Let's all just agree that 85% of what we know about Star Wars resides mostly in our own heads, and may or may not overlap with what other people know about Star Wars, or even reality.
I honestly think that this is some of the magic of the OT that was ground to dust by the long lag time of the prequels and then sequels. You had all these theories and these movies had a lot of depth to them so there's room for an interesting discussion of Vader's motives, and then because there was so much time between movies there was a lot of time for theories to become deeply held beliefs that were then contradicted (poorly).
If the PT and ST were released on a more MCU timescale, you wouldn't have had a lot of time to be like "Wow the Clone Wars! That must have been Obi-Wan fighting his double to a standstill and full of intrigue because who was real and who was a clone" and then you find out "oh it's just a fuckton of Boba Fetts. Who gives a shit?"
It's like the difference between watching a show as it comes out and binge watching it on Netflix. When you binge it you can paper over the flaws because you're a more passive actor and the questions are immediately answered. When you have time to think about it the flaws become more relevant and the disappointments hurt much more. I bet there are a lot of people watching Battlestar Galactica, Lost, or How I Met Your Mother for the first time now that don't understand why I am so bothered by how those shows ended. I was invested. What WAS the goal of the Cylons? How did it all intertwine with the religion and prophecies of the colonists? What the hell was the Six that Baltar saw? And then I ended up being strung along for like five years with that crap ending. Nowadays you'll finish that shit in a week and not be too bothered.
And now everything in Star Wars is so codified, there's no mystery. Every character named with a backstory. The OT presented a galaxy of wonder, you knew a small slice of a massive whole teeming with possibilities. The current setting has no possibilities. It's the same shit, over and over.
I think the Mandalorian show this to not really be true at all. The movies have painted a setting with lots of interesting times and places. Now lets get some solid character dramas in there without any direct relationship to the Skywalkers, et al, and play in this space we have.
I think the problem is, we all have +-30 years of headcannon in this galaxy. The more official tentpole (film) media we get that codifies big huge important details, the less room we have for the stories we've been dreaming.
I still want to see a live action Rogue Squadron series set sometime between ESB and RotJ. Make Soontir Fel be the big bad
RotJ has some really high highs, but also really low lows, and I think it's the one movie of the OT that you can point to as having really obvious structural issues. Like anything that happens on Endor just kills the pace of the movie dead. It's like time stands still. And that's not a stealth dig at the Ewoks, who honestly are fine except for that one battle which is pretty silly.
I think the Ewoks used to get all the blame for RotJ’s flaws, but you’re right, it’s a lot more about the weird structure of things overall.
I actually think that little moment where one Ewok is killed and another fails to wake him up is a highlight of the movie. It gets at the tonal weirdness of the whole thing, but as a standalone moment it’s genuinely heartbreaking - they get played for jokes otherwise, and the movie takes a real moment to flesh them out.
The pacing of the new movies would never allow that.
Or place so much emphasis on a white folks-meet the natives storyline in the first place, so maybe we’ll call that particular example a wash.
Just going by the movies, Palpatine was never actually shown to be the 'execute for single fuckup' type. Vader was.
And even he kept it for what sounded like repeated fuckups, or managing to lose a single ship because Star Destroyers don't have back windows.
Yeah, this whole "execute failures" thing seems less of an Empire thing and more of a Vader thing, judging by the OT at least. Shit, in ANH Tarkin is all "Goddammit, stop choking my officers Vader".
"The Emperor is not as forgiving as I am."
Look, if you've never been a middle manager who's shut down an argument by saying "Look, I get it, but don't argue with me about this, it comes from corporate/the VP/the client/the government/etc and they'll have our asses otherwise", even if you know those authorities would likely do nothing anyway -- you're a better person than I am.
I would add that I think RotJ works like gangbusters despite all these flaws. The cast is in top form and most of the moment to moment sequences are entertaining and engaging. It’s mostly when looking at the bones that I see how awkward the whole thing is.
In that sense it reminds me the most of the sequel movies, and lays the groundwork for the prequels’ bad habits. Overexplaining, taking the Force from something ambiguous and spiritual to something more like being a genetic superhero, connecting everything to everything else, repeating elements of previous films instead of inventing new things.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
I mean ROTJ was always the worst one but that's because A New Hope is amazing, it's The Hero's Journey made perfect in a sci-fi setting. It's also the most "fun" movie of the trilogy in my opinion. It's lighter and more triumphant throughout. And ESB is the dark one that has maybe the most iconic twist in cinema history and has the incredibly iconic Battle of Hoth and Luke's first lightsaber fight. It's gonna be hard for another movie to keep up with it.
I think you can look at the Luke/Vader thing and see the ways it would have been fine. The problem is that the other side of the story, the Rebellion vs Empire bit, has few real good ideas in the film and the entire "Rescue Han" sequence ends up taking up a bunch of time at the start of the film while not doing a ton of work towards either finale. (it does some, but again mostly towards Luke's story and not the rest of it)
That seems sensible to me, which makes it all the more baffling that Lucas wanted to extend the Jabba's Palace thing with some singing and dancing. The Luke/Vader parts are unquestionably the best part of the last movie and it just feels like everything else is just giving everyone else something to do and they seem super busy on top of that.
I'm not sure how you restructure it though. Maybe just make it so the ground battle and the space battle aren't simultaneous? Han blows the generator, the Rebel fleet jumps in. Or you just make everything one big space battle and cut the ground battle entirely?
Edit: ROTJ is the bronze medal. Yes, you are the worst of the three, but to get a bronze medal at the Olympics is still one hell of a fucking accomplishment.
I mean ROTJ was always the worst one but that's because A New Hope is amazing, it's The Hero's Journey made perfect in a sci-fi setting. It's also the most "fun" movie of the trilogy in my opinion. It's lighter and more triumphant throughout. And ESB is the dark one that has maybe the most iconic twist in cinema history and has the incredibly iconic Battle of Hoth and Luke's first lightsaber fight. It's gonna be hard for another movie to keep up with it.
I think you can look at the Luke/Vader thing and see the ways it would have been fine. The problem is that the other side of the story, the Rebellion vs Empire bit, has few real good ideas in the film and the entire "Rescue Han" sequence ends up taking up a bunch of time at the start of the film while not doing a ton of work towards either finale. (it does some, but again mostly towards Luke's story and not the rest of it)
That seems sensible to me, which makes it all the more baffling that Lucas wanted to extend the Jabba's Palace thing with some singing and dancing. The Luke/Vader parts are unquestionably the best part of the last movie and it just feels like everything else is just giving everyone else something to do and they seem super busy on top of that.
I'm not sure how you restructure it though. Maybe just make it so the ground battle and the space battle aren't simultaneous? Han blows the generator, the Rebel fleet jumps in. Or you just make everything one big space battle and cut the ground battle entirely?
Edit: ROTJ is the bronze medal. Yes, you are the worst of the three, but to get a bronze medal at the Olympics is still one hell of a fucking accomplishment.
It's a difficult question. The main problem in some ways is honestly ESB. ESB sets up two main plotlines at the end. Luke vs Vader and Rescue Han. The problem is the first ties directly into the ending and the second does not. ESB doesn't spend time setting up the final Rebellion vs Empire conflict the way it does with Luke's story and that's why Luke's story seems both more obvious in terms of writing the film and part of why it feels more important. ESB touches on "The Rebellion is gonna strike back after Hoth" briefly in the last scene or so, but it doesn't set up anything for the coming film. And the Rescue Han plot actually kind of gets in the way because it means you gotta spend the opening of the film on that sequence instead of on laying the groundwork for your Empire vs Rebellion finale.
I guess you'd need to maybe shorted up the Han rescue sequence some and insert something in the middle, maybe somehow flowing out of the Han rescue, that sets up your final conflict. And then spend less time on silly Ewok adventures and more time building the tension around the other half of the finale and linking them together thematically somehow.
Just going by the movies, Palpatine was never actually shown to be the 'execute for single fuckup' type. Vader was.
And even he kept it for what sounded like repeated fuckups, or managing to lose a single ship because Star Destroyers don't have back windows.
Yeah, this whole "execute failures" thing seems less of an Empire thing and more of a Vader thing, judging by the OT at least. Shit, in ANH Tarkin is all "Goddammit, stop choking my officers Vader".
In ANH, Tarkin (that's right, here I am again) has a featured war council where senior staff officers openly deliberate political policy moving forward, where his own position is made abundantly clear, and then openly brooks disagreement from a flag officer. He doesn't seem to get angry, if anything, he might be amused by his subordinate's caution or paranoia, because he [General Casio Tagge, I looked it up] keeps bringing it up over and over again, and the governor just responds with assurances that his fears, while not necessarily valid (or invalid) have been accounted for.
Now, for all we know, Peter Cushing was going to take whats-his-name aside and dress him down afterwards for fear mongering or causing panic or even just disagreeing with him. But Vader squeezing someone else's windpipe telepathically for criticizing his failed (and illegal) religion--the same way was perfectly content to do--and his inappropriate nostalgia to the ancien regime put things into perspective.
The Emperor might be "pulling Vaders" left and right, but it seems as believable that Vader, after a bout of failures with Luke Skywalker after ESB (we're not counting killing your hilariously duplicitous rival lizard crime boss), and generally not a pleasant individual to begin with, was throwing out threats because he could (on top of obeying one of the old rules of [bad] management: threaten people for fun and profit). Notably, Jerjerrod [fun spelling] was scared shitless (or at least looked it) by the threat, but the actual progress of the Death Star following Vader's arrival seems superficial at best. The whole event seems to have the effect of simply being Vader's intentional (or even unintentional) move to take credit for the progress towards completion in the face of the Emperor being impressed (or at least satisfied) with what he sees. Maybe Vader already knew the Emperor wouldn't care so long as his scheme--a combat-ready station, an operational superlaser--could still be implemented. Maybe the Emperor knew Vader knew, and didn't particularly mind Vader scaring a moff here or there, as long as no one got choked (or no one important). Because the Emperor did trust Jerjerrod enough to rely on him at least--hence the cut scene where Jerjerrod, a few seconds from a snapped neck or breathing through a tube, personally keeps Vader from visiting the Emperor, on orders, and Vader even obeys.
There's a lot of ways to rationalize it. An easy way is the Emperor is a politician (or at least remembers how to be one), and Vader never was. In that context, Vader throwing his weight (and fury around) while the Emperor seems content to bask in the forced reverence of his empire and not sweat the small stuff (until the highlight of his trip, frying his colleague's son with magic lightning).
Also, smug snake and apparently choking-survivor Admiral Motti (before being blown up with the rest of the Death Star) still saw fit to submit an incident report after Tarkin's strategy meeting where he criticized the dark lord of the Sith for politically inappropriate religious proselytizing and restated his point for the record, presumably to be reviewed by his superiors (which would mostly consist of the Emperor and Tarkin himself).
Whatever conclusions you ultimately draw about the incident taking place between myself and Lord Vader during yesterday morning's briefing, he was wrong, and trying to crush someone else's windpipe doesn't make you any less wrong, if you're wrong to begin with. Which he was. I do not concede the argument.
Yeah, not going to lie, this is easily among my top ten favorite additions to the "new canon."
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
I would add that I think RotJ works like gangbusters despite all these flaws. The cast is in top form and most of the moment to moment sequences are entertaining and engaging. It’s mostly when looking at the bones that I see how awkward the whole thing is.
I think one thing that is also lost WRT RotJ in 201920 (and anytime post-SE) are the effects. RotJ was beautiful and mind-blowing for 1983. Like just on a whole other level from the already groundbreaking ESB. All you need to do is watch any of the Rebel fleet rallying or battle of the Death Star II sequences to see how far the model work advanced. And then there's the speeder bike chase.
The OT's action set-pieces landed really well, which unfortunately inspired a lot of awkward and forced ones in the PT, and (to a lesser extent) ST.
And now I'm thinking of that one shot near the beginning of the Battle of Endor, shot through the Falcon's front window, where it's like "and then the sky opened up and started raining TIEs."
Which was quite the thing, when you had to mount and rig and photograph at least half of them! (and then mirror them in the final shot)
Now? Eh, you can do that in an hour on a render farm.
And this is why i like bradon sanderson view on magic
1. An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic in a satisfying way is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.
2. Weaknesses (also Limits and Costs) are more interesting than powers.
3. Expand on what you have already, before you add something new. If you change one thing, you change the world.
This can be easily applied to world building itself. and much of the ST fails at this.
I would add that I think RotJ works like gangbusters despite all these flaws. The cast is in top form and most of the moment to moment sequences are entertaining and engaging. It’s mostly when looking at the bones that I see how awkward the whole thing is.
I think one thing that is also lost WRT RotJ in 201920 (and anytime post-SE) are the effects. RotJ was beautiful and mind-blowing for 1983. Like just on a whole other level from the already groundbreaking ESB. All you need to do is watch any of the Rebel fleet rallying or battle of the Death Star II sequences to see how far the model work advanced. And then there's the speeder bike chase.
The OT's action set-pieces landed really well, which unfortunately inspired a lot of awkward and forced ones in the PT, and (to a lesser extent) ST.
The impressive part isn't how good they looked at the time, it's that they never became ugly.
I would add that I think RotJ works like gangbusters despite all these flaws. The cast is in top form and most of the moment to moment sequences are entertaining and engaging. It’s mostly when looking at the bones that I see how awkward the whole thing is.
In that sense it reminds me the most of the sequel movies, and lays the groundwork for the prequels’ bad habits. Overexplaining, taking the Force from something ambiguous and spiritual to something more like being a genetic superhero, connecting everything to everything else, repeating elements of previous films instead of inventing new things.
The prequels made the mistake of over-explaining all the boring and uninteresting things, the sequels made the mistake of not explaining fuck-all except the things that were best left unanswered.
I don't feel that RotJ needs to set up the Empire vs Rebellion plot. It's ancillary. The Emperor doesn't really care beyond using the threat to turn Luke. Luke just wanders out of the Rebellion into his own movie when he meets Vader on Endor. The struggle contrasted against how little those in power give a shit feels like it's part of the point.
It's still the weakest of the OT. ANH is practically perfect, ESB, while not flawless, is deeper and richer than ANH. RotJ merely sits at good to great and as a conclusion to the previous, it is wholly satisfying.
I like it better than dance of the fates cuz it's emotional and climactic, and like the OT lightsaber fights was used super sparingly so you'd yearn for it
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
I still like ROTJ for having the most amazing battle sequences in the series. Yeah no one of the setpieces is better than Hoth alone, but when the movie is going from space to the ground to the throne room all of them together are just a nonstop ride of amazing sci fi fighting.
I still like ROTJ for having the most amazing battle sequences in the series. Yeah no one of the setpieces is better than Hoth alone, but when the movie is going from space to the ground to the throne room all of them together are just a nonstop ride of amazing sci fi fighting.
Its very intentionally stop.
Iirc Each of the sequences has a different speed at which it progresses. So while the battle is raging on the surface the space battle hasnt begun. We cut from the fight to a slow down tension builder of the fleet warping in. And then when the ground fight and space fight are are in full swing the luke/vader section slows them down and gives you time to breathe. Then they climax in succession. The super star destroyer goes down, the shield projector goes down and the final attack run begins and then we are back in the throne room to finish that climax.
I would add that I think RotJ works like gangbusters despite all these flaws. The cast is in top form and most of the moment to moment sequences are entertaining and engaging. It’s mostly when looking at the bones that I see how awkward the whole thing is.
In that sense it reminds me the most of the sequel movies, and lays the groundwork for the prequels’ bad habits. Overexplaining, taking the Force from something ambiguous and spiritual to something more like being a genetic superhero, connecting everything to everything else, repeating elements of previous films instead of inventing new things.
What I love are the little moments in dialogue that just work so well. They flow.
Like when Han and Luke meet up again in Jabba's palace.
"How are we doing?"
"Same as always"
"That Bad huh?"
It captures a lot of history and relationship in 3 lines but it doesn't waste time spelling it out for you.
I figured the battle plan for Endor was to blow the shield as close as possible to the fleet arriving, to prevent any reinforcements.
So no, everything is happening at the same time. Commandos fail, fleet shows up and gets trapped, both battles kick off, superlaser starts firing, duel starts.
I don't feel that RotJ needs to set up the Empire vs Rebellion plot. It's ancillary. The Emperor doesn't really care beyond using the threat to turn Luke. Luke just wanders out of the Rebellion into his own movie when he meets Vader on Endor. The struggle contrasted against how little those in power give a shit feels like it's part of the point.
It's still the weakest of the OT. ANH is practically perfect, ESB, while not flawless, is deeper and richer than ANH. RotJ merely sits at good to great and as a conclusion to the previous, it is wholly satisfying.
The fact that the entire Empire vs Rebellion plot in ROTJ is ancillary is the whole problem. Most of it kinda falls too flat in the end compared to the Luke plotline.
I don't feel that RotJ needs to set up the Empire vs Rebellion plot. It's ancillary. The Emperor doesn't really care beyond using the threat to turn Luke. Luke just wanders out of the Rebellion into his own movie when he meets Vader on Endor. The struggle contrasted against how little those in power give a shit feels like it's part of the point.
It's still the weakest of the OT. ANH is practically perfect, ESB, while not flawless, is deeper and richer than ANH. RotJ merely sits at good to great and as a conclusion to the previous, it is wholly satisfying.
The fact that the entire Empire vs Rebellion plot in ROTJ is ancillary is the whole problem. Most of it kinda falls too flat in the end compared to the Luke plotline.
Sounds like some other Star Wars movie I saw recently.
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Linespider5ALL HAIL KING KILLMONGERRegistered Userregular
Sometimes I imagine Palpatine had Coruscanf reduced to scrap to get all the metals and raw materials to make the first Death Star.
Sure, that’s a shocking amount of door-to-door genocide to remove all the people living there, but ‘giant metal planet’ sure would simplify building an entire orbital weapons platform. It’s right there.
I figured the battle plan for Endor was to blow the shield as close as possible to the fleet arriving, to prevent any reinforcements.
So no, everything is happening at the same time. Commandos fail, fleet shows up and gets trapped, both battles kick off, superlaser starts firing, duel starts.
Its happening at the same time but the action in one of the three slows when the action in the other scenes peaks.
I don't feel that RotJ needs to set up the Empire vs Rebellion plot. It's ancillary. The Emperor doesn't really care beyond using the threat to turn Luke. Luke just wanders out of the Rebellion into his own movie when he meets Vader on Endor. The struggle contrasted against how little those in power give a shit feels like it's part of the point.
It's still the weakest of the OT. ANH is practically perfect, ESB, while not flawless, is deeper and richer than ANH. RotJ merely sits at good to great and as a conclusion to the previous, it is wholly satisfying.
The fact that the entire Empire vs Rebellion plot in ROTJ is ancillary is the whole problem. Most of it kinda falls too flat in the end compared to the Luke plotline.
I don't see it as a problem. The heart of the movie is the family drama. The war is the backdrop the drama takes place in. The stakes were set over the course of the first 2 movies, we know everything about that struggle that we need to know walking in. The stakes of the final battle are clear. What we learn is that the Rebellion is up against a wizard and they were always out of his league.
It has other issues, like Han's rescue, while fun and informative regarding Luke's growth, being disconnected from the plot.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Sometimes I imagine Palpatine had Coruscanf reduced to scrap to get all the metals and raw materials to make the first Death Star.
Sure, that’s a shocking amount of door-to-door genocide to remove all the people living there, but ‘giant metal planet’ sure would simplify building an entire orbital weapons platform. It’s right there.
...he's building a giant planet-killing superweapon, why would he bother removing anybody in the first place?
Much faster and easier to just pave over them without notice and move on with construction.
I don't feel that RotJ needs to set up the Empire vs Rebellion plot. It's ancillary. The Emperor doesn't really care beyond using the threat to turn Luke. Luke just wanders out of the Rebellion into his own movie when he meets Vader on Endor. The struggle contrasted against how little those in power give a shit feels like it's part of the point.
It's still the weakest of the OT. ANH is practically perfect, ESB, while not flawless, is deeper and richer than ANH. RotJ merely sits at good to great and as a conclusion to the previous, it is wholly satisfying.
The fact that the entire Empire vs Rebellion plot in ROTJ is ancillary is the whole problem. Most of it kinda falls too flat in the end compared to the Luke plotline.
I don't see it as a problem. The heart of the movie is the family drama. The war is the backdrop the drama takes place in. The stakes were set over the course of the first 2 movies, we know everything about that struggle that we need to know walking in. The stakes of the final battle are clear. What we learn is that the Rebellion is up against a wizard and they were always out of his league.
It has other issues, like Han's rescue, while fun and informative regarding Luke's growth, being disconnected from the plot.
If the heart of your movie sidelines 2/3rds of your main characters, that's a problem.
I don't feel that RotJ needs to set up the Empire vs Rebellion plot. It's ancillary. The Emperor doesn't really care beyond using the threat to turn Luke. Luke just wanders out of the Rebellion into his own movie when he meets Vader on Endor. The struggle contrasted against how little those in power give a shit feels like it's part of the point.
It's still the weakest of the OT. ANH is practically perfect, ESB, while not flawless, is deeper and richer than ANH. RotJ merely sits at good to great and as a conclusion to the previous, it is wholly satisfying.
The fact that the entire Empire vs Rebellion plot in ROTJ is ancillary is the whole problem. Most of it kinda falls too flat in the end compared to the Luke plotline.
I don't see it as a problem. The heart of the movie is the family drama. The war is the backdrop the drama takes place in. The stakes were set over the course of the first 2 movies, we know everything about that struggle that we need to know walking in. The stakes of the final battle are clear. What we learn is that the Rebellion is up against a wizard and they were always out of his league.
It has other issues, like Han's rescue, while fun and informative regarding Luke's growth, being disconnected from the plot.
If the heart of your movie sidelines 2/3rds of your main characters, that's a problem.
See also: ROS.
Nobody is sidelined. Han becomes a true hero, volunteering for the tough mission, and not for Leia or Luke, for the right reasons. Their romance peaks. They pull off the win that allows the Empire to be defeated once and for all. Is it the B story? Absolutely. They are not sidelined in the slightest.
I think the movie that was the least Empire vs Rebellion was Empire Strikes Back. After the first act, the main characters are the only members of the rebellion on screen, and they're not on a mission for the rebellion or whatever; they're just refugees and the rest of the rebel alliance is elsewhere.
Marty: The future, it's where you're going? Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
Saw rise of Skywalker finally. It was a good movie about wizards with laser swords. I certainly had fun
It's okay, we can fix that.
Nobody remembers the singer. The song remains.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
One of the nice things about RotJ is that the planet destroying superweapon isn't there as a threat that needs to be destroyed before it takes out half the galaxy, it's bait.
Great dialogue between Palps and Luke too.
Luke: You're wrong. Soon I'll be dead, and you with me.
The Emperor: [chuckling evilly] Perhaps you refer to the imminent attack of your Rebel fleet? Yes; I assure you, we are quite safe from your friends here.
Luke: Your overconfidence is your weakness.
The Emperor: [looks back at Luke] Your faith in your friends is yours.
Subsequent events showed who was right and who was wrong there.
The Emperor: [laughing] Good! Your hate has made you powerful. Now, fulfill your destiny and take your father's place at my side.
Luke: [looks at Vader's severed hand, then turns to face the Emperor, throwing away his lightsaber] Never. I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me.
The Emperor: [angrily] So be it... Jedi.
I like this bit because there's no smack talking. Luke uses the honorific to address the Emperor, and the Emperor in turn accepts Luke's claim to the title of Jedi and refers to him as such, and manages to cram an inhuman amount of contempt into the word.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
McDiarmid's performance was once described as "cleverly obscene", and I think it fits him perfectly. You can well believe this foul ol' man is a bubbling, roiling pit of depravity and the worst impulses imaginable, sitting there with a fishing rod trying to just catch the weakness in you and get a hook deep in your upper lip.
I will stand by my initial statement in 2005 when I said that Ian McDiarmid in that scene (“Kill him”) in particular and the movie as a whole is absolutely fantastic. It’s one of my favorite performances in any “Star Wars” film including the original trilogy. He’s a reptile. He’s lip-smackingly awful. I love him.
Speaking of McDiarmid as Palpatine, I noticed the other day that he was credited for parts of Rebels that were previously Witwer doing an impression for '2019 forward'. Redubbed for D+, I guess?
That's a Special Edition I can appreciate.
Kamar on
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reVerseAttack and Dethrone GodRegistered Userregular
Speaking of McDiarmid as Palpatine, I noticed the other day that he was credited for parts of Rebels that were previously Witwer doing an impression for '2019 forward'. Redubbed for D+, I guess?
That's a Special Edition I can appreciate.
No, McDiarmid always did the voice in Rebels.
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ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
I mean everyone loves Ian McDiarmid and he's a highlight in literally every movie he's been in. He's just so fucking good at it.
I would love to see an Emperor cartoon with McDiarmid of him just having over the top, nutso plans, and being foiled by his own bumbling sidekick. Maybe Little Emperor and it can be him on Naboo as a child just being a complete fucking terror. "Yes my young apprentice I have built a superweapon capable of destroying their precious basketball court. Never again shall their incessant bouncing interrupt our plans." "Soon I will have crushed the fifth graders and all of their Halloween candies shall be mine."
His cartoonish levels of evil are just so entertaining in the Mr. Burns style. It's just fun to watch.
I don't feel that RotJ needs to set up the Empire vs Rebellion plot. It's ancillary. The Emperor doesn't really care beyond using the threat to turn Luke. Luke just wanders out of the Rebellion into his own movie when he meets Vader on Endor. The struggle contrasted against how little those in power give a shit feels like it's part of the point.
It's still the weakest of the OT. ANH is practically perfect, ESB, while not flawless, is deeper and richer than ANH. RotJ merely sits at good to great and as a conclusion to the previous, it is wholly satisfying.
The fact that the entire Empire vs Rebellion plot in ROTJ is ancillary is the whole problem. Most of it kinda falls too flat in the end compared to the Luke plotline.
I don't see it as a problem. The heart of the movie is the family drama. The war is the backdrop the drama takes place in. The stakes were set over the course of the first 2 movies, we know everything about that struggle that we need to know walking in. The stakes of the final battle are clear. What we learn is that the Rebellion is up against a wizard and they were always out of his league.
It has other issues, like Han's rescue, while fun and informative regarding Luke's growth, being disconnected from the plot.
If the heart of your movie sidelines 2/3rds of your main characters, that's a problem.
See also: ROS.
Nobody is sidelined. Han becomes a true hero, volunteering for the tough mission, and not for Leia or Luke, for the right reasons. Their romance peaks. They pull off the win that allows the Empire to be defeated once and for all. Is it the B story? Absolutely. They are not sidelined in the slightest.
You just said the heart of the movie was the Luke/Vader drama and the war is the backdrop. 2/3rds of your main characters in the climax of your final film should not be relegated to the b-plot, they should also be part of what can be described as "the heart of the movie". Leia and Han's plotline at the end should not be describable as "ancillary" is the whole point.
ROTJ isn't near as bad as ROS at this. Lucas at least tries. But it's still one of the biggest weaknesses of the film.
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I think the problem is, we all have +-30 years of headcannon in this galaxy. The more official tentpole (film) media we get that codifies big huge important details, the less room we have for the stories we've been dreaming.
I still want to see a live action Rogue Squadron series set sometime between ESB and RotJ. Make Soontir Fel be the big bad
I think the Ewoks used to get all the blame for RotJ’s flaws, but you’re right, it’s a lot more about the weird structure of things overall.
I actually think that little moment where one Ewok is killed and another fails to wake him up is a highlight of the movie. It gets at the tonal weirdness of the whole thing, but as a standalone moment it’s genuinely heartbreaking - they get played for jokes otherwise, and the movie takes a real moment to flesh them out.
The pacing of the new movies would never allow that.
Or place so much emphasis on a white folks-meet the natives storyline in the first place, so maybe we’ll call that particular example a wash.
Look, if you've never been a middle manager who's shut down an argument by saying "Look, I get it, but don't argue with me about this, it comes from corporate/the VP/the client/the government/etc and they'll have our asses otherwise", even if you know those authorities would likely do nothing anyway -- you're a better person than I am.
In that sense it reminds me the most of the sequel movies, and lays the groundwork for the prequels’ bad habits. Overexplaining, taking the Force from something ambiguous and spiritual to something more like being a genetic superhero, connecting everything to everything else, repeating elements of previous films instead of inventing new things.
That seems sensible to me, which makes it all the more baffling that Lucas wanted to extend the Jabba's Palace thing with some singing and dancing. The Luke/Vader parts are unquestionably the best part of the last movie and it just feels like everything else is just giving everyone else something to do and they seem super busy on top of that.
I'm not sure how you restructure it though. Maybe just make it so the ground battle and the space battle aren't simultaneous? Han blows the generator, the Rebel fleet jumps in. Or you just make everything one big space battle and cut the ground battle entirely?
Edit: ROTJ is the bronze medal. Yes, you are the worst of the three, but to get a bronze medal at the Olympics is still one hell of a fucking accomplishment.
It's a difficult question. The main problem in some ways is honestly ESB. ESB sets up two main plotlines at the end. Luke vs Vader and Rescue Han. The problem is the first ties directly into the ending and the second does not. ESB doesn't spend time setting up the final Rebellion vs Empire conflict the way it does with Luke's story and that's why Luke's story seems both more obvious in terms of writing the film and part of why it feels more important. ESB touches on "The Rebellion is gonna strike back after Hoth" briefly in the last scene or so, but it doesn't set up anything for the coming film. And the Rescue Han plot actually kind of gets in the way because it means you gotta spend the opening of the film on that sequence instead of on laying the groundwork for your Empire vs Rebellion finale.
I guess you'd need to maybe shorted up the Han rescue sequence some and insert something in the middle, maybe somehow flowing out of the Han rescue, that sets up your final conflict. And then spend less time on silly Ewok adventures and more time building the tension around the other half of the finale and linking them together thematically somehow.
In ANH, Tarkin (that's right, here I am again) has a featured war council where senior staff officers openly deliberate political policy moving forward, where his own position is made abundantly clear, and then openly brooks disagreement from a flag officer. He doesn't seem to get angry, if anything, he might be amused by his subordinate's caution or paranoia, because he [General Casio Tagge, I looked it up] keeps bringing it up over and over again, and the governor just responds with assurances that his fears, while not necessarily valid (or invalid) have been accounted for.
Now, for all we know, Peter Cushing was going to take whats-his-name aside and dress him down afterwards for fear mongering or causing panic or even just disagreeing with him. But Vader squeezing someone else's windpipe telepathically for criticizing his failed (and illegal) religion--the same way was perfectly content to do--and his inappropriate nostalgia to the ancien regime put things into perspective.
The Emperor might be "pulling Vaders" left and right, but it seems as believable that Vader, after a bout of failures with Luke Skywalker after ESB (we're not counting killing your hilariously duplicitous rival lizard crime boss), and generally not a pleasant individual to begin with, was throwing out threats because he could (on top of obeying one of the old rules of [bad] management: threaten people for fun and profit). Notably, Jerjerrod [fun spelling] was scared shitless (or at least looked it) by the threat, but the actual progress of the Death Star following Vader's arrival seems superficial at best. The whole event seems to have the effect of simply being Vader's intentional (or even unintentional) move to take credit for the progress towards completion in the face of the Emperor being impressed (or at least satisfied) with what he sees. Maybe Vader already knew the Emperor wouldn't care so long as his scheme--a combat-ready station, an operational superlaser--could still be implemented. Maybe the Emperor knew Vader knew, and didn't particularly mind Vader scaring a moff here or there, as long as no one got choked (or no one important). Because the Emperor did trust Jerjerrod enough to rely on him at least--hence the cut scene where Jerjerrod, a few seconds from a snapped neck or breathing through a tube, personally keeps Vader from visiting the Emperor, on orders, and Vader even obeys.
There's a lot of ways to rationalize it. An easy way is the Emperor is a politician (or at least remembers how to be one), and Vader never was. In that context, Vader throwing his weight (and fury around) while the Emperor seems content to bask in the forced reverence of his empire and not sweat the small stuff (until the highlight of his trip, frying his colleague's son with magic lightning).
Or I've just watched too much Robot Chicken.
Yeah, not going to lie, this is easily among my top ten favorite additions to the "new canon."
*slow clap*
The OT's action set-pieces landed really well, which unfortunately inspired a lot of awkward and forced ones in the PT, and (to a lesser extent) ST.
Which was quite the thing, when you had to mount and rig and photograph at least half of them! (and then mirror them in the final shot)
Now? Eh, you can do that in an hour on a render farm.
And this is why i like bradon sanderson view on magic
1. An author’s ability to solve conflict with magic in a satisfying way is directly proportional to how well the reader understands said magic.
2. Weaknesses (also Limits and Costs) are more interesting than powers.
3. Expand on what you have already, before you add something new. If you change one thing, you change the world.
This can be easily applied to world building itself. and much of the ST fails at this.
The impressive part isn't how good they looked at the time, it's that they never became ugly.
The prequels made the mistake of over-explaining all the boring and uninteresting things, the sequels made the mistake of not explaining fuck-all except the things that were best left unanswered.
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It's still the weakest of the OT. ANH is practically perfect, ESB, while not flawless, is deeper and richer than ANH. RotJ merely sits at good to great and as a conclusion to the previous, it is wholly satisfying.
I like it better than dance of the fates cuz it's emotional and climactic, and like the OT lightsaber fights was used super sparingly so you'd yearn for it
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It's sampled in the Genndy Tartakovsky Anakin v Ventress fight
Its very intentionally stop.
Iirc Each of the sequences has a different speed at which it progresses. So while the battle is raging on the surface the space battle hasnt begun. We cut from the fight to a slow down tension builder of the fleet warping in. And then when the ground fight and space fight are are in full swing the luke/vader section slows them down and gives you time to breathe. Then they climax in succession. The super star destroyer goes down, the shield projector goes down and the final attack run begins and then we are back in the throne room to finish that climax.
Its all really expery put together
What I love are the little moments in dialogue that just work so well. They flow.
Like when Han and Luke meet up again in Jabba's palace.
"How are we doing?"
"Same as always"
"That Bad huh?"
It captures a lot of history and relationship in 3 lines but it doesn't waste time spelling it out for you.
So no, everything is happening at the same time. Commandos fail, fleet shows up and gets trapped, both battles kick off, superlaser starts firing, duel starts.
The fact that the entire Empire vs Rebellion plot in ROTJ is ancillary is the whole problem. Most of it kinda falls too flat in the end compared to the Luke plotline.
Sounds like some other Star Wars movie I saw recently.
Sure, that’s a shocking amount of door-to-door genocide to remove all the people living there, but ‘giant metal planet’ sure would simplify building an entire orbital weapons platform. It’s right there.
Its happening at the same time but the action in one of the three slows when the action in the other scenes peaks.
I don't see it as a problem. The heart of the movie is the family drama. The war is the backdrop the drama takes place in. The stakes were set over the course of the first 2 movies, we know everything about that struggle that we need to know walking in. The stakes of the final battle are clear. What we learn is that the Rebellion is up against a wizard and they were always out of his league.
It has other issues, like Han's rescue, while fun and informative regarding Luke's growth, being disconnected from the plot.
...he's building a giant planet-killing superweapon, why would he bother removing anybody in the first place?
Much faster and easier to just pave over them without notice and move on with construction.
If the heart of your movie sidelines 2/3rds of your main characters, that's a problem.
See also: ROS.
Nobody is sidelined. Han becomes a true hero, volunteering for the tough mission, and not for Leia or Luke, for the right reasons. Their romance peaks. They pull off the win that allows the Empire to be defeated once and for all. Is it the B story? Absolutely. They are not sidelined in the slightest.
Doc: That's right, twenty five years into the future. I've always dreamed on seeing the future, looking beyond my years, seeing the progress of mankind. I'll also be able to see who wins the next twenty-five world series.
It's okay, we can fix that.
Great dialogue between Palps and Luke too. Subsequent events showed who was right and who was wrong there. I like this bit because there's no smack talking. Luke uses the honorific to address the Emperor, and the Emperor in turn accepts Luke's claim to the title of Jedi and refers to him as such, and manages to cram an inhuman amount of contempt into the word.
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That's a Special Edition I can appreciate.
No, McDiarmid always did the voice in Rebels.
I would love to see an Emperor cartoon with McDiarmid of him just having over the top, nutso plans, and being foiled by his own bumbling sidekick. Maybe Little Emperor and it can be him on Naboo as a child just being a complete fucking terror. "Yes my young apprentice I have built a superweapon capable of destroying their precious basketball court. Never again shall their incessant bouncing interrupt our plans." "Soon I will have crushed the fifth graders and all of their Halloween candies shall be mine."
His cartoonish levels of evil are just so entertaining in the Mr. Burns style. It's just fun to watch.
You just said the heart of the movie was the Luke/Vader drama and the war is the backdrop. 2/3rds of your main characters in the climax of your final film should not be relegated to the b-plot, they should also be part of what can be described as "the heart of the movie". Leia and Han's plotline at the end should not be describable as "ancillary" is the whole point.
ROTJ isn't near as bad as ROS at this. Lucas at least tries. But it's still one of the biggest weaknesses of the film.