I would fall over dead from surprise if last night’s debate did anything other than mildly calcify existing support for the person on stage you already liked the most
It cannot be overstated how plugged in we are here compared to the rest of the country
my mom's car and yard are covered in pro warren and pro sanders stuff, as well as lots of anti trump things and she hates biden
she didn't know there was a debate last night
There's been a lot of opinion pieces this week about the big gap being between engaged and unengaged voters and how the unengaged (rightfully!) don't trust the major media organizations and believe they're entirely too focused on trivial bullshit and what actually matters. So they're frustrated. And one of the problems Democrats have is that they care too much about those media organizations. Which means they are not even reaching these voters. Trump's omnipresence since he announced, especially digitally, means they do see him though.
Trump's outright rejection of the mainstream media (except fox, where everyone there already loved him) is one of the reasons he got so many ignorant voters
the conventional wisdom that you can't be mean to CNN because they won't cover you turned out to be bullshit
This idea that Warren committed some egregious breach of etiquette by not shaking hands with Bernie is beyond silly.
At no point in this story has Bernie said anything close to an apology for what he said, I even if he didn’t mean it the way Warren took it. Unless you are claiming that Warren is 100% lying about the entire story and she made the whole thing up. Bernie seemingly said something and Warren took it in a way it wasn’t intended.
Instead of apologizing or offering any indication that he understands her feelings, Bernie doubles down and says that it’s not true.
And people wonder why Warren might be, in the moment, pissed at her friend and not exactly in the mood to shake his hand?
What, so Bernie should just accept being labeled a misogynist in the court of public opinion?
No, of course not. He could have made a statement along the lines of “Liz and I did have a conversation, and I apologize that she took away something from our talk that I would have never intended. I have long supported female candidates and my record reflects that.”
Easy, cast the discussion as a misunderstanding and apologize. That’s not accepting any sort of label as a misogynist.
CNN's sources on this are impressively vague. Anonymous sources are usually at least something along the lines of 'senior staff' or similar. This is just two people Warren talked to (which isn't the most horrible sourcing) and two straight-up randos as far as we know.
HandshakeGate is the most absurd non-event this election cycle so far. There are a million other things to be mad about in the world today, how is this even a thing? This is somehow more ridiculous than when a big deal is made of athlete/coach handshakes. There is supporting your candidate, which is reasonable, and then there is getting outraged at a perceived minor slight. Personally I try to reserve my precious outrage mental space for things that actually matter.
Frankly, I turned off CNN as soon as the debate was over because CNN is awful and who wants to listen to their punditry?
I'm too far too the left to participate in these discussions, I guess
I see Warren as a step in the right direction for the Democratic party, bit she doesn't go far enough to save human society as we know it within my life time
She and Comrade Bernard are trying to change the party from within, and I can appreciate the cynicism of that, but neo liberalism is literally serving the world to the fascists on a platter, so I'm less than enthusiastic
Mike, Pete and Joe should primary Trump as Republicans, their records should exclude them from the current version of the Democratic party
A country where Joe Biden runs as a republican will never elect another Democrat.
I'm sure the Dem party will manage just fine without candidates who wax poetic about all those very civil segregationists they worked with or lying about voting for a war the killed hundreds of thousands.
Senator Warren's very public snub didn't go unnoticed. She made no attempt to de-escalate.
Except this story was already a headline before the debate and before either candidate commented on it.
But hey, blame women.
The claim made was that both Warren and Sanders tried to de-escalate. Warren failed to shake Sanders' hand afterwards in a very public snub.
So yes, I will blame Senator Warren for failing to de-escalate the situation.
Except it's only an escalation of you think it matters. Even fucking Sirota is saying it doesn't. The headlines for this story were already a thing for days before the debate, so handshake-ghazi didn't cause that either. The media was already making this fight happen.
Of course, if you want to call "not shaking his hand" am escalation anyway then "calling her a liar" is also an escalation and the most likely precipitating incident to handshake-ghazi.
I'm too far too the left to participate in these discussions, I guess
I see Warren as a step in the right direction for the Democratic party, bit she doesn't go far enough to save human society as we know it within my life time
She and Comrade Bernard are trying to change the party from within, and I can appreciate the cynicism of that, but neo liberalism is literally serving the world to the fascists on a platter, so I'm less than enthusiastic
Mike, Pete and Joe should primary Trump as Republicans, their records should exclude them from the current version of the Democratic party
A country where Joe Biden runs as a republican will never elect another Democrat.
Considering the shifts in parties over the last 100 years, how do you mean?
I guess the Democrats could go back to being the racism party instead, but what I mean is that a Democratic party successful enough in removing its moderate wing to have Joe Biden run as a republican would also be a Democratic party without a large enough slice of the electorate to win any elections.
I think most people think that it really doesn't matter who wins the nomination, most of us don't have a say in it because we don't live in the middle of nowhere and are willing to vote for whoever gets the nomination.
I'm here in SoCal and literally no one is talking about the dem primary. It's like we're going off to fight a dragon and the knights are arguing about what type of weapon we should use; a sword, a warhammer, an axe. And most of us are the plebs who won't be doing the fighting or deciding, we will just be carrying the gear for the knights. So it doesn't feel like there's a point to adding any commentary to it, pick something and let's go kill the dragon or die.
It sounds a bit melodramatic, but I feel like there's a collective PTSD that's made us fatalistic.
I think most people think that it really doesn't matter who wins the nomination, most of us don't have a say in it because we don't live in the middle of nowhere and are willing to vote for whoever gets the nomination.
I'm here in SoCal and literally no one is talking about the dem primary. It's like we're going off to fight a dragon and the knights are arguing about what type of weapon we should use; a sword, a warhammer, an axe. And most of us are the plebs who won't be doing the fighting or deciding, we will just be carrying the gear for the knights. So it doesn't feel like there's a point to adding any commentary to it, pick something and let's go kill the dragon or die.
It sounds a bit melodramatic, but I feel like there's a collective PTSD that's mad us fatalistic.
Y'all are on Super Tuesday!
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Also, now that Bernie and Warren have a shot in Iowa, opinions about how lillywhite the state is, and how it shouldn't be voting first or taking a leadership role in the Democratic primary, have mysteriously vanished from the progressive constellation of opinions...
Also, now that Bernie and Warren have a shot in Iowa, opinions about how lillywhite the state is, and how it shouldn't be voting first or taking a leadership role in the Democratic primary, have mysteriously vanished from the progressive constellation of opinions...
I think most people think that it really doesn't matter who wins the nomination, most of us don't have a say in it because we don't live in the middle of nowhere and are willing to vote for whoever gets the nomination.
I'm here in SoCal and literally no one is talking about the dem primary. It's like we're going off to fight a dragon and the knights are arguing about what type of weapon we should use; a sword, a warhammer, an axe. And most of us are the plebs who won't be doing the fighting or deciding, we will just be carrying the gear for the knights. So it doesn't feel like there's a point to adding any commentary to it, pick something and let's go kill the dragon or die.
It sounds a bit melodramatic, but I feel like there's a collective PTSD that's mad us fatalistic.
Y'all are on Super Tuesday!
Yeah if you want a real useless primary its washingtons. At least this year its a real primary and not a caucus, but its still a piss in the wind after super tuesday.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Also, now that Bernie and Warren have a shot in Iowa, opinions about how lillywhite the state is, and how it shouldn't be voting first or taking a leadership role in the Democratic primary, have mysteriously vanished from the progressive constellation of opinions...
I'll add my opposition to Iowa's position as a preface to my posts
+11
MonwynApathy's a tragedy, and boredom is a crime.A little bit of everything, all of the time.Registered Userregular
Also, now that Bernie and Warren have a shot in Iowa, opinions about how lillywhite the state is, and how it shouldn't be voting first or taking a leadership role in the Democratic primary, have mysteriously vanished from the progressive constellation of opinions...
Bernie and Warren were always frontrunners in Iowa and New Hampshire, spool. We still thought they're non-representative and shouldn't go first. We only got slightly more vocal about it when they decided to have a fling with Pete Buttigieg. Who has literally nothing to recommend him.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Also, now that Bernie and Warren have a shot in Iowa, opinions about how lillywhite the state is, and how it shouldn't be voting first or taking a leadership role in the Democratic primary, have mysteriously vanished from the progressive constellation of opinions...
I will always think primaries are dumb.
I don't like how we have them right now for sure. Like all on one day would be bad because one bit of momentum and a bad candidate can be selected. Too drawn out and it feels like it never ends. Really I just wish Iowa and NH weren't first because neither represent a significant electorate, and both encourage I think shitty early campaigning.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Also, now that Bernie and Warren have a shot in Iowa, opinions about how lillywhite the state is, and how it shouldn't be voting first or taking a leadership role in the Democratic primary, have mysteriously vanished from the progressive constellation of opinions...
This is still a problem
Do you have any solutions you wish to discuss?
I think it would be beneficial to dismantle the existing two party biased structure, do away with these early states which do not represent the landscape of the nation controlling things, and replace them with a national, simultaneous ranked choice primary
I'm too far too the left to participate in these discussions, I guess
I see Warren as a step in the right direction for the Democratic party, bit she doesn't go far enough to save human society as we know it within my life time
She and Comrade Bernard are trying to change the party from within, and I can appreciate the cynicism of that, but neo liberalism is literally serving the world to the fascists on a platter, so I'm less than enthusiastic
Mike, Pete and Joe should primary Trump as Republicans, their records should exclude them from the current version of the Democratic party
A country where Joe Biden runs as a republican will never elect another Democrat.
I'm sure the Dem party will manage just fine without candidates who wax poetic about all those very civil segregationists they worked with or lying about voting for a war the killed hundreds of thousands.
I suspect they'll even benefit from it.
I think that's fundamentally misunderstanding what spool32 is getting at. He's saying "if the GOP encompasses the political spectrum all the way over to Biden, they will win". And yeah, that's basically 100% true. If the GOP could bring candidate with platforms like Biden under their wing, they would own a MASSIVE majority of the voter base.
The problem is that this hypothetical is ludicrous because the GOP almost certainly can't build a coalition like that. Honestly, a good way to look at US politics is to consider that the main reason the Democrats can win at all is that the GOP platform itself is unpopular enough to override their systematic advantages. If they ran a slight less shitty platform they could potentially dominate elections. But they can't because they just can't bring their base and a lot the moderates easily under the same tent.
I think it's somewhat useful though in that it does bring up the size and diversity of the coalition the Democrats are working with in order to build a majority. And that's a big part of what you need to do as a party.
And also Biden just isn't that far right except in comparison to like Warren and Sanders and where we in this thread might want candidates to be.
Also Biden's support is like 50% of black people, so it's a bad hypothetical on that front. Just saying.
Anyway, the point of this long rambly post is that you can't win a presidential election in the US without scooping up a bunch of moderate voters.
but lord help us we can't let places like New York and Los Angeles have any say whatsoever in who runs the country
that would be downright unamercian
It is really frustrating that two of the largest economies in the country are basically yadda yadda yadda'd. Like california could literally be its own first world country.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
but lord help us we can't let places like New York and Los Angeles have any say whatsoever in who runs the country
that would be downright unamercian
It is really frustrating that two of the largest economies in the country are basically yadda yadda yadda'd. Like california could literally be its own first world country.
it's certainly trying to be a first world country amid america's slow descent
I think states getting more power by having elections earlier is fucking dumb and caucuses are also dumb and the electoral college is dumb
One of the best and worst things about modern America is how social media is allowing people to examine America's institutions in depth and forming their own opinions about them. Best because a lot of those institutions were founded on racist, sexist, or otherwise dire ideas and need to be re-examined. Worst because so many of these institutions were designed so that they would be difficult or impossible to change under the existing rules, and that leads to a lot of cynicism and defeatism.
Bernie Sanders supporters are bombarding Elizabeth Warren’s social media accounts with snakes emojis, memes, and GIFs in a ramp-up of the tension that’s been brewing between the two campaigns over the past week.
The barrage of emojis, which are often used by stans of pop stars in the comment sections of someone they’re feuding with (Taylor Swift vs. Calvin Harris or Taylor Swift vs. Kim Kardashian and Kanye West), has boiled over as supporters of both Warren and Sanders have escalated a proxy battle online as the candidates have disagreed over the characterization of a private 2018 meeting where Warren claims Sanders told her a woman couldn’t win the 2020 election, which Sanders vehemently denies. Sanders supporters have called Warren a “backstabber” and a “snake” for reiterating the claim during the debate Tuesday night.
Even as the Warren and Sanders campaigns attempted to move on from the story that caused a rift between their campaigns by easing tensions in group direct messages with prominent followers and again on the debate stage, supporters of the candidates have been warring over their relationship.
The fight between Warren and Sanders supporters has always seemed inevitable. On various platforms, leftists and Sanders supporters have criticized Warren for being a capitalist and for her health care plan, which they see as her campaign backing away from a commitment to Medicare for All. Democratic Socialists of America, which launched its own independent campaign for Sanders, told BuzzFeed News in September that it wasn’t ruling out the idea of distributing materials to canvassers pointing out the differences between the two candidates.
In the hours after the Tuesday debate, Warren’s mentions on Twitter have been filled with snake emojis from Sanders supporters who also got the hashtags #WarrenIsASnake and #NeverWarren to trend on Twitter on Wednesday morning. Those moves came as a video of Warren not shaking Sanders' extended hand after the debate went viral.
“Warren lied to Bernie’s face on live TV and the man still offered a handshake which she was petty enough to refuse!” one Sanders supporter tweeted with a slow-motion clip of the moment set to Timbaland and OneRepublic’s “Apologize” that fades to black and white as Sanders walks away, along with several of the hashtags that had been used to criticize Warren.
Some Sanders supporters who’ve been engaged in the Twitter war in the last several days acknowledge that this has been brewing for months.
“The first moment was when she wavered on Medicare for All,” Jeffrey Eudley, a 20-year-old Sanders supporter who requested a refund from the Warren campaign. “That’s when I first thought she was being iffy, but I still left my donations with her because I wanted to support progressive candidates.”
Eudley said the final straw happened over the past week as tension between the Warren and Sanders campaigns reached a crescendo after Warren confirmed what Sanders had said during their private meeting.
“I think she’s actively hurting the progressive movement by causing a stir between two of the biggest progressives,” Eudley told BuzzFeed News.
The Sanders campaign is trying to do something about it:
Jane Sanders is Bernie Sanders's wife and David Sirota is Sanders's speechwriter.
(Like seriously, Sanders got Biden to drop that insulting "I didn't voted for the Iraq War" attempt of gaslighting people, but is not the biggest story).
Young progressives on social media are just as infuriating as they were in 2016, I'm glad the campaign's official stance is "Biden is bad stop with this tmz shit"
I would fall over dead from surprise if last night’s debate did anything other than mildly calcify existing support for the person on stage you already liked the most
It cannot be overstated how plugged in we are here compared to the rest of the country
my mom's car and yard are covered in pro warren and pro sanders stuff, as well as lots of anti trump things and she hates biden
she didn't know there was a debate last night
There's been a lot of opinion pieces this week about the big gap being between engaged and unengaged voters and how the unengaged (rightfully!) don't trust the major media organizations and believe they're entirely too focused on trivial bullshit and not what actually matters. So they're frustrated. And one of the problems Democrats have is that they care too much about those media organizations. Which means they are not even reaching these voters. Trump's omnipresence since he announced, especially digitally, means they do see him though.
This is the actual scary thing with this election. The democratic party is still stuck in this mindset that they need to control the media narrative and aren't paying attention to how that media narrative filters down to the actual voters and that they need to control that instead. The right already knows this and is leaning hard on that shit.
Also, now that Bernie and Warren have a shot in Iowa, opinions about how lillywhite the state is, and how it shouldn't be voting first or taking a leadership role in the Democratic primary, have mysteriously vanished from the progressive constellation of opinions...
I will always think primaries are dumb.
I don't like how we have them right now for sure. Like all on one day would be bad because one bit of momentum and a bad candidate can be selected. Too drawn out and it feels like it never ends. Really I just wish Iowa and NH weren't first because neither represent a significant electorate, and both encourage I think shitty early campaigning.
All in one day with ranked voting. Ideally with the campaigns publicly funded and PACs outlawed while we're living the dream.
This Warren Sanders beef really feels manufactured by the media
Sadly the dirtbag left will latch on to any reason to scream at someone and the media just threw gasoline on their fire.
As someone who likes them both with respect to policy, this is a serious train wreck
"The only way to get rid of a temptation is to give into it." - Oscar Wilde
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche
Posts
"Democrats" are not the people going into hysterics about this on social media.
Trump's outright rejection of the mainstream media (except fox, where everyone there already loved him) is one of the reasons he got so many ignorant voters
the conventional wisdom that you can't be mean to CNN because they won't cover you turned out to be bullshit
Or maybe that's just me.
No, of course not. He could have made a statement along the lines of “Liz and I did have a conversation, and I apologize that she took away something from our talk that I would have never intended. I have long supported female candidates and my record reflects that.”
Easy, cast the discussion as a misunderstanding and apologize. That’s not accepting any sort of label as a misogynist.
The claim made was that both Warren and Sanders tried to de-escalate. Warren failed to shake Sanders' hand afterwards in a very public snub.
So yes, I will blame Senator Warren for failing to de-escalate the situation.
Two randos and a woman named Elizabeth Warren.
most democrats, I would bet money, have no idea that this is even a thing
Frankly, I turned off CNN as soon as the debate was over because CNN is awful and who wants to listen to their punditry?
I'm sure the Dem party will manage just fine without candidates who wax poetic about all those very civil segregationists they worked with or lying about voting for a war the killed hundreds of thousands.
I suspect they'll even benefit from it.
Except it's only an escalation of you think it matters. Even fucking Sirota is saying it doesn't. The headlines for this story were already a thing for days before the debate, so handshake-ghazi didn't cause that either. The media was already making this fight happen.
Of course, if you want to call "not shaking his hand" am escalation anyway then "calling her a liar" is also an escalation and the most likely precipitating incident to handshake-ghazi.
This whole thing is mostly just a story about how the media and the various candidate's vocal online supporters act.
I guess the Democrats could go back to being the racism party instead, but what I mean is that a Democratic party successful enough in removing its moderate wing to have Joe Biden run as a republican would also be a Democratic party without a large enough slice of the electorate to win any elections.
I'm here in SoCal and literally no one is talking about the dem primary. It's like we're going off to fight a dragon and the knights are arguing about what type of weapon we should use; a sword, a warhammer, an axe. And most of us are the plebs who won't be doing the fighting or deciding, we will just be carrying the gear for the knights. So it doesn't feel like there's a point to adding any commentary to it, pick something and let's go kill the dragon or die.
It sounds a bit melodramatic, but I feel like there's a collective PTSD that's made us fatalistic.
Y'all are on Super Tuesday!
Yeah if you want a real useless primary its washingtons. At least this year its a real primary and not a caucus, but its still a piss in the wind after super tuesday.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I'll add my opposition to Iowa's position as a preface to my posts
"Go on, it's okay. You've done nothing wrong. Those guys were finks, and you're a pure soul. But you didn't say God bless you when I sneezed."
Bernie and Warren were always frontrunners in Iowa and New Hampshire, spool. We still thought they're non-representative and shouldn't go first. We only got slightly more vocal about it when they decided to have a fling with Pete Buttigieg. Who has literally nothing to recommend him.
I don't like how we have them right now for sure. Like all on one day would be bad because one bit of momentum and a bad candidate can be selected. Too drawn out and it feels like it never ends. Really I just wish Iowa and NH weren't first because neither represent a significant electorate, and both encourage I think shitty early campaigning.
pleasepaypreacher.net
This is still a problem
Do you have any solutions you wish to discuss?
I think it would be beneficial to dismantle the existing two party biased structure, do away with these early states which do not represent the landscape of the nation controlling things, and replace them with a national, simultaneous ranked choice primary
that would be downright unamercian
I think that's fundamentally misunderstanding what spool32 is getting at. He's saying "if the GOP encompasses the political spectrum all the way over to Biden, they will win". And yeah, that's basically 100% true. If the GOP could bring candidate with platforms like Biden under their wing, they would own a MASSIVE majority of the voter base.
The problem is that this hypothetical is ludicrous because the GOP almost certainly can't build a coalition like that. Honestly, a good way to look at US politics is to consider that the main reason the Democrats can win at all is that the GOP platform itself is unpopular enough to override their systematic advantages. If they ran a slight less shitty platform they could potentially dominate elections. But they can't because they just can't bring their base and a lot the moderates easily under the same tent.
I think it's somewhat useful though in that it does bring up the size and diversity of the coalition the Democrats are working with in order to build a majority. And that's a big part of what you need to do as a party.
And also Biden just isn't that far right except in comparison to like Warren and Sanders and where we in this thread might want candidates to be.
Also Biden's support is like 50% of black people, so it's a bad hypothetical on that front. Just saying.
Anyway, the point of this long rambly post is that you can't win a presidential election in the US without scooping up a bunch of moderate voters.
It is really frustrating that two of the largest economies in the country are basically yadda yadda yadda'd. Like california could literally be its own first world country.
pleasepaypreacher.net
it's certainly trying to be a first world country amid america's slow descent
You can't win a presidential campaign without motivating YOUR moderate voters
Almost all moderates strongly favor one party or another. What matters is getting yours to the polls NOT appealing too all moderates in general.
One of the best and worst things about modern America is how social media is allowing people to examine America's institutions in depth and forming their own opinions about them. Best because a lot of those institutions were founded on racist, sexist, or otherwise dire ideas and need to be re-examined. Worst because so many of these institutions were designed so that they would be difficult or impossible to change under the existing rules, and that leads to a lot of cynicism and defeatism.
The Sanders campaign is trying to do something about it:
Jane Sanders is Bernie Sanders's wife and David Sirota is Sanders's speechwriter.
(Like seriously, Sanders got Biden to drop that insulting "I didn't voted for the Iraq War" attempt of gaslighting people, but is not the biggest story).
This is the actual scary thing with this election. The democratic party is still stuck in this mindset that they need to control the media narrative and aren't paying attention to how that media narrative filters down to the actual voters and that they need to control that instead. The right already knows this and is leaning hard on that shit.
Also, Twitter.
Which, reflexively, fuck Twitter, for the usual eight course meal grocery list worth of reasons.
All in one day with ranked voting. Ideally with the campaigns publicly funded and PACs outlawed while we're living the dream.
Sadly the dirtbag left will latch on to any reason to scream at someone and the media just threw gasoline on their fire.
As someone who likes them both with respect to policy, this is a serious train wreck
"We believe in the people and their 'wisdom' as if there was some special secret entrance to knowledge that barred to anyone who had ever learned anything." - Friedrich Nietzsche