Star Trek: Picard is out! Spoilers in effect!

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Yeah I agree, I love the episode, I'm just pointing out that in this one, the technobabble is based on linguistics rather than, I dunno, tachyon particles.

    Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.
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  • honoverehonovere Registered User regular
    Maybe it would've worked better for me if the writers had come up with more than a handful of sentences for them Picard's super short cliff notes version of Gilgamesh and Enkidu had as much content as all of their language over the whole episode.

  • WinkyWinky rRegistered User regular
    I grade Darmok on a curve because, like much of Trek, it has only gotten more relevant

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  • GnizmoGnizmo Registered User regular
    Darmok works as an allegory but absolutely falls apart from a technical perspective. So, in other words, it's exactly like every other Star Trek episode, ever.

    All language is based on imagery and metaphor, and is intrinsically linked with the context from which it developed and in which it is used. There's absolutely no reason the universal translator wouldn't work in this case unless it doesn't work for pretty much every single Earth-based language.

    See you say that, but it gets wonky when you put it in practice. As an example I offer you a board game my beloved spouse and I played with a couple of friends. It is a team based game, but all communication has to be done so everyone can hear it. Upon learning this rule I get a stupid smile on my face and say "Darkmok and Jelad at Tenagra." To which she replies "Temba, his arms wide." Our friend not explaining the rules then looks at his partner and saws "We're screwed." Both knew it had something to do with Star Trek, and it was in English, but could not derive any meaning from it.

    We eventually went into Discworld and television references we believed in neither had seen. With a perfect understanding of each word we chose they were lost because the words had no consistent meaning, and the context was never established during the game. They even hint at this in the episode where they try to track down exactly which historical figure they might be referencing when trying to talk to them. Is it perfect? No, but I can see why a society that hasn't had to work to interpret any language for a long time would struggle to solve this particular puzzle.

    On a most certainly unrelated note everyone refuses to play said game against my beloved spouse and myself. Buncha sore losers.

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  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Darmok raises the question of how do they teach such a language to their own children. If everything in the language is a metaphor, how do you gain that knowledge of the background meaning in the first place without having more basic language structures?

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
    TOGSolid
  • chrono_travellerchrono_traveller Registered User regular
    Darmok raises the question of how do they teach such a language to their own children. If everything in the language is a metaphor, how do you gain that knowledge of the background meaning in the first place without having more basic language structures?

    They take their kid to an isolated area with a dangerous monster, and they stay there until the kid gets it, or one of them dies. Obviously!

    The trouble with having an open mind, of course, is that people will insist on coming along and trying to put things in it. ~ Terry Pratchett

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  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Darmok raises the question of how do they teach such a language to their own children. If everything in the language is a metaphor, how do you gain that knowledge of the background meaning in the first place without having more basic language structures?

    They take their kid to an isolated area with a dangerous monster, and they stay there until the kid gets it, or one of them dies. Obviously!

    "Dad, his shuttle ascending."

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
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  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    edited February 12
    Probably a lot of artwork depicting the events and people which serve as the lexicon of their language. I would imagine theater productions and music help to retain and propogate meaning to successive generations as well.

    GONG-00 on
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  • AnzekayAnzekay Registered User regular
    Gnizmo wrote: »
    Darmok works as an allegory but absolutely falls apart from a technical perspective. So, in other words, it's exactly like every other Star Trek episode, ever.

    All language is based on imagery and metaphor, and is intrinsically linked with the context from which it developed and in which it is used. There's absolutely no reason the universal translator wouldn't work in this case unless it doesn't work for pretty much every single Earth-based language.

    See you say that, but it gets wonky when you put it in practice. As an example I offer you a board game my beloved spouse and I played with a couple of friends. It is a team based game, but all communication has to be done so everyone can hear it. Upon learning this rule I get a stupid smile on my face and say "Darkmok and Jelad at Tenagra." To which she replies "Temba, his arms wide." Our friend not explaining the rules then looks at his partner and saws "We're screwed." Both knew it had something to do with Star Trek, and it was in English, but could not derive any meaning from it.

    We eventually went into Discworld and television references we believed in neither had seen. With a perfect understanding of each word we chose they were lost because the words had no consistent meaning, and the context was never established during the game. They even hint at this in the episode where they try to track down exactly which historical figure they might be referencing when trying to talk to them. Is it perfect? No, but I can see why a society that hasn't had to work to interpret any language for a long time would struggle to solve this particular puzzle.

    On a most certainly unrelated note everyone refuses to play said game against my beloved spouse and myself. Buncha sore losers.

    um I fucking love this story

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  • autono-wally, erotibot300autono-wally, erotibot300 love machine Registered User regular
    Darmok raises the question of how do they teach such a language to their own children. If everything in the language is a metaphor, how do you gain that knowledge of the background meaning in the first place without having more basic language structures?

    TanagraTube.com has all the memes

    kFJhXwE.jpgkFJhXwE.jpg
  • NorgothNorgoth cardiffRegistered User regular
    Darmok raises the question of how do they teach such a language to their own children. If everything in the language is a metaphor, how do you gain that knowledge of the background meaning in the first place without having more basic language structures?

    TanagraTube.com has all the memes

    This is actually an excellent point, because memes can become really twisted and esoteric, but you understand them through knowing the base memes that create them.

    Like this pertinent example

    kth47m918apf.png

    This only makes sense if you understand both cultural references it's making. It's kind of similar to the idea the episode was trying to convey.

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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Disco11 wrote: »
    About the big hole....

    I've been talking to my friends about this for a while and they all think i'm off base but..... Maybe the Romulans created the Borg? Either as a weapon or as some form of a species "upgrade". this would track on why the Borg cube went through collapse when they assimilated the Romulans. They built a backdoor so they could not be assimilated in that way.
    As a wild theory wouldn't it make more sense to say that the emotionless Vulcans are the robot people and they kicked the Romulans off their home planet in a terminator-esque AI uprising?

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
  • PhillisherePhillishere Registered User regular
    edited February 12
    Casual wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    About the big hole....

    I've been talking to my friends about this for a while and they all think i'm off base but..... Maybe the Romulans created the Borg? Either as a weapon or as some form of a species "upgrade". this would track on why the Borg cube went through collapse when they assimilated the Romulans. They built a backdoor so they could not be assimilated in that way.
    As a wild theory wouldn't it make more sense to say that the emotionless Vulcans are the robot people and they kicked the Romulans off their home planet in a terminator-esque AI uprising?
    Vulcan’s aren’t emotionless. They are super repressed because they make toddlers look stable when they let their emotions out.

    Phillishere on
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  • CasualCasual Wiggle Wiggle Wiggle Flap Flap Flap Registered User regular
    Casual wrote: »
    Disco11 wrote: »
    About the big hole....

    I've been talking to my friends about this for a while and they all think i'm off base but..... Maybe the Romulans created the Borg? Either as a weapon or as some form of a species "upgrade". this would track on why the Borg cube went through collapse when they assimilated the Romulans. They built a backdoor so they could not be assimilated in that way.
    As a wild theory wouldn't it make more sense to say that the emotionless Vulcans are the robot people and they kicked the Romulans off their home planet in a terminator-esque AI uprising?
    Vulcan’s aren’t emotionless. They are super repressed because they make toddlers look stable when they let their emotions out.
    Almost like machines trying to synthesise thought processes they don't understand because they have no evolutionary basis for them!

    i write amazing erotic fiction

    its all about anthropomorphic dicks doing everyday things like buying shoes for their scrotum-feet
    Winky wrote: »
    Corgis are totally the white people of dogs
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I'll say it again:
    I really hope the theory y'all are bouncing around doesn't turn out to be true, 'cause it strikes me, personally, as a profoundly bad and dumb retcon. :(

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  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    edited February 12
    ok who cares about this new show i just found out some real shit

    ufysjg00k2wm.png

    so much so spot here but most potent is probably brent spiners hand sneaking into the pocket in front

    surrealitycheck on
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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Darmok raises the question of how do they teach such a language to their own children. If everything in the language is a metaphor, how do you gain that knowledge of the background meaning in the first place without having more basic language structures?

    Honestly, it would be exactly the same way that we teach language to our children.

    It's like when you hear the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black" in childhood and you come to understand it through context. You don't also need to understand that kettles used to be made of silver, and silver tarnishes black, while pots are made of cast iron and start out black. Hardly anyone in modern times who has heard of or used that phrase has ever polished a silver kettle.

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  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Darmok raises the question of how do they teach such a language to their own children. If everything in the language is a metaphor, how do you gain that knowledge of the background meaning in the first place without having more basic language structures?

    Honestly, it would be exactly the same way that we teach language to our children.

    It's like when you hear the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black" in childhood and you come to understand it through context. You don't also need to understand that kettles used to be made of silver, and silver tarnishes black, while pots are made of cast iron and start out black. Hardly anyone in modern times who has heard of or used that phrase has ever polished a silver kettle.

    But if you say that phrase and I ask you "what does that mean?", you would actually be able to explain it it simpler, non-metaphorical terms. Which is how you normally teach new metaphors to people because there are practical limits to self learning through context. If you could only explain it by replying with other metaphors, if I don't already know the "language", I would have the same "what does that mean?" question for each one. If it's metaphors all the way down, you can never get to a base meaning for anything.

    And there's also the issue of specificity. How do you say simple things like "Hand me that 3/8 wrench" unless there's some weirdly specific metaphor about someone giving someone a 3/8 wrench. And if there are metaphors like that for every possible size wrench, then they're not metaphors any more so the whole idea of a language entirely of metaphors breaks down.

    It's an ok concept to use as a plot device for that episode, it'd just be useless as an actual language. They'd certainly never be able to develop math, science, and engineering to become a spacefaring race with it.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
    Commander ZoomTofystedeth
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Darmok raises the question of how do they teach such a language to their own children. If everything in the language is a metaphor, how do you gain that knowledge of the background meaning in the first place without having more basic language structures?

    Honestly, it would be exactly the same way that we teach language to our children.

    It's like when you hear the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black" in childhood and you come to understand it through context. You don't also need to understand that kettles used to be made of silver, and silver tarnishes black, while pots are made of cast iron and start out black. Hardly anyone in modern times who has heard of or used that phrase has ever polished a silver kettle.

    But if you say that phrase and I ask you "what does that mean?", you would actually be able to explain it it simpler, non-metaphorical terms. Which is how you normally teach new metaphors to people because there are practical limits to self learning through context. If you could only explain it by replying with other metaphors, if I don't already know the "language", I would have the same "what does that mean?" question for each one. If it's metaphors all the way down, you can never get to a base meaning for anything.

    And there's also the issue of specificity. How do you say simple things like "Hand me that 3/8 wrench" unless there's some weirdly specific metaphor about someone giving someone a 3/8 wrench. And if there are metaphors like that for every possible size wrench, then they're not metaphors any more so the whole idea of a language entirely of metaphors breaks down.

    It's an ok concept to use as a plot device for that episode, it'd just be useless as an actual language. They'd certainly never be able to develop math, science, and engineering to become a spacefaring race with it.

    I mean you can also apply my descriptions above to just regular words. A child can be standing before a giant vehicle, and say, "what is that?" and you say "a tractor!", at no point do you need to explain to the child that the word "tractor" comes from the Latin "tractus" which means "pull." The history of the word isn't really important, you just explain this word means this thing. I would think metaphor-language is similar - this metaphor means this thing. Maybe you think they pack too many ideas into too small of a phrase, but we haven't heard the entire language, and additionally the other captain probably used as simple language as possible to help Picard understand - he understood that he needed to repeat the same "word" (in their case, an entire phrase for a word) over and over again until Picard was able to understand.

  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    It's also great as a "secret language", like Gnizmo's anecdote above, for obfuscating and coding meaning while otherwise communicating "in the clear". But again, in that context, the whole reason to use it is its opacity to those who don't have the same cultural referents - the same "vocabulary", as it were.

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    The thing about the Tamarian language is that the only thing stopping the Universal Translator from working should just be exposure over time. Otherwise Universal Translators wouldn't work at all.

    Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.
    Commander ZoomTofystedeth
  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Cambiata wrote: »
    Darmok raises the question of how do they teach such a language to their own children. If everything in the language is a metaphor, how do you gain that knowledge of the background meaning in the first place without having more basic language structures?

    Honestly, it would be exactly the same way that we teach language to our children.

    It's like when you hear the phrase "the pot calling the kettle black" in childhood and you come to understand it through context. You don't also need to understand that kettles used to be made of silver, and silver tarnishes black, while pots are made of cast iron and start out black. Hardly anyone in modern times who has heard of or used that phrase has ever polished a silver kettle.

    But if you say that phrase and I ask you "what does that mean?", you would actually be able to explain it it simpler, non-metaphorical terms. Which is how you normally teach new metaphors to people because there are practical limits to self learning through context. If you could only explain it by replying with other metaphors, if I don't already know the "language", I would have the same "what does that mean?" question for each one. If it's metaphors all the way down, you can never get to a base meaning for anything.

    And there's also the issue of specificity. How do you say simple things like "Hand me that 3/8 wrench" unless there's some weirdly specific metaphor about someone giving someone a 3/8 wrench. And if there are metaphors like that for every possible size wrench, then they're not metaphors any more so the whole idea of a language entirely of metaphors breaks down.

    It's an ok concept to use as a plot device for that episode, it'd just be useless as an actual language. They'd certainly never be able to develop math, science, and engineering to become a spacefaring race with it.

    I mean you can also apply my descriptions above to just regular words. A child can be standing before a giant vehicle, and say, "what is that?" and you say "a tractor!", at no point do you need to explain to the child that the word "tractor" comes from the Latin "tractus" which means "pull." The history of the word isn't really important, you just explain this word means this thing. I would think metaphor-language is similar - this metaphor means this thing. Maybe you think they pack too many ideas into too small of a phrase, but we haven't heard the entire language, and additionally the other captain probably used as simple language as possible to help Picard understand - he understood that he needed to repeat the same "word" (in their case, an entire phrase for a word) over and over again until Picard was able to understand.

    "Metaphor = object" is not a metaphor though. At that point it's just the name of the object, aka a noun.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
    Tofystedeth
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Language itself is a metaphor. The word "chair" is not an actual chair.

    Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.
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  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    I think it helps if you think of it not as their entire language being metaphor, but maybe only more abstract concepts like peace and negotiation. Like, obviously there's enough there that the translator can pick up proper nouns, posessives, physical objects like arms and walls, descriptors like wide open.

    So in the wrench example, they might say something like "Bob, on Christmas, the 3/8 wrench. "

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Right - if you point at a giant red truck and say "firetruck" then a small child will call any large, crimson vehicle (or vehicle-shaped thing) as a "firetruck". So the "meaning" of the word "firetruck" is "big red boxy thing". To her, there is no association with fires or trucks until you add a referent to those things and set further semantic boundaries.

    The Universal Translator would, one assumes, work the same way. It doesn't give a shit who Darmok and Jalad are, or where Tanagra is. If you are using the audio pattern consisting of "Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra" to indicate "teamwork", then that's the primary correlation it will establish. The issue is whether or not it has enough exposure to the phrase being used to extract that relationship or not, much like you have to point at different types of trucks before the concept of "truck" fully develops (and even then, reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes a truck).

    Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    I mean, we don't really know how the universal translator works and never really have. It's just a writer's convenience. If such a device truly existed, we would never have heard words like Qapla' because the universal translator would just have Worf saying "Success!" in a really aggressive tone every time he used the word.

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    I mean, we don't really know how the universal translator works and never really have. It's just a writer's convenience. If such a device truly existed, we would never have heard words like Qapla' because the universal translator would just have Worf saying "Success!" in a really aggressive tone every time he used the word.

    I still have yet to hear a good explanation for why Klingon doesn't get translated half the time.

    Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.
  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    the translator would know its linguistic frame! any such system would know the lexicon and translate accordingly, then use semantic processing to work out what the target audience of an utterance has in the way of linguistic capabilities etc

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  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    also, every homeworld is called Dirt.
    every single one.

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  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    the translator would know its linguistic frame! any such system would know the lexicon and translate accordingly, then use semantic processing to work out what the target audience of an utterance has in the way of linguistic capabilities etc

    A wild surrealitycheck appears!

    Maybe you have a point but this still don't explain how the translator switches between Klingon and English when a Qo'nos native comes aboard, smarty pants.

  • surrealitychecksurrealitycheck lonely, but not unloved dreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    the translator would know its linguistic frame! any such system would know the lexicon and translate accordingly, then use semantic processing to work out what the target audience of an utterance has in the way of linguistic capabilities etc

    A wild surrealitycheck appears!

    Maybe you have a point but this still don't explain how the translator switches between Klingon and English when a Qo'nos native comes aboard, smarty pants.

    deep learning.... big data... neural netwroks... the cloud.... amazon.com...

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    edited February 12
    That Twitter thread is basically the opening creak of the Pandora's Box that is the philosophy of language.

    Inquisitor77 on
    Three things in human life are important: the first is to be kind; the second is to be kind; and the third is to be kind.
    Cambiata
  • CambiataCambiata Commander Shepard The likes of which even GAWD has never seenRegistered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    the translator would know its linguistic frame! any such system would know the lexicon and translate accordingly, then use semantic processing to work out what the target audience of an utterance has in the way of linguistic capabilities etc

    A wild surrealitycheck appears!

    Maybe you have a point but this still don't explain how the translator switches between Klingon and English when a Qo'nos native comes aboard, smarty pants.

    deep learning.... big data... neural netwroks... the cloud.... amazon.com...

    THE CLOUD DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT. GOOD NIGHT!

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  • RMS OceanicRMS Oceanic Registered User regular
    The Football Club technically called New New New New City

  • The WolfmanThe Wolfman Registered User regular
    Meanwhile the inventor of the universal translator is sitting in their chair and watching this entire dilema play out, and saying:

    "Yes. All according to keikaku."

    "The sausage of Green Earth explodes with flavor like the cannon of culinary delight."
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  • TofystedethTofystedeth veni, veneri, vamoosi Registered User regular
    If you can buy into the concept of a universal translator even existing and working as well at it does, it's not a stretch to imagine it can figure out loan words from other languages becoming proper nouns in a different language.

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  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    Cambiata wrote: »
    I mean, we don't really know how the universal translator works and never really have. It's just a writer's convenience. If such a device truly existed, we would never have heard words like Qapla' because the universal translator would just have Worf saying "Success!" in a really aggressive tone every time he used the word.

    I still have yet to hear a good explanation for why Klingon doesn't get translated half the time.

    Because it sounds cool when it doesn't.

    Communicating from the last of the Babylon Stations.
    TofystedethCambiataAbsoluteZero
  • wanderingwandering Registered User regular
    Jacobkosh wrote: »
    First off, and this is sort of a nitpick but also sort of not, they have three characters named Raffi, Rizzo, and Rios. As a friend put it, "see me after class." This is TV writing 101; you don't have two characters named Maxwell and...Haxwell or something. It's not some kind of insurmountable obstancle but it breaks the flow for a crucial second or two here and there as you furrow your brow to try and recall who is who and it's like...why.
    @JRRTolkien

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  • DanHibikiDanHibiki Registered User regular
    also, every homeworld is called Dirt.
    every single one.

    except for that one world named Water where the dolphins came from.

    Commander Zoomchrono_travellerShadowenLord_Asmodeus
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