Oh, this week's X-Force confirmed some real sinister shit about the resurrection protocols
Xavier is fucking with the resurrected mutants' heads
Domino died in the issue before and her dying words to Colossus were that she didn't want to forget the pain she went through as it was a part of her and she needed to acknowledge it and process it
She comes back this issue and is way more carefree and light and when asked about it she says she remembers what happened but "it feels like it happened to someone else".
I suspect Hickman will save Wanda for the big reset two or three years from now. The new direction is great, but it sort of breaks the rest of the Marvel universe (every non-mutant kind of looks like an asshole). I'm probably wrong though!
I'm still constantly at least a little bit upset that Wanda and Pietro aren't mutants anymore
I think it might be my greatest comics grudge
Don't worry, now that Marvel's got the X-Men movie rights back I'm sure any day now they'll reveal that that whole thing was a dream or something
Wanda still being public enemy number one on Krakoa pretty much solidified for me that this isn't going to be the case anytime soon. If there was a time to do it, it was then.
Personally I think the story is much more interesting if she is revealed to still be a mutant
How will Krakoa reckon with their SHE IS THE BETRAYER shit with the general forgiveness and amnesty policy if she turns out to be a fellow mutant?
That's far more interesting, and seems in line with what DoX is dealing in, than her just being An Other.
What was the latest retcon in regards to her and Pietro?
Last I heard awhile ago is that they were actually Inhumans, but I can't help feeling like I heard that was changed again afterwards.
They were never said to be Inhumans, that was just an assumption people made. They were revealed to have been experimented on by the High Evolutionary, but also Wanda now comes from a lineage of powerful magic users.
Marvel has announced a new America Chavez mini, from Kalinda Varquez and Carlos Gomez
The same day Image has announced they are bringing back the dormant ALL-AMERICA COMIX book starring AMERICA VASQUEZ from Joe Casey and Nick Dragotta. They created America Chavez but the version folks actually like came in Gillen and McKelvie's Young Avengers.
It is hard to look worse than Marvel right now after the Safespace shit but boy is announcing an extremely blatant knock-off (that is using the aesthetic and attitude of the version they didn't make) of one of the more prominent Latina characters in comics from 2 middle aged white dudes that has dialogue like this:
Oh, this week's X-Force confirmed some real sinister shit about the resurrection protocols
Xavier is fucking with the resurrected mutants' heads
Domino died in the issue before and her dying words to Colossus were that she didn't want to forget the pain she went through as it was a part of her and she needed to acknowledge it and process it
She comes back this issue and is way more carefree and light and when asked about it she says she remembers what happened but "it feels like it happened to someone else".
THAT'S gonna be a fun thing when folks find out
I almost feel like that would be necessary so it may not end up being a nefarious thing (I'm sure it is though).
I just don't see how the mortal mind would process trauma happening to the body that is fatal. It seems like a recipe for the biggest case of PTSD possibly imaginable.
Oh, this week's X-Force confirmed some real sinister shit about the resurrection protocols
Xavier is fucking with the resurrected mutants' heads
Domino died in the issue before and her dying words to Colossus were that she didn't want to forget the pain she went through as it was a part of her and she needed to acknowledge it and process it
She comes back this issue and is way more carefree and light and when asked about it she says she remembers what happened but "it feels like it happened to someone else".
THAT'S gonna be a fun thing when folks find out
I almost feel like that would be necessary so it may not end up being a nefarious thing (I'm sure it is though).
I just don't see how the mortal mind would process trauma happening to the body that is fatal. It seems like a recipe for the biggest case of PTSD possibly imaginable.
I agree that the trauma of death and rebirth would likely cause Problems
But no matter what the reasoning, violating someone's consent by ignoring their request of how they want their own mind to be is EVIL AS HELL
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
I suspect Hickman will save Wanda for the big reset two or three years from now. The new direction is great, but it sort of breaks the rest of the Marvel universe (every non-mutant kind of looks like an asshole). I'm probably wrong though!
Oh, this week's X-Force confirmed some real sinister shit about the resurrection protocols
Xavier is fucking with the resurrected mutants' heads
Domino died in the issue before and her dying words to Colossus were that she didn't want to forget the pain she went through as it was a part of her and she needed to acknowledge it and process it
She comes back this issue and is way more carefree and light and when asked about it she says she remembers what happened but "it feels like it happened to someone else".
THAT'S gonna be a fun thing when folks find out
Didn't we already know that?
Marauders:
Shinobi's mind was also erased so he'd forget his previous death and his father's role in it.
Oh, this week's X-Force confirmed some real sinister shit about the resurrection protocols
Xavier is fucking with the resurrected mutants' heads
Domino died in the issue before and her dying words to Colossus were that she didn't want to forget the pain she went through as it was a part of her and she needed to acknowledge it and process it
She comes back this issue and is way more carefree and light and when asked about it she says she remembers what happened but "it feels like it happened to someone else".
THAT'S gonna be a fun thing when folks find out
Didn't we already know that?
Marauders:
Shinobi's mind was also erased so he'd forget his previous death and his father's role in it.
We knew that Shaw pulled some strings to have that happen
yeah, compare that page to Casey and Dragotta's America Chavez
Yeah it is super shitty that they are billing themselves as THE CREATOR OF AMERICA CHAVEZ when their version is basically nothing like the YA version that folks actually love and became popular
I think it's pretty silly to try to take credit from them. You guys gonna try to take away Liefeld's Deadpool credit next? That's not how this works.
Certainly if there is an America movie, the Young Avengers creators should get the special thanks credit. But I've honestly never heard of trying to remove credit from creators before. It's a terrible look.
shoeboxjeddy on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
yeah, compare that page to Casey and Dragotta's America Chavez
Yeah it is super shitty that they are billing themselves as THE CREATOR OF AMERICA CHAVEZ when their version is basically nothing like the YA version that folks actually love and became popular
It's Maximum Carny shit
It's "Liefeld created Deadpool" kinda stuff.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I think it's pretty silly to try to take credit from them. You guys gonna try to take away Liefeld's Deadpool credit next? That's not how this works.
I mean, kinda? Liefeld created nothing about Deadpool that was the reason he became popular. Hell, even the costume/name was just blatantly ripped off of Deathstroke.
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
I think it's pretty silly to try to take credit from them. You guys gonna try to take away Liefeld's Deadpool credit next? That's not how this works.
I mean, kinda? Liefeld created nothing about Deadpool that was the reason he became popular. Hell, even the costume/name was just blatantly ripped off of Deathstroke.
And yet, he did create the guy. The answer is openly stating who did what and sharing more credit, not trying to rob people. Young Avengers could have made up a new person completely, they chose not to.
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The question of who gets what credit has been part of comics for a long time.
Just ask Bill Finger.
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
I think it's pretty silly to try to take credit from them. You guys gonna try to take away Liefeld's Deadpool credit next? That's not how this works.
Certainly if there is an America movie, the Young Avengers creators should get the special thanks credit. But I've honestly never heard of trying to remove credit from creators before. It's a terrible look.
It's less that they are saying they created the character, nobody is disputing that. If they were making a comic based on the character as they created her folks wouldn't have nearly as much of an issue with it.
But they're copying everything Gillen & McKelvie did to actually make the character popular and the clear insinuation is that they're responsible for that too, so by reading their comic you're getting the character you love, by the people who made her. Technically true, but creatively dishonest.
The question of who gets what credit has been part of comics for a long time.
Just ask Bill Finger.
The issue there was horribly unfair wage/ royalty split and then outright lying facilitated by contracts about who did what. Bob Kane shouldn't be deleted from history, it should just be made clear how much he did (and how little).
In the case of America, the original creators made her name, look, backstory, and basic attitude. ALL of which are retained and expanded on in Young Avengers. Matt Fraction's take on Hawkeye was radically different and original but he in no way invented the character. Ditto for lots of characters like this, Black Panther comes to mind. Comics are a collaborative art form and the contributions of most stages aid the work of the next group.
I would argue her backstory and look and attitude are significantly different in YA
She is an abrasive shitbird who hates her utopian society and is a dick all the time in Vengeance
Like
She is literally part of a team of young villains
YA made her heroic and empathetic and cocky rather than abrasive and also her queer identity which is a huge part of her following
America has never not been a dick. I think her abrasiveness is a core character trait at this point. And the whole villain thing was a part of like 10 twists, wrapped up in the way that story was told. Regarding the "they're taking the YA characterization", that's baloney too. People would be happier if they ignored all the character development made since Vengeance because they didn't write that other stuff? That would INFURIATE people. People really hate it when a writer comes in and does a completely different take, it makes it seem like they did no research and just wanted to write whatever. Check out Bendis Moon Knight if you want to see how that goes.
The question of who gets what credit has been part of comics for a long time.
Just ask Bill Finger.
The issue there was horribly unfair wage/ royalty split and then outright lying facilitated by contracts about who did what. Bob Kane shouldn't be deleted from history, it should just be made clear how much he did (and how little).
In the case of America, the original creators made her name, look, backstory, and basic attitude. ALL of which are retained and expanded on in Young Avengers. Matt Fraction's take on Hawkeye was radically different and original but he in no way invented the character. Ditto for lots of characters like this, Black Panther comes to mind. Comics are a collaborative art form and the contributions of most stages aid the work of the next group.
They absolutely did not make her "look", aside from her being a young latina with dark hair. Her costume in Vengeance was downright atrocious and Jamie McKelvie's redesign was a dramatic overhaul, huge improvement, and the first thing that made people really start paying attention to the character at all.
I would argue her backstory and look and attitude are significantly different in YA
She is an abrasive shitbird who hates her utopian society and is a dick all the time in Vengeance
Like
She is literally part of a team of young villains
YA made her heroic and empathetic and cocky rather than abrasive and also her queer identity which is a huge part of her following
America has never not been a dick. I think her abrasiveness is a core character trait at this point. And the whole villain thing was a part of like 10 twists, wrapped up in the way that story was told. Regarding the "they're taking the YA characterization", that's baloney too. People would be happier if they ignored all the character development made since Vengeance because they didn't write that other stuff? That would INFURIATE people. People really hate it when a writer comes in and does a completely different take, it makes it seem like they did no research and just wanted to write whatever. Check out Bendis Moon Knight if you want to see how that goes.
Why would people expect Original Character America Vasquez to keep the character development of America Chavez?
Unless of course, they were really expecting the current characterization of America Chavez, and not the original character that Casey and Dragotta created, and this was a really obvious and blatant attempt to sell the former while tiptoeing around who actually owns that character.
I would argue her backstory and look and attitude are significantly different in YA
She is an abrasive shitbird who hates her utopian society and is a dick all the time in Vengeance
Like
She is literally part of a team of young villains
YA made her heroic and empathetic and cocky rather than abrasive and also her queer identity which is a huge part of her following
America has never not been a dick. I think her abrasiveness is a core character trait at this point. And the whole villain thing was a part of like 10 twists, wrapped up in the way that story was told. Regarding the "they're taking the YA characterization", that's baloney too. People would be happier if they ignored all the character development made since Vengeance because they didn't write that other stuff? That would INFURIATE people. People really hate it when a writer comes in and does a completely different take, it makes it seem like they did no research and just wanted to write whatever. Check out Bendis Moon Knight if you want to see how that goes.
Right, but this isn't America Chavez. This isn't a Marvel comic we're talking about, this is America Vasquez, as published by Image.
The question of who gets what credit has been part of comics for a long time.
Just ask Bill Finger.
The issue there was horribly unfair wage/ royalty split and then outright lying facilitated by contracts about who did what. Bob Kane shouldn't be deleted from history, it should just be made clear how much he did (and how little).
In the case of America, the original creators made her name, look, backstory, and basic attitude. ALL of which are retained and expanded on in Young Avengers. Matt Fraction's take on Hawkeye was radically different and original but he in no way invented the character. Ditto for lots of characters like this, Black Panther comes to mind. Comics are a collaborative art form and the contributions of most stages aid the work of the next group.
They absolutely did not make her "look", aside from her being a young latina with dark hair. Her costume in Vengeance was downright atrocious and Jamie McKelvie's redesign was a dramatic overhaul, huge improvement, and the first thing that made people really start paying attention to the character at all.
I would argue her backstory and look and attitude are significantly different in YA
She is an abrasive shitbird who hates her utopian society and is a dick all the time in Vengeance
Like
She is literally part of a team of young villains
YA made her heroic and empathetic and cocky rather than abrasive and also her queer identity which is a huge part of her following
America has never not been a dick. I think her abrasiveness is a core character trait at this point. And the whole villain thing was a part of like 10 twists, wrapped up in the way that story was told. Regarding the "they're taking the YA characterization", that's baloney too. People would be happier if they ignored all the character development made since Vengeance because they didn't write that other stuff? That would INFURIATE people. People really hate it when a writer comes in and does a completely different take, it makes it seem like they did no research and just wanted to write whatever. Check out Bendis Moon Knight if you want to see how that goes.
Why would people expect Original Character America Vasquez to keep the character development of America Chavez?
Unless of course, they were really expecting the current characterization of America Chavez, and not the original character that Casey and Dragotta created, and this was a really obvious and blatant attempt to sell the former while tiptoeing around who actually owns that character.
I'm honestly confused. Marvel owns that character? Is there another character related to this?
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
edited March 2020
okay
you're saying that their new "original" character needs to keep the character development that has happened with America Chavez, because people will expect her to be like the version of America Chavez they know and love.
but America Vasquez is not America Chavez. If she was, they would be in trouble because Marvel owns that character, yes. But they are selling an original character that they just created, so there's no reason for her to be beholden to America Chavez' more well known character traits and design.
The only reason to do that is if they wanted to use the fact that they are "the creators of America Chavez" to confuse people into thinking that they are responsible for the version of the character they enjoyed, and that this version will be just like that.
When in fact it seems like it will be a shitty imitation of that, as they have never written a good America Chavez and that preview is a strong indication that they still can't.
UnbrokenEva on
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
Miss America Chavez is a Marvel comics superhero who was created by Joe Casey and Nick Dragotta. She was a minor character in their book, and rose to prominence with Gillen and McKelvie's Young Avengers, where she had a leading role - during this time many of the details of her character were refined and fleshed out.
America Vasquez is an Image comics superhero who was created by Joe Casey and Nick Dragotta. She is, rather blatantly, a rip-off of their own work (which, fine, whatever), as well as the work of Gillen and McKelvie (a lot more questionable) whose comic is marketed as being by the creators of Miss America Chavez.
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UnbrokenEvaHIGH ON THE WIREBUT I WON'T TRIP ITRegistered Userregular
short version: their America Chavez sucked, then other people came along and made her good, and now they're very eager for people to assume they're responsible for the good version and buy their new book even though all they know about good America Chavez comics is what they've seen other people do.
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StraightziHere we may reign secure, and in my choice,To reign is worth ambition though in HellRegistered Userregular
Anyways if you believe that Miss America Chavez was created by Casey and Dragotta then I've got a ship in Athens to sell you
Oh... I'm sorry guys. I presumed they were writing a new volume or arc of a Marvel character America book for Marvel. I misunderstood what they were doing. That doesn't change how I feel about being created for stuff, but does explain more to me what people find distasteful about the new thing.
are they the dudes who wrote that weird Vengeance mini that never went anywhere? Cause tbh that version isn't that different from the one in YA and etc.
it feels more like they're writing a parody of their own character
it was the smallest on the list but
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget
Posts
Domino died in the issue before and her dying words to Colossus were that she didn't want to forget the pain she went through as it was a part of her and she needed to acknowledge it and process it
She comes back this issue and is way more carefree and light and when asked about it she says she remembers what happened but "it feels like it happened to someone else".
THAT'S gonna be a fun thing when folks find out
They were never said to be Inhumans, that was just an assumption people made. They were revealed to have been experimented on by the High Evolutionary, but also Wanda now comes from a lineage of powerful magic users.
The same day Image has announced they are bringing back the dormant ALL-AMERICA COMIX book starring AMERICA VASQUEZ from Joe Casey and Nick Dragotta. They created America Chavez but the version folks actually like came in Gillen and McKelvie's Young Avengers.
It is hard to look worse than Marvel right now after the Safespace shit but boy is announcing an extremely blatant knock-off (that is using the aesthetic and attitude of the version they didn't make) of one of the more prominent Latina characters in comics from 2 middle aged white dudes that has dialogue like this:
Looking worse
Coincidentally, 2005 was around the last time I had a roommate with an X-Men subscription!
I almost feel like that would be necessary so it may not end up being a nefarious thing (I'm sure it is though).
I just don't see how the mortal mind would process trauma happening to the body that is fatal. It seems like a recipe for the biggest case of PTSD possibly imaginable.
But no matter what the reasoning, violating someone's consent by ignoring their request of how they want their own mind to be is EVIL AS HELL
Lots of mutants look like assholes as well.
Didn't we already know that?
Marauders:
Not that it is a regular occurence
It's Maximum Carny shit
Certainly if there is an America movie, the Young Avengers creators should get the special thanks credit. But I've honestly never heard of trying to remove credit from creators before. It's a terrible look.
It's "Liefeld created Deadpool" kinda stuff.
I mean, kinda? Liefeld created nothing about Deadpool that was the reason he became popular. Hell, even the costume/name was just blatantly ripped off of Deathstroke.
And yet, he did create the guy. The answer is openly stating who did what and sharing more credit, not trying to rob people. Young Avengers could have made up a new person completely, they chose not to.
Just ask Bill Finger.
It's less that they are saying they created the character, nobody is disputing that. If they were making a comic based on the character as they created her folks wouldn't have nearly as much of an issue with it.
But they're copying everything Gillen & McKelvie did to actually make the character popular and the clear insinuation is that they're responsible for that too, so by reading their comic you're getting the character you love, by the people who made her. Technically true, but creatively dishonest.
The issue there was horribly unfair wage/ royalty split and then outright lying facilitated by contracts about who did what. Bob Kane shouldn't be deleted from history, it should just be made clear how much he did (and how little).
In the case of America, the original creators made her name, look, backstory, and basic attitude. ALL of which are retained and expanded on in Young Avengers. Matt Fraction's take on Hawkeye was radically different and original but he in no way invented the character. Ditto for lots of characters like this, Black Panther comes to mind. Comics are a collaborative art form and the contributions of most stages aid the work of the next group.
She is an abrasive shitbird who hates her utopian society and is a dick all the time in Vengeance
Like
She is literally part of a team of young villains
YA made her heroic and empathetic and cocky rather than abrasive and also her queer identity which is a huge part of her following
America has never not been a dick. I think her abrasiveness is a core character trait at this point. And the whole villain thing was a part of like 10 twists, wrapped up in the way that story was told. Regarding the "they're taking the YA characterization", that's baloney too. People would be happier if they ignored all the character development made since Vengeance because they didn't write that other stuff? That would INFURIATE people. People really hate it when a writer comes in and does a completely different take, it makes it seem like they did no research and just wanted to write whatever. Check out Bendis Moon Knight if you want to see how that goes.
Notable notes:
They absolutely did not make her "look", aside from her being a young latina with dark hair. Her costume in Vengeance was downright atrocious and Jamie McKelvie's redesign was a dramatic overhaul, huge improvement, and the first thing that made people really start paying attention to the character at all.
Why would people expect Original Character America Vasquez to keep the character development of America Chavez?
Unless of course, they were really expecting the current characterization of America Chavez, and not the original character that Casey and Dragotta created, and this was a really obvious and blatant attempt to sell the former while tiptoeing around who actually owns that character.
This reminds me of how many cool powers the random young mutants during the Academy X days had.
Like Preview, who could see the future, but only the next minute or so.
Or DJ, who had the ability to gain different superpowers based on the type of music he listened to.
Right, but this isn't America Chavez. This isn't a Marvel comic we're talking about, this is America Vasquez, as published by Image.
I'm honestly confused. Marvel owns that character? Is there another character related to this?
you're saying that their new "original" character needs to keep the character development that has happened with America Chavez, because people will expect her to be like the version of America Chavez they know and love.
but America Vasquez is not America Chavez. If she was, they would be in trouble because Marvel owns that character, yes. But they are selling an original character that they just created, so there's no reason for her to be beholden to America Chavez' more well known character traits and design.
The only reason to do that is if they wanted to use the fact that they are "the creators of America Chavez" to confuse people into thinking that they are responsible for the version of the character they enjoyed, and that this version will be just like that.
When in fact it seems like it will be a shitty imitation of that, as they have never written a good America Chavez and that preview is a strong indication that they still can't.
America Vasquez is an Image comics superhero who was created by Joe Casey and Nick Dragotta. She is, rather blatantly, a rip-off of their own work (which, fine, whatever), as well as the work of Gillen and McKelvie (a lot more questionable) whose comic is marketed as being by the creators of Miss America Chavez.
A bunch of these comics are described as having a “Living Vampire variant”
it feels more like they're writing a parody of their own character
Pluto was a planet and I'll never forget