While cleanse remains the pinnacle of this example (both caster and target have to be aware of when you use it); the win rates of every activatable talent is suppressed compared to talents that are passive bonuses.
Regardless of skill level, those talents have a learning curve of when to use them, but the win rate data is showing everyone
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
You pick convection in ARAM to assert dominance.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Every character in this game is a toolbox. And, like the toolbox at your house, they're full of things you might not use very often, but that you'll be really grateful to have when you do need them. Like, in my personal life, I use the absolute fuck out of my screwdrivers -- whether it's because I have to open up a toy to put fresh batteries in, or fix a hinge on a kitchen cabinet, or put together a kid's bed, or whatever -- screwdrivers get used like 90% more often than any other tool that I have out in my garage. Now, even if I polled everyone online, and the consensus agreed that screwdrivers are the most widely-applicable, generally useful, and most popular tool for personal use ... you'd still look like a fucking moron trying to pound a nail into place with a fucking Phillips-Head.
It's the same thing with talent builds in HotS: oftentimes, you'll find that certain builds are just generally more useful than others -- they provide you with the functionality you need to handle most situations you'll come across in your matches. But you also have to learn to recognize when the other builds are applicable. It's a sign of strong player growth when you can make informed, game-by-game and moment-by-moment decisions about your talents that break away from the established builds because you've developed enough game-sense to understand how to use your entire kit effectively.
The next time that someone tries to tell you that any particular character has only one viable build or playstyle, imagine that person trying to tighten up a pipe with an Allen key.
The idea that there's a one-size-fits-all-100%-always-correct build is hilariously wrong, anyway. The vast, vast majority of players would be better off never listening to pros or high-level players when choosing talents.
This is an important aspect to look at since the environment that pros play at is different than the clown Fiesta of lower tier play and bot matches. For example, from what I've seen in higher tiers of play team fights are intense where both parties try to create an opening that the rest of the team can quickly capitalize on and exploit to win the fight. To that end I'd say that talents that grant high impulse performance are more desirable in that setting. Short term power spikes like cleanses to counter cc, armor boosts, etc.
Meanwhile in the clown Fiesta, teams are disorganized messes. Neither team is as likely to capitalize on the openings that are created. So those high impulse tools that can create an opening or counter openings aren't as valuable and talents that provide more long term endurance can get you more mileage as the teams ineffectually flail at each other for prolonged periods of time.
To try to explain a bit more what I'm saying, consider a simple cleanse. At high levels a cleanse is extremely potent since CC can be the kiss of death that enables the enemy team to pounce on a teammate. Cleansing the CC can save their life and is therfore very potent. But when the enemy team is disorganized, they might not be capable of exploiting the CC. If the opponents can't exploit the CC, then cleansing the CC is less impactful. The cleanse can even be downright worthless if we step down to a lower level of competency where the user is not aware enough to notice CC'd teammates in time to actually cleanse the CC. In the hands of that player, taking the cleanse is not the right choice. But in the hands of a pro player in a pro environment, that cleanse may vastly eclipse all other choices.
The idea that there's a one-size-fits-all-100%-always-correct build is hilariously wrong, anyway. The vast, vast majority of players would be better off never listening to pros or high-level players when choosing talents.
I disagree. OK sure: no, there is not a 100%-always-correct build.
But there's a 50%-correct build, a 40%-correct-build, and then a few random other edge cases. Or there's a 70%-correct build that has a bunch of variations for the remaining 30%, but the 70% one still works OK. Or there's some build flexibility among ~2 talents on each tier, but the other 1-2 are trash and you should never take them (looking at you, Convection :P ), so just following a build will get you something better than random choice.
So like.... sure, if you just follow a set build are you going to be optimal every game? No. But for the vast majority of players who, remember, are not good at this game :P , following a build probably gets them better than what they'd do on their own. Convection, oy, still have people taking that :P .
I think if you follow the correct advice, you will do better. But it's virtually impossible for any single player to know which advice is correct, particularly at lower skill levels (insert Dunning-Kruger reference here), and they will naturally gravitate towards what the "experts" will tell them to do.
My go-to example in this case is Cleanse. Everyone who is actually good at this game will tell you that Cleanse and Cleanse-like talents are about as mandatory as any talent can be. However, Cleanse has always had a losing win rate at everything below GM/pro play (sometimes not even having a positive win rate at the GM level). Why? Because the amount of skill required to properly leverage Cleanse is, for 99.9% of the population, unachievable.
legit why i take Blood and Thunder or Grounding Totem over Cleanse as Rehgar. i do not have the reaction time necessary to cleanse off most CC. adding to that, most of the time even when you DO cleanse something off, the burden of responsibility then falls on the player that got CCed to manage to make use of said cleanse in the first place. and if they can't do that, you are better off just healing through it and taking a different talent instead.
i also tend to gravitate a lot towards what i call "general value" talents, which are talents that give complete unconditional value. talents that will help you no matter what, in any situation, without any sort of weird finagling attached to them to get them to work. a prime example would be Johanna's 13 talents. there's Roar, which gives a small damage increase on Punish baseline but a massive damage increase if it hits 2 targets. there's Blessed Hammer, which adds a decent amount of flat damage (and tanks scale incredibly well with flat damage increases over percent based ones). but the problem is that both of those have weird finagling attached to them. Punish's damage is pretty low, so 25% more damage isn't a lot (or even noticeable, really) so the real value of that talent comes from hitting two people with it; something you're not always going to be able to do. Blessed Hammer, despite having decent damage, spirals in a very weird pattern and it's difficult to make use of it. let's compare that to Holy Fury, which is literally just Burning Rage, which always gives you value no matter what. or, yknow, "general value."
also Thrall is a character i've been picking up again recently and that dude has CRAZY amounts of varying talent builds. all three of his level ones are viable. Crash is great for the 4 stack or maps where you're fighting over a central location without minion interference (volskaya, alterac, etc etc). Echo is kind of just good all the time, but you need to actively put effort into completing the quest and sometimes that can be a bit slow going. Rolling Thunder gives you better poke, is better in the solo lane, and gives a source of % damage. all three are good, all three have their uses.
at level 7 you've got Maelstrom Weapon, Ancestral Wrath, and Follow Through. Maelstrom is great, because of the infinite stacking and your autos will hit like trucks, but you don't always take that. if the enemy team is particularly ranged heavy and/or very flighty (like just not really engaging you and staying away from you), you don't take Maelstrom. even though i take Maelstrom most of the time, that's still a case where you examine your comp vs the enemy's comp and ask if there's a better pick. and in that scenario maybe you take Follow Through instead. still a great talent, all you need is that single auto to get the value, you don't need to worry about stacking. or maybe there's a tank you want to burn down, you take Ancestral Wrath.
just some examples! nothing's ever really that clear cut.
I'm in the middle of a split-pushing hero phase. Samuro, Murky, Falstad, and even Probie (didn't last long though). Of all of them, I think Samuro has been the most fun. He starts off really slow, but each talent unlocked seems to make things way easier and his overall value much higher. Giving healing on his Wind Walk and dropping his spinning ult to 25 seconds are bonkers good.
By 13, it's clear a wave with Ult, E to heal and zip to the next lane, Q that lane, E to back to the first lane, wash/rinse/repeat.
Although I still can't figure out how to properly time that Hearthstone + Clone Swap insta-heal that Fan does.
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Legends of Runeterra: MNCdover #moc
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I'm in the middle of a split-pushing hero phase. Samuro, Murky, Falstad, and even Probie (didn't last long though). Of all of them, I think Samuro has been the most fun. He starts off really slow, but each talent unlocked seems to make things way easier and his overall value much higher. Giving healing on his Wind Walk and dropping his spinning ult to 25 seconds are bonkers good.
By 13, it's clear a wave with Ult, E to heal and zip to the next lane, Q that lane, E to back to the first lane, wash/rinse/repeat.
Although I still can't figure out how to properly time that Hearthstone + Clone Swap insta-heal that Fan does.
Holy Fury's damage is so negligible into actually contributing to a kill.
At best it pads your numbers slightly which don't matter as a tank.
If it only gets damage on one target it's not doing anything and any other scenario the other two talents will do more damage
i mean, it's basically additional damage on each autoattack on its own separate timer that also hits as aoe
that's like, legit really good. especially when johanna's whole thing is like, being tanky as fuck and Not Dying, it adds up. any flat damage increases a tank can get are typically worthwhile.
Every character in this game is a toolbox. And, like the toolbox at your house, they're full of things you might not use very often, but that you'll be really grateful to have when you do need them. Like, in my personal life, I use the absolute fuck out of my screwdrivers -- whether it's because I have to open up a toy to put fresh batteries in, or fix a hinge on a kitchen cabinet, or put together a kid's bed, or whatever -- screwdrivers get used like 90% more often than any other tool that I have out in my garage. Now, even if I polled everyone online, and the consensus agreed that screwdrivers are the most widely-applicable, generally useful, and most popular tool for personal use ... you'd still look like a fucking moron trying to pound a nail into place with a fucking Phillips-Head.
It's the same thing with talent builds in HotS: oftentimes, you'll find that certain builds are just generally more useful than others -- they provide you with the functionality you need to handle most situations you'll come across in your matches. But you also have to learn to recognize when the other builds are applicable. It's a sign of strong player growth when you can make informed, game-by-game and moment-by-moment decisions about your talents that break away from the established builds because you've developed enough game-sense to understand how to use your entire kit effectively.
The next time that someone tries to tell you that any particular character has only one viable build or playstyle, imagine that person trying to tighten up a pipe with an Allen key.
Lol this scrub can't even drive a nail with a Screwdriver build GTFO nub
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Clearly deathwing sucks you guys
plz buff blizz kthx
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I will note that was a mid diamond SL game and yes they all fucking stood in theQ fire like it was their gat damn job
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I will note that was a mid diamond SL game and yes they all fucking stood in theQ fire like it was their gat damn job
Bruh, the longer you stay in the fire, the longer DW will channel it. Then he has a longer recharge time! Noob!
MNC Dover on
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I will note that was a mid diamond SL game and yes they all fucking stood in theQ fire like it was their gat damn job
Bruh, the longer you stay in the fire, the longer DW will channel it. Then he has a longer recharge time! Noob!
shit i've been owned
u owned urself when u decided to play q build deathwing 8-)
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I will note that was a mid diamond SL game and yes they all fucking stood in theQ fire like it was their gat damn job
hmmmm
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
literally no one stands in the fucking fire when i play deathwing
wind up Q, they sidestep, you feel like a dummy
i'm not sure what kind of fucking voodoo magic munkus is employing to go up against horrendously bad players but those sure aren't the players i'm running into
Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
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I may not agree with your main conclusion, but hi5 on this. This we can agree on
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Regardless of skill level, those talents have a learning curve of when to use them, but the win rate data is showing everyone
It's the same thing with talent builds in HotS: oftentimes, you'll find that certain builds are just generally more useful than others -- they provide you with the functionality you need to handle most situations you'll come across in your matches. But you also have to learn to recognize when the other builds are applicable. It's a sign of strong player growth when you can make informed, game-by-game and moment-by-moment decisions about your talents that break away from the established builds because you've developed enough game-sense to understand how to use your entire kit effectively.
The next time that someone tries to tell you that any particular character has only one viable build or playstyle, imagine that person trying to tighten up a pipe with an Allen key.
The trouble is that in ARAM you always take globe talents no matter what, and convection directly contradicts this.
This is an important aspect to look at since the environment that pros play at is different than the clown Fiesta of lower tier play and bot matches. For example, from what I've seen in higher tiers of play team fights are intense where both parties try to create an opening that the rest of the team can quickly capitalize on and exploit to win the fight. To that end I'd say that talents that grant high impulse performance are more desirable in that setting. Short term power spikes like cleanses to counter cc, armor boosts, etc.
Meanwhile in the clown Fiesta, teams are disorganized messes. Neither team is as likely to capitalize on the openings that are created. So those high impulse tools that can create an opening or counter openings aren't as valuable and talents that provide more long term endurance can get you more mileage as the teams ineffectually flail at each other for prolonged periods of time.
To try to explain a bit more what I'm saying, consider a simple cleanse. At high levels a cleanse is extremely potent since CC can be the kiss of death that enables the enemy team to pounce on a teammate. Cleansing the CC can save their life and is therfore very potent. But when the enemy team is disorganized, they might not be capable of exploiting the CC. If the opponents can't exploit the CC, then cleansing the CC is less impactful. The cleanse can even be downright worthless if we step down to a lower level of competency where the user is not aware enough to notice CC'd teammates in time to actually cleanse the CC. In the hands of that player, taking the cleanse is not the right choice. But in the hands of a pro player in a pro environment, that cleanse may vastly eclipse all other choices.
Armchair: 4098-3704-2012
legit why i take Blood and Thunder or Grounding Totem over Cleanse as Rehgar. i do not have the reaction time necessary to cleanse off most CC. adding to that, most of the time even when you DO cleanse something off, the burden of responsibility then falls on the player that got CCed to manage to make use of said cleanse in the first place. and if they can't do that, you are better off just healing through it and taking a different talent instead.
i also tend to gravitate a lot towards what i call "general value" talents, which are talents that give complete unconditional value. talents that will help you no matter what, in any situation, without any sort of weird finagling attached to them to get them to work. a prime example would be Johanna's 13 talents. there's Roar, which gives a small damage increase on Punish baseline but a massive damage increase if it hits 2 targets. there's Blessed Hammer, which adds a decent amount of flat damage (and tanks scale incredibly well with flat damage increases over percent based ones). but the problem is that both of those have weird finagling attached to them. Punish's damage is pretty low, so 25% more damage isn't a lot (or even noticeable, really) so the real value of that talent comes from hitting two people with it; something you're not always going to be able to do. Blessed Hammer, despite having decent damage, spirals in a very weird pattern and it's difficult to make use of it. let's compare that to Holy Fury, which is literally just Burning Rage, which always gives you value no matter what. or, yknow, "general value."
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
at level 7 you've got Maelstrom Weapon, Ancestral Wrath, and Follow Through. Maelstrom is great, because of the infinite stacking and your autos will hit like trucks, but you don't always take that. if the enemy team is particularly ranged heavy and/or very flighty (like just not really engaging you and staying away from you), you don't take Maelstrom. even though i take Maelstrom most of the time, that's still a case where you examine your comp vs the enemy's comp and ask if there's a better pick. and in that scenario maybe you take Follow Through instead. still a great talent, all you need is that single auto to get the value, you don't need to worry about stacking. or maybe there's a tank you want to burn down, you take Ancestral Wrath.
just some examples! nothing's ever really that clear cut.
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
I'm in the middle of a split-pushing hero phase. Samuro, Murky, Falstad, and even Probie (didn't last long though). Of all of them, I think Samuro has been the most fun. He starts off really slow, but each talent unlocked seems to make things way easier and his overall value much higher. Giving healing on his Wind Walk and dropping his spinning ult to 25 seconds are bonkers good.
By 13, it's clear a wave with Ult, E to heal and zip to the next lane, Q that lane, E to back to the first lane, wash/rinse/repeat.
Although I still can't figure out how to properly time that Hearthstone + Clone Swap insta-heal that Fan does.
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Holy Fury's damage is so negligible into actually contributing to a kill.
At best it pads your numbers slightly which don't matter as a tank.
If it only gets damage on one target it's not doing anything and any other scenario the other two talents will do more damage
The swap is just q, b, shift+d
It's because I came back, lol.
i mean, it's basically additional damage on each autoattack on its own separate timer that also hits as aoe
that's like, legit really good. especially when johanna's whole thing is like, being tanky as fuck and Not Dying, it adds up. any flat damage increases a tank can get are typically worthwhile.
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hm???? hmmmmm??????????
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
1v1, no items, fox only, final destination
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Clearly deathwing sucks you guys
plz buff blizz kthx
“Off laning”
In reality, dying mostly
Bruh, the longer you stay in the fire, the longer DW will channel it. Then he has a longer recharge time! Noob!
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shit i've been owned
u owned urself when u decided to play q build deathwing 8-)
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
hmmmm
Battle.net Tag: Dibby#1582
They did it during the masters/grand masters game too!
People just do it! It's easy!
I'm half convinced munkus is right and we should just count on people being dumb
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literally no one stands in the fucking fire when i play deathwing
wind up Q, they sidestep, you feel like a dummy
i'm not sure what kind of fucking voodoo magic munkus is employing to go up against horrendously bad players but those sure aren't the players i'm running into
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It was a custom game :P
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Well, against :P
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Megamuffin is a GM, kime.
Bagging on them is my job.