like that on the hero side and make it work.
I don't really feel like I should be part of this conversation but I experienced Super as a manga, and in it Roshi actually goes toe-to-toe with Jiren and does better than pretty much everyone else combined
I only know what's been posted in this thread about the manga, but didn't somebody say he uses an imperfect Ultra Instinct for that? UI is wack.
I may be misremembering, but I recall at least two panels—one of which is an "wait, WHAT" expression on Jiren's face, the follow-up of which is him actually having to block one of Roshi's attacks (which, if I remember, looked like one of the forearm-led blows that we hadn't seen since the Jackie Chun days)
He uses something similar to UI's principles but it's basically just the usual "sense the flow of battle and strike at weak points" thing you see in basically every anime martial arts master. Jiren having to block an attack from him can be justified as Roshi being able to sense where his ki is weakest, which fits more in line with how power works in the DB universe when everyone is talking about sensing ki or manipulating it. Since ki is a flow of energy even Jiren could be hurt if hit where he's lacking ki.
That's my headcanon anyway, since ki is a pretty specific thing to be referencing.
Maybe I'm a pessimist but I'd be willing to bet that this will never, ever happen in the anime
Yeah like, Broly is clearly the strongest from universe 7 but he wasn’t competing
They didn't even try to recruit Pikkon!
So Roshi is like 300 and still trains of course hed be close to UI
They track Broly down, but he's happy just kicking back with Cheelai, a giant grill, and some giant space meat sizzling away and doesn't particularly care to go back to fighting. That was his dick of a dad's dream for him.
there are many roads Super could go down and does not but it does enough of them that I have to just hold onto hope
Yeah Pikkon bodied Freiza and Cell in like 8 seconds and has been, presumably, training for the past couple years. It would have been cool to bring him back and have conversations with Piccolo about being green dudes.
because, I mean:
Or! Or.
They’re both in the same generation.
Saiyan boomers.
(Here the boom is, well, the planet)