Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
OUAT is one of the dumbest cards I've seen them print while I was playing standard.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I mean, ouat will still absolutely be played in every format it's legal because it's a fucking nonsense card
but yeah
oh for sure
i was only using them for standard so I shuffled em off right away while I could
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PiptheFairFrequently not in boats.Registered Userregular
like, I get the motivation behind pushing green for more eternal focused formats because it desperately needs it, and they want to do it in a non-limited print set unlike force of vigor and hogaak
it's a pity because the flavour of OUAT is perfect, i can see how they got so carried away by the elegance of the design that they just thought fuck it, let's do it
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Last week, Greg Weisman contributed his two cents about what went down in Forsaken with Chandra:
Response to my latest novel, War of the Spark: Forsaken, has been understandably negative, particularly as a result of how the character of Chandra Nalaar was depicted in the book. My response is a bit late in coming, but here it is:
After reading the materials that preceded my work on Magic: The Gathering, I was particularly intrigued by the burgeoning relationship between Chandra and Nissa. I felt that it should culminate in the War of the Spark books. In lieu of bringing them together, as it was not a relationship that WotC planned to pursue, my goal was to write something that honored Chandra's feelings for Nissa and Nissa's feelings for Chandra, something that would give closure to their relationship in a sad but satisfying and understandable way. I believe that if readers had seen my original ideas for the chapter in question, they might have gotten a better sense of what I was trying to accomplish. They might have liked it better. Or maybe they wouldn't have. In any case, through the mutual creative/editorial process with WotC and Del Rey, we ended up with the final product that was published in Forsaken, which clearly didn't meet anyone's expectations or delivers on my intentions. And for that, I am truly sorry.
Last week, Greg Weisman contributed his two cents about what went down in Forsaken with Chandra:
Response to my latest novel, War of the Spark: Forsaken, has been understandably negative, particularly as a result of how the character of Chandra Nalaar was depicted in the book. My response is a bit late in coming, but here it is:
After reading the materials that preceded my work on Magic: The Gathering, I was particularly intrigued by the burgeoning relationship between Chandra and Nissa. I felt that it should culminate in the War of the Spark books. In lieu of bringing them together, as it was not a relationship that WotC planned to pursue, my goal was to write something that honored Chandra's feelings for Nissa and Nissa's feelings for Chandra, something that would give closure to their relationship in a sad but satisfying and understandable way. I believe that if readers had seen my original ideas for the chapter in question, they might have gotten a better sense of what I was trying to accomplish. They might have liked it better. Or maybe they wouldn't have. In any case, through the mutual creative/editorial process with WotC and Del Rey, we ended up with the final product that was published in Forsaken, which clearly didn't meet anyone's expectations or delivers on my intentions. And for that, I am truly sorry.
TL;DR: Something got lost in the editing.
I used to edit books
This is not something that gets lost in editing unless he was dictated to completely change what he was going for, or his final draft just got pages cut with no input from him, which is... unlikely
Long story short, somebody lyin'
+5
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admanbunionize your workplaceSeattle, WARegistered Userregular
Have you edited books for a corporate publisher with content guidelines? Because that seems like it'd be a little different.
I mean one way or the other it's about as explicit as it can be that WotC chose to bury the gay relationship for some sort of marketing purpose, probably the desire to expand the brand in regions where homosexuality is illegal.
I mean one way or the other it's about as explicit as it can be that WotC chose to bury the gay relationship for some sort of marketing purpose, probably the desire to expand the brand in regions where homosexuality is illegal.
They left Ral and Tomik's relationship completely intact, though.
They didn't want Nissa and Chandra to end up together for whatever reason(s) but burying gay relationships does not appear to be on the actual agenda.
Ral Zarek is not a figurehead character. Chandra appears in comic books and stars in the upcoming Netflix series. They're extremely apples and oranges.
+6
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Also nissa is green and chandra is red
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
That seems to be the core of what he was trying to say. When he came in WotC had decided they weren’t going to continue a Chanda/Nissa ship and he is saying he tried to do the best with it that he could. Which, still not very good even considering.
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KalTorakOne way or another, they all end up inthe Undercity.Registered Userregular
Yeah but there's still a pretty significant difference between not continuing an existing relationship and retconning so it never happened, no you guys were just imagining it
I can't decide if I'd rather have not known that this existed.
I'm reasonably familiar with the various promos that come out and had never heard/seen of any of the other Heroes of the Realm ones that they have listed here.
That doesn't bode well for me ever getting my hands on one.
Kelor on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Clearly, optimus is blue and red.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I can't decide if I'd rather have not known that this existed.
I'm reasonably familiar with the various promos that come out and had never heard/seen of any of the other Heroes of the Realm ones that they have listed here.
That doesn't bode well for me ever getting my hands on one.
There are four Dungeon Masters in existence. There's maybe more of the newer cards, I dunno, but they're employee gifts and super exclusive. They're also even less tournament legal than silver-bordered and playtest cards, since they have a completely different cardback.
I don't think anyone on Earth would blame you if you proxied them for your un-cube or whatever. Throw in a copy of 1996 World Champion while you're at it.
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IlpalaJust this guy, y'knowTexasRegistered Userregular
I appreciate that Oko is dumb. Like really fucking dumb. Like, the dumbest since the ACTUAL dumbest got printed.
But Jace, the Mind Sculptor happened.
FF XIV - Qih'to Furishu (on Siren), Battle.Net - Ilpala#1975
Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
Fuck Joe Manchin
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I appreciate that Oko is dumb. Like really fucking dumb. Like, the dumbest since the ACTUAL dumbest got printed.
But Jace, the Mind Sculptor happened.
Yeah but I wasn't playing standard when jace the wallet sculptor was printed.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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IlpalaJust this guy, y'knowTexasRegistered Userregular
lol yea.
Wonder what the dumbest between them is. Stoneforge doesn't count cuz it was the same time as Jace. Deathrite Shaman? Treasure Cruise? Mental Misstep if we're counting older formats.
FF XIV - Qih'to Furishu (on Siren), Battle.Net - Ilpala#1975
Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
Fuck Joe Manchin
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astrobstrdSo full of mercy...Registered Userregular
Okay, so new spoilers are up, and first one I see is Once Upon a Time.
Seriously? A free Commune with Dino's that hits any creature, not just dinos, as your first spell, then only 1 mana more the rest of the game? Busted.
It's also used in Modern but hasn't been abused quite yet (like, I don't get why Humans doesn't run it).
begin rant
Re: Financials
Every magic player I know hates the Reserved List. Besides the obvious power 9 and dual lands, we'll never see Aluren, Recycle, Shallow Grave, Sliver Queen, Corpse Dance, and Energy Bolt will never be reprinted (and thus, some of my favorite cards when I first started playing). None of those (besides Aluren and possibly Sliver Queen if it were in Modern) are good enough for eternal formats which means you only get to play them in Commander or Kitchen Table magic.
They try to walk a fine line by not talking about the secondary market but all it means is that eternal formats shrink further and further in size as fewer and fewer people have a chance to play in them and more and more of the staples are purchased by investors and sit locked away. It's stupid and we all hate it. Some days I wish the EU (because the US would never look into it) would really go after the Loot Box aspect of the game but I simultaneously worry about what that would mean to the overall game because I'm not sure if WoTC would handle the transition well.
Even though I sold my physical collection last year, I don't regret it even after I watched the dual lands literally double to triple in price because I sold them to a friend who actually plays with them while I didn't have a playgroup. The cards were meant to be played, not sit in binders. /end rant
Wonder what the dumbest between them is. Stoneforge doesn't count cuz it was the same time as Jace. Deathrite Shaman? Treasure Cruise? Mental Misstep if we're counting older formats.
Mental Misstep was so dumb it's been banned in every format in which it is legal save the one where it could merely be restricted.
I've only played since dtk so it's not like I started on the high power side of the scale but none of the other bans since then I think hit the absurdity of the power level of veil, OUaT, Oko.
Throne attempted to do a lot of broken designs that could fit safely at the standard power level and some of them worked fine. Like emry is an absurd card but it is only absurd outside of standard for now. And that hits for me like something like dig/cruise/deathrite that were just ok in their standards but much improved by older format cards and I broadly think that's an ok place to be.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I've only played since dtk so it's not like I started on the high power side of the scale but none of the other bans since then I think hit the absurdity of the power level of veil, OUaT, Oko.
Throne attempted to do a lot of broken designs that could fit safely at the standard power level and some of them worked fine. Like emry is an absurd card but it is only absurd outside of standard for now. And that hits for me like something like dig/cruise/deathrite that were just ok in their standards but much improved by older format cards and I broadly think that's an ok place to be.
But they missed by a wide margin on those first 3
It's telling that the strongest deck probably in standard right now still includes green.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
The big Pioneer update happened yesterday and absolutely everybody, EVERYBODY guessed what was on it:
So, cards banned from Standard, that were on a ridiculous meta percentage, were likely to get banned? Say it ain't so.
Overall, looking at Boros Feather since it seems like a cheap fun deck. Is basically Pioneer Infect, latest versions have been dropped the not great Phalanx Leader for Dreadhorde Arcanist, which is a very good upgrade.
Wonder what the dumbest between them is. Stoneforge doesn't count cuz it was the same time as Jace. Deathrite Shaman? Treasure Cruise? Mental Misstep if we're counting older formats.
Mental Misstep was so dumb it's been banned in every format in which it is legal save the one where it could merely be restricted.
EDIT: Although I guess it was fine for Standard?
I think almost as a rule, the cards that ended up banned in Standard (plus eternal formats) are dumber than the ones that weren't, since R&D is supposed to be testing for Standard and not worrying as much about the eternal formats. Like they probably guessed that Delve was so much more powerful in Modern etc. that they would have to ban Cruise after a season or so, and it ended up being fine in Standard. On the flipside, cards that get banned in Standard but not eternal formats are dumber in that they should have been caught in testing, but them being okay for eternal formats suggests that the right answers would keep them in check - Felidar Guardian was a dumb mistake they should have caught, Rogue Refiner/Attune/Aetherworks needed balance adjustments at the very least.
The standout dumbest ones (to me) are the ones that break Standard and also take over eternal formats, because that means even a wide array of answers wasn't enough to stop them. It means that R&D let the card through without enough of the factors that rein in power levels.
Smuggler's Copter - No deckbuilding constraints - goes in any deck that can Crew it, of any color. Doesn't die to sorcery removal or boardwipes.
Once Upon a Time - Again, very low deckbuilding constraints - if you're playing any creatures, you might as well just toss in some green mana you won't need to use half the time to cast this. At least Ancient Stirrings needs your deck to be mostly colorless; OuaT just needs "mostly creatures or lands" which is a lot larger of a pool.
Field of the Dead - Lands are hard to kill, and interchangeability among lands removes a lot of the inconvenience of deckbuilding. Ramp usually is balanced by the fact that you need to assemble the pieces at the right time like a combo: Ramp first, then big-mana payoff. With Field, the ramp becomes its own payoff; Circuitous Route would be a dead card late in the game in a traditional Ramp deck that needs a Craterhoof, with Field it's a one-card army.
Oko - Planeswalkers are supposed to have the built-in power limit of being attackable, but Oko gets around that in practically every way possible. High loyalty means you need to hit him hard to kill him, two plus abilities means chip damage is basically useless (other walkers are partly depowered if you attack them enough so they can't be minused), low mana cost means you probably don't have an army ready before he comes down, he can make his own defenders AND neutralize attackers. Once you take away his attackability, he's pretty much as hard to kill as an enchantment; burn is almost as useless as attacking. If you don't have a Spyglass or Downfall-style removal ready to go, you're pretty much done.
I think Oko is the dumbest card in a long time because they really should have seen how impossible they made it to kill him the usual way; it feels like almost Felidar Guardian levels of "whoops, missed that completely", to the point where it's reminiscent of the tiny editing errors that made Tarmogoyf so powerful (*/1+* instead of */*, 1G instead of 2G). Maybe it'll come out that someone forgot to change his +1 to a -1 or his starting loyalty from 4 to 2.
The less we talk about Mental Misstep, the better. Making every deck a 56 card deck for the Mental Misstep minigame is very, very dumb.
Overall, format is wide open again, even with Elk Man around, since there's more ways to get around him, whatever is going under him (aggro decks), answering him (B/G/x, U/W/x, mirror) or going over him (Nythkos, Eldrazi Ramp).
Oko probably would have been fine if the Elkify was a -1, possibly even a 0, or if he cost 4 mana. As it stood, he was way too good at 3 mana.
I even think they could have left his Elk ability as a +1 and given it a limit of hitting CMC 3 or less targets. He'd still be pretty busted but at least I'd get more than one turn with my Questing Beast or whatever.
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astrobstrdSo full of mercy...Registered Userregular
I think Oko would have been super reasonable if it only elkified stuff you control.
Posts
oh for sure
i was only using them for standard so I shuffled em off right away while I could
but come on, ouat and veil are just so silly
I was about to remove the one of qualifier and my brain was suddenly flooded by visions of the strongest planeswalker ever turning me into an elk
Yeah Oko is without a doubt the dumbest
The Kaleidoscope Killers arena sleeve is not The Ur-Dragon.
This is a problem.
TL;DR: Something got lost in the editing.
I used to edit books
This is not something that gets lost in editing unless he was dictated to completely change what he was going for, or his final draft just got pages cut with no input from him, which is... unlikely
Long story short, somebody lyin'
They left Ral and Tomik's relationship completely intact, though.
They didn't want Nissa and Chandra to end up together for whatever reason(s) but burying gay relationships does not appear to be on the actual agenda.
I'm reasonably familiar with the various promos that come out and had never heard/seen of any of the other Heroes of the Realm ones that they have listed here.
That doesn't bode well for me ever getting my hands on one.
There are four Dungeon Masters in existence. There's maybe more of the newer cards, I dunno, but they're employee gifts and super exclusive. They're also even less tournament legal than silver-bordered and playtest cards, since they have a completely different cardback.
I don't think anyone on Earth would blame you if you proxied them for your un-cube or whatever. Throw in a copy of 1996 World Champion while you're at it.
But Jace, the Mind Sculptor happened.
Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
Fuck Joe Manchin
Yeah but I wasn't playing standard when jace the wallet sculptor was printed.
Wonder what the dumbest between them is. Stoneforge doesn't count cuz it was the same time as Jace. Deathrite Shaman? Treasure Cruise? Mental Misstep if we're counting older formats.
Switch - SW-7373-3669-3011
Fuck Joe Manchin
Or like, all of the Urza block.
It's also used in Modern but hasn't been abused quite yet (like, I don't get why Humans doesn't run it).
begin rant
Re: Financials
Every magic player I know hates the Reserved List. Besides the obvious power 9 and dual lands, we'll never see Aluren, Recycle, Shallow Grave, Sliver Queen, Corpse Dance, and Energy Bolt will never be reprinted (and thus, some of my favorite cards when I first started playing). None of those (besides Aluren and possibly Sliver Queen if it were in Modern) are good enough for eternal formats which means you only get to play them in Commander or Kitchen Table magic.
They try to walk a fine line by not talking about the secondary market but all it means is that eternal formats shrink further and further in size as fewer and fewer people have a chance to play in them and more and more of the staples are purchased by investors and sit locked away. It's stupid and we all hate it. Some days I wish the EU (because the US would never look into it) would really go after the Loot Box aspect of the game but I simultaneously worry about what that would mean to the overall game because I'm not sure if WoTC would handle the transition well.
Even though I sold my physical collection last year, I don't regret it even after I watched the dual lands literally double to triple in price because I sold them to a friend who actually plays with them while I didn't have a playgroup. The cards were meant to be played, not sit in binders. /end rant
Mental Misstep was so dumb it's been banned in every format in which it is legal save the one where it could merely be restricted.
EDIT: Although I guess it was fine for Standard?
Throne attempted to do a lot of broken designs that could fit safely at the standard power level and some of them worked fine. Like emry is an absurd card but it is only absurd outside of standard for now. And that hits for me like something like dig/cruise/deathrite that were just ok in their standards but much improved by older format cards and I broadly think that's an ok place to be.
But they missed by a wide margin on those first 3
It's telling that the strongest deck probably in standard right now still includes green.
So, cards banned from Standard, that were on a ridiculous meta percentage, were likely to get banned? Say it ain't so.
Overall, looking at Boros Feather since it seems like a cheap fun deck. Is basically Pioneer Infect, latest versions have been dropped the not great Phalanx Leader for Dreadhorde Arcanist, which is a very good upgrade.
I think almost as a rule, the cards that ended up banned in Standard (plus eternal formats) are dumber than the ones that weren't, since R&D is supposed to be testing for Standard and not worrying as much about the eternal formats. Like they probably guessed that Delve was so much more powerful in Modern etc. that they would have to ban Cruise after a season or so, and it ended up being fine in Standard. On the flipside, cards that get banned in Standard but not eternal formats are dumber in that they should have been caught in testing, but them being okay for eternal formats suggests that the right answers would keep them in check - Felidar Guardian was a dumb mistake they should have caught, Rogue Refiner/Attune/Aetherworks needed balance adjustments at the very least.
The standout dumbest ones (to me) are the ones that break Standard and also take over eternal formats, because that means even a wide array of answers wasn't enough to stop them. It means that R&D let the card through without enough of the factors that rein in power levels.
I think Oko is the dumbest card in a long time because they really should have seen how impossible they made it to kill him the usual way; it feels like almost Felidar Guardian levels of "whoops, missed that completely", to the point where it's reminiscent of the tiny editing errors that made Tarmogoyf so powerful (*/1+* instead of */*, 1G instead of 2G). Maybe it'll come out that someone forgot to change his +1 to a -1 or his starting loyalty from 4 to 2.
Overall, format is wide open again, even with Elk Man around, since there's more ways to get around him, whatever is going under him (aggro decks), answering him (B/G/x, U/W/x, mirror) or going over him (Nythkos, Eldrazi Ramp).
And yeah Elkify not being a minus is ridiculous.
I even think they could have left his Elk ability as a +1 and given it a limit of hitting CMC 3 or less targets. He'd still be pretty busted but at least I'd get more than one turn with my Questing Beast or whatever.