But yes, things like Japan's and our "work or die" culture are really not helping. A fucking medical doctor knows better than to come to work at a hospital for days with a high fever (under any circumstances, let alone NOW), but cultural expectations almost always overcome common sense and training in the real world.
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TetraNitroCubaneThe DjinneratorAt the bottom of a bottleRegistered Userregular
Yeah, very much agreed on that point.
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
But yes, things like Japan's and our "work or die" culture are really not helping. A fucking medical doctor knows better than to come to work at a hospital for days with a high fever (under any circumstances, let alone NOW), but cultural expectations almost always overcome common sense and training in the real world.
Are there any cultures in the world that are happy for people to take time off when sick?
Unfortunately, you're right. What the nice man from the CDC says on the TV doesn't mean much when your boss tells you you'd better be in on time for your shift, or you're fired.
But yes, things like Japan's and our "work or die" culture are really not helping. A fucking medical doctor knows better than to come to work at a hospital for days with a high fever (under any circumstances, let alone NOW), but cultural expectations almost always overcome common sense and training in the real world.
Are there any cultures in the world that are happy for people to take time off when sick?
Most places that didnt obliterate unions, and people can take pay leave, or get sick for 10 days without being fired, or killing their chances for any promotion, even really poor countries.
Yes, with a quick verbal "boom." You take a man's peko, you deny him his dab, all that is left is to rise up and tear down the walls of Jericho with a ".....not!" -TexiKen
But yes, things like Japan's and our "work or die" culture are really not helping. A fucking medical doctor knows better than to come to work at a hospital for days with a high fever (under any circumstances, let alone NOW), but cultural expectations almost always overcome common sense and training in the real world.
Are there any cultures in the world that are happy for people to take time off when sick?
Most places that didnt obliterate unions, and people can take pay leave, or get sick for 10 days without being fired, or killing their chances for any promotion, even really poor countries.
It's amazing to talk to Germans about this stuff. As long as the doctors say they are sick, they are covered by law.
The idea that employees must work themselves to death and have no rights to medical leave even when prescribed by a physician is limited to a handful of Western nations. And the question of "does the employer..." are not as relevant when the state protects its citizens from its own wealthy business owners.:
German law requires that employees be paid 100 percent of their salary or wages by their employer during the first six weeks of sickness. Under certain circumstances, this six-week period can be triggered more than once a year.
If an employee again falls ill due to the same underlying illness, the six-week period will start again if six months have passed since the end of the last sick leave, or if one year has passed since the beginning of the first sick leave. If the underlying cause of illness is a new one, the six-week period automatically starts again.
Following the six-week period, employees are entitled to statutory/private insurance sickness benefits. The sickness allowance amounts to 70% of an employee's normal pay. The maximum period for payment of this allowance is 78 weeks.
The idea of being fired for whatever reason the boss feels like is an American peculiarity. In the UK you can’t legally ask for a doctor’s note before your employee has been off for 7 days.
I think the best part is I was already working from home, and getting my work done, while running a 102 degree fever. Dude was a fucking monster.
Working a kitchen where everyone is coughing and dripping snot because we've infected each other, and who knows how many customers, is a good way to start to question the wisdom of laissez-faire capitalism.
I think the best part is I was already working from home, and getting my work done, while running a 102 degree fever. Dude was a fucking monster.
Working a kitchen where everyone is coughing and dripping snot because we've infected each other, and who knows how many customers, is a good way to start to question the wisdom of laissez-faire capitalism.
Most of the time people get "food poisoning" from a restaurant, it isn't actually spoiled food or rat droppings, but a cook with good 'ol norovirus who should be tucked up at home in bed.
I think the best part is I was already working from home, and getting my work done, while running a 102 degree fever. Dude was a fucking monster.
Working a kitchen where everyone is coughing and dripping snot because we've infected each other, and who knows how many customers, is a good way to start to question the wisdom of laissez-faire capitalism.
Most of the time people get "food poisoning" from a restaurant, it isn't actually spoiled food or rat droppings, but a cook with good 'ol norovirus who should be tucked up at home in bed.
I mean, the truth is that if the cook skips work they could lose their job and their home. If they end up killing people through infecting them, the most likely result is that they keep their job and no one says anything.
The incentive structure makes it so that you either martyr yourself for no gain or practice your sociopathy and survive another day. It ain't a great way to run a society at the best of times, and I have a strong feeling that an actual pandemic will thrive in our culture due to this.
Phillishere on
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TetraNitroCubaneThe DjinneratorAt the bottom of a bottleRegistered Userregular
Reading over the last few replies, I realize that my workplace is very generous with our sick leave policy (I can take it whenever, and I don't need a doctor's note) compared to the rest of the US - And that it is still utter garbage compared to other places in the world with a more realistic sense of what worker protection means. Heck, if I took a week solid off for being ill without needing hospitalization, I would wonder if my job would still want me back.
One of the people diagnosed with coronavirus in the UK attended a conference near parliament last week along with about 250 other delegates - including two Labour MPs who have now cancelled all their public engagements.
The patient, who has not been named, attended the UK Bus Summit at Westminster's QEII Centre in central London on 6 February.
The event was described as the "premier bus event covering all parts of the UK".
Woof. I hope for their sake that the 250 people at that conference are okay and don't develop COVID.
It would be wild if a widespread virus outbreak in the West ended up forcing some kind of Universal Basic Income-like thing to happen, if only for a short amount of time.
But yes, things like Japan's and our "work or die" culture are really not helping. A fucking medical doctor knows better than to come to work at a hospital for days with a high fever (under any circumstances, let alone NOW), but cultural expectations almost always overcome common sense and training in the real world.
That whistleblower doctor in China was working sick for days before he died.
My work has put out a memo: If you have flu symptoms you need to be symptom free to return to work. This is a new policy, past policy was to spew pestilence over the entire office so at any given time at least one floor worth of employees is flagrantly violating the limit on how many tissue boxes you can take from the supply room.
They also clarified their sick leave policy: You get 10 days in a year, and can only use 3 consecutively, after which you start accruing attendance violations. Three violations and you are declared to have abandoned the job (meaning you lose unemployment - they lose this on appeal every time, but it takes long enough that more than half of fired employees get new jobs and give up before they ever collect and some don't even realize that you can appeal and will win, just the initial decision is always in favor of the business). Violations reset with one year of perfect attendance (not a rolling window, you can have a violation nearly two years old kept alive on the record and fuck you over).
i.e. If you get coronavirus it's time to update your resume.
Hevach on
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
It would be wild if a widespread virus outbreak in the West ended up forcing some kind of Universal Basic Income-like thing to happen, if only for a short amount of time.
You could for real make a solid argument at diverting money from the military budget like Trump did for the wall in the name of national security to fund universal healthcare. This one might not get us, but eventually we're going to have an epidemic that's completely preventable with better health and labor policy.
But yes, things like Japan's and our "work or die" culture are really not helping. A fucking medical doctor knows better than to come to work at a hospital for days with a high fever (under any circumstances, let alone NOW), but cultural expectations almost always overcome common sense and training in the real world.
That whistleblower doctor in China was working sick for days before he died.
My work has put out a memo: If you have flu symptoms you need to be symptom free to return to work. This is a new policy, past policy was to spew pestilence over the entire office so at any given time at least one floor worth of employees is flagrantly violating the limit on how many tissue boxes you can take from the supply room.
They also clarified their sick leave policy: You get 10 days in a year, and can only use 3 consecutively, after which you start accruing attendance violations. Three violations and you are declared to have abandoned the job (meaning you lose unemployment - they lose this on appeal every time, but it takes long enough that more than half of fired employees get new jobs and give up before they ever collect and some don't even realize that you can appeal and will win, just the initial decision is always in favor of the business). Violations reset with one year of perfect attendance (not a rolling window, you can have a violation nearly two years old kept alive on the record and fuck you over).
i.e. If you get coronavirus it's time to update your resume.
That is some hot bullshit.
You can't come to work but also if you don't come to work you're fired?
I can tell you why a doctor would be working with a 102 fever. I will caveat that I have only worked in dental in the US, but I assume that medical works about the same way, especially with specialty care. But here’s how it was at the multiple-doctor office I worked at.
1. Dentists are typically hired on as independent contractors. This means no sick day or PTO, if you don’t show up you don’t get paid. If you get the flu and miss 2 weeks, you don’t get fmla or sick days, you just don’t get paid. This isn’t particularly legal per se, but as far as I’m aware labor laws are very rarely enforced on employers of professional level medical personnel for Reasons.
2. Schedules are often made out weeks or months in advance, and temporary workers are very hard to come by (for some reason there just aren’t that many people with a doctorate just sitting around waiting by the phone to be called in to do fill-in work). You also can’t really just shift the work over to other providers, because they have their own schedules and patients and those are typically full with little wiggle room barring last minute cancellations. So there’s tremendous pressure, not just financially, but also from the point of view that you have patients that often have badly needed care, which will have to be delayed often weeks or months due to cancellation. For longer periods of absence you also have to worry about patients not having access to emergency care, etc.
So yeah, it’s tough, it’s set up in a pretty shitty way and I’m sure it could be handled better (a good start might be to actually enforce labor laws on professional level and salaried personel), but a lot if people are going to have the mentality of “hey, I might be sick but I can walk and talk so I’m going in”
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
But yes, things like Japan's and our "work or die" culture are really not helping. A fucking medical doctor knows better than to come to work at a hospital for days with a high fever (under any circumstances, let alone NOW), but cultural expectations almost always overcome common sense and training in the real world.
That whistleblower doctor in China was working sick for days before he died.
My work has put out a memo: If you have flu symptoms you need to be symptom free to return to work. This is a new policy, past policy was to spew pestilence over the entire office so at any given time at least one floor worth of employees is flagrantly violating the limit on how many tissue boxes you can take from the supply room.
They also clarified their sick leave policy: You get 10 days in a year, and can only use 3 consecutively, after which you start accruing attendance violations. Three violations and you are declared to have abandoned the job (meaning you lose unemployment - they lose this on appeal every time, but it takes long enough that more than half of fired employees get new jobs and give up before they ever collect and some don't even realize that you can appeal and will win, just the initial decision is always in favor of the business). Violations reset with one year of perfect attendance (not a rolling window, you can have a violation nearly two years old kept alive on the record and fuck you over).
i.e. If you get coronavirus it's time to update your resume.
Based on the sick time policy already in place, it's likely an attempt at CYA.
Yup. What they want is for people to come in sick and work, then when a customer or client gets sick at work they dump all the blame on the worker for "violationing policy"
Also they're criminals, so. (There's no way to have that policy without violating FMLA and the unemployment thing violated labor laws at least twice).
The doctor in China though..that's more likely just staffing. Heavy quarantine zones are not reknowned for having a lot of staff.
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
Oh, the US is fucked if the covid19 takes off there.
The rest of the west actually have sick time and a health system that doesn't bancrupt you, though..
Based on the sick time policy already in place, it's likely an attempt at CYA.
Yup. What they want is for people to come in sick and work, then when a customer or client gets sick at work they dump all the blame on the worker for "violationing policy"
Also they're criminals, so. (There's no way to have that policy without violating FMLA and the unemployment thing violated labor laws at least twice).
The doctor in China though..that's more likely just staffing. Heavy quarantine zones are not reknowned for having a lot of staff.
A lot fewer workplaces than you'd think are actually covered by the FMLA, there's a minimum employer size that alone exempts way more than half of workplaces. Then there's a minimum density for widespread employers, and it counts your direct employer so for a franchise store it's on the franchise owner and for conglomerates it's on the corporation that employs you, not the corporation that owns that corporation, so even if your workplace has a store on every corner you might not actually be covered.
Edit: I mean, it's worth pointing out that an awful lot of workplaces aren't technically required to pay minimum wage because of very similar requirements, but there's hills even the most penny pinching corporations are hesitant to die on.
Also, FMLA leave without prior notice still requires you to follow sick leave/call-in procedures until your leave is approved, which employers are allowed to take five days to do, and they ARE allowed to fire you under call-in policy during that time.
Edit again: As for unemployment, unemployment is insurance and always takes the employers word on the first decision. They're required to have an appeals process, which they overwhelmingly lose because employers are not truthful on claims. The law is only actually broken if they're still breaking the law after the appeal, at which point they can be civilly liable. Strangely studies have shown that almost nobody can actually afford to sue in those cases.
Jesus.. Canadian here, last year I ended up taking *two months * of consecutive sick days (mental health) and my work didn't even ask for a doctors note.. Originally they wanted me to take the second month as short term disability but they had some issues due to recently switching company insurance so they told me to not bother and just take it as sick, the US job system fucking sucks 🙁
Jesus.. Canadian here, last year I ended up taking *two months * of consecutive sick days (mental health) and my work didn't even ask for a doctors note.. Originally they wanted me to take the second month as short term disability but they had some issues due to recently switching company insurance so they told me to not bother and just take it as sick, the US job system fucking sucks 🙁
The U.S. job and healthcare system is a large reason why the country is becoming politically unstable. It puts the population under extreme physical and mental stress, because even well-paid professionals fear that a single illness that lasts more than a couple weeks can cost them their jobs.
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
Oh, the US is fucked if the covid19 takes off there.
The rest of the west actually have sick time and a health system that doesn't bancrupt you, though..
The us is not fucked. This disease would be a tragedy if it spread internationally,however, we've seen Flu viruses in memory which are as deadly to non typical risk groups as it is. For example, if you are under 55, H1N1 10 years ago was probably more dangerous to you, and thus to the smooth function of society.
The impacts to people, and in china are overwhelmingly from trying to stop the spread to save 20 million lives around the world. Once the spread has begun, then every indication is that this would behave like a flu virus which was just 5-10 x as dangerous to old people as usual.
tbloxham on
"That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
Oh, the US is fucked if the covid19 takes off there.
The rest of the west actually have sick time and a health system that doesn't bancrupt you, though..
The us is not fucked. This disease would be a tragedy if it spread internationally,however, we've seen Flu viruses in memory which are as deadly to non typical risk groups as it is. For example, if you are under 55, H1N1 10 years ago was probably more dangerous to you, and thus to the smooth function of society.
The impacts to people, and in china are overwhelmingly from trying to stop the spread to save 20 million lives around the world. Once the spread has begun, then every indication is that this would behave like a flu virus which was just 5-10 x as dangerous to old people as usual.
I think the point was that with people not having sick time readily available, SARS2 would spread fast if it got into the wild in the US.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
My shit company has a San Francisco "headquarters" but is incorporated out of Ohio so they can dodge California worker protection laws. On top of that, the parent company is Japanese, so they just about break their corporate arms patting themselves on the back for the "generous" work/sick leave they provide (and they make SURE to tell use just how giving they are). It's three weeks a year and it's a combined sick leave/PTO policy, so you'd better hope you don't get a bad flu and wipe out most of your vacation time.
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
Oh, the US is fucked if the covid19 takes off there.
The rest of the west actually have sick time and a health system that doesn't bancrupt you, though..
The us is not fucked. This disease would be a tragedy if it spread internationally,however, we've seen Flu viruses in memory which are as deadly to non typical risk groups as it is. For example, if you are under 55, H1N1 10 years ago was probably more dangerous to you, and thus to the smooth function of society.
The impacts to people, and in china are overwhelmingly from trying to stop the spread to save 20 million lives around the world. Once the spread has begun, then every indication is that this would behave like a flu virus which was just 5-10 x as dangerous to old people as usual.
I think the point was that with people not having sick time readily available, SARS2 would spread fast if it got into the wild in the US.
But, as with all diseases like this (flu, colds etc), if it breaches into the wild, then you will be infectious before you show symptoms and infectious after your symptoms have resolved. It will spread quickly, just like the flu does everywhere. Your personal experience of the virus is likely to be much the same in Germany as in the US, the factor which will change is the load on healthcare systems. And, in terms of raw number of beds, us healthcare systems are already structured around how inefficient and silly they are in terms of prevention.
My shit company has a San Francisco "headquarters" but is incorporated out of Ohio so they can dodge California worker protection laws. On top of that, the parent company is Japanese, so they just about break their corporate arms patting themselves on the back for the "generous" work/sick leave they provide (and they make SURE to tell use just how giving they are). It's three weeks a year and it's a combined sick leave/PTO policy, so you'd better hope you don't get a bad flu and wipe out most of your vacation time.
You might check on that, every interstate company I've worked for has followed the laws of the state the employee is in, not the ones where the company is. When I was working for a company out of Seattle and moved to work remote in LA, they used CA laws even though there were all of 3 of us.
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
Oh, the US is fucked if the covid19 takes off there.
The rest of the west actually have sick time and a health system that doesn't bancrupt you, though..
The us is not fucked. This disease would be a tragedy if it spread internationally,however, we've seen Flu viruses in memory which are as deadly to non typical risk groups as it is. For example, if you are under 55, H1N1 10 years ago was probably more dangerous to you, and thus to the smooth function of society.
The impacts to people, and in china are overwhelmingly from trying to stop the spread to save 20 million lives around the world. Once the spread has begun, then every indication is that this would behave like a flu virus which was just 5-10 x as dangerous to old people as usual.
I think the point was that with people not having sick time readily available, SARS2 would spread fast if it got into the wild in the US.
But, as with all diseases like this (flu, colds etc), if it breaches into the wild, then you will be infectious before you show symptoms and infectious after your symptoms have resolved. It will spread quickly, just like the flu does everywhere. Your personal experience of the virus is likely to be much the same in Germany as in the US, the factor which will change is the load on healthcare systems. And, in terms of raw number of beds, us healthcare systems are already structured around how inefficient and silly they are in terms of prevention.
I dont mean to be dismissive of the dangers here of course, but, honestly panic is probably the most dangerous symptom of this disease. Sharing facts about the virus, and considering a measured and sensible response is the right course. With this disease, it's still going to be the case that the right thing to do for 95% of patients, even those with serious symptoms, is to stay at home and rest to recover so that hospital time is available for the most seriously affected. The same as the flu.
"That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
My shit company has a San Francisco "headquarters" but is incorporated out of Ohio so they can dodge California worker protection laws. On top of that, the parent company is Japanese, so they just about break their corporate arms patting themselves on the back for the "generous" work/sick leave they provide (and they make SURE to tell use just how giving they are). It's three weeks a year and it's a combined sick leave/PTO policy, so you'd better hope you don't get a bad flu and wipe out most of your vacation time.
You might check on that, every interstate company I've worked for has followed the laws of the state the employee is in, not the ones where the company is. When I was working for a company out of Seattle and moved to work remote in LA, they used CA laws even though there were all of 3 of us.
I have actually been meaning to check on this, just haven't had the time. I've been wondering how I'm subject to WA taxes (or the lack thereof, rather) but not have any WA job laws benefiting me. I would 1000% not be surprised if my company was basically hoping I didn't look this stuff up and find out I'm actually owed a bunch of sick days instead of having to take them out of my PTO.
First time I’ve seen any sort of authority on this sort of thing saying a pandemic is likely.
Fairly terrifying if true, there’s no way worldwide medical infrastructure is going to stand up to that given the percentage of people said to require ventilators.
Yeah, things in the US will be proper fucked the moment Covid19 manages to latch onto a host that doesn't get quarantined that works in one of our many shitty services jobs. If it gets into someone healthy, there is a good chance that it'll appear as a typical cold. Given that most employers act like psychopaths towards their employees, that person will have zero incentive to take sick leave for a "cold." Chances are they don't have sick leave and they also run a high risk of being fired if they take time off. Hell, some places that do have sick leave run it the most half assed way possible, my former employer required doctor's notes in order to use sick leave. So you're fucked if you get the 24 hour stomach bug because it takes you out for a day, but chances are you aren't getting a doctors note. Also pretty sure if one were to vomit at the workplace, they still get told they need a doctor's note. It's pretty fucking stupid. So you also have the issue of some employers, that do have sick leave, forcing someone that may have some highly contiguous doing the one thing that no sane person, who knows basic disease protocol, wants them doing, leaving their home and traveling to the doctor's office, thus likely spreading what they have to more people and that clinic probably has people with weakened immune systems for various reasons (systemic health issue or their body just got done fighting an infection).
I'm wondering if Covid19 will be the next pandemic and if it'll do a great job highlighting just have fucking idiot and dangerous the US's healthcare approach is. Also wondering if it'll do it in such a way, that the architects, and those that continue the maintain their shitty system, will get royally fucked in the process. I know there'll be an attempt to blame it on foreigners, but there are enough people in the US are fully get how our work culture and healthcare approach create a scenario, where shit will get spread rather fast when it gets out of the quarantine.
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
Oh, the US is fucked if the covid19 takes off there.
The rest of the west actually have sick time and a health system that doesn't bancrupt you, though..
The us is not fucked. This disease would be a tragedy if it spread internationally,however, we've seen Flu viruses in memory which are as deadly to non typical risk groups as it is. For example, if you are under 55, H1N1 10 years ago was probably more dangerous to you, and thus to the smooth function of society.
The impacts to people, and in china are overwhelmingly from trying to stop the spread to save 20 million lives around the world. Once the spread has begun, then every indication is that this would behave like a flu virus which was just 5-10 x as dangerous to old people as usual.
Which flu virus makes 25-50% of the people that catch it require ventilators, with a long incubation period with asymptomatic transfer?
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
Oh, the US is fucked if the covid19 takes off there.
The rest of the west actually have sick time and a health system that doesn't bancrupt you, though..
The us is not fucked. This disease would be a tragedy if it spread internationally,however, we've seen Flu viruses in memory which are as deadly to non typical risk groups as it is. For example, if you are under 55, H1N1 10 years ago was probably more dangerous to you, and thus to the smooth function of society.
The impacts to people, and in china are overwhelmingly from trying to stop the spread to save 20 million lives around the world. Once the spread has begun, then every indication is that this would behave like a flu virus which was just 5-10 x as dangerous to old people as usual.
Which flu virus makes 25-50% of the people that catch it require ventilators, with a long incubation period with asymptomatic transfer?
Is the percentage that high among all the people that catch it, or all the people that require hospitalization due to this illness? I just want to know how much I should panic.
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Giggles_FunsworthBlight on DiscourseBay Area SprawlRegistered Userregular
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
Oh, the US is fucked if the covid19 takes off there.
The rest of the west actually have sick time and a health system that doesn't bancrupt you, though..
The us is not fucked. This disease would be a tragedy if it spread internationally,however, we've seen Flu viruses in memory which are as deadly to non typical risk groups as it is. For example, if you are under 55, H1N1 10 years ago was probably more dangerous to you, and thus to the smooth function of society.
The impacts to people, and in china are overwhelmingly from trying to stop the spread to save 20 million lives around the world. Once the spread has begun, then every indication is that this would behave like a flu virus which was just 5-10 x as dangerous to old people as usual.
Which flu virus makes 25-50% of the people that catch it require ventilators, with a long incubation period with asymptomatic transfer?
Is the percentage that high among all the people that catch it, or all the people that require hospitalization due to this illness? I just want to know how much I should panic.
Was the number I saw for confirmed cases earlier in the thread, don't remember what page. Reason people are dying in China is mostly a lack of hardware.
His videos on it are pretty good. The biggest issue he's worried about is the need in 25-50% of patients for Oxygen. Each hospital may only have up to 300 ventilators-if this becomes a full-blown outbreak, we won't be able to save them all-which is what you are seeing in China.
Say you get 10,000 cases in a area that means 2500-5000 need O2, and the local hospital can only supply 300, that's where the mortality rate starts to rise. Which is probably why China's building more hospitals-for the Oxygen treatments.
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
Oh, the US is fucked if the covid19 takes off there.
The rest of the west actually have sick time and a health system that doesn't bancrupt you, though..
The us is not fucked. This disease would be a tragedy if it spread internationally,however, we've seen Flu viruses in memory which are as deadly to non typical risk groups as it is. For example, if you are under 55, H1N1 10 years ago was probably more dangerous to you, and thus to the smooth function of society.
The impacts to people, and in china are overwhelmingly from trying to stop the spread to save 20 million lives around the world. Once the spread has begun, then every indication is that this would behave like a flu virus which was just 5-10 x as dangerous to old people as usual.
Which flu virus makes 25-50% of the people that catch it require ventilators, with a long incubation period with asymptomatic transfer?
Is the percentage that high among all the people that catch it, or all the people that require hospitalization due to this illness? I just want to know how much I should panic.
Was the number I saw for confirmed cases earlier in the thread, don't remember what page. Reason people are dying in China is mostly a lack of hardware.
Confirmed hospitalized cases iirc
My understanding is the vast majority of people who catch it apparently don't experience severe enough symptoms to warrant hospitalization or even realize they have it vs just a really bad cold/flu.
If it was 25-50% of everyone who catches it I think the death toll would already be staggering.
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But yes, things like Japan's and our "work or die" culture are really not helping. A fucking medical doctor knows better than to come to work at a hospital for days with a high fever (under any circumstances, let alone NOW), but cultural expectations almost always overcome common sense and training in the real world.
If this starts blowing up in the West, I don't foresee many people even having the option to self-quarantine for 14 days. There are going to be a lot of people who go to work sick. Particularly in the food services industry.
Are there any cultures in the world that are happy for people to take time off when sick?
Most places that didnt obliterate unions, and people can take pay leave, or get sick for 10 days without being fired, or killing their chances for any promotion, even really poor countries.
It's amazing to talk to Germans about this stuff. As long as the doctors say they are sick, they are covered by law.
The idea that employees must work themselves to death and have no rights to medical leave even when prescribed by a physician is limited to a handful of Western nations. And the question of "does the employer..." are not as relevant when the state protects its citizens from its own wealthy business owners.:
https://www.gov.uk/taking-sick-leave
Syndicalist; and it certainly didn't hurt.
I think the best part is I was already working from home, and getting my work done, while running a 102 degree fever. Dude was a fucking monster.
Working a kitchen where everyone is coughing and dripping snot because we've infected each other, and who knows how many customers, is a good way to start to question the wisdom of laissez-faire capitalism.
I hope you coughed on him.
Most of the time people get "food poisoning" from a restaurant, it isn't actually spoiled food or rat droppings, but a cook with good 'ol norovirus who should be tucked up at home in bed.
I mean, the truth is that if the cook skips work they could lose their job and their home. If they end up killing people through infecting them, the most likely result is that they keep their job and no one says anything.
The incentive structure makes it so that you either martyr yourself for no gain or practice your sociopathy and survive another day. It ain't a great way to run a society at the best of times, and I have a strong feeling that an actual pandemic will thrive in our culture due to this.
In other news, apparently several people in the UK are about to find out if asymptomatic tranmission of SARS-CoV-2 is possible.
Woof. I hope for their sake that the 250 people at that conference are okay and don't develop COVID.
That whistleblower doctor in China was working sick for days before he died.
My work has put out a memo: If you have flu symptoms you need to be symptom free to return to work. This is a new policy, past policy was to spew pestilence over the entire office so at any given time at least one floor worth of employees is flagrantly violating the limit on how many tissue boxes you can take from the supply room.
They also clarified their sick leave policy: You get 10 days in a year, and can only use 3 consecutively, after which you start accruing attendance violations. Three violations and you are declared to have abandoned the job (meaning you lose unemployment - they lose this on appeal every time, but it takes long enough that more than half of fired employees get new jobs and give up before they ever collect and some don't even realize that you can appeal and will win, just the initial decision is always in favor of the business). Violations reset with one year of perfect attendance (not a rolling window, you can have a violation nearly two years old kept alive on the record and fuck you over).
i.e. If you get coronavirus it's time to update your resume.
You could for real make a solid argument at diverting money from the military budget like Trump did for the wall in the name of national security to fund universal healthcare. This one might not get us, but eventually we're going to have an epidemic that's completely preventable with better health and labor policy.
That is some hot bullshit.
You can't come to work but also if you don't come to work you're fired?
1. Dentists are typically hired on as independent contractors. This means no sick day or PTO, if you don’t show up you don’t get paid. If you get the flu and miss 2 weeks, you don’t get fmla or sick days, you just don’t get paid. This isn’t particularly legal per se, but as far as I’m aware labor laws are very rarely enforced on employers of professional level medical personnel for Reasons.
2. Schedules are often made out weeks or months in advance, and temporary workers are very hard to come by (for some reason there just aren’t that many people with a doctorate just sitting around waiting by the phone to be called in to do fill-in work). You also can’t really just shift the work over to other providers, because they have their own schedules and patients and those are typically full with little wiggle room barring last minute cancellations. So there’s tremendous pressure, not just financially, but also from the point of view that you have patients that often have badly needed care, which will have to be delayed often weeks or months due to cancellation. For longer periods of absence you also have to worry about patients not having access to emergency care, etc.
So yeah, it’s tough, it’s set up in a pretty shitty way and I’m sure it could be handled better (a good start might be to actually enforce labor laws on professional level and salaried personel), but a lot if people are going to have the mentality of “hey, I might be sick but I can walk and talk so I’m going in”
Those policies seem at odds with each other...
Based on the sick time policy already in place, it's likely an attempt at CYA.
Yup. What they want is for people to come in sick and work, then when a customer or client gets sick at work they dump all the blame on the worker for "violationing policy"
Also they're criminals, so. (There's no way to have that policy without violating FMLA and the unemployment thing violated labor laws at least twice).
The doctor in China though..that's more likely just staffing. Heavy quarantine zones are not reknowned for having a lot of staff.
Oh, the US is fucked if the covid19 takes off there.
The rest of the west actually have sick time and a health system that doesn't bancrupt you, though..
A lot fewer workplaces than you'd think are actually covered by the FMLA, there's a minimum employer size that alone exempts way more than half of workplaces. Then there's a minimum density for widespread employers, and it counts your direct employer so for a franchise store it's on the franchise owner and for conglomerates it's on the corporation that employs you, not the corporation that owns that corporation, so even if your workplace has a store on every corner you might not actually be covered.
Edit: I mean, it's worth pointing out that an awful lot of workplaces aren't technically required to pay minimum wage because of very similar requirements, but there's hills even the most penny pinching corporations are hesitant to die on.
Also, FMLA leave without prior notice still requires you to follow sick leave/call-in procedures until your leave is approved, which employers are allowed to take five days to do, and they ARE allowed to fire you under call-in policy during that time.
Edit again: As for unemployment, unemployment is insurance and always takes the employers word on the first decision. They're required to have an appeals process, which they overwhelmingly lose because employers are not truthful on claims. The law is only actually broken if they're still breaking the law after the appeal, at which point they can be civilly liable. Strangely studies have shown that almost nobody can actually afford to sue in those cases.
The U.S. job and healthcare system is a large reason why the country is becoming politically unstable. It puts the population under extreme physical and mental stress, because even well-paid professionals fear that a single illness that lasts more than a couple weeks can cost them their jobs.
The us is not fucked. This disease would be a tragedy if it spread internationally,however, we've seen Flu viruses in memory which are as deadly to non typical risk groups as it is. For example, if you are under 55, H1N1 10 years ago was probably more dangerous to you, and thus to the smooth function of society.
The impacts to people, and in china are overwhelmingly from trying to stop the spread to save 20 million lives around the world. Once the spread has begun, then every indication is that this would behave like a flu virus which was just 5-10 x as dangerous to old people as usual.
I think the point was that with people not having sick time readily available, SARS2 would spread fast if it got into the wild in the US.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
My shit company has a San Francisco "headquarters" but is incorporated out of Ohio so they can dodge California worker protection laws. On top of that, the parent company is Japanese, so they just about break their corporate arms patting themselves on the back for the "generous" work/sick leave they provide (and they make SURE to tell use just how giving they are). It's three weeks a year and it's a combined sick leave/PTO policy, so you'd better hope you don't get a bad flu and wipe out most of your vacation time.
But, as with all diseases like this (flu, colds etc), if it breaches into the wild, then you will be infectious before you show symptoms and infectious after your symptoms have resolved. It will spread quickly, just like the flu does everywhere. Your personal experience of the virus is likely to be much the same in Germany as in the US, the factor which will change is the load on healthcare systems. And, in terms of raw number of beds, us healthcare systems are already structured around how inefficient and silly they are in terms of prevention.
You might check on that, every interstate company I've worked for has followed the laws of the state the employee is in, not the ones where the company is. When I was working for a company out of Seattle and moved to work remote in LA, they used CA laws even though there were all of 3 of us.
I dont mean to be dismissive of the dangers here of course, but, honestly panic is probably the most dangerous symptom of this disease. Sharing facts about the virus, and considering a measured and sensible response is the right course. With this disease, it's still going to be the case that the right thing to do for 95% of patients, even those with serious symptoms, is to stay at home and rest to recover so that hospital time is available for the most seriously affected. The same as the flu.
I have actually been meaning to check on this, just haven't had the time. I've been wondering how I'm subject to WA taxes (or the lack thereof, rather) but not have any WA job laws benefiting me. I would 1000% not be surprised if my company was basically hoping I didn't look this stuff up and find out I'm actually owed a bunch of sick days instead of having to take them out of my PTO.
First time I’ve seen any sort of authority on this sort of thing saying a pandemic is likely.
Fairly terrifying if true, there’s no way worldwide medical infrastructure is going to stand up to that given the percentage of people said to require ventilators.
I'm wondering if Covid19 will be the next pandemic and if it'll do a great job highlighting just have fucking idiot and dangerous the US's healthcare approach is. Also wondering if it'll do it in such a way, that the architects, and those that continue the maintain their shitty system, will get royally fucked in the process. I know there'll be an attempt to blame it on foreigners, but there are enough people in the US are fully get how our work culture and healthcare approach create a scenario, where shit will get spread rather fast when it gets out of the quarantine.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
Which flu virus makes 25-50% of the people that catch it require ventilators, with a long incubation period with asymptomatic transfer?
Is the percentage that high among all the people that catch it, or all the people that require hospitalization due to this illness? I just want to know how much I should panic.
Was the number I saw for confirmed cases earlier in the thread, don't remember what page. Reason people are dying in China is mostly a lack of hardware.
Nm, found it with search.
Confirmed hospitalized cases iirc
My understanding is the vast majority of people who catch it apparently don't experience severe enough symptoms to warrant hospitalization or even realize they have it vs just a really bad cold/flu.
If it was 25-50% of everyone who catches it I think the death toll would already be staggering.