If it was Iran.... did anyone think they would have done this intentionally?
That does not track at all.
As a few people have said in the US foreign policy thread, most likely someone at an AA defence system making a mistake because they were on alert for US planes attacking them.
That's been my assumption all along.... At no point do I believe that anyone made the conscious decision to bomb a commercial plane though.
I want to believe this is true, but if Iran leadership is interested in sustaining the appearance that they're keeping their heads cool during this whole thing, they need to release a statement real quick.
3DS FC: 1547-5210-6531
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ApogeeLancks In Every Game EverRegistered Userregular
If it was Iran.... did anyone think they would have done this intentionally?
That does not track at all.
As a few people have said in the US foreign policy thread, most likely someone at an AA defence system making a mistake because they were on alert for US planes attacking them.
Just to paste in my explanation from that thread of how this sort of thing can happen:
Yeah, the reasonable thing to do when putting your air defence on high alert is to shut down civilian traffic.
Consider being a SAM site operator in Iran at this point. You know that AA is going to be the first thing taken out by incoming US planes, so that they can clear a path for the bigger, less stealthy aircraft. The first wave of aircraft often use missiles that specifically look for ground-based radar and home in on it, so you can only run your radar in short bursts to avoid being a big 'shoot here' sign. Bear in mind that transponder info like that of a civilian airliner can easily be spoofed, so you can't trust the 'I'm a 737, don't shoot me' sign on any aircraft out there.
So, our hypothetical solider just happens to be along the flight path of the 737 that just took off. He turns on his radar at just the right moment to see a big aircraft heading right for him - it looks like it was skimming along the ground under radar and is now lifting up high to drop a payload and run. He's got seconds to figure out what to do - if he does nothing and it's a US military craft, he's sitting next to a giant radar emitter and he's toast. All it takes is a moment of self-preservation panic to press fire.
tl;dr don't put the people with missiles on high alert when you have civilian traffic flying around as though nothing is wrong.
Apogee on
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
Iran has no reason to attack commercial airliners. Iran's best interest is to turn sideways, look big, and fluff their fur while hissing and batting* at the US in a way that doesn't instigate conflict. They don't actually want to fight, and they aren't sociopaths who just want to hurt people from the West. The end of that statement might be necessary, though - it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of people just internalized "Iran bad, Middle East = terrorism, they must be bombing airliners for terrorist reasons," because people, especially Westerners, I think (though it's a species trait), tend to be really, really bad at seeing people they don't like as more than dimensionless cutouts, and lack the impulsive empathy that lets them see what Iranians must actually want.
*or otherwise intimidate others out of a fight, but it turns out nation states are a lot like animals in how they act and their interests...
Basically, the American president, trying to distract people from impeachment proceedings, needlessly created a situation that resulted in the death of 176 civilians, including 63 Canadians.
Any time I think I can't hate the guy more ...
TubularLuggage on
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ShivahnUnaware of her barrel shifter privilegeWestern coastal temptressRegistered User, Moderatormod
Basically, the American president, trying to distract people from the impeachment proceedings, needlessly created a situation that resulted in the death of 176 civilians, including 63 Canadians.
Any time I think I can't hate the guy more ...
Hey now, let's not go mind reading. He might have done it just to be a dick.
(I think that the strike might have been the single most disastrous decision of his presidency, if not... well, I don't know, I'm having trouble thinking of another presidential mistake of this magnitude.)
Basically, the American president, trying to distract people from impeachment proceedings, needlessly created a situation that resulted in the death of 176 civilians, including 63 Canadians.
Any time I think I can't hate the guy more ...
Absolutely.
If the current apparent narrative turns out to be the truth, then Iran absolutely needs to be held to account for that and respond appropriately.
However, if we agree that this event was the result of a horrible accident that took place as a result of heightened paranoia and nerves, we cannot forget that there is a reason why Iran may have been feeling nervous and paranoid.
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
If you're unwilling to acknowledge something exists, you're very unlikely to make any changes that will have a different outcome. I have no desire to see things pushed to escalation all over again, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the status quo of no diplomacy and Sanctions is blameless in creating a situation ready to explode at the first bit of human malice or error.
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
If you're unwilling to acknowledge something exists, you're very unlikely to make any changes that will have a different outcome. I have no desire to see things pushed to escalation all over again, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the status quo of no diplomacy and Sanctions is blameless in creating a situation ready to explode at the first bit of human malice or error.
You've provided zero reason why anything Canada has done has contributed to this problem in any way. This is all still some farcical silliness. Like people are desperate to find some reason why we must have something to do with these events.
Also, you should look at what happened with Europe, who actually have some decent amount of trade with Iran, and Iranian sanctions. Because, as ever, it's not as simple as just doing whatever you want.
I'm also curious to hear any reasoning for how this is Canada's fault at all. I just don't see it.
Even if we had Amazing, top notch 100% diplomatic relations it still would have done squat.
They blew up that plane because of a series of events triggered by the leader of the most powerful military in the word started a chain reaction of events because he's a moron.
Our relationship with Iran was 0% a contributing factor. Hell, most of the folks on there had Iranian passports....
I totally agree.
Was just speaking with an Iranian colleague of mine and he knew a number of people on that flight. I'm honestly shocked by how much of a "small world" this event has shown us to have. Especially when it comes to immigrant communities.
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ArcticLancerBest served chilled.Registered Userregular
Yeah, my partner was telling me this morning she's spoken to two people so far who knew someone who has been effected by this. It's within 3 degrees of connectedness pretty easily.
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
If you're unwilling to acknowledge something exists, you're very unlikely to make any changes that will have a different outcome. I have no desire to see things pushed to escalation all over again, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the status quo of no diplomacy and Sanctions is blameless in creating a situation ready to explode at the first bit of human malice or error.
You've provided zero reason why anything Canada has done has contributed to this problem in any way. This is all still some farcical silliness. Like people are desperate to find some reason why we must have something to do with these events.
Also, you should look at what happened with Europe, who actually have some decent amount of trade with Iran, and Iranian sanctions. Because, as ever, it's not as simple as just doing whatever you want.
You’re not wrong in that words are failing me to adequately make the case for better diplomacy.
So I hope you don’t mind if I use another’s from 2010 from the run up IIRC to Obama trying to improve relations with Iran
Undermining Communication and Increasing Misperception
In addition to information collection, one of the primary roles of an embassy is to serve as a conduit for communication between the sender and target state.29 Embassy officials constantly meet with both high-level members of the government and with citizens of their host country. Day-to-day communication is essential, not only to convey U.S. interests and understand host country concerns, but also to explain certain key U.S. decisions. Similarly, regular face-to-face communication in the target country also helps the sender state to forge relationships with people in the host state and develop these relationships over time.30
Diplomatic sanctions may hinder communication between the target and sender states, making miscommunication or misperception between the states more likely. Such sanctions create fewer formal channels of communication and contribute to increased resistance to other forms of state-to-state interaction in the name of isolation. Not only is communication reduced, but states are also more likely to be dismissive or uncertain about the nature of messages conveyed through alternative communication channels or third parties.
During the Korean conflict, for instance, U.S. uncertainty regarding the credibility of a message sent from China through a third-party ambassador may have influenced China's decision to enter the war. At the time, the United States and China did not have diplomatic relations. While Chinese preparations to intervene began prior to the U.S. crossing of the 38th parallel, the decision to intervene does not appear to have been fully finalized and implemented until after the Chinese perceived Soviet support to be secured and the Americans actually crossed the 38th parallel.31 The Chinese even issued a warning after an emergency meeting on October 2, 1950, stating, “The American forces are endeavoring to cross the 38th parallel and aim to expand the war. If they really want to do so, we will not sit still and do nothing. We will surely respond. Please inform your prime minister of this position.” 32
Diplomatic sanctions detract from U.S. public diplomacy to the target state's people.
The warning, however, was issued through an Indian diplomat, who served as the third-party communicator between China and the United States. According to Secretary of State Dean Acheson, the reports from the Indians were consistent on this issue, but were not taken to be completely credible as the United States thought that Ambassador Kavalam Pannikar of India, who conveyed the message, was not the most reliable messenger.33 The United States viewed Pannikar as a biased messenger and distrusted him due to his “leftist” political beliefs. David Halberstam writes that Acheson “viewed Pannikar as a mouthpiece for Beijing and not a serious diplomat.”34
More recently, the lack of diplomatic relations between Iran and the United States contributed to another situation in which a message was passed through a third party from the Iranians to the United States and ultimately ignored. In May 2003, the Foreign Ministry of Iran sent a fax to the Swiss ambassador in Tehran proposing a “grand bargain” between Iran and the United States. The document addressed terrorism, Iran's nuclear program, and Israel, calling for direct talks in addition to U.S.-Iran working groups on disarmament, regional security, and economic cooperation.35 According to multiple sources, the United States neither responded to the fax nor seriously considered the proposal.36 While it is unclear whether Iran and the United States could have made progress on any of the issues had the proposal been addressed, the diplomatic climate combined with the U.S. policy of isolating the regime took even considering the proposal off the table.
Canada’s sanctions are supporting what can be read in the above article that recognized sanctions increase tensions and make war more likely. We supported them and their kill-whoever-he-feels-like President in creating the conditions that led to these horrible, unnecessary tragic deaths.
We still too closely mirror the failed USA international policies that led to this, it won’t be the last unnecessary deaths if we keep letting our warhawks follow their warhawks to war, even if they aren’t elected their bungling of international relations when they were need to be redressed even if it ruffles American feathers. We could have been trying to bring them both back to peace talks instead of propping up this dictatorial President, even minimally, on the world stage.
You accuse me of being silly, but good diplomacy is a very serious matter, sometimes it means not bolstering the bad intentions of our allies by using more nuance than officially ignoring the enemies they helped make.
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
If you're unwilling to acknowledge something exists, you're very unlikely to make any changes that will have a different outcome. I have no desire to see things pushed to escalation all over again, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the status quo of no diplomacy and Sanctions is blameless in creating a situation ready to explode at the first bit of human malice or error.
You've provided zero reason why anything Canada has done has contributed to this problem in any way. This is all still some farcical silliness. Like people are desperate to find some reason why we must have something to do with these events.
Also, you should look at what happened with Europe, who actually have some decent amount of trade with Iran, and Iranian sanctions. Because, as ever, it's not as simple as just doing whatever you want.
You’re not wrong in that words are failing me to adequately make the case for better diplomacy.
So I hope you don’t mind if I use another’s from 2010 from the run up IIRC to Obama trying to improve relations with Iran
Undermining Communication and Increasing Misperception
In addition to information collection, one of the primary roles of an embassy is to serve as a conduit for communication between the sender and target state.29 Embassy officials constantly meet with both high-level members of the government and with citizens of their host country. Day-to-day communication is essential, not only to convey U.S. interests and understand host country concerns, but also to explain certain key U.S. decisions. Similarly, regular face-to-face communication in the target country also helps the sender state to forge relationships with people in the host state and develop these relationships over time.30
Diplomatic sanctions may hinder communication between the target and sender states, making miscommunication or misperception between the states more likely. Such sanctions create fewer formal channels of communication and contribute to increased resistance to other forms of state-to-state interaction in the name of isolation. Not only is communication reduced, but states are also more likely to be dismissive or uncertain about the nature of messages conveyed through alternative communication channels or third parties.
During the Korean conflict, for instance, U.S. uncertainty regarding the credibility of a message sent from China through a third-party ambassador may have influenced China's decision to enter the war. At the time, the United States and China did not have diplomatic relations. While Chinese preparations to intervene began prior to the U.S. crossing of the 38th parallel, the decision to intervene does not appear to have been fully finalized and implemented until after the Chinese perceived Soviet support to be secured and the Americans actually crossed the 38th parallel.31 The Chinese even issued a warning after an emergency meeting on October 2, 1950, stating, “The American forces are endeavoring to cross the 38th parallel and aim to expand the war. If they really want to do so, we will not sit still and do nothing. We will surely respond. Please inform your prime minister of this position.” 32
Diplomatic sanctions detract from U.S. public diplomacy to the target state's people.
The warning, however, was issued through an Indian diplomat, who served as the third-party communicator between China and the United States. According to Secretary of State Dean Acheson, the reports from the Indians were consistent on this issue, but were not taken to be completely credible as the United States thought that Ambassador Kavalam Pannikar of India, who conveyed the message, was not the most reliable messenger.33 The United States viewed Pannikar as a biased messenger and distrusted him due to his “leftist” political beliefs. David Halberstam writes that Acheson “viewed Pannikar as a mouthpiece for Beijing and not a serious diplomat.”34
More recently, the lack of diplomatic relations between Iran and the United States contributed to another situation in which a message was passed through a third party from the Iranians to the United States and ultimately ignored. In May 2003, the Foreign Ministry of Iran sent a fax to the Swiss ambassador in Tehran proposing a “grand bargain” between Iran and the United States. The document addressed terrorism, Iran's nuclear program, and Israel, calling for direct talks in addition to U.S.-Iran working groups on disarmament, regional security, and economic cooperation.35 According to multiple sources, the United States neither responded to the fax nor seriously considered the proposal.36 While it is unclear whether Iran and the United States could have made progress on any of the issues had the proposal been addressed, the diplomatic climate combined with the U.S. policy of isolating the regime took even considering the proposal off the table.
Canada’s sanctions are supporting what can be read in the above article that recognized sanctions increase tensions and make war more likely. We supported them and their kill-whoever-he-feels-like President in creating the conditions that led to these horrible, unnecessary tragic deaths.
We still too closely mirror the failed USA international policies that led to this, it won’t be the last unnecessary deaths if we keep letting our warhawks follow their warhawks to war, even if they aren’t elected their bungling of international relations when they were need to be redressed even if it ruffles American feathers. We could have been trying to bring them both back to peace talks instead of propping up this dictatorial President, even minimally, on the world stage.
You accuse me of being silly, but good diplomacy is a very serious matter, sometimes it means not bolstering the bad intentions of our allies by using more nuance than officially ignoring the enemies they helped make.
What part of improved diplomatic ties with Tehran and good diplomacy would have prevented the anti-aircraft missile from being fired (almost certainly mistakenly) at a Ukrainian airliner due to tensions stoked by a US assassination? I am not being facetious. Remove the sanctions and have great diplomatic relations with Iran. Trump still gets elected president, still assassinated the guy, and still causes the Iranian missile strike that put their AA batteries on high alert. The plane still gets shot down. Maybe there are fewer Canadians on that particular flight, though with airfare probably not, but the flight still gets shot down killing hundreds.
I totally agree.
Was just speaking with an Iranian colleague of mine and he knew a number of people on that flight. I'm honestly shocked by how much of a "small world" this event has shown us to have. Especially when it comes to immigrant communities.
I finally took a deep breath and went down the list. Thankfully no names I know there. Maybe someone second hand but now is not the time to be asking "Hey, how are you doing? Did anyone you know just get shot out of the sky?"
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
If you're unwilling to acknowledge something exists, you're very unlikely to make any changes that will have a different outcome. I have no desire to see things pushed to escalation all over again, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the status quo of no diplomacy and Sanctions is blameless in creating a situation ready to explode at the first bit of human malice or error.
You've provided zero reason why anything Canada has done has contributed to this problem in any way. This is all still some farcical silliness. Like people are desperate to find some reason why we must have something to do with these events.
Also, you should look at what happened with Europe, who actually have some decent amount of trade with Iran, and Iranian sanctions. Because, as ever, it's not as simple as just doing whatever you want.
You’re not wrong in that words are failing me to adequately make the case for better diplomacy.
So I hope you don’t mind if I use another’s from 2010 from the run up IIRC to Obama trying to improve relations with Iran
Undermining Communication and Increasing Misperception
In addition to information collection, one of the primary roles of an embassy is to serve as a conduit for communication between the sender and target state.29 Embassy officials constantly meet with both high-level members of the government and with citizens of their host country. Day-to-day communication is essential, not only to convey U.S. interests and understand host country concerns, but also to explain certain key U.S. decisions. Similarly, regular face-to-face communication in the target country also helps the sender state to forge relationships with people in the host state and develop these relationships over time.30
Diplomatic sanctions may hinder communication between the target and sender states, making miscommunication or misperception between the states more likely. Such sanctions create fewer formal channels of communication and contribute to increased resistance to other forms of state-to-state interaction in the name of isolation. Not only is communication reduced, but states are also more likely to be dismissive or uncertain about the nature of messages conveyed through alternative communication channels or third parties.
During the Korean conflict, for instance, U.S. uncertainty regarding the credibility of a message sent from China through a third-party ambassador may have influenced China's decision to enter the war. At the time, the United States and China did not have diplomatic relations. While Chinese preparations to intervene began prior to the U.S. crossing of the 38th parallel, the decision to intervene does not appear to have been fully finalized and implemented until after the Chinese perceived Soviet support to be secured and the Americans actually crossed the 38th parallel.31 The Chinese even issued a warning after an emergency meeting on October 2, 1950, stating, “The American forces are endeavoring to cross the 38th parallel and aim to expand the war. If they really want to do so, we will not sit still and do nothing. We will surely respond. Please inform your prime minister of this position.” 32
Diplomatic sanctions detract from U.S. public diplomacy to the target state's people.
The warning, however, was issued through an Indian diplomat, who served as the third-party communicator between China and the United States. According to Secretary of State Dean Acheson, the reports from the Indians were consistent on this issue, but were not taken to be completely credible as the United States thought that Ambassador Kavalam Pannikar of India, who conveyed the message, was not the most reliable messenger.33 The United States viewed Pannikar as a biased messenger and distrusted him due to his “leftist” political beliefs. David Halberstam writes that Acheson “viewed Pannikar as a mouthpiece for Beijing and not a serious diplomat.”34
More recently, the lack of diplomatic relations between Iran and the United States contributed to another situation in which a message was passed through a third party from the Iranians to the United States and ultimately ignored. In May 2003, the Foreign Ministry of Iran sent a fax to the Swiss ambassador in Tehran proposing a “grand bargain” between Iran and the United States. The document addressed terrorism, Iran's nuclear program, and Israel, calling for direct talks in addition to U.S.-Iran working groups on disarmament, regional security, and economic cooperation.35 According to multiple sources, the United States neither responded to the fax nor seriously considered the proposal.36 While it is unclear whether Iran and the United States could have made progress on any of the issues had the proposal been addressed, the diplomatic climate combined with the U.S. policy of isolating the regime took even considering the proposal off the table.
Canada’s sanctions are supporting what can be read in the above article that recognized sanctions increase tensions and make war more likely. We supported them and their kill-whoever-he-feels-like President in creating the conditions that led to these horrible, unnecessary tragic deaths.
We still too closely mirror the failed USA international policies that led to this, it won’t be the last unnecessary deaths if we keep letting our warhawks follow their warhawks to war, even if they aren’t elected their bungling of international relations when they were need to be redressed even if it ruffles American feathers. We could have been trying to bring them both back to peace talks instead of propping up this dictatorial President, even minimally, on the world stage.
You accuse me of being silly, but good diplomacy is a very serious matter, sometimes it means not bolstering the bad intentions of our allies by using more nuance than officially ignoring the enemies they helped make.
What part of improved diplomatic ties with Tehran and good diplomacy would have prevented the anti-aircraft missile from being fired (almost certainly mistakenly) at a Ukrainian airliner due to tensions stoked by a US assassination? I am not being facetious. Remove the sanctions and have great diplomatic relations with Iran. Trump still gets elected president, still assassinated the guy, and still causes the Iranian missile strike that put their AA batteries on high alert. The plane still gets shot down. Maybe there are fewer Canadians on that particular flight, though with airfare probably not, but the flight still gets shot down killing hundreds.
Yup. The fundamental problem is that there's no connection between any of this and what happened to that plane. You can say "Canada should improve it's relations with Iran" and abstractly that's fine but there's a real cost to that because we have to deal with the US and it's president and even without that, there's no obvious way in which that would have stopped anything that happened anyway. I mean, our current diplomatic stance with Iran doesn't even seem to be hurting us now in dealing with the aftermath of this tragedy. We can still just ring them up and be all "Yo, what's up dog?".
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
If you're unwilling to acknowledge something exists, you're very unlikely to make any changes that will have a different outcome. I have no desire to see things pushed to escalation all over again, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the status quo of no diplomacy and Sanctions is blameless in creating a situation ready to explode at the first bit of human malice or error.
You've provided zero reason why anything Canada has done has contributed to this problem in any way. This is all still some farcical silliness. Like people are desperate to find some reason why we must have something to do with these events.
Also, you should look at what happened with Europe, who actually have some decent amount of trade with Iran, and Iranian sanctions. Because, as ever, it's not as simple as just doing whatever you want.
You’re not wrong in that words are failing me to adequately make the case for better diplomacy.
So I hope you don’t mind if I use another’s from 2010 from the run up IIRC to Obama trying to improve relations with Iran
Undermining Communication and Increasing Misperception
In addition to information collection, one of the primary roles of an embassy is to serve as a conduit for communication between the sender and target state.29 Embassy officials constantly meet with both high-level members of the government and with citizens of their host country. Day-to-day communication is essential, not only to convey U.S. interests and understand host country concerns, but also to explain certain key U.S. decisions. Similarly, regular face-to-face communication in the target country also helps the sender state to forge relationships with people in the host state and develop these relationships over time.30
Diplomatic sanctions may hinder communication between the target and sender states, making miscommunication or misperception between the states more likely. Such sanctions create fewer formal channels of communication and contribute to increased resistance to other forms of state-to-state interaction in the name of isolation. Not only is communication reduced, but states are also more likely to be dismissive or uncertain about the nature of messages conveyed through alternative communication channels or third parties.
During the Korean conflict, for instance, U.S. uncertainty regarding the credibility of a message sent from China through a third-party ambassador may have influenced China's decision to enter the war. At the time, the United States and China did not have diplomatic relations. While Chinese preparations to intervene began prior to the U.S. crossing of the 38th parallel, the decision to intervene does not appear to have been fully finalized and implemented until after the Chinese perceived Soviet support to be secured and the Americans actually crossed the 38th parallel.31 The Chinese even issued a warning after an emergency meeting on October 2, 1950, stating, “The American forces are endeavoring to cross the 38th parallel and aim to expand the war. If they really want to do so, we will not sit still and do nothing. We will surely respond. Please inform your prime minister of this position.” 32
Diplomatic sanctions detract from U.S. public diplomacy to the target state's people.
The warning, however, was issued through an Indian diplomat, who served as the third-party communicator between China and the United States. According to Secretary of State Dean Acheson, the reports from the Indians were consistent on this issue, but were not taken to be completely credible as the United States thought that Ambassador Kavalam Pannikar of India, who conveyed the message, was not the most reliable messenger.33 The United States viewed Pannikar as a biased messenger and distrusted him due to his “leftist” political beliefs. David Halberstam writes that Acheson “viewed Pannikar as a mouthpiece for Beijing and not a serious diplomat.”34
More recently, the lack of diplomatic relations between Iran and the United States contributed to another situation in which a message was passed through a third party from the Iranians to the United States and ultimately ignored. In May 2003, the Foreign Ministry of Iran sent a fax to the Swiss ambassador in Tehran proposing a “grand bargain” between Iran and the United States. The document addressed terrorism, Iran's nuclear program, and Israel, calling for direct talks in addition to U.S.-Iran working groups on disarmament, regional security, and economic cooperation.35 According to multiple sources, the United States neither responded to the fax nor seriously considered the proposal.36 While it is unclear whether Iran and the United States could have made progress on any of the issues had the proposal been addressed, the diplomatic climate combined with the U.S. policy of isolating the regime took even considering the proposal off the table.
Canada’s sanctions are supporting what can be read in the above article that recognized sanctions increase tensions and make war more likely. We supported them and their kill-whoever-he-feels-like President in creating the conditions that led to these horrible, unnecessary tragic deaths.
We still too closely mirror the failed USA international policies that led to this, it won’t be the last unnecessary deaths if we keep letting our warhawks follow their warhawks to war, even if they aren’t elected their bungling of international relations when they were need to be redressed even if it ruffles American feathers. We could have been trying to bring them both back to peace talks instead of propping up this dictatorial President, even minimally, on the world stage.
You accuse me of being silly, but good diplomacy is a very serious matter, sometimes it means not bolstering the bad intentions of our allies by using more nuance than officially ignoring the enemies they helped make.
What part of improved diplomatic ties with Tehran and good diplomacy would have prevented the anti-aircraft missile from being fired (almost certainly mistakenly) at a Ukrainian airliner due to tensions stoked by a US assassination? I am not being facetious. Remove the sanctions and have great diplomatic relations with Iran. Trump still gets elected president, still assassinated the guy, and still causes the Iranian missile strike that put their AA batteries on high alert. The plane still gets shot down. Maybe there are fewer Canadians on that particular flight, though with airfare probably not, but the flight still gets shot down killing hundreds.
Ok, so you're not trying to facetious but you're still trying to set up a straw man here you know can be knocked down. Physically, nothing short of hitting the AA first stops it from being fired for any reason the operators come up with, diplomacy doesn't physically sabotage a nation's defensive apparatus, they managed this feat of incompetence all on their own. You already know the answer of the how a plane gets shot down.
But wouldn't a few Canadians less on that flight be worth it? Remember, its not like we don't have a history of using diplomatic resources to make a situation better, got turned into a movie Argo where the USA got to take most of the credit for the operation:
Sorry, but if we want to pretend that we have no impact on Americans by our own lending credibility by as IIRC was once called "a coalition of the willing" by joining them in Sanctions or that our polite words in an official capacity wouldn't smooth enmities over even a little bit - at the very least operations like that aren't possible now since we entered into Sanctions, those assets are gone. No intelligence gathering we verify ourselves with experienced diplomats and their agents, no subterfuge of safe houses, no issuing of documents in country, no diplomatic pouches, nothing.
I would rather Iranian-Canadians be able to shelter in a home we've vetted as a diplomatic asset or have in real time information on travel advisories based on good intel gathered locally in Tehran, instead of rushing on to commercial flights either too late or too soon, however you may judge it in hindsight, while the USA and Iran enter into hostilities for just the most banal of reasons. With diplomacy, its not impossible that our citizens could have been leaving by way of less high alert paths overland, by water, a completely different airport, or on a specially designated diplomatic charter flight.
How do I get through to you, my fellow Canadians, on just how fucking useful good diplomacy is as a tool in promoting peace over war, especially in this case?! I'm at a loss in response in this thread, that in light of all these things, we double down on the conservative policies that led us here in our grief rather than have a moment of self reflection. Our dead deserve better than this, damn it!
Yeah, if diplomacy was such that there were regular direct flights between Toronto and Tehran I'm not sure how that would have made some twenty-year-old in an air defense installation - who probably "knew" he had even odds of making it through the night alive should a US counterattack that we were all assuming was a certainty happen - any less twitchy.
It wasn't our fight, and making it more not our fight wasn't going to do much to that kind of outcome.
Thanks for the link and also the last question was hard, pick top 3 topics for primary and secondary school. All of these lead to better society, include them all please.
Just having a proper civics class would be huge, when I was in school they never really covered how government works, too busy teaching us "la revolution tranquille"
HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
just got this e-mail from my son's school district:
Dear VSB Community,
On behalf of the Vancouver School District, I am writing to acknowledge the tragic plane crash that occurred in Iran earlier this week, and the impact the crash has had on school communities. As has been reported, members of the Metro Vancouver and the BC community were among the victims of this tragedy. Our collective thoughts and sentiments are with those that have lost loved ones and others who have been directly impacted.
Given the reverberations of this event in our local communities and the intense media coverage, the District wants to provide as much support as possible. School counsellors and the District critical incident team are available to assist students as needed. Parents are asked to please contact your school principal should your child require support.
Resources for school staff to support students are also available on the ERASE website, Guidelines for Staff Dealing with Traumatic Events.
Anticipating that students may have a reaction to this event at home, we also wish to share with you resources available for parents that can help you in responding to your child’s concerns. Parents may find the BC Children’s Hospital grief and loss information helpful as well as the information accessible resources on the ERASE website
This tragedy is a profound and immeasurable loss. Our schools continue to be places of care and compassion for students, families and staff in the aftermath of such devastating events and always.
Sincerely,
Suzanne Hoffman
Superintendent of Schools
Vancouver School District
0
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ApogeeLancks In Every Game EverRegistered Userregular
Apparently a lady who works at my company was on that plane, along with her husband and child. I didn't know them, but... damn. This is the true cost of war, and it's never (well, almost never) the people making the decision who pay it.
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
If you're unwilling to acknowledge something exists, you're very unlikely to make any changes that will have a different outcome. I have no desire to see things pushed to escalation all over again, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the status quo of no diplomacy and Sanctions is blameless in creating a situation ready to explode at the first bit of human malice or error.
You've provided zero reason why anything Canada has done has contributed to this problem in any way. This is all still some farcical silliness. Like people are desperate to find some reason why we must have something to do with these events.
Also, you should look at what happened with Europe, who actually have some decent amount of trade with Iran, and Iranian sanctions. Because, as ever, it's not as simple as just doing whatever you want.
You’re not wrong in that words are failing me to adequately make the case for better diplomacy.
So I hope you don’t mind if I use another’s from 2010 from the run up IIRC to Obama trying to improve relations with Iran
Undermining Communication and Increasing Misperception
In addition to information collection, one of the primary roles of an embassy is to serve as a conduit for communication between the sender and target state.29 Embassy officials constantly meet with both high-level members of the government and with citizens of their host country. Day-to-day communication is essential, not only to convey U.S. interests and understand host country concerns, but also to explain certain key U.S. decisions. Similarly, regular face-to-face communication in the target country also helps the sender state to forge relationships with people in the host state and develop these relationships over time.30
Diplomatic sanctions may hinder communication between the target and sender states, making miscommunication or misperception between the states more likely. Such sanctions create fewer formal channels of communication and contribute to increased resistance to other forms of state-to-state interaction in the name of isolation. Not only is communication reduced, but states are also more likely to be dismissive or uncertain about the nature of messages conveyed through alternative communication channels or third parties.
During the Korean conflict, for instance, U.S. uncertainty regarding the credibility of a message sent from China through a third-party ambassador may have influenced China's decision to enter the war. At the time, the United States and China did not have diplomatic relations. While Chinese preparations to intervene began prior to the U.S. crossing of the 38th parallel, the decision to intervene does not appear to have been fully finalized and implemented until after the Chinese perceived Soviet support to be secured and the Americans actually crossed the 38th parallel.31 The Chinese even issued a warning after an emergency meeting on October 2, 1950, stating, “The American forces are endeavoring to cross the 38th parallel and aim to expand the war. If they really want to do so, we will not sit still and do nothing. We will surely respond. Please inform your prime minister of this position.” 32
Diplomatic sanctions detract from U.S. public diplomacy to the target state's people.
The warning, however, was issued through an Indian diplomat, who served as the third-party communicator between China and the United States. According to Secretary of State Dean Acheson, the reports from the Indians were consistent on this issue, but were not taken to be completely credible as the United States thought that Ambassador Kavalam Pannikar of India, who conveyed the message, was not the most reliable messenger.33 The United States viewed Pannikar as a biased messenger and distrusted him due to his “leftist” political beliefs. David Halberstam writes that Acheson “viewed Pannikar as a mouthpiece for Beijing and not a serious diplomat.”34
More recently, the lack of diplomatic relations between Iran and the United States contributed to another situation in which a message was passed through a third party from the Iranians to the United States and ultimately ignored. In May 2003, the Foreign Ministry of Iran sent a fax to the Swiss ambassador in Tehran proposing a “grand bargain” between Iran and the United States. The document addressed terrorism, Iran's nuclear program, and Israel, calling for direct talks in addition to U.S.-Iran working groups on disarmament, regional security, and economic cooperation.35 According to multiple sources, the United States neither responded to the fax nor seriously considered the proposal.36 While it is unclear whether Iran and the United States could have made progress on any of the issues had the proposal been addressed, the diplomatic climate combined with the U.S. policy of isolating the regime took even considering the proposal off the table.
Canada’s sanctions are supporting what can be read in the above article that recognized sanctions increase tensions and make war more likely. We supported them and their kill-whoever-he-feels-like President in creating the conditions that led to these horrible, unnecessary tragic deaths.
We still too closely mirror the failed USA international policies that led to this, it won’t be the last unnecessary deaths if we keep letting our warhawks follow their warhawks to war, even if they aren’t elected their bungling of international relations when they were need to be redressed even if it ruffles American feathers. We could have been trying to bring them both back to peace talks instead of propping up this dictatorial President, even minimally, on the world stage.
You accuse me of being silly, but good diplomacy is a very serious matter, sometimes it means not bolstering the bad intentions of our allies by using more nuance than officially ignoring the enemies they helped make.
What part of improved diplomatic ties with Tehran and good diplomacy would have prevented the anti-aircraft missile from being fired (almost certainly mistakenly) at a Ukrainian airliner due to tensions stoked by a US assassination? I am not being facetious. Remove the sanctions and have great diplomatic relations with Iran. Trump still gets elected president, still assassinated the guy, and still causes the Iranian missile strike that put their AA batteries on high alert. The plane still gets shot down. Maybe there are fewer Canadians on that particular flight, though with airfare probably not, but the flight still gets shot down killing hundreds.
Ok, so you're not trying to facetious but you're still trying to set up a straw man here you know can be knocked down. Physically, nothing short of hitting the AA first stops it from being fired for any reason the operators come up with, diplomacy doesn't physically sabotage a nation's defensive apparatus, they managed this feat of incompetence all on their own. You already know the answer of the how a plane gets shot down.
But wouldn't a few Canadians less on that flight be worth it? Remember, its not like we don't have a history of using diplomatic resources to make a situation better, got turned into a movie Argo where the USA got to take most of the credit for the operation:
Sorry, but if we want to pretend that we have no impact on Americans by our own lending credibility by as IIRC was once called "a coalition of the willing" by joining them in Sanctions or that our polite words in an official capacity wouldn't smooth enmities over even a little bit - at the very least operations like that aren't possible now since we entered into Sanctions, those assets are gone. No intelligence gathering we verify ourselves with experienced diplomats and their agents, no subterfuge of safe houses, no issuing of documents in country, no diplomatic pouches, nothing.
I would rather Iranian-Canadians be able to shelter in a home we've vetted as a diplomatic asset or have in real time information on travel advisories based on good intel gathered locally in Tehran, instead of rushing on to commercial flights either too late or too soon, however you may judge it in hindsight, while the USA and Iran enter into hostilities for just the most banal of reasons. With diplomacy, its not impossible that our citizens could have been leaving by way of less high alert paths overland, by water, a completely different airport, or on a specially designated diplomatic charter flight.
How do I get through to you, my fellow Canadians, on just how fucking useful good diplomacy is as a tool in promoting peace over war, especially in this case?! I'm at a loss in response in this thread, that in light of all these things, we double down on the conservative policies that led us here in our grief rather than have a moment of self reflection. Our dead deserve better than this, damn it!
On what are you basing the idea that they were fleeing Tehran out of concern for their safety rather than taking part in long planned travel arrangements on a regularly scheduled commercial flight and flightpath? Iran and Ukraine have strong diplomatic ties and foreign relations, with both having embassies in each other's capitals, if they were going to warn various flag airlines about not operating that night. Iran also has far more direct control over Tehran Airport and air traffic, which they could have grounded if they wanted to keep the skies clear that night. You could place as much blame on the weather in Kiev for this incident as Canadian foreign policy.
If we had regular direct flights there's a chance that it would be an air canada jet that got that particular takeoff slot and would have suffered the same fate
Thanks for the link and also the last question was hard, pick top 3 topics for primary and secondary school. All of these lead to better society, include them all please.
Just having a proper civics class would be huge, when I was in school they never really covered how government works, too busy teaching us "la revolution tranquille"
Man, if you learned about the Révolution Tranquille in school, your classes were already way ahead of mine. I had that crappy generic colonial history course that mentions no proper names, the most high-level and abstract sex-ed class imaginable, some pointless cooking/sowing/home-econ class, and I don't think I ever had a class on how government works.
If we had regular direct flights there's a chance that it would be an air canada jet that got that particular takeoff slot and would have suffered the same fate
As far as we know they didn't deliberately target the plane, so where it was going or what airline it was or the like was literally irrelevant.
Co worker came over from Iran with her mom and sister when she was 20. They had hoped to go back and see family and friends but that is clearly off the table. Sounds like they even knew some of the folks on the plane.
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
If you're unwilling to acknowledge something exists, you're very unlikely to make any changes that will have a different outcome. I have no desire to see things pushed to escalation all over again, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the status quo of no diplomacy and Sanctions is blameless in creating a situation ready to explode at the first bit of human malice or error.
You've provided zero reason why anything Canada has done has contributed to this problem in any way. This is all still some farcical silliness. Like people are desperate to find some reason why we must have something to do with these events.
Also, you should look at what happened with Europe, who actually have some decent amount of trade with Iran, and Iranian sanctions. Because, as ever, it's not as simple as just doing whatever you want.
You’re not wrong in that words are failing me to adequately make the case for better diplomacy.
So I hope you don’t mind if I use another’s from 2010 from the run up IIRC to Obama trying to improve relations with Iran
Undermining Communication and Increasing Misperception
In addition to information collection, one of the primary roles of an embassy is to serve as a conduit for communication between the sender and target state.29 Embassy officials constantly meet with both high-level members of the government and with citizens of their host country. Day-to-day communication is essential, not only to convey U.S. interests and understand host country concerns, but also to explain certain key U.S. decisions. Similarly, regular face-to-face communication in the target country also helps the sender state to forge relationships with people in the host state and develop these relationships over time.30
Diplomatic sanctions may hinder communication between the target and sender states, making miscommunication or misperception between the states more likely. Such sanctions create fewer formal channels of communication and contribute to increased resistance to other forms of state-to-state interaction in the name of isolation. Not only is communication reduced, but states are also more likely to be dismissive or uncertain about the nature of messages conveyed through alternative communication channels or third parties.
During the Korean conflict, for instance, U.S. uncertainty regarding the credibility of a message sent from China through a third-party ambassador may have influenced China's decision to enter the war. At the time, the United States and China did not have diplomatic relations. While Chinese preparations to intervene began prior to the U.S. crossing of the 38th parallel, the decision to intervene does not appear to have been fully finalized and implemented until after the Chinese perceived Soviet support to be secured and the Americans actually crossed the 38th parallel.31 The Chinese even issued a warning after an emergency meeting on October 2, 1950, stating, “The American forces are endeavoring to cross the 38th parallel and aim to expand the war. If they really want to do so, we will not sit still and do nothing. We will surely respond. Please inform your prime minister of this position.” 32
Diplomatic sanctions detract from U.S. public diplomacy to the target state's people.
The warning, however, was issued through an Indian diplomat, who served as the third-party communicator between China and the United States. According to Secretary of State Dean Acheson, the reports from the Indians were consistent on this issue, but were not taken to be completely credible as the United States thought that Ambassador Kavalam Pannikar of India, who conveyed the message, was not the most reliable messenger.33 The United States viewed Pannikar as a biased messenger and distrusted him due to his “leftist” political beliefs. David Halberstam writes that Acheson “viewed Pannikar as a mouthpiece for Beijing and not a serious diplomat.”34
More recently, the lack of diplomatic relations between Iran and the United States contributed to another situation in which a message was passed through a third party from the Iranians to the United States and ultimately ignored. In May 2003, the Foreign Ministry of Iran sent a fax to the Swiss ambassador in Tehran proposing a “grand bargain” between Iran and the United States. The document addressed terrorism, Iran's nuclear program, and Israel, calling for direct talks in addition to U.S.-Iran working groups on disarmament, regional security, and economic cooperation.35 According to multiple sources, the United States neither responded to the fax nor seriously considered the proposal.36 While it is unclear whether Iran and the United States could have made progress on any of the issues had the proposal been addressed, the diplomatic climate combined with the U.S. policy of isolating the regime took even considering the proposal off the table.
Canada’s sanctions are supporting what can be read in the above article that recognized sanctions increase tensions and make war more likely. We supported them and their kill-whoever-he-feels-like President in creating the conditions that led to these horrible, unnecessary tragic deaths.
We still too closely mirror the failed USA international policies that led to this, it won’t be the last unnecessary deaths if we keep letting our warhawks follow their warhawks to war, even if they aren’t elected their bungling of international relations when they were need to be redressed even if it ruffles American feathers. We could have been trying to bring them both back to peace talks instead of propping up this dictatorial President, even minimally, on the world stage.
You accuse me of being silly, but good diplomacy is a very serious matter, sometimes it means not bolstering the bad intentions of our allies by using more nuance than officially ignoring the enemies they helped make.
What part of improved diplomatic ties with Tehran and good diplomacy would have prevented the anti-aircraft missile from being fired (almost certainly mistakenly) at a Ukrainian airliner due to tensions stoked by a US assassination? I am not being facetious. Remove the sanctions and have great diplomatic relations with Iran. Trump still gets elected president, still assassinated the guy, and still causes the Iranian missile strike that put their AA batteries on high alert. The plane still gets shot down. Maybe there are fewer Canadians on that particular flight, though with airfare probably not, but the flight still gets shot down killing hundreds.
Ok, so you're not trying to facetious but you're still trying to set up a straw man here you know can be knocked down. Physically, nothing short of hitting the AA first stops it from being fired for any reason the operators come up with, diplomacy doesn't physically sabotage a nation's defensive apparatus, they managed this feat of incompetence all on their own. You already know the answer of the how a plane gets shot down.
But wouldn't a few Canadians less on that flight be worth it? Remember, its not like we don't have a history of using diplomatic resources to make a situation better, got turned into a movie Argo where the USA got to take most of the credit for the operation:
Sorry, but if we want to pretend that we have no impact on Americans by our own lending credibility by as IIRC was once called "a coalition of the willing" by joining them in Sanctions or that our polite words in an official capacity wouldn't smooth enmities over even a little bit - at the very least operations like that aren't possible now since we entered into Sanctions, those assets are gone. No intelligence gathering we verify ourselves with experienced diplomats and their agents, no subterfuge of safe houses, no issuing of documents in country, no diplomatic pouches, nothing.
I would rather Iranian-Canadians be able to shelter in a home we've vetted as a diplomatic asset or have in real time information on travel advisories based on good intel gathered locally in Tehran, instead of rushing on to commercial flights either too late or too soon, however you may judge it in hindsight, while the USA and Iran enter into hostilities for just the most banal of reasons. With diplomacy, its not impossible that our citizens could have been leaving by way of less high alert paths overland, by water, a completely different airport, or on a specially designated diplomatic charter flight.
How do I get through to you, my fellow Canadians, on just how fucking useful good diplomacy is as a tool in promoting peace over war, especially in this case?! I'm at a loss in response in this thread, that in light of all these things, we double down on the conservative policies that led us here in our grief rather than have a moment of self reflection. Our dead deserve better than this, damn it!
On what are you basing the idea that they were fleeing Tehran out of concern for their safety rather than taking part in long planned travel arrangements on a regularly scheduled commercial flight and flightpath? Iran and Ukraine have strong diplomatic ties and foreign relations, with both having embassies in each other's capitals, if they were going to warn various flag airlines about not operating that night. Iran also has far more direct control over Tehran Airport and air traffic, which they could have grounded if they wanted to keep the skies clear that night. You could place as much blame on the weather in Kiev for this incident as Canadian foreign policy.
Are you sure you're being serious? You sure you don't have some smarmy grin pasted across your face behind the keyboard you're typing this out on? Because it seems farcical that explaining right now on the off chance you are being serious, that I'm basing if off of that the world over general consensus was that Trump assassinating Iran's General was something they were definitely going to respond to with force. The whole country was pretty much on high alert from Jan 3 onward, with massive protests. Our own military forces in Iraq were repositioning out of the country on the assumption that the whole place was about to go hot.
I can and will blame Canada foreign policy for supporting American foreign policy led by Trump who is in turn following the advice of Republican propaganda and enjoying the support of Republican congressmen and senators who want fucking war with Iran and have told us as much for years. That's why Iran was on high alert for air born threats, USA's preferred method of dealing with targets they want destroyed.
If we really want to claim innocence in this matter, we shouldn't have been demonstrably in warhawk USA's corner this whole time over the last decade.
Its interesting you bring up weather, because I can and will blame massive fires on climate change impacts, also a situation that flared up because of decades long support of conservative policy not being properly countered.
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
If you're unwilling to acknowledge something exists, you're very unlikely to make any changes that will have a different outcome. I have no desire to see things pushed to escalation all over again, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the status quo of no diplomacy and Sanctions is blameless in creating a situation ready to explode at the first bit of human malice or error.
You've provided zero reason why anything Canada has done has contributed to this problem in any way. This is all still some farcical silliness. Like people are desperate to find some reason why we must have something to do with these events.
Also, you should look at what happened with Europe, who actually have some decent amount of trade with Iran, and Iranian sanctions. Because, as ever, it's not as simple as just doing whatever you want.
You’re not wrong in that words are failing me to adequately make the case for better diplomacy.
So I hope you don’t mind if I use another’s from 2010 from the run up IIRC to Obama trying to improve relations with Iran
Undermining Communication and Increasing Misperception
In addition to information collection, one of the primary roles of an embassy is to serve as a conduit for communication between the sender and target state.29 Embassy officials constantly meet with both high-level members of the government and with citizens of their host country. Day-to-day communication is essential, not only to convey U.S. interests and understand host country concerns, but also to explain certain key U.S. decisions. Similarly, regular face-to-face communication in the target country also helps the sender state to forge relationships with people in the host state and develop these relationships over time.30
Diplomatic sanctions may hinder communication between the target and sender states, making miscommunication or misperception between the states more likely. Such sanctions create fewer formal channels of communication and contribute to increased resistance to other forms of state-to-state interaction in the name of isolation. Not only is communication reduced, but states are also more likely to be dismissive or uncertain about the nature of messages conveyed through alternative communication channels or third parties.
During the Korean conflict, for instance, U.S. uncertainty regarding the credibility of a message sent from China through a third-party ambassador may have influenced China's decision to enter the war. At the time, the United States and China did not have diplomatic relations. While Chinese preparations to intervene began prior to the U.S. crossing of the 38th parallel, the decision to intervene does not appear to have been fully finalized and implemented until after the Chinese perceived Soviet support to be secured and the Americans actually crossed the 38th parallel.31 The Chinese even issued a warning after an emergency meeting on October 2, 1950, stating, “The American forces are endeavoring to cross the 38th parallel and aim to expand the war. If they really want to do so, we will not sit still and do nothing. We will surely respond. Please inform your prime minister of this position.” 32
Diplomatic sanctions detract from U.S. public diplomacy to the target state's people.
The warning, however, was issued through an Indian diplomat, who served as the third-party communicator between China and the United States. According to Secretary of State Dean Acheson, the reports from the Indians were consistent on this issue, but were not taken to be completely credible as the United States thought that Ambassador Kavalam Pannikar of India, who conveyed the message, was not the most reliable messenger.33 The United States viewed Pannikar as a biased messenger and distrusted him due to his “leftist” political beliefs. David Halberstam writes that Acheson “viewed Pannikar as a mouthpiece for Beijing and not a serious diplomat.”34
More recently, the lack of diplomatic relations between Iran and the United States contributed to another situation in which a message was passed through a third party from the Iranians to the United States and ultimately ignored. In May 2003, the Foreign Ministry of Iran sent a fax to the Swiss ambassador in Tehran proposing a “grand bargain” between Iran and the United States. The document addressed terrorism, Iran's nuclear program, and Israel, calling for direct talks in addition to U.S.-Iran working groups on disarmament, regional security, and economic cooperation.35 According to multiple sources, the United States neither responded to the fax nor seriously considered the proposal.36 While it is unclear whether Iran and the United States could have made progress on any of the issues had the proposal been addressed, the diplomatic climate combined with the U.S. policy of isolating the regime took even considering the proposal off the table.
Canada’s sanctions are supporting what can be read in the above article that recognized sanctions increase tensions and make war more likely. We supported them and their kill-whoever-he-feels-like President in creating the conditions that led to these horrible, unnecessary tragic deaths.
We still too closely mirror the failed USA international policies that led to this, it won’t be the last unnecessary deaths if we keep letting our warhawks follow their warhawks to war, even if they aren’t elected their bungling of international relations when they were need to be redressed even if it ruffles American feathers. We could have been trying to bring them both back to peace talks instead of propping up this dictatorial President, even minimally, on the world stage.
You accuse me of being silly, but good diplomacy is a very serious matter, sometimes it means not bolstering the bad intentions of our allies by using more nuance than officially ignoring the enemies they helped make.
What part of improved diplomatic ties with Tehran and good diplomacy would have prevented the anti-aircraft missile from being fired (almost certainly mistakenly) at a Ukrainian airliner due to tensions stoked by a US assassination? I am not being facetious. Remove the sanctions and have great diplomatic relations with Iran. Trump still gets elected president, still assassinated the guy, and still causes the Iranian missile strike that put their AA batteries on high alert. The plane still gets shot down. Maybe there are fewer Canadians on that particular flight, though with airfare probably not, but the flight still gets shot down killing hundreds.
Ok, so you're not trying to facetious but you're still trying to set up a straw man here you know can be knocked down. Physically, nothing short of hitting the AA first stops it from being fired for any reason the operators come up with, diplomacy doesn't physically sabotage a nation's defensive apparatus, they managed this feat of incompetence all on their own. You already know the answer of the how a plane gets shot down.
But wouldn't a few Canadians less on that flight be worth it? Remember, its not like we don't have a history of using diplomatic resources to make a situation better, got turned into a movie Argo where the USA got to take most of the credit for the operation:
Sorry, but if we want to pretend that we have no impact on Americans by our own lending credibility by as IIRC was once called "a coalition of the willing" by joining them in Sanctions or that our polite words in an official capacity wouldn't smooth enmities over even a little bit - at the very least operations like that aren't possible now since we entered into Sanctions, those assets are gone. No intelligence gathering we verify ourselves with experienced diplomats and their agents, no subterfuge of safe houses, no issuing of documents in country, no diplomatic pouches, nothing.
I would rather Iranian-Canadians be able to shelter in a home we've vetted as a diplomatic asset or have in real time information on travel advisories based on good intel gathered locally in Tehran, instead of rushing on to commercial flights either too late or too soon, however you may judge it in hindsight, while the USA and Iran enter into hostilities for just the most banal of reasons. With diplomacy, its not impossible that our citizens could have been leaving by way of less high alert paths overland, by water, a completely different airport, or on a specially designated diplomatic charter flight.
How do I get through to you, my fellow Canadians, on just how fucking useful good diplomacy is as a tool in promoting peace over war, especially in this case?! I'm at a loss in response in this thread, that in light of all these things, we double down on the conservative policies that led us here in our grief rather than have a moment of self reflection. Our dead deserve better than this, damn it!
On what are you basing the idea that they were fleeing Tehran out of concern for their safety rather than taking part in long planned travel arrangements on a regularly scheduled commercial flight and flightpath? Iran and Ukraine have strong diplomatic ties and foreign relations, with both having embassies in each other's capitals, if they were going to warn various flag airlines about not operating that night. Iran also has far more direct control over Tehran Airport and air traffic, which they could have grounded if they wanted to keep the skies clear that night. You could place as much blame on the weather in Kiev for this incident as Canadian foreign policy.
Are you sure you're being serious? You sure you don't have some smarmy grin pasted across your face behind the keyboard you're typing this out on?
Yes.
If I understand your contention: a Canadian foreign policy that fully reversed Harper's regarding Iran might have potentially resulted in a restoration of direct flights between Tehran and Toronto. Which might have potentially drawn Canadian passengers off the doomed AUI flight, depending on airfare versus layover &c. decisions among passengers. And which might have potentially been placed into a different takeoff slot to not pass in front of the same AA battery at that same time. (Which would have resulted in an Air Canada flight being shot down instead, it's not as though they were intentionally targeting a commercial airline) And thereby saving Canadian lives by having fewer on Flight 752.
Because that is what strikes me as four thin reeds duct taped together, and I can't see a more direct path between improved Canadian diplomacy and fewer souls onboard.
They were on that ukrainian flight because there are no direct flights between Iran and Canada. These flights stopped in 2012 when the Harper gov't cut diplomatic ties with Iran. Which means the blood of 63 canadians is on the hands of Harper for this, and of Trudeau for not reversing this policy and resuming diplomatic relations with Iran over the past four years.
This makes me furious at the Trudeau Liberals. They've been acting like caretakers for the CPC for their entire first mandate, keeping the alt-right status quo instead of restauring our country and repairing the harm Harper did.
I wanted to reply to this last night and talk about how ridiculous of a post it was but couldn't find the words, I'm glad others have picked up the ball.
If you want to be mad at Trudeau for not doing "more" to combat the shit Harper passed, that's one thing, but pick your battles dude.
No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
If you're unwilling to acknowledge something exists, you're very unlikely to make any changes that will have a different outcome. I have no desire to see things pushed to escalation all over again, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the status quo of no diplomacy and Sanctions is blameless in creating a situation ready to explode at the first bit of human malice or error.
You've provided zero reason why anything Canada has done has contributed to this problem in any way. This is all still some farcical silliness. Like people are desperate to find some reason why we must have something to do with these events.
Also, you should look at what happened with Europe, who actually have some decent amount of trade with Iran, and Iranian sanctions. Because, as ever, it's not as simple as just doing whatever you want.
You’re not wrong in that words are failing me to adequately make the case for better diplomacy.
So I hope you don’t mind if I use another’s from 2010 from the run up IIRC to Obama trying to improve relations with Iran
Undermining Communication and Increasing Misperception
In addition to information collection, one of the primary roles of an embassy is to serve as a conduit for communication between the sender and target state.29 Embassy officials constantly meet with both high-level members of the government and with citizens of their host country. Day-to-day communication is essential, not only to convey U.S. interests and understand host country concerns, but also to explain certain key U.S. decisions. Similarly, regular face-to-face communication in the target country also helps the sender state to forge relationships with people in the host state and develop these relationships over time.30
Diplomatic sanctions may hinder communication between the target and sender states, making miscommunication or misperception between the states more likely. Such sanctions create fewer formal channels of communication and contribute to increased resistance to other forms of state-to-state interaction in the name of isolation. Not only is communication reduced, but states are also more likely to be dismissive or uncertain about the nature of messages conveyed through alternative communication channels or third parties.
During the Korean conflict, for instance, U.S. uncertainty regarding the credibility of a message sent from China through a third-party ambassador may have influenced China's decision to enter the war. At the time, the United States and China did not have diplomatic relations. While Chinese preparations to intervene began prior to the U.S. crossing of the 38th parallel, the decision to intervene does not appear to have been fully finalized and implemented until after the Chinese perceived Soviet support to be secured and the Americans actually crossed the 38th parallel.31 The Chinese even issued a warning after an emergency meeting on October 2, 1950, stating, “The American forces are endeavoring to cross the 38th parallel and aim to expand the war. If they really want to do so, we will not sit still and do nothing. We will surely respond. Please inform your prime minister of this position.” 32
Diplomatic sanctions detract from U.S. public diplomacy to the target state's people.
The warning, however, was issued through an Indian diplomat, who served as the third-party communicator between China and the United States. According to Secretary of State Dean Acheson, the reports from the Indians were consistent on this issue, but were not taken to be completely credible as the United States thought that Ambassador Kavalam Pannikar of India, who conveyed the message, was not the most reliable messenger.33 The United States viewed Pannikar as a biased messenger and distrusted him due to his “leftist” political beliefs. David Halberstam writes that Acheson “viewed Pannikar as a mouthpiece for Beijing and not a serious diplomat.”34
More recently, the lack of diplomatic relations between Iran and the United States contributed to another situation in which a message was passed through a third party from the Iranians to the United States and ultimately ignored. In May 2003, the Foreign Ministry of Iran sent a fax to the Swiss ambassador in Tehran proposing a “grand bargain” between Iran and the United States. The document addressed terrorism, Iran's nuclear program, and Israel, calling for direct talks in addition to U.S.-Iran working groups on disarmament, regional security, and economic cooperation.35 According to multiple sources, the United States neither responded to the fax nor seriously considered the proposal.36 While it is unclear whether Iran and the United States could have made progress on any of the issues had the proposal been addressed, the diplomatic climate combined with the U.S. policy of isolating the regime took even considering the proposal off the table.
Canada’s sanctions are supporting what can be read in the above article that recognized sanctions increase tensions and make war more likely. We supported them and their kill-whoever-he-feels-like President in creating the conditions that led to these horrible, unnecessary tragic deaths.
We still too closely mirror the failed USA international policies that led to this, it won’t be the last unnecessary deaths if we keep letting our warhawks follow their warhawks to war, even if they aren’t elected their bungling of international relations when they were need to be redressed even if it ruffles American feathers. We could have been trying to bring them both back to peace talks instead of propping up this dictatorial President, even minimally, on the world stage.
You accuse me of being silly, but good diplomacy is a very serious matter, sometimes it means not bolstering the bad intentions of our allies by using more nuance than officially ignoring the enemies they helped make.
What part of improved diplomatic ties with Tehran and good diplomacy would have prevented the anti-aircraft missile from being fired (almost certainly mistakenly) at a Ukrainian airliner due to tensions stoked by a US assassination? I am not being facetious. Remove the sanctions and have great diplomatic relations with Iran. Trump still gets elected president, still assassinated the guy, and still causes the Iranian missile strike that put their AA batteries on high alert. The plane still gets shot down. Maybe there are fewer Canadians on that particular flight, though with airfare probably not, but the flight still gets shot down killing hundreds.
Ok, so you're not trying to facetious but you're still trying to set up a straw man here you know can be knocked down. Physically, nothing short of hitting the AA first stops it from being fired for any reason the operators come up with, diplomacy doesn't physically sabotage a nation's defensive apparatus, they managed this feat of incompetence all on their own. You already know the answer of the how a plane gets shot down.
But wouldn't a few Canadians less on that flight be worth it? Remember, its not like we don't have a history of using diplomatic resources to make a situation better, got turned into a movie Argo where the USA got to take most of the credit for the operation:
Sorry, but if we want to pretend that we have no impact on Americans by our own lending credibility by as IIRC was once called "a coalition of the willing" by joining them in Sanctions or that our polite words in an official capacity wouldn't smooth enmities over even a little bit - at the very least operations like that aren't possible now since we entered into Sanctions, those assets are gone. No intelligence gathering we verify ourselves with experienced diplomats and their agents, no subterfuge of safe houses, no issuing of documents in country, no diplomatic pouches, nothing.
I would rather Iranian-Canadians be able to shelter in a home we've vetted as a diplomatic asset or have in real time information on travel advisories based on good intel gathered locally in Tehran, instead of rushing on to commercial flights either too late or too soon, however you may judge it in hindsight, while the USA and Iran enter into hostilities for just the most banal of reasons. With diplomacy, its not impossible that our citizens could have been leaving by way of less high alert paths overland, by water, a completely different airport, or on a specially designated diplomatic charter flight.
How do I get through to you, my fellow Canadians, on just how fucking useful good diplomacy is as a tool in promoting peace over war, especially in this case?! I'm at a loss in response in this thread, that in light of all these things, we double down on the conservative policies that led us here in our grief rather than have a moment of self reflection. Our dead deserve better than this, damn it!
On what are you basing the idea that they were fleeing Tehran out of concern for their safety rather than taking part in long planned travel arrangements on a regularly scheduled commercial flight and flightpath? Iran and Ukraine have strong diplomatic ties and foreign relations, with both having embassies in each other's capitals, if they were going to warn various flag airlines about not operating that night. Iran also has far more direct control over Tehran Airport and air traffic, which they could have grounded if they wanted to keep the skies clear that night. You could place as much blame on the weather in Kiev for this incident as Canadian foreign policy.
Are you sure you're being serious? You sure you don't have some smarmy grin pasted across your face behind the keyboard you're typing this out on?
Yes.
If I understand your contention: a Canadian foreign policy that fully reversed Harper's regarding Iran might have potentially resulted in a restoration of direct flights between Tehran and Toronto. Which might have potentially drawn Canadian passengers off the doomed AUI flight, depending on airfare versus layover &c. decisions among passengers. And which might have potentially been placed into a different takeoff slot to not pass in front of the same AA battery at that same time. (Which would have resulted in an Air Canada flight being shot down instead, it's not as though they were intentionally targeting a commercial airline) And thereby saving Canadian lives by having fewer on Flight 752.
Because that is what strikes me as four thin reeds duct taped together, and I can't see a more direct path between improved Canadian diplomacy and fewer souls onboard.
Then its clear to me you don't understand my contention.
My contention is that the USA wouldn't feel as secure in the build up to this situation of high, alert in which in similar high alerts tragedies have happened before and it just happened again, if the USA had not had a "coalition of the willing" in not just occupying Iraq, regime change, and fighting ISIS because of the failure of the previous deliberately bad intel to justify the case for war, a time period in which various political propaganda in USA has been making threats about the need to go to war with Iran too, but also in us closing embassy's and more from 2012 onwards in support of USA Sanctions against Iran rather than supporting Obama's deal and trying to calm tensions or at the very least have assets that could gather unfiltered intel of the situation on the ground.
To only narrow the contention down to the tragic Ukranian flight is too narrow. I've said it before and I'll say it again, under the conditions that have have built up over years, the incompetent actions of the Iran defenses could have happened to anyone's plane, it being Air Canada from that specific airport wouldn't necessarily have made a difference - Trump not assassinating Iran's General would have made the difference or us having a chance to talk to Iran directly to be even slightly less High Alert could have made the difference or barring that another route of exit from another airport, ferry, bus, etc for those destined for Canada other than through the Iraq-Iran border air-land-sea conflict zone because we have the capability of asking Iran for permission to exit the conflict zone by an alternate route.
If you think Canadian diplomacy and foreign policy has no impact whatsoever on recent history, its not just a disregard for the good competent work our diplomats do within the USA itself like when the trade talks were on, its also defers our foreign policy to being led by Trumps situational awareness in other portions of the world which is next to nil, he's admitted doesn't read the security briefings his people prepare for him, others have said they said they keep secrets from him because he and his administration leak like a sieve and he's way more concerned with pleasing Republican Senators in the lead up to his Impeachment Proceedings. Aren't we far enough down the road to war that we see this just leads to potentially more planes being shot out of the sky?
The removal of diplomacy is the removal of the awareness and understanding of non-violent options, let alone the assets for the implementation of non-violent options. That is my contention in a nutshell, that the lack of options that are less likely to lead to war with Iran vs Anyone haven't been in place for Canada since 2012.
Posts
I want to believe this is true, but if Iran leadership is interested in sustaining the appearance that they're keeping their heads cool during this whole thing, they need to release a statement real quick.
Just to paste in my explanation from that thread of how this sort of thing can happen:
Consider being a SAM site operator in Iran at this point. You know that AA is going to be the first thing taken out by incoming US planes, so that they can clear a path for the bigger, less stealthy aircraft. The first wave of aircraft often use missiles that specifically look for ground-based radar and home in on it, so you can only run your radar in short bursts to avoid being a big 'shoot here' sign. Bear in mind that transponder info like that of a civilian airliner can easily be spoofed, so you can't trust the 'I'm a 737, don't shoot me' sign on any aircraft out there.
So, our hypothetical solider just happens to be along the flight path of the 737 that just took off. He turns on his radar at just the right moment to see a big aircraft heading right for him - it looks like it was skimming along the ground under radar and is now lifting up high to drop a payload and run. He's got seconds to figure out what to do - if he does nothing and it's a US military craft, he's sitting next to a giant radar emitter and he's toast. All it takes is a moment of self-preservation panic to press fire.
tl;dr don't put the people with missiles on high alert when you have civilian traffic flying around as though nothing is wrong.
*or otherwise intimidate others out of a fight, but it turns out nation states are a lot like animals in how they act and their interests...
Any time I think I can't hate the guy more ...
Hey now, let's not go mind reading. He might have done it just to be a dick.
(I think that the strike might have been the single most disastrous decision of his presidency, if not... well, I don't know, I'm having trouble thinking of another presidential mistake of this magnitude.)
Absolutely.
If the current apparent narrative turns out to be the truth, then Iran absolutely needs to be held to account for that and respond appropriately.
However, if we agree that this event was the result of a horrible accident that took place as a result of heightened paranoia and nerves, we cannot forget that there is a reason why Iran may have been feeling nervous and paranoid.
That's pretty much 100% proof it was a missile
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No, it is not ridiculous. This is us learning to pick our battles better as well.
Maybe its just that we've been pouring over all the details that lead to the point of Trump The Tyrant fucking up so bad, but its pretty clear at this point that creating the scenario where horrifying mistakes of Iran operators at high alert running soviet era technology involved Trump government tearing up Obama government deals to hit them with Sanctions again that cripple their banking and Harper government supporting that situation with Sanctions and removing diplomats that Trudeau government wasn't willing to embarrass the USA by reversing. Sanctions put their back up against the wall, we aren't blameless in putting those in place. Economic attacks are still an attack, we should know better after 2008, when credit gets fucked with we all suffer from lost opportunities and when Trump threw tariffs at us and called us, their longest and most steadfast allies, a national security risk, people lost jobs - we weren't exactly feeling like being polite with the USA then either. Sanctions are 100 times worse than that.
Its devastating that it was a civilian flight with us on it but this could have happened to anyone trying to exit that war zone, hopefully this grieving process will help sober up some of us and help us realize where we need to improve. We need to acknowledge our own responsibility in contributing to this, even if its brutally blatantly the USA's fault for drafting up orders to put in front of Trump on pulling the trigger on the assassination under a diplomatic white flag that would antagonize anyone into high alert, let alone Iranians.
We have. We have none.
At the end of the day we're a small fish next to a very big shark and we have to play the game with that in mind.
If you're unwilling to acknowledge something exists, you're very unlikely to make any changes that will have a different outcome. I have no desire to see things pushed to escalation all over again, so we're just going to have to agree to disagree that the status quo of no diplomacy and Sanctions is blameless in creating a situation ready to explode at the first bit of human malice or error.
You've provided zero reason why anything Canada has done has contributed to this problem in any way. This is all still some farcical silliness. Like people are desperate to find some reason why we must have something to do with these events.
Also, you should look at what happened with Europe, who actually have some decent amount of trade with Iran, and Iranian sanctions. Because, as ever, it's not as simple as just doing whatever you want.
Even if we had Amazing, top notch 100% diplomatic relations it still would have done squat.
They blew up that plane because of a series of events triggered by the leader of the most powerful military in the word started a chain reaction of events because he's a moron.
Our relationship with Iran was 0% a contributing factor. Hell, most of the folks on there had Iranian passports....
Was just speaking with an Iranian colleague of mine and he knew a number of people on that flight. I'm honestly shocked by how much of a "small world" this event has shown us to have. Especially when it comes to immigrant communities.
Perhaps I can interest you in my meager selection of pins?
You’re not wrong in that words are failing me to adequately make the case for better diplomacy.
So I hope you don’t mind if I use another’s from 2010 from the run up IIRC to Obama trying to improve relations with Iran
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0163660X.2010.492341
Canada’s sanctions are supporting what can be read in the above article that recognized sanctions increase tensions and make war more likely. We supported them and their kill-whoever-he-feels-like President in creating the conditions that led to these horrible, unnecessary tragic deaths.
We still too closely mirror the failed USA international policies that led to this, it won’t be the last unnecessary deaths if we keep letting our warhawks follow their warhawks to war, even if they aren’t elected their bungling of international relations when they were need to be redressed even if it ruffles American feathers. We could have been trying to bring them both back to peace talks instead of propping up this dictatorial President, even minimally, on the world stage.
You accuse me of being silly, but good diplomacy is a very serious matter, sometimes it means not bolstering the bad intentions of our allies by using more nuance than officially ignoring the enemies they helped make.
What part of improved diplomatic ties with Tehran and good diplomacy would have prevented the anti-aircraft missile from being fired (almost certainly mistakenly) at a Ukrainian airliner due to tensions stoked by a US assassination? I am not being facetious. Remove the sanctions and have great diplomatic relations with Iran. Trump still gets elected president, still assassinated the guy, and still causes the Iranian missile strike that put their AA batteries on high alert. The plane still gets shot down. Maybe there are fewer Canadians on that particular flight, though with airfare probably not, but the flight still gets shot down killing hundreds.
http://www.education.gouv.qc.ca/parents-et-tuteurs/consultations-sur-le-programme-detudes-ethique-et-culture-religieuse/
I finally took a deep breath and went down the list. Thankfully no names I know there. Maybe someone second hand but now is not the time to be asking "Hey, how are you doing? Did anyone you know just get shot out of the sky?"
Yup. The fundamental problem is that there's no connection between any of this and what happened to that plane. You can say "Canada should improve it's relations with Iran" and abstractly that's fine but there's a real cost to that because we have to deal with the US and it's president and even without that, there's no obvious way in which that would have stopped anything that happened anyway. I mean, our current diplomatic stance with Iran doesn't even seem to be hurting us now in dealing with the aftermath of this tragedy. We can still just ring them up and be all "Yo, what's up dog?".
Ok, so you're not trying to facetious but you're still trying to set up a straw man here you know can be knocked down. Physically, nothing short of hitting the AA first stops it from being fired for any reason the operators come up with, diplomacy doesn't physically sabotage a nation's defensive apparatus, they managed this feat of incompetence all on their own. You already know the answer of the how a plane gets shot down.
But wouldn't a few Canadians less on that flight be worth it? Remember, its not like we don't have a history of using diplomatic resources to make a situation better, got turned into a movie Argo where the USA got to take most of the credit for the operation:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Caper
Sorry, but if we want to pretend that we have no impact on Americans by our own lending credibility by as IIRC was once called "a coalition of the willing" by joining them in Sanctions or that our polite words in an official capacity wouldn't smooth enmities over even a little bit - at the very least operations like that aren't possible now since we entered into Sanctions, those assets are gone. No intelligence gathering we verify ourselves with experienced diplomats and their agents, no subterfuge of safe houses, no issuing of documents in country, no diplomatic pouches, nothing.
I would rather Iranian-Canadians be able to shelter in a home we've vetted as a diplomatic asset or have in real time information on travel advisories based on good intel gathered locally in Tehran, instead of rushing on to commercial flights either too late or too soon, however you may judge it in hindsight, while the USA and Iran enter into hostilities for just the most banal of reasons. With diplomacy, its not impossible that our citizens could have been leaving by way of less high alert paths overland, by water, a completely different airport, or on a specially designated diplomatic charter flight.
How do I get through to you, my fellow Canadians, on just how fucking useful good diplomacy is as a tool in promoting peace over war, especially in this case?! I'm at a loss in response in this thread, that in light of all these things, we double down on the conservative policies that led us here in our grief rather than have a moment of self reflection. Our dead deserve better than this, damn it!
It wasn't our fight, and making it more not our fight wasn't going to do much to that kind of outcome.
Thanks for the link and also the last question was hard, pick top 3 topics for primary and secondary school. All of these lead to better society, include them all please.
Just having a proper civics class would be huge, when I was in school they never really covered how government works, too busy teaching us "la revolution tranquille"
On what are you basing the idea that they were fleeing Tehran out of concern for their safety rather than taking part in long planned travel arrangements on a regularly scheduled commercial flight and flightpath? Iran and Ukraine have strong diplomatic ties and foreign relations, with both having embassies in each other's capitals, if they were going to warn various flag airlines about not operating that night. Iran also has far more direct control over Tehran Airport and air traffic, which they could have grounded if they wanted to keep the skies clear that night. You could place as much blame on the weather in Kiev for this incident as Canadian foreign policy.
Most of them were working on a Canadian academic calendar and coming back just before classes started up again.
Man, if you learned about the Révolution Tranquille in school, your classes were already way ahead of mine. I had that crappy generic colonial history course that mentions no proper names, the most high-level and abstract sex-ed class imaginable, some pointless cooking/sowing/home-econ class, and I don't think I ever had a class on how government works.
As far as we know they didn't deliberately target the plane, so where it was going or what airline it was or the like was literally irrelevant.
Are you sure you're being serious? You sure you don't have some smarmy grin pasted across your face behind the keyboard you're typing this out on? Because it seems farcical that explaining right now on the off chance you are being serious, that I'm basing if off of that the world over general consensus was that Trump assassinating Iran's General was something they were definitely going to respond to with force. The whole country was pretty much on high alert from Jan 3 onward, with massive protests. Our own military forces in Iraq were repositioning out of the country on the assumption that the whole place was about to go hot.
I can and will blame Canada foreign policy for supporting American foreign policy led by Trump who is in turn following the advice of Republican propaganda and enjoying the support of Republican congressmen and senators who want fucking war with Iran and have told us as much for years. That's why Iran was on high alert for air born threats, USA's preferred method of dealing with targets they want destroyed.
If we really want to claim innocence in this matter, we shouldn't have been demonstrably in warhawk USA's corner this whole time over the last decade.
Its interesting you bring up weather, because I can and will blame massive fires on climate change impacts, also a situation that flared up because of decades long support of conservative policy not being properly countered.
Yes.
If I understand your contention: a Canadian foreign policy that fully reversed Harper's regarding Iran might have potentially resulted in a restoration of direct flights between Tehran and Toronto. Which might have potentially drawn Canadian passengers off the doomed AUI flight, depending on airfare versus layover &c. decisions among passengers. And which might have potentially been placed into a different takeoff slot to not pass in front of the same AA battery at that same time. (Which would have resulted in an Air Canada flight being shot down instead, it's not as though they were intentionally targeting a commercial airline) And thereby saving Canadian lives by having fewer on Flight 752.
Because that is what strikes me as four thin reeds duct taped together, and I can't see a more direct path between improved Canadian diplomacy and fewer souls onboard.
Then its clear to me you don't understand my contention.
My contention is that the USA wouldn't feel as secure in the build up to this situation of high, alert in which in similar high alerts tragedies have happened before and it just happened again, if the USA had not had a "coalition of the willing" in not just occupying Iraq, regime change, and fighting ISIS because of the failure of the previous deliberately bad intel to justify the case for war, a time period in which various political propaganda in USA has been making threats about the need to go to war with Iran too, but also in us closing embassy's and more from 2012 onwards in support of USA Sanctions against Iran rather than supporting Obama's deal and trying to calm tensions or at the very least have assets that could gather unfiltered intel of the situation on the ground.
To only narrow the contention down to the tragic Ukranian flight is too narrow. I've said it before and I'll say it again, under the conditions that have have built up over years, the incompetent actions of the Iran defenses could have happened to anyone's plane, it being Air Canada from that specific airport wouldn't necessarily have made a difference - Trump not assassinating Iran's General would have made the difference or us having a chance to talk to Iran directly to be even slightly less High Alert could have made the difference or barring that another route of exit from another airport, ferry, bus, etc for those destined for Canada other than through the Iraq-Iran border air-land-sea conflict zone because we have the capability of asking Iran for permission to exit the conflict zone by an alternate route.
If you think Canadian diplomacy and foreign policy has no impact whatsoever on recent history, its not just a disregard for the good competent work our diplomats do within the USA itself like when the trade talks were on, its also defers our foreign policy to being led by Trumps situational awareness in other portions of the world which is next to nil, he's admitted doesn't read the security briefings his people prepare for him, others have said they said they keep secrets from him because he and his administration leak like a sieve and he's way more concerned with pleasing Republican Senators in the lead up to his Impeachment Proceedings. Aren't we far enough down the road to war that we see this just leads to potentially more planes being shot out of the sky?
The removal of diplomacy is the removal of the awareness and understanding of non-violent options, let alone the assets for the implementation of non-violent options. That is my contention in a nutshell, that the lack of options that are less likely to lead to war with Iran vs Anyone haven't been in place for Canada since 2012.
This may seem crazy, but it's entirely possible to simultaneously understand and reject your contention.
hooboy for a second there I thought i was talking to my wife