Price is increased with the number and type of ports, addition of integrated wifi, and number of M2 slots primarily. The other features are pretty much standard across the board. For example, I was trying to tell the difference between Aorus Pro and Master or whatever, and the only difference was that the higher-priced version had a USB-C port instead of one of the standard USB3.0As. You can also get boards with PS2 and USB2.0 only if you're looking for a bargain.
What I usually do is go on Newegg, filter for the size and processor slot (ATX, LGA-1151(300 Series)), then sort results by Best Rating and find something I'm okay paying for in the list.
Then I take the product name and buy it somewhere else because Newegg's shipping policy isn't great.
Ah dammit. Right. I forgot you can't really expand a partition backwards.
You might remember what I did to get my computer to work was simply make a new aprtition and install windows 10 there, and slowly carry over various data on free moments. Now I'm done, and so I wanted to see about deleting the Win 7 partition and giving 10 the full hard drive. But of course, the Win 10 partition is at the bottom of the disc, and you can't just extend a partition backwards the way you can forwards. Dammit. Does anyone know if there's a tool that will let me do this, taking into account that, well, all the system files are in this thing?
Well, this is weird. So while I was backupping and doing all the other stuff, I noticed for some reason the system seems to be actually booting from the old platter hdd where windows was never installed, and THEN letting the windows in the SSD do its thing. For some reason despite the platter drive being in port 4 it's read at disc 0 by windows, and if I remove it or make it inactive windows no longer finds any OS. I think the boot record may have ended up in the old hdd when I installed windows for some godforsaken reason?
Like, look at the disk config screen:
That disc 0 is in SATA 4 but there it is, first in line, and if I set boot priority to SSD the system stops booting. How bloody weird.
Ya, 100% productivity, zero gaming, and I'm trying for clean hence the NVMe. We're currently on 256GB, and only using about half, but I'll look around to see if there's a decent NVMe drive for under a hundred bucks, but I'm kind of pushing the budget right now and I don't even have a GPU :biggrin:
Also, I picked the case in question because of the magnetic screens on the front and top. Figured the H50 would be efficient enough at cooling as I'm not relying on a lot of airflow to keep the CPU cool.
BouwsT on
Between you and me, Peggy, I smoked this Juul and it did UNTHINKABLE things to my mind and body...
Well, this is weird. So while I was backupping and doing all the other stuff, I noticed for some reason the system seems to be actually booting from the old platter hdd where windows was never installed, and THEN letting the windows in the SSD do its thing. For some reason despite the platter drive being in port 4 it's read at disc 0 by windows, and if I remove it or make it inactive windows no longer finds any OS. I think the boot record may have ended up in the old hdd when I installed windows for some godforsaken reason?
Like, look at the disk config screen:
That disc 0 is in SATA 4 but there it is, first in line, and if I set boot priority to SSD the system stops booting. How bloody weird.
See if Macrium Reflect can help you get the partitions figured out.
Be advised you'll probably need to do a clean Win10 install *somewhere* and port over stuff. My guess is the boot record was written to the spinner during your Win7 install(?) or possibly Win10 used the spinner because it couldn't find space anywhere else during install. Also weird things just happen.
If/when you install Win10 again, make sure the spinner is unplugged from SATA - and you may need to delete the MBR from that spinner if you can find it.
Someone correct me here, but I believe if you disconnect the spinner and run a Win10 repair, it can write the boot record to the proper drive.
This started in the Windows 8.x days but in Windows 10 became much more of a thing, if you install windows on a computer with multiple internal storage devices connected it actually will try to spread out some of the "parts" of windows, this is supposed to be for performance but ends up being a massive pain in the ass, especailly if you're changing out data drives at any point.
Like, Windows will put the boot file on one drive, the page file on another, etc. It's awful.
I've taken to just making sure I only have one drive plugged in when I do a windows install.
Price is increased with the number and type of ports, addition of integrated wifi, and number of M2 slots primarily. The other features are pretty much standard across the board. For example, I was trying to tell the difference between Aorus Pro and Master or whatever, and the only difference was that the higher-priced version had a USB-C port instead of one of the standard USB3.0As. You can also get boards with PS2 and USB2.0 only if you're looking for a bargain.
What I usually do is go on Newegg, filter for the size and processor slot (ATX, LGA-1151(300 Series)), then sort results by Best Rating and find something I'm okay paying for in the list.
Then I take the product name and buy it somewhere else because Newegg's shipping policy isn't great.
There's also pcie 4 support, which is mostly a gimmick right now, but if you're concerned with future proofing....
So I'm finally getting around to thinking about building a new PC, and I'm set with most of my choices except for two.
First, video card. I'm debating between the 2080 Super and the 2080 Ti. I'm wondering if the extra VRAM in the Ti will make any difference not now, but several years from now. I'm not 4K gaming yet, and probably not in the near-ish future, but I am looking for a solid VR card.
Second, what the heck should I be looking for in a motherboard, other than a socket that matches my CPU and a form factor that fits in a case? I am looking for a plethora of USB ports, but other than that I'm at a loss as to what differentiates a $150 mobo from a $300 one. I'm not on a tight budget, but I'm not sure what, other than needless RGB nonsense, I'd get from a fancier mobo.
@Lawndart For the first part, unless your sitting on GC's that expire, I'd hold off. Obviously there's the "something better is always coming" line. But GTC is next month and Nvidia will be showing their new cards with possible release. Since your looking at high end cards already, it's probably worth waiting at least 1 month. Even if you decide you don't need the newer cards, it should reduce the pricing for 2080Ti and Super.
For the 2nd part, I can't help much. Bought my Z77 back in 2012 and it's still going strong. But if the trends are the same as back then, some is cosmetic, you're paying for something to look nice in a windowed case. But some stuff to look at would be on board audio, NIC, how many PCI-E slots, and quality of components like phase configuration (only really useful for heavy overclocking). If you just want to plop a CPU in and call it good, you should be able to just find a well reviewed mid-tier board and be fine.
EDIT: seems others have helped with #2.
Trajan45 on
Origin ID\ Steam ID: Warder45
0
Zxerolfor the smaller pieces, my shovel wouldn't doso i took off my boot and used my shoeRegistered Userregular
This started in the Windows 8.x days but in Windows 10 became much more of a thing, if you install windows on a computer with multiple internal storage devices connected it actually will try to spread out some of the "parts" of windows, this is supposed to be for performance but ends up being a massive pain in the ass, especailly if you're changing out data drives at any point.
Like, Windows will put the boot file on one drive, the page file on another, etc. It's awful.
I've taken to just making sure I only have one drive plugged in when I do a windows install.
Man, that's some bullshit. But it does explain that, since the drive was there when I installed Win 10. Wish I'd known to just unplug every other drive.
Either way, I did fix the C partition, and honestly I don't think I give enough of a fuck about the double HDD boot thing to go diving into the boot record and all that jazz. It just bothers me, but let's not mess with things that might bork the entire installation in the middle of the school year.
You know what? This GN review of the larger (but same tooling) Q500L has turned me off this case. Also, re-looking made me realize i didn't have a PSU quoted lol. Switching cases, slightly cheaper air cooler, and bumping up the NVMe to 500 GB. TY thread, I'll post some pics once they're together.
Between you and me, Peggy, I smoked this Juul and it did UNTHINKABLE things to my mind and body...
So now that I have a 3800X, should I be trying to overclock it? After the experience I had with Ryzen Master with my other board, I'm a bit anxious about using it again. However I feel like I've wasted money if I don't give this thing even a mild overclock.
This started in the Windows 8.x days but in Windows 10 became much more of a thing, if you install windows on a computer with multiple internal storage devices connected it actually will try to spread out some of the "parts" of windows, this is supposed to be for performance but ends up being a massive pain in the ass, especailly if you're changing out data drives at any point.
Like, Windows will put the boot file on one drive, the page file on another, etc. It's awful.
I've taken to just making sure I only have one drive plugged in when I do a windows install.
Man, that's some bullshit. But it does explain that, since the drive was there when I installed Win 10. Wish I'd known to just unplug every other drive.
Either way, I did fix the C partition, and honestly I don't think I give enough of a fuck about the double HDD boot thing to go diving into the boot record and all that jazz. It just bothers me, but let's not mess with things that might bork the entire installation in the middle of the school year.
On the bright side, I think a working solution of this--if you can boot into Windows anyway--is an in-place installation with just one drive accessible. That will basically force Windows 10 to install all of "itself" on the one drive.
This started in the Windows 8.x days but in Windows 10 became much more of a thing, if you install windows on a computer with multiple internal storage devices connected it actually will try to spread out some of the "parts" of windows, this is supposed to be for performance but ends up being a massive pain in the ass, especailly if you're changing out data drives at any point.
Like, Windows will put the boot file on one drive, the page file on another, etc. It's awful.
I've taken to just making sure I only have one drive plugged in when I do a windows install.
Man, that's some bullshit. But it does explain that, since the drive was there when I installed Win 10. Wish I'd known to just unplug every other drive.
Either way, I did fix the C partition, and honestly I don't think I give enough of a fuck about the double HDD boot thing to go diving into the boot record and all that jazz. It just bothers me, but let's not mess with things that might bork the entire installation in the middle of the school year.
On the bright side, I think a working solution of this--if you can boot into Windows anyway--is an in-place installation with just one drive accessible. That will basically force Windows 10 to install all of "itself" on the one drive.
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
edited February 2020
Well this'll be fun. Trying to test the board and all I get is an unhelpful flash of a bunch of lights for a split second before it all goes dark. No fans spin up, either on the power supply (which does spin up with the dummy tester they included) nor the cooler ones.
Did some googling around to try and find what other people had problems with. Sticky thermal paste bent some pins when removing the cooler? I had that happen, check the CPU, nah it's fine. Oh, I should probably have the CPU plugged in. Do that, same thing. 3800 won't post because it doesn't have integrated graphics, alright let's try it again with the GPU in. Nope. Anyone know where I can go from here?
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Testing Round 2: Took everything off bar one ram stick put into another slot and my NVME SSD just to see if I could get the mobo to post by itself, because I think that's a thing it's supposed to be able to do? Nada. Not sure if I need to fly right into a bios flash (it's got a q-flash port that apparently can do it semi-automatically), if it's DOA, or I'm continually missing something dumb.
Well this'll be fun. Trying to test the board and all I get is an unhelpful flash of a bunch of lights for a split second before it all goes dark. No fans spin up, either on the power supply (which does spin up with the dummy tester they included) nor the cooler ones.
Did some googling around to try and find what other people had problems with. Sticky thermal paste bent some pins when removing the cooler? I had that happen, check the CPU, nah it's fine. Oh, I should probably have the CPU plugged in. Do that, same thing. 3800 won't post because it doesn't have integrated graphics, alright let's try it again with the GPU in. Nope. Anyone know where I can go from here?
I’ve had that happen to me twice before. 1st time it was the gpu, board refused to even turn on with it in the slot; took me a long time to figure this one out, I even built a completely new machine. GPU was completely dead, and the rest of the machine was fine; I put a new GPU in it and gave it to my dad.
2nd time was a few months ago, and it was a completely dead motherboard. I would guess that you have some issue similar to this here. You could maybe try a BIOS flash if it has flashback. You might have to RMA the board otherwise.
Steam - Synthetic Violence | XBOX Live - Cannonfuse | PSN - CastleBravo | Twitch - SoggybiscuitPA
Well this'll be fun. Trying to test the board and all I get is an unhelpful flash of a bunch of lights for a split second before it all goes dark. No fans spin up, either on the power supply (which does spin up with the dummy tester they included) nor the cooler ones.
Did some googling around to try and find what other people had problems with. Sticky thermal paste bent some pins when removing the cooler? I had that happen, check the CPU, nah it's fine. Oh, I should probably have the CPU plugged in. Do that, same thing. 3800 won't post because it doesn't have integrated graphics, alright let's try it again with the GPU in. Nope. Anyone know where I can go from here?
Sweeping assumptions: my (returned) Gigabyte board needed a number of BIOS updates. Granted it was a B450 board back in July, when the 3xxx CPUs were coming out.
That being said, you can't update the board if it laughs at you as soon as you give it power.
Why do these eureka moments only come in the shower?
@The Escape Goat in that video, all you did was turn on the power switch on the back of the PSU. You need to use the blade of a flat head screwdriver to short the pins for the power switch if you want it to fire up.
(It's not really a short; you're just using the screwdriver to mimic the power switch. It doesn't hurt the board or the PSU)
This started in the Windows 8.x days but in Windows 10 became much more of a thing, if you install windows on a computer with multiple internal storage devices connected it actually will try to spread out some of the "parts" of windows, this is supposed to be for performance but ends up being a massive pain in the ass, especailly if you're changing out data drives at any point.
Like, Windows will put the boot file on one drive, the page file on another, etc. It's awful.
I've taken to just making sure I only have one drive plugged in when I do a windows install.
It does that at least since Windows Vista and I hate it. It’s more like the first HD which is reported by the BIOS / UEFI gets the boot loader, EFI partition and maybe the recovery partition, the HD you select gets the system folder. (edit: I think every NT based Windows offloads it’s bootloader to the first drive which the system reports). I think it’s done to avoid having the user switch boot order in the BIOS. On modern systems this shouldn’t be necessary anyway because the Windows UEFI Boot loader is picked up automatically and booted from
by default. Why can’t the setup work like most Linux Desktop setups? Punch in the details I want before the install, and when I come back it’s done, while not touching other data volumes present in the system.
Well this'll be fun. Trying to test the board and all I get is an unhelpful flash of a bunch of lights for a split second before it all goes dark. No fans spin up, either on the power supply (which does spin up with the dummy tester they included) nor the cooler ones.
Did some googling around to try and find what other people had problems with. Sticky thermal paste bent some pins when removing the cooler? I had that happen, check the CPU, nah it's fine. Oh, I should probably have the CPU plugged in. Do that, same thing. 3800 won't post because it doesn't have integrated graphics, alright let's try it again with the GPU in. Nope. Anyone know where I can go from here?
Reseat all the things. Remove all but 1 stick of RAM.
Do that and check the manual if there is a specified slot for 1 module operation. I have a MSI B450 Tomahawk Max and it wouldn’t post if I put the module anywhere else, with the BIOS/UEFI it shipped with.
Price is increased with the number and type of ports, addition of integrated wifi, and number of M2 slots primarily. The other features are pretty much standard across the board. For example, I was trying to tell the difference between Aorus Pro and Master or whatever, and the only difference was that the higher-priced version had a USB-C port instead of one of the standard USB3.0As. You can also get boards with PS2 and USB2.0 only if you're looking for a bargain.
What I usually do is go on Newegg, filter for the size and processor slot (ATX, LGA-1151(300 Series)), then sort results by Best Rating and find something I'm okay paying for in the list.
Then I take the product name and buy it somewhere else because Newegg's shipping policy isn't great.
The other thing to keep in mind are the power phases (and the cooling solution for this) on the board which mean your ability to put in a beast like the ryzen 3900x at a later date and run it stable.
I have this case. It was nice to build in with the exception of the PSU cage and the way that bar interacted with my mobo. The power connections and sata ports on my board where right by the bar so it made for awkward cable routing but that is likely board dependent.
the psu was hard to plug in and run since my cables were not super long
0
BouwsTWanna come to a super soft birthday party?Registered Userregular
Guys! The parts came!
Guys! The CPU seal arrived broken!
Guys! Some asshole returned this CPU with bent pins!
Le sigh
Between you and me, Peggy, I smoked this Juul and it did UNTHINKABLE things to my mind and body...
+14
SnicketysnickThe Greatest Hype Man inWesterosRegistered Userregular
Oh man that fucking sucks. You should get an advance RMA for the replacement if the seller gives a shit, which they may.
Fix'd. You shouldn't end up waiting a week (or more) because of one bent pin, but that is literally part of the game unfortunately.
+1
The Escape Goatincorrigible ruminantthey/themRegistered Userregular
Thanks for the diag advice all, btw. I tried most of what's offered and got nothing, so tomorrow I'm gonna hop by best buy and grab a fresh mobo/power supply just to sanity test everything. I looked at user reviews for the MSI x570 board they have and someone specifically called it out as being much easier to work with than the Aorus, so maybe that'll be something.
0
BouwsTWanna come to a super soft birthday party?Registered Userregular
Oh man that fucking sucks. You should get an advance RMA for the replacement if the seller gives a shit, which they may.
Fix'd. You shouldn't end up waiting a week (or more) because of one bent pin, but that is literally part of the game unfortunately.
Yep, bought all the parts through Memory Express and Amazon (CPU came from Amazon). Should have the replacement here by Wednesday.
I did order two of each part though, because I'm building two machines so I was able to get one basically together. It's very easy to get the back panel on when there's only a single CPU cable and 24 Pin to manage.
BouwsT on
Between you and me, Peggy, I smoked this Juul and it did UNTHINKABLE things to my mind and body...
Posts
What I usually do is go on Newegg, filter for the size and processor slot (ATX, LGA-1151(300 Series)), then sort results by Best Rating and find something I'm okay paying for in the list.
Then I take the product name and buy it somewhere else because Newegg's shipping policy isn't great.
Updating the Bios to the most current shaved like 6s off the pre-Post boot time.
https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/kbMXV7
Edit: Trying to keep wiring to a minimum, as well as have this PC sneak under a desk, hence the form factor.
You might remember what I did to get my computer to work was simply make a new aprtition and install windows 10 there, and slowly carry over various data on free moments. Now I'm done, and so I wanted to see about deleting the Win 7 partition and giving 10 the full hard drive. But of course, the Win 10 partition is at the bottom of the disc, and you can't just extend a partition backwards the way you can forwards. Dammit. Does anyone know if there's a tool that will let me do this, taking into account that, well, all the system files are in this thing?
What are you planning to use this build for? Just general productivity stuff? No gaming?
I would be tempted to throw $20-30 to get a 500GB SSD.
I also would avoid that case, it apparently has absolutely horrible thermals. I have heard decent things about this case: https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product/Yn7CmG/thermaltake-case-ca1d400s1nn00
Like, look at the disk config screen:
That disc 0 is in SATA 4 but there it is, first in line, and if I set boot priority to SSD the system stops booting. How bloody weird.
Ya, 100% productivity, zero gaming, and I'm trying for clean hence the NVMe. We're currently on 256GB, and only using about half, but I'll look around to see if there's a decent NVMe drive for under a hundred bucks, but I'm kind of pushing the budget right now and I don't even have a GPU :biggrin:
Also, I picked the case in question because of the magnetic screens on the front and top. Figured the H50 would be efficient enough at cooling as I'm not relying on a lot of airflow to keep the CPU cool.
See if Macrium Reflect can help you get the partitions figured out.
Be advised you'll probably need to do a clean Win10 install *somewhere* and port over stuff. My guess is the boot record was written to the spinner during your Win7 install(?) or possibly Win10 used the spinner because it couldn't find space anywhere else during install. Also weird things just happen.
If/when you install Win10 again, make sure the spinner is unplugged from SATA - and you may need to delete the MBR from that spinner if you can find it.
Someone correct me here, but I believe if you disconnect the spinner and run a Win10 repair, it can write the boot record to the proper drive.
Like, Windows will put the boot file on one drive, the page file on another, etc. It's awful.
I've taken to just making sure I only have one drive plugged in when I do a windows install.
There's also pcie 4 support, which is mostly a gimmick right now, but if you're concerned with future proofing....
@Lawndart For the first part, unless your sitting on GC's that expire, I'd hold off. Obviously there's the "something better is always coming" line. But GTC is next month and Nvidia will be showing their new cards with possible release. Since your looking at high end cards already, it's probably worth waiting at least 1 month. Even if you decide you don't need the newer cards, it should reduce the pricing for 2080Ti and Super.
For the 2nd part, I can't help much. Bought my Z77 back in 2012 and it's still going strong. But if the trends are the same as back then, some is cosmetic, you're paying for something to look nice in a windowed case. But some stuff to look at would be on board audio, NIC, how many PCI-E slots, and quality of components like phase configuration (only really useful for heavy overclocking). If you just want to plop a CPU in and call it good, you should be able to just find a well reviewed mid-tier board and be fine.
EDIT: seems others have helped with #2.
ah sheeyit, was looking at case options to replace this R5, and I guess I can stop looking now
Man, that's some bullshit. But it does explain that, since the drive was there when I installed Win 10. Wish I'd known to just unplug every other drive.
Either way, I did fix the C partition, and honestly I don't think I give enough of a fuck about the double HDD boot thing to go diving into the boot record and all that jazz. It just bothers me, but let's not mess with things that might bork the entire installation in the middle of the school year.
You know what? This GN review of the larger (but same tooling) Q500L has turned me off this case. Also, re-looking made me realize i didn't have a PSU quoted lol. Switching cases, slightly cheaper air cooler, and bumping up the NVMe to 500 GB. TY thread, I'll post some pics once they're together.
IIRC, the "golden" chips are getting +300 and most are getting +100.
On the bright side, I think a working solution of this--if you can boot into Windows anyway--is an in-place installation with just one drive accessible. That will basically force Windows 10 to install all of "itself" on the one drive.
I'm pretty sure you can use the install media to fix it
https://www.dell.com/support/article/us/en/04/sln300987/how-to-repair-the-efi-bootloader-on-a-gpt-hdd-for-windows-7-8-8-1-and-10-on-your-dell-pc?lang=en
https://youtu.be/TguLk5lqOAM
Did some googling around to try and find what other people had problems with. Sticky thermal paste bent some pins when removing the cooler? I had that happen, check the CPU, nah it's fine. Oh, I should probably have the CPU plugged in. Do that, same thing. 3800 won't post because it doesn't have integrated graphics, alright let's try it again with the GPU in. Nope. Anyone know where I can go from here?
Edit: Here's the post with the hardware I'm working with: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/comment/42149446/#Comment_42149446
I'll check that video in the morning.
I’ve had that happen to me twice before. 1st time it was the gpu, board refused to even turn on with it in the slot; took me a long time to figure this one out, I even built a completely new machine. GPU was completely dead, and the rest of the machine was fine; I put a new GPU in it and gave it to my dad.
2nd time was a few months ago, and it was a completely dead motherboard. I would guess that you have some issue similar to this here. You could maybe try a BIOS flash if it has flashback. You might have to RMA the board otherwise.
Reseat all the things. Remove all but 1 stick of RAM.
That being said, you can't update the board if it laughs at you as soon as you give it power.
Shot in the dark: try the stock cooler first
Why do these eureka moments only come in the shower?
@The Escape Goat in that video, all you did was turn on the power switch on the back of the PSU. You need to use the blade of a flat head screwdriver to short the pins for the power switch if you want it to fire up.
(It's not really a short; you're just using the screwdriver to mimic the power switch. It doesn't hurt the board or the PSU)
Unrelated: CPU is running about 14C cooler now
Instructions unclear. CPU is now barking uncontrollably.
Pull more fluff.
Keep pulling fluff.
It does that at least since Windows Vista and I hate it. It’s more like the first HD which is reported by the BIOS / UEFI gets the boot loader, EFI partition and maybe the recovery partition, the HD you select gets the system folder. (edit: I think every NT based Windows offloads it’s bootloader to the first drive which the system reports). I think it’s done to avoid having the user switch boot order in the BIOS. On modern systems this shouldn’t be necessary anyway because the Windows UEFI Boot loader is picked up automatically and booted from
by default. Why can’t the setup work like most Linux Desktop setups? Punch in the details I want before the install, and when I come back it’s done, while not touching other data volumes present in the system.
Do that and check the manual if there is a specified slot for 1 module operation. I have a MSI B450 Tomahawk Max and it wouldn’t post if I put the module anywhere else, with the BIOS/UEFI it shipped with.
The other thing to keep in mind are the power phases (and the cooling solution for this) on the board which mean your ability to put in a beast like the ryzen 3900x at a later date and run it stable.
I have this case. It was nice to build in with the exception of the PSU cage and the way that bar interacted with my mobo. The power connections and sata ports on my board where right by the bar so it made for awkward cable routing but that is likely board dependent.
the psu was hard to plug in and run since my cables were not super long
Guys! The CPU seal arrived broken!
Guys! Some asshole returned this CPU with bent pins!
Le sigh
At least the rest of it looks nice
D3 Steam #TeamTangent STO
On another note, anyone believing those nvidia rumors on ampere that the random twitter account came out with?
https://twitter.com/CorgiKitty
Fix'd. You shouldn't end up waiting a week (or more) because of one bent pin, but that is literally part of the game unfortunately.
Yep, bought all the parts through Memory Express and Amazon (CPU came from Amazon). Should have the replacement here by Wednesday.
I did order two of each part though, because I'm building two machines so I was able to get one basically together. It's very easy to get the back panel on when there's only a single CPU cable and 24 Pin to manage.