Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
edited May 2020
There's basically only two things that could happen from that fall: complete and utter obliteration of objects by the sheer mass of everything falling, or the extreme edge cases of being on top of something that collapses quickly enough to cushion the overall impact but slowly enough that anybody on top of it isn't immediately bashed to death by the sudden impact. The plate is so massive that it would be possible to have all sorts of unlikely, bizarre micro-situations where the physics result in saving people in unbelievable ways, but I wouldn't count on more than a couple hundred people surviving on top of the plate. That's just the initial impact as well; most survivors would likely be buried or trapped, and even the ones who could still move would have to find their way through a massive field of incredibly hazardous and deadly terrain. So the casualty rate would probably so close to "fucking everybody" as to make no real difference if anybody did manage to survive.
The destruction that happens at that level of force is unreal. Things that seem indestructible get pounded flat, and you get millions of tons of compacted steel and concrete. Anything that was living inside is all but irrecoverable, as it is likely crushed into a thin film of biological material. You could probably dig through the rubble for days and encounter the remains of hundreds of people and never realize they are there.
On the ground, surviving would be possible as long as crap just doesn't slam on top of you. You're going to have lots of random arches formed from the megastructures, and you don't have to survive any kind of fall since you're on the ground. Most stuff would be crushed, but survivors on the ground would be more likely than from on top of the plate.
So, been biting my tongue on this for a while, but gotta put this out there. Spoilers, re:ending and future installments...
I think way too many people are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on not a lot of information or not paying attention to certain details from the established canon.
I'm not sure why everyone is assuming Zack is alive in some alternate timeline. Firstly, the chip bag that flies at the camera and shows the alternate Stamp? I very specifically remember back-and-forth between Tifa and Barret in the train tunnels on the way to the second bombing mission that Stamp was co-opted and underwent heavy changes at one point by Shinra. Therefore, it would seem to me that the chip bag with the different Stamp would be nothing more than a visual indicator the scene(s) with Zack are taking place in the past before Shinra changed Stamp's design and message. Granted, if you're a newcomer to the story, it's an eagle-eyed detail and relies on really listening to all the incidental dialogue closely. That said, it seems fairly cut and dry to me.
Furthermore, people are using the, "Wait...was that all of them?" line as an indication Zack survived past where he did in the "original" timeline. Seems like a lot of those people didn't play Crisis Core, because Zack dies at the edge of a cliff at a closer point to Midgar in the rain.
What happens right at the very end of this game?
It starts raining (presumably at the very same cliff where this all took place since Aerith sees a vision of it), and the foreboding/sad theme song kicks in. We see Zack and Cloud, and there's this moment of synchronicity where Zack seems to smile, sensing Aerith's presence even if separated by time, and Aerith feels this profound sense of loss and sadness and apprehension. Because she knows (either via premonition or sense memory or psychic impressions, what-have-you) that Zack is for sure dead, and this is where it happened. She looks up and laments their newfound "freedom". For newcomers that don't know all the significance at play, this scene should just come off as teases for what's to come. Hey, here's this cool-ass Zack guy. He's sure as fuck connected to Cloud, even wielded the Buster Sword! What's his deal? Tune in next time!
My interpretation of events: there's one timeline where course correction and changes are possible, not two unless we are explicitly told otherwise. Aerith and Sephiroth absolutely have future knowledge and are playing some mad 4D chess with each other, but I think it comes down to either the Planet/Lifestream's power influencing them or your run-of-the-mill, boilerplate psychic premonitions. Doesn't seem wildly outside their powersets.
If I was a betting man, I'd also say this game ended with the heroes playing right into Sephiroth's hand. He wanted Fate/Destiny eliminated so he could control the Whispers' power and not be bound by them. Aerith thinks they did good by freeing up their possibilities, but I think she's going to realize it was a trap and they gave Sephiroth a tremendous leg up, which will ultimately lead her to decide Holy is the only best option, and events will play out more or less how we'd expect them to.
That came off more ranty than I intended but had to get it off my chest.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Zephonate on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli's eyes. And what he saw was...himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."
--John Ajvide Lindqvist, Let the Right One In (Page 446).
I think way too many people are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on not a lot of information or not paying attention to certain details from the established canon.
I'm not sure why everyone is assuming Zack is alive in some alternate timeline. Firstly, the chip bag that flies at the camera and shows the alternate Stamp? I very specifically remember back-and-forth between Tifa and Barret in the train tunnels on the way to the second bombing mission that Stamp was co-opted and underwent heavy changes at one point by Shinra. Therefore, it would seem to me that the chip bag with the different Stamp would be nothing more than a visual indicator the scene(s) with Zack are taking place in the past before Shinra changed Stamp's design and message. Granted, if you're a newcomer to the story, it's an eagle-eyed detail and relies on really listening to all the incidental dialogue closely. That said, it seems fairly cut and dry to me.
They would have to change the Stamp design like the moment he entered Midgar. In the OG Zack dies in that scene, cloud stumbles his way towards Midgar, and Tifa finds him getting off the Sector 7 trainstop. Once Cloud gets it together there on the spot, Tifa offers him the bombing mission job to keep him close. There's barely any time elapsed. Counting the correct number of years since Tifa/Cloud were reunited confirms this. Then ask yourself how old the leaf house lady's Stamp apron probably is. Even if its one timeline, the new stamp is meant to signal changes in history well before this point.
Furthermore, people are using the, "Wait...was that all of them?" line as an indication Zack survived past where he did in the "original" timeline. Seems like a lot of those people didn't play Crisis Core, because Zack dies at the edge of a cliff at a closer point to Midgar in the rain.
In CC most of the battle takes place under sunny skies like the remake ending. It turns cloudy when its down to the very last 3 and starts raining when he is put down. Which is what seems to happen in the remake when both the past and present are shown together under the rain. In Zack's time its the rain coming in as he lugs Cloud along, i.e. past the point he should have been dying in the rain.
Its likely they pushed Zack out farther in remake just so they could show off the fullness of the whispers exploding around midgar. I sure don't remember fighting two separate armies in the desert anyway.
Finally this Ultimania translation makes very clear that the devs are, at a bare minimum, trolling us with him being alive and the big implications that would signal. Spoiled for size:
So, been biting my tongue on this for a while, but gotta put this out there. Spoilers, re:ending and future installments...
I think way too many people are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on not a lot of information or not paying attention to certain details from the established canon.
I'm not sure why everyone is assuming Zack is alive in some alternate timeline. Firstly, the chip bag that flies at the camera and shows the alternate Stamp? I very specifically remember back-and-forth between Tifa and Barret in the train tunnels on the way to the second bombing mission that Stamp was co-opted and underwent heavy changes at one point by Shinra. Therefore, it would seem to me that the chip bag with the different Stamp would be nothing more than a visual indicator the scene(s) with Zack are taking place in the past before Shinra changed Stamp's design and message. Granted, if you're a newcomer to the story, it's an eagle-eyed detail and relies on really listening to all the incidental dialogue closely. That said, it seems fairly cut and dry to me.
Furthermore, people are using the, "Wait...was that all of them?" line as an indication Zack survived past where he did in the "original" timeline. Seems like a lot of those people didn't play Crisis Core, because Zack dies at the edge of a cliff at a closer point to Midgar in the rain.
What happens right at the very end of this game?
It starts raining (presumably at the very same cliff where this all took place since Aerith sees a vision of it), and the foreboding/sad theme song kicks in. We see Zack and Cloud, and there's this moment of synchronicity where Zack seems to smile, sensing Aerith's presence even if separated by time, and Aerith feels this profound sense of loss and sadness and apprehension. Because she knows (either via premonition or sense memory or psychic impressions, what-have-you) that Zack is for sure dead, and this is where it happened. She looks up and laments their newfound "freedom". For newcomers that don't know all the significance at play, this scene should just come off as teases for what's to come. Hey, here's this cool-ass Zack guy. He's sure as fuck connected to Cloud, even wielded the Buster Sword! What's his deal? Tune in next time!
My interpretation of events: there's one timeline where course correction and changes are possible, not two unless we are explicitly told otherwise. Aerith and Sephiroth absolutely have future knowledge and are playing some mad 4D chess with each other, but I think it comes down to either the Planet/Lifestream's power influencing them or your run-of-the-mill, boilerplate psychic premonitions. Doesn't seem wildly outside their powersets.
If I was a betting man, I'd also say this game ended with the heroes playing right into Sephiroth's hand. He wanted Fate/Destiny eliminated so he could control the Whispers' power and not be bound by them. Aerith thinks they did good by freeing up their possibilities, but I think she's going to realize it was a trap and they gave Sephiroth a tremendous leg up, which will ultimately lead her to decide Holy is the only best option, and events will play out more or less how we'd expect them to.
That came off more ranty than I intended but had to get it off my chest.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Yeah, this is basically the exact same way I see that situation.
Nobody in the entirety of Remake so much as even insinuates that there are multiple timelines running. The Whispers are trying to steer events because there is one timeline, things already happened a certain way in that timeline, and Sephiroth ran back the clock and fucked all that up. We have no idea how long Sephiroth has been inside this rewound timeline, though, so there's no telling how long "fate" has been starting to crack; he could very well have gone back to being a child and it's taken him 20-30 years to figure out how take the power of the Whispers. And Zack was also infused with Jenova cells, so Sephiroth should've had a connection to him as well; it would be reasonable that a Sephiroth with foreknowledge would spare Zack as potentially being useful in the future.
Thus far, the only thing getting people to suggest an alternate timeline is the Stamp picture, which is basically a big "so what?" We see a bunch of different Stamp pictures throughout the game anyway, and that bag was obviously an old, worn-out piece of trash; it could've been out there for twenty years, even if Zack and Cloud went through that place only months ago. Further, there's nothing at all to suggest that Zack and Aerith "noticing" one another has anything to do with parallel dimensions or timelines. Both being in connection with the Lifestream, the two just have a vague notion of familiarity in the same spot, separated by time. The shot is mostly thematic, with Zack and Cloud entering Midgar at the start of the story and Aerith leaving at the end.
We've already got time-travel to take care of the plot changes, so I don't see any reason whatsoever why there would be a second dimension or timeline involved. Zack isn't floating around in some other universe, he's already in this universe. Maybe he's still dead before Cloud joins AVALANCHE, or maybe Sephiroth fed him bad info and sent him off as a rogue agent. But Stamp looking different on an old snack bag is anything but convincing as reason for justifying a parallel dimension in play, particularly given that the game explicitly explains that Stamp looked different in the past and the shots with Zack happen in the past.
All the theories are super fun to read but I don't think anyone can say anything is definitive until the next game
I know the Ultimania has "answers" or whatever but tbh it doesn't really mean anything because a) who knows how serious any of their answers actually are, and b) even if they're serious right now, it's still early enough that none of the upcoming plot stuff is set in stone at all
So, been biting my tongue on this for a while, but gotta put this out there. Spoilers, re:ending and future installments...
I think way too many people are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on not a lot of information or not paying attention to certain details from the established canon.
I'm not sure why everyone is assuming Zack is alive in some alternate timeline. Firstly, the chip bag that flies at the camera and shows the alternate Stamp? I very specifically remember back-and-forth between Tifa and Barret in the train tunnels on the way to the second bombing mission that Stamp was co-opted and underwent heavy changes at one point by Shinra. Therefore, it would seem to me that the chip bag with the different Stamp would be nothing more than a visual indicator the scene(s) with Zack are taking place in the past before Shinra changed Stamp's design and message. Granted, if you're a newcomer to the story, it's an eagle-eyed detail and relies on really listening to all the incidental dialogue closely. That said, it seems fairly cut and dry to me.
Furthermore, people are using the, "Wait...was that all of them?" line as an indication Zack survived past where he did in the "original" timeline. Seems like a lot of those people didn't play Crisis Core, because Zack dies at the edge of a cliff at a closer point to Midgar in the rain.
What happens right at the very end of this game?
It starts raining (presumably at the very same cliff where this all took place since Aerith sees a vision of it), and the foreboding/sad theme song kicks in. We see Zack and Cloud, and there's this moment of synchronicity where Zack seems to smile, sensing Aerith's presence even if separated by time, and Aerith feels this profound sense of loss and sadness and apprehension. Because she knows (either via premonition or sense memory or psychic impressions, what-have-you) that Zack is for sure dead, and this is where it happened. She looks up and laments their newfound "freedom". For newcomers that don't know all the significance at play, this scene should just come off as teases for what's to come. Hey, here's this cool-ass Zack guy. He's sure as fuck connected to Cloud, even wielded the Buster Sword! What's his deal? Tune in next time!
My interpretation of events: there's one timeline where course correction and changes are possible, not two unless we are explicitly told otherwise. Aerith and Sephiroth absolutely have future knowledge and are playing some mad 4D chess with each other, but I think it comes down to either the Planet/Lifestream's power influencing them or your run-of-the-mill, boilerplate psychic premonitions. Doesn't seem wildly outside their powersets.
If I was a betting man, I'd also say this game ended with the heroes playing right into Sephiroth's hand. He wanted Fate/Destiny eliminated so he could control the Whispers' power and not be bound by them. Aerith thinks they did good by freeing up their possibilities, but I think she's going to realize it was a trap and they gave Sephiroth a tremendous leg up, which will ultimately lead her to decide Holy is the only best option, and events will play out more or less how we'd expect them to.
That came off more ranty than I intended but had to get it off my chest.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Yeah, this is basically the exact same way I see that situation.
Nobody in the entirety of Remake so much as even insinuates that there are multiple timelines running. The Whispers are trying to steer events because there is one timeline, things already happened a certain way in that timeline, and Sephiroth ran back the clock and fucked all that up. We have no idea how long Sephiroth has been inside this rewound timeline, though, so there's no telling how long "fate" has been starting to crack; he could very well have gone back to being a child and it's taken him 20-30 years to figure out how take the power of the Whispers. And Zack was also infused with Jenova cells, so Sephiroth should've had a connection to him as well; it would be reasonable that a Sephiroth with foreknowledge would spare Zack as potentially being useful in the future.
Thus far, the only thing getting people to suggest an alternate timeline is the Stamp picture, which is basically a big "so what?" We see a bunch of different Stamp pictures throughout the game anyway, and that bag was obviously an old, worn-out piece of trash; it could've been out there for twenty years, even if Zack and Cloud went through that place only months ago. Further, there's nothing at all to suggest that Zack and Aerith "noticing" one another has anything to do with parallel dimensions or timelines. Both being in connection with the Lifestream, the two just have a vague notion of familiarity in the same spot, separated by time. The shot is mostly thematic, with Zack and Cloud entering Midgar at the start of the story and Aerith leaving at the end.
We've already got time-travel to take care of the plot changes, so I don't see any reason whatsoever why there would be a second dimension or timeline involved. Zack isn't floating around in some other universe, he's already in this universe. Maybe he's still dead before Cloud joins AVALANCHE, or maybe Sephiroth fed him bad info and sent him off as a rogue agent. But Stamp looking different on an old snack bag is anything but convincing as reason for justifying a parallel dimension in play, particularly given that the game explicitly explains that Stamp looked different in the past and the shots with Zack happen in the past.
More or less how I see it. Yes, not a lot of time elapses between Cloud and Zack (nearly) arriving at Midgar and Tifa intercepting. But the chip bag of Stamp could've been from years (hell, decades) earlier. I don't think it was anything more than an indicator that what you're seeing is firmly taking place in the past.
And I know Zack technically has already survived past the precise moment he died in Crisis Core, but I'm willing to bet anything they're only prolonging the moment for dramatic effect. I would not be at all surprised if the next game opens with the same exact scene of Zack and Cloud trudging through the rain towards Midgar, we see Zack's face as he senses Aerith again...and then he gets shot from behind. They'll have their parting words, Cloud will scream into the sky, and we'll still not be told the exact significance to Zack until it comes up where it normally would've in the original story. I think the Kalm flashback will immediately follow as a reintroduction/tutorial for dummies skipping part one.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli's eyes. And what he saw was...himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."
--John Ajvide Lindqvist, Let the Right One In (Page 446).
So, been biting my tongue on this for a while, but gotta put this out there. Spoilers, re:ending and future installments...
I think way too many people are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on not a lot of information or not paying attention to certain details from the established canon.
I'm not sure why everyone is assuming Zack is alive in some alternate timeline. Firstly, the chip bag that flies at the camera and shows the alternate Stamp? I very specifically remember back-and-forth between Tifa and Barret in the train tunnels on the way to the second bombing mission that Stamp was co-opted and underwent heavy changes at one point by Shinra. Therefore, it would seem to me that the chip bag with the different Stamp would be nothing more than a visual indicator the scene(s) with Zack are taking place in the past before Shinra changed Stamp's design and message. Granted, if you're a newcomer to the story, it's an eagle-eyed detail and relies on really listening to all the incidental dialogue closely. That said, it seems fairly cut and dry to me.
Furthermore, people are using the, "Wait...was that all of them?" line as an indication Zack survived past where he did in the "original" timeline. Seems like a lot of those people didn't play Crisis Core, because Zack dies at the edge of a cliff at a closer point to Midgar in the rain.
What happens right at the very end of this game?
It starts raining (presumably at the very same cliff where this all took place since Aerith sees a vision of it), and the foreboding/sad theme song kicks in. We see Zack and Cloud, and there's this moment of synchronicity where Zack seems to smile, sensing Aerith's presence even if separated by time, and Aerith feels this profound sense of loss and sadness and apprehension. Because she knows (either via premonition or sense memory or psychic impressions, what-have-you) that Zack is for sure dead, and this is where it happened. She looks up and laments their newfound "freedom". For newcomers that don't know all the significance at play, this scene should just come off as teases for what's to come. Hey, here's this cool-ass Zack guy. He's sure as fuck connected to Cloud, even wielded the Buster Sword! What's his deal? Tune in next time!
My interpretation of events: there's one timeline where course correction and changes are possible, not two unless we are explicitly told otherwise. Aerith and Sephiroth absolutely have future knowledge and are playing some mad 4D chess with each other, but I think it comes down to either the Planet/Lifestream's power influencing them or your run-of-the-mill, boilerplate psychic premonitions. Doesn't seem wildly outside their powersets.
If I was a betting man, I'd also say this game ended with the heroes playing right into Sephiroth's hand. He wanted Fate/Destiny eliminated so he could control the Whispers' power and not be bound by them. Aerith thinks they did good by freeing up their possibilities, but I think she's going to realize it was a trap and they gave Sephiroth a tremendous leg up, which will ultimately lead her to decide Holy is the only best option, and events will play out more or less how we'd expect them to.
That came off more ranty than I intended but had to get it off my chest.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Yeah, this is basically the exact same way I see that situation.
Nobody in the entirety of Remake so much as even insinuates that there are multiple timelines running. The Whispers are trying to steer events because there is one timeline, things already happened a certain way in that timeline, and Sephiroth ran back the clock and fucked all that up. We have no idea how long Sephiroth has been inside this rewound timeline, though, so there's no telling how long "fate" has been starting to crack; he could very well have gone back to being a child and it's taken him 20-30 years to figure out how take the power of the Whispers. And Zack was also infused with Jenova cells, so Sephiroth should've had a connection to him as well; it would be reasonable that a Sephiroth with foreknowledge would spare Zack as potentially being useful in the future.
Thus far, the only thing getting people to suggest an alternate timeline is the Stamp picture, which is basically a big "so what?" We see a bunch of different Stamp pictures throughout the game anyway, and that bag was obviously an old, worn-out piece of trash; it could've been out there for twenty years, even if Zack and Cloud went through that place only months ago. Further, there's nothing at all to suggest that Zack and Aerith "noticing" one another has anything to do with parallel dimensions or timelines. Both being in connection with the Lifestream, the two just have a vague notion of familiarity in the same spot, separated by time. The shot is mostly thematic, with Zack and Cloud entering Midgar at the start of the story and Aerith leaving at the end.
We've already got time-travel to take care of the plot changes, so I don't see any reason whatsoever why there would be a second dimension or timeline involved. Zack isn't floating around in some other universe, he's already in this universe. Maybe he's still dead before Cloud joins AVALANCHE, or maybe Sephiroth fed him bad info and sent him off as a rogue agent. But Stamp looking different on an old snack bag is anything but convincing as reason for justifying a parallel dimension in play, particularly given that the game explicitly explains that Stamp looked different in the past and the shots with Zack happen in the past.
More or less how I see it. Yes, not a lot of time elapses between Cloud and Zack (nearly) arriving at Midgar and Tifa intercepting. But the chip bag of Stamp could've been from years (hell, decades) earlier. I don't think it was anything more than an indicator that what you're seeing is firmly taking place in the past.
And I know Zack technically has already survived past the precise moment he died in Crisis Core, but I'm willing to bet anything they're only prolonging the moment for dramatic effect. I would not be at all surprised if the next game opens with the same exact scene of Zack and Cloud trudging through the rain towards Midgar, we see Zack's face as he senses Aerith again...and then he gets shot from behind. They'll have their parting words, Cloud will scream into the sky, and we'll still not be told the exact significance to Zack until it comes up where it normally would've in the original story. I think the Kalm flashback will immediately follow as a reintroduction/tutorial for dummies skipping part one.
Lingering on the bag just to tell us "this scene is in the past" really doesn't make any sense when "the past" in this case is actually just like, a week ago. Especially when, if that's what they're trying to do, they accomplish the same thing but way more effectively when the two groups pass by each other later. Whether there's just one timeline that's been altered or multiple new timelines or whatever, showing the bag with a different dog is definitely meant to show more than just "this was a week ago". All that other stuff could happen the way you describe (although I don't think it will), but the bag to me is a clear indicator of some sort of change to the world's reality.
So, been biting my tongue on this for a while, but gotta put this out there. Spoilers, re:ending and future installments...
I think way too many people are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on not a lot of information or not paying attention to certain details from the established canon.
I'm not sure why everyone is assuming Zack is alive in some alternate timeline. Firstly, the chip bag that flies at the camera and shows the alternate Stamp? I very specifically remember back-and-forth between Tifa and Barret in the train tunnels on the way to the second bombing mission that Stamp was co-opted and underwent heavy changes at one point by Shinra. Therefore, it would seem to me that the chip bag with the different Stamp would be nothing more than a visual indicator the scene(s) with Zack are taking place in the past before Shinra changed Stamp's design and message. Granted, if you're a newcomer to the story, it's an eagle-eyed detail and relies on really listening to all the incidental dialogue closely. That said, it seems fairly cut and dry to me.
Furthermore, people are using the, "Wait...was that all of them?" line as an indication Zack survived past where he did in the "original" timeline. Seems like a lot of those people didn't play Crisis Core, because Zack dies at the edge of a cliff at a closer point to Midgar in the rain.
What happens right at the very end of this game?
It starts raining (presumably at the very same cliff where this all took place since Aerith sees a vision of it), and the foreboding/sad theme song kicks in. We see Zack and Cloud, and there's this moment of synchronicity where Zack seems to smile, sensing Aerith's presence even if separated by time, and Aerith feels this profound sense of loss and sadness and apprehension. Because she knows (either via premonition or sense memory or psychic impressions, what-have-you) that Zack is for sure dead, and this is where it happened. She looks up and laments their newfound "freedom". For newcomers that don't know all the significance at play, this scene should just come off as teases for what's to come. Hey, here's this cool-ass Zack guy. He's sure as fuck connected to Cloud, even wielded the Buster Sword! What's his deal? Tune in next time!
My interpretation of events: there's one timeline where course correction and changes are possible, not two unless we are explicitly told otherwise. Aerith and Sephiroth absolutely have future knowledge and are playing some mad 4D chess with each other, but I think it comes down to either the Planet/Lifestream's power influencing them or your run-of-the-mill, boilerplate psychic premonitions. Doesn't seem wildly outside their powersets.
If I was a betting man, I'd also say this game ended with the heroes playing right into Sephiroth's hand. He wanted Fate/Destiny eliminated so he could control the Whispers' power and not be bound by them. Aerith thinks they did good by freeing up their possibilities, but I think she's going to realize it was a trap and they gave Sephiroth a tremendous leg up, which will ultimately lead her to decide Holy is the only best option, and events will play out more or less how we'd expect them to.
That came off more ranty than I intended but had to get it off my chest.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Yeah, this is basically the exact same way I see that situation.
Nobody in the entirety of Remake so much as even insinuates that there are multiple timelines running. The Whispers are trying to steer events because there is one timeline, things already happened a certain way in that timeline, and Sephiroth ran back the clock and fucked all that up. We have no idea how long Sephiroth has been inside this rewound timeline, though, so there's no telling how long "fate" has been starting to crack; he could very well have gone back to being a child and it's taken him 20-30 years to figure out how take the power of the Whispers. And Zack was also infused with Jenova cells, so Sephiroth should've had a connection to him as well; it would be reasonable that a Sephiroth with foreknowledge would spare Zack as potentially being useful in the future.
Thus far, the only thing getting people to suggest an alternate timeline is the Stamp picture, which is basically a big "so what?" We see a bunch of different Stamp pictures throughout the game anyway, and that bag was obviously an old, worn-out piece of trash; it could've been out there for twenty years, even if Zack and Cloud went through that place only months ago. Further, there's nothing at all to suggest that Zack and Aerith "noticing" one another has anything to do with parallel dimensions or timelines. Both being in connection with the Lifestream, the two just have a vague notion of familiarity in the same spot, separated by time. The shot is mostly thematic, with Zack and Cloud entering Midgar at the start of the story and Aerith leaving at the end.
We've already got time-travel to take care of the plot changes, so I don't see any reason whatsoever why there would be a second dimension or timeline involved. Zack isn't floating around in some other universe, he's already in this universe. Maybe he's still dead before Cloud joins AVALANCHE, or maybe Sephiroth fed him bad info and sent him off as a rogue agent. But Stamp looking different on an old snack bag is anything but convincing as reason for justifying a parallel dimension in play, particularly given that the game explicitly explains that Stamp looked different in the past and the shots with Zack happen in the past.
More or less how I see it. Yes, not a lot of time elapses between Cloud and Zack (nearly) arriving at Midgar and Tifa intercepting. But the chip bag of Stamp could've been from years (hell, decades) earlier. I don't think it was anything more than an indicator that what you're seeing is firmly taking place in the past.
And I know Zack technically has already survived past the precise moment he died in Crisis Core, but I'm willing to bet anything they're only prolonging the moment for dramatic effect. I would not be at all surprised if the next game opens with the same exact scene of Zack and Cloud trudging through the rain towards Midgar, we see Zack's face as he senses Aerith again...and then he gets shot from behind. They'll have their parting words, Cloud will scream into the sky, and we'll still not be told the exact significance to Zack until it comes up where it normally would've in the original story. I think the Kalm flashback will immediately follow as a reintroduction/tutorial for dummies skipping part one.
Alternative to twist the knife more:
Zack makes it to Midgar, and the Turks finally catch up to him (I've not played CC for ages, but I think they were looking for him too, the military just caught up to him first?). One of them (I'd guess Tseng) convinces him that being near Aerith puts them both in danger, so they make a deal where Zack vanishes. Shinra is looking for a pair; the SOLDIER with a big sword and black hair, and a blond spike-haired guard. Zack gives up his most identifying feature (or just leaves Cloud to look after it while he goes to the bathroom), then sees Tifa come along and take him in. Cloud'll be all right, and less of a target if he isn't near Zack, so he leaves.
Cloud is left to come up with his new identity as he originally did, and Zack has an entire world to get lost in, or a home in Gongaga to return to.
Which is when the Jenova cells he's been injected with start to really kick in, so he's another person feeling the pull to the Northern Crater for the Reunion.
There's a bunch of possibilities with that, but I can see a fight against a Reunion-obsessed Zack happening at some point. This is a game that likes its one-on-one boss fights, after all. One that's basically a copy of Cloud with some slightly different moves could be good.
So, been biting my tongue on this for a while, but gotta put this out there. Spoilers, re:ending and future installments...
I think way too many people are jumping to a lot of conclusions based on not a lot of information or not paying attention to certain details from the established canon.
I'm not sure why everyone is assuming Zack is alive in some alternate timeline. Firstly, the chip bag that flies at the camera and shows the alternate Stamp? I very specifically remember back-and-forth between Tifa and Barret in the train tunnels on the way to the second bombing mission that Stamp was co-opted and underwent heavy changes at one point by Shinra. Therefore, it would seem to me that the chip bag with the different Stamp would be nothing more than a visual indicator the scene(s) with Zack are taking place in the past before Shinra changed Stamp's design and message. Granted, if you're a newcomer to the story, it's an eagle-eyed detail and relies on really listening to all the incidental dialogue closely. That said, it seems fairly cut and dry to me.
Furthermore, people are using the, "Wait...was that all of them?" line as an indication Zack survived past where he did in the "original" timeline. Seems like a lot of those people didn't play Crisis Core, because Zack dies at the edge of a cliff at a closer point to Midgar in the rain.
What happens right at the very end of this game?
It starts raining (presumably at the very same cliff where this all took place since Aerith sees a vision of it), and the foreboding/sad theme song kicks in. We see Zack and Cloud, and there's this moment of synchronicity where Zack seems to smile, sensing Aerith's presence even if separated by time, and Aerith feels this profound sense of loss and sadness and apprehension. Because she knows (either via premonition or sense memory or psychic impressions, what-have-you) that Zack is for sure dead, and this is where it happened. She looks up and laments their newfound "freedom". For newcomers that don't know all the significance at play, this scene should just come off as teases for what's to come. Hey, here's this cool-ass Zack guy. He's sure as fuck connected to Cloud, even wielded the Buster Sword! What's his deal? Tune in next time!
My interpretation of events: there's one timeline where course correction and changes are possible, not two unless we are explicitly told otherwise. Aerith and Sephiroth absolutely have future knowledge and are playing some mad 4D chess with each other, but I think it comes down to either the Planet/Lifestream's power influencing them or your run-of-the-mill, boilerplate psychic premonitions. Doesn't seem wildly outside their powersets.
If I was a betting man, I'd also say this game ended with the heroes playing right into Sephiroth's hand. He wanted Fate/Destiny eliminated so he could control the Whispers' power and not be bound by them. Aerith thinks they did good by freeing up their possibilities, but I think she's going to realize it was a trap and they gave Sephiroth a tremendous leg up, which will ultimately lead her to decide Holy is the only best option, and events will play out more or less how we'd expect them to.
That came off more ranty than I intended but had to get it off my chest.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
Yeah, this is basically the exact same way I see that situation.
Nobody in the entirety of Remake so much as even insinuates that there are multiple timelines running. The Whispers are trying to steer events because there is one timeline, things already happened a certain way in that timeline, and Sephiroth ran back the clock and fucked all that up. We have no idea how long Sephiroth has been inside this rewound timeline, though, so there's no telling how long "fate" has been starting to crack; he could very well have gone back to being a child and it's taken him 20-30 years to figure out how take the power of the Whispers. And Zack was also infused with Jenova cells, so Sephiroth should've had a connection to him as well; it would be reasonable that a Sephiroth with foreknowledge would spare Zack as potentially being useful in the future.
Thus far, the only thing getting people to suggest an alternate timeline is the Stamp picture, which is basically a big "so what?" We see a bunch of different Stamp pictures throughout the game anyway, and that bag was obviously an old, worn-out piece of trash; it could've been out there for twenty years, even if Zack and Cloud went through that place only months ago. Further, there's nothing at all to suggest that Zack and Aerith "noticing" one another has anything to do with parallel dimensions or timelines. Both being in connection with the Lifestream, the two just have a vague notion of familiarity in the same spot, separated by time. The shot is mostly thematic, with Zack and Cloud entering Midgar at the start of the story and Aerith leaving at the end.
We've already got time-travel to take care of the plot changes, so I don't see any reason whatsoever why there would be a second dimension or timeline involved. Zack isn't floating around in some other universe, he's already in this universe. Maybe he's still dead before Cloud joins AVALANCHE, or maybe Sephiroth fed him bad info and sent him off as a rogue agent. But Stamp looking different on an old snack bag is anything but convincing as reason for justifying a parallel dimension in play, particularly given that the game explicitly explains that Stamp looked different in the past and the shots with Zack happen in the past.
More or less how I see it. Yes, not a lot of time elapses between Cloud and Zack (nearly) arriving at Midgar and Tifa intercepting. But the chip bag of Stamp could've been from years (hell, decades) earlier. I don't think it was anything more than an indicator that what you're seeing is firmly taking place in the past.
And I know Zack technically has already survived past the precise moment he died in Crisis Core, but I'm willing to bet anything they're only prolonging the moment for dramatic effect. I would not be at all surprised if the next game opens with the same exact scene of Zack and Cloud trudging through the rain towards Midgar, we see Zack's face as he senses Aerith again...and then he gets shot from behind. They'll have their parting words, Cloud will scream into the sky, and we'll still not be told the exact significance to Zack until it comes up where it normally would've in the original story. I think the Kalm flashback will immediately follow as a reintroduction/tutorial for dummies skipping part one.
Alternative to twist the knife more:
Zack makes it to Midgar, and the Turks finally catch up to him (I've not played CC for ages, but I think they were looking for him too, the military just caught up to him first?). One of them (I'd guess Tseng) convinces him that being near Aerith puts them both in danger, so they make a deal where Zack vanishes. Shinra is looking for a pair; the SOLDIER with a big sword and black hair, and a blond spike-haired guard. Zack gives up his most identifying feature (or just leaves Cloud to look after it while he goes to the bathroom), then sees Tifa come along and take him in. Cloud'll be all right, and less of a target if he isn't near Zack, so he leaves.
Cloud is left to come up with his new identity as he originally did, and Zack has an entire world to get lost in, or a home in Gongaga to return to.
Which is when the Jenova cells he's been injected with start to really kick in, so he's another person feeling the pull to the Northern Crater for the Reunion.
There's a bunch of possibilities with that, but I can see a fight against a Reunion-obsessed Zack happening at some point. This is a game that likes its one-on-one boss fights, after all. One that's basically a copy of Cloud with some slightly different moves could be good.
I am...not sure how I'd feel about that. Honestly,
most would agree it's pretty essential to the flow of the story and Cloud's development for Zack to be dead, not just gone. I could see it working, depending how much they tweak it, but it'll be a feat of restructuring to make it all remain cohesive and satisfying.
Personally, I just don't see a realistic version of the next game(s) panning out where Zack is alive, especially given that Nomura said in a recent interview (likely to calm the butthurt fans) something to the effect of "FFVII's story will play out largely as you remember it."
Now, what I COULD see happening, and would be badass, is Zack coming back in a different way. I feel like they intentionally shot their load at the end of this game by showing us the Edge of Creation/scene of the final-final battle with Sephiroth. I'm thinking once the time comes for that scene to happen where it normally would have, the twist might not be, "oh, Cloud's whole now and accepts who he is and is much more powerful and has Omnislash so he's gonna fucking wreck Sephiroth in one attack", like the original. I think we might get a figment of Zack show up in that fight, and then they both tag team/finish off Sephiroth. We might even get a one-wing Zack on Sephiroth fight. That'd be cool. Would be a neat inverse on the, "I will never be a memory," concept.
But, now we're getting into fanwank and pipe dreams.
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli's eyes. And what he saw was...himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."
--John Ajvide Lindqvist, Let the Right One In (Page 446).
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
Finally got around to framing this, featuring cool extras from PAX and @Shadowfire
Thanks again for the Shinra ID card, it is super cool!
Hand-waving the Zack scene as just another flashback has three problems:
1. We specifically see the Whispers surrounding the Shinra building and then destroyed in Zack's timeline. The Whispers are directly attached to "how the canon used to be." There is no need to show this unless they're explicitly making a change.
2. The Stamp change being a non-sequitur only makes sense if they're trying to mislead us. Several posts above have tackled why this doesn't make sense from a storytelling perspective. If it does wind up being nothing, it'll be like dark matter in Mass Effect - an idea that was abandoned.
3. The timing of showing the scene is wrong. If they just wanted to reveal some of the past, like they did with flashbacks in other parts of the game, why wait until the finale? It's not a big reveal unless it means something significant.
Triptycho: A card-and-dice tabletop indie RPG currently in development and playtesting
Hand-waving the Zack scene as just another flashback has three problems:
1. We specifically see the Whispers surrounding the Shinra building and then destroyed in Zack's timeline. The Whispers are directly attached to "how the canon used to be." There is no need to show this unless they're explicitly making a change.
2. The Stamp change being a non-sequitur only makes sense if they're trying to mislead us. Several posts above have tackled why this doesn't make sense from a storytelling perspective. If it does wind up being nothing, it'll be like dark matter in Mass Effect - an idea that was abandoned.
3. The timing of showing the scene is wrong. If they just wanted to reveal some of the past, like they did with flashbacks in other parts of the game, why wait until the finale? It's not a big reveal unless it means something significant.
1. I interpret the Whispers surrounding the Shinra building (in the past) as them seeing it as imperative Zack not reach Midgar. Maybe where exactly he dies on the way there (or if, I guess) might be ancillary, so long as he doesn't enter the city. The way these creatures behave indicates they know exactly where the temporal fulcrums are and what has to be prevented from happening and what doesn't. They don't seem to act in broad strokes.
2. I'm not saying it's a non-sequitur, I'm more just trying to make the argument it might not mean what we think it does, or at the very least it might not be quite as important as people are making out to be.
3. Again, I don't interpret that scene being at the end as them revealing anything. I see it as a tease of what's to come. Because normies would have absolutely no idea who Zack is and why he's important, so that scene is meaningless to a newcomer other than to set up the next game. And yes, Square Enix does consider this the fifth installment in the Compilation and yes in many ways it can be seen as a sequel (unless we're told otherwise and these end up being straight retcons), but they know they're going to alienate a large part of their audience if they only cater to fans of the original. Even if every single fan of the original bought the game, I don't think that would be considered a success for them, so they need to consider people who know nothing about FFVII when crafting this series. Otherwise, they might've given SOME indication in the marketing this wasn't just a straight-up remake.
We also all have to keep in mind this is Nomura we're talking about. Even when the man is on his A game, I think it'd be charitable to call his plotting messy at times.
Zephonate on
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli's eyes. And what he saw was...himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."
--John Ajvide Lindqvist, Let the Right One In (Page 446).
1. In the altered or alternate timeline Zack is knocked down by those whispers around midgar exploding, so they aren't doing jack to stop him from getting to Midgar now. Unless their faint ember remains raining down are supposed to do something.
3. I don't rule out your interpretation but I find this game pretty damn cavalier about people who aren't deep into the Compilation let alone newcomers. A ton of contextless flash forwards and references that are unexplained in this game. Like they don't even show the overgrown midgar that is the whole point of the little video of Red running through the canyon shown in the whispers fight. Nomura said he felt the slow, Jaws-inspired buildup to Sephiroth reveal to be pointless now because "everyone" already knows him, which is why he's constantly thrown in our face now. Even Evangelion Rebuild didn't bother with the blatant meta commentary/apology that the plot ghosts are for daring to make changes to canon. They seem a little high on their own supply and way out of touch with the newcomer, I doubt much of this game makes any sense to them. At least the player just has to hit things and doesn't have to solve the mystery like an Ace Attorney game.
I’m not really worried about new players, because of all the story criticisms around stuff like Zack, and the Whispers, and Sephiroth, the one from new players that say they had no idea what was going on seems to be very, very rare. By all accounts the game is actually very good at telling the story they want to tell and conveying plot in an effective way
Except that weird Planet of the Apes ‘you blew it up’ moment we got with Cait Sith when the plate fell. That was super weird and out of place and is NEVER mentioned and added absolutely nothing
Javen on
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AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
My theory
Zack is Roche!
Wouldn't that be awful?
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Hand-waving the Zack scene as just another flashback has three problems:
1. We specifically see the Whispers surrounding the Shinra building and then destroyed in Zack's timeline. The Whispers are directly attached to "how the canon used to be." There is no need to show this unless they're explicitly making a change.
2. The Stamp change being a non-sequitur only makes sense if they're trying to mislead us. Several posts above have tackled why this doesn't make sense from a storytelling perspective. If it does wind up being nothing, it'll be like dark matter in Mass Effect - an idea that was abandoned.
3. The timing of showing the scene is wrong. If they just wanted to reveal some of the past, like they did with flashbacks in other parts of the game, why wait until the finale? It's not a big reveal unless it means something significant.
I don't think the Stamp image is a decoy or non sequitur situation, I think it's explicitly communicating "this happened in the past" and people are conflating a different time to mean a different reality. Barret straight up tells us Stamp used to look different, which means the old Stamp would be in prior events. Barret also doesn't say when the change happened, only that Stamp used to look different; it could very well be that Shinra has recently done a rebranding with Stamp and the new design is only months old. Further, Zack surviving into the city means there's no telling if he got there weeks or even months before the original story; we could be looking at a significant time difference from the original game.
As for timing, I think it's thematically fine. We're watching the end of the story we thought we were getting, and so they're showing us where that story began to change. And now when Zack shows up in the next game, we don't need an explanation because it was already handled by a brief scene in this game. So it takes care of a character introduction along with having a nice aspect of symmetry.
Further, it could be they just felt like cramming Zack in there because they want people to know he's alive in the setting, much like the random Cait Sith shot that linked to nothing. Aside from Aerith noticing something, it may be totally incidental and meaningless that the cutscene happens at the end other than to show Zack as alive.
Is there a translation of the signage around Midgar somewhere? I know most of it is probably inconsequential, but I'm always curious about stuff like that.
AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
What happened to Roche anyway? The game just kinda forgets about him.
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Dark Raven XLaugh hard, run fast,be kindRegistered Userregular
edited May 2020
He had to go derail some other story
(I loved Roche)
He might show up again, assuming we ever get up to later events - he would be very easy to slot into Junon or the return to Midgar. Maybe he'll pop up during the Huge Materia hunt.
Finishing my FF8 rerun:
Squall is much less annoying than I remember, I appreciate that despite his flaws it's very easy to curb his more jerkish side with good dialogue choices. Lionheart remains a game ender. I forgot to unlock Resurrection for Ultimecia and ended up soloing the last two phases with that gunblade alone.
Rinoa has a fun personality, but is pretty useless in combat with a terrible limit break.
Selphie is a perky serial killer and I forgot how many of her lines are just adorably vicious.
Irvine is a combat beast, and the twist on his character is pretty nice (pretends to be a ladies man but only to impress Selphie).
Zell's in the ok category but as a monk/martial artist he's pretty top tier in the series.
It's funny that Quistis is presented initially as the mature, competent one, but after the game's intro she makes some of the poorest choices of any of the group.
And of course, the flashback crew could have had their own game and I wouldn't have minded at all.
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
Chapter 11 boss:
Someone help me break the loop. The boss rides around swinging his lance, I stand in front of him to counter with cloud, that spot gets selected for a javelin, I can't counter, he keeps running around.
I'm keeping everyone alive with Prayer, but actually dealing damage is a pain in the ass.
It's a Dissidia NT alternate skin. I just think both the color and design shift are really neat.
For those that are wondering, Squall has a Lion motif, and the "mane" has shifted from his jacket to his hair. I think it's the perfect design for an early 20s Squall.
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Kai_SanCommonly known as Klineshrike!Registered Userregular
Rinoa is a broken one-trick pony if you do Angel Wing with Meteor as your only offensive skill and massively boosted speed. She practically solo'd all of the later bosses for me. With Quistis along to one-shot any trash in the game it makes Squall look like dead weight.
I didn't know about that trick, but the dog cannon never gets old.
Angelo is a good boi.
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silence1186Character shields down!As a wingmanRegistered Userregular
Chapter 12:
So you're all kidding when you talk about future chapters, right?
Because Cloud cannot beat two Helitroopers by himself. I refuse to believe it. Both out of reach, whichever you run at, the other shoots you in the back, if you heal they swoop in and stab you for more than you heal.
Roche sucks and I hope he never shows up again. In a game filled with actually interesting people, he's a cartoon character with no humanity. I get he's supposed to show how weird SOLDIERs are, but he's a bad execution of that idea.
Posts
The destruction that happens at that level of force is unreal. Things that seem indestructible get pounded flat, and you get millions of tons of compacted steel and concrete. Anything that was living inside is all but irrecoverable, as it is likely crushed into a thin film of biological material. You could probably dig through the rubble for days and encounter the remains of hundreds of people and never realize they are there.
On the ground, surviving would be possible as long as crap just doesn't slam on top of you. You're going to have lots of random arches formed from the megastructures, and you don't have to survive any kind of fall since you're on the ground. Most stuff would be crushed, but survivors on the ground would be more likely than from on top of the plate.
I'm not sure why everyone is assuming Zack is alive in some alternate timeline. Firstly, the chip bag that flies at the camera and shows the alternate Stamp? I very specifically remember back-and-forth between Tifa and Barret in the train tunnels on the way to the second bombing mission that Stamp was co-opted and underwent heavy changes at one point by Shinra. Therefore, it would seem to me that the chip bag with the different Stamp would be nothing more than a visual indicator the scene(s) with Zack are taking place in the past before Shinra changed Stamp's design and message. Granted, if you're a newcomer to the story, it's an eagle-eyed detail and relies on really listening to all the incidental dialogue closely. That said, it seems fairly cut and dry to me.
Furthermore, people are using the, "Wait...was that all of them?" line as an indication Zack survived past where he did in the "original" timeline. Seems like a lot of those people didn't play Crisis Core, because Zack dies at the edge of a cliff at a closer point to Midgar in the rain.
What happens right at the very end of this game?
It starts raining (presumably at the very same cliff where this all took place since Aerith sees a vision of it), and the foreboding/sad theme song kicks in. We see Zack and Cloud, and there's this moment of synchronicity where Zack seems to smile, sensing Aerith's presence even if separated by time, and Aerith feels this profound sense of loss and sadness and apprehension. Because she knows (either via premonition or sense memory or psychic impressions, what-have-you) that Zack is for sure dead, and this is where it happened. She looks up and laments their newfound "freedom". For newcomers that don't know all the significance at play, this scene should just come off as teases for what's to come. Hey, here's this cool-ass Zack guy. He's sure as fuck connected to Cloud, even wielded the Buster Sword! What's his deal? Tune in next time!
My interpretation of events: there's one timeline where course correction and changes are possible, not two unless we are explicitly told otherwise. Aerith and Sephiroth absolutely have future knowledge and are playing some mad 4D chess with each other, but I think it comes down to either the Planet/Lifestream's power influencing them or your run-of-the-mill, boilerplate psychic premonitions. Doesn't seem wildly outside their powersets.
If I was a betting man, I'd also say this game ended with the heroes playing right into Sephiroth's hand. He wanted Fate/Destiny eliminated so he could control the Whispers' power and not be bound by them. Aerith thinks they did good by freeing up their possibilities, but I think she's going to realize it was a trap and they gave Sephiroth a tremendous leg up, which will ultimately lead her to decide Holy is the only best option, and events will play out more or less how we'd expect them to.
That came off more ranty than I intended but had to get it off my chest.
Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.
"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli's eyes. And what he saw was...himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."
--John Ajvide Lindqvist, Let the Right One In (Page 446).
They would have to change the Stamp design like the moment he entered Midgar. In the OG Zack dies in that scene, cloud stumbles his way towards Midgar, and Tifa finds him getting off the Sector 7 trainstop. Once Cloud gets it together there on the spot, Tifa offers him the bombing mission job to keep him close. There's barely any time elapsed. Counting the correct number of years since Tifa/Cloud were reunited confirms this. Then ask yourself how old the leaf house lady's Stamp apron probably is. Even if its one timeline, the new stamp is meant to signal changes in history well before this point.
In CC most of the battle takes place under sunny skies like the remake ending. It turns cloudy when its down to the very last 3 and starts raining when he is put down. Which is what seems to happen in the remake when both the past and present are shown together under the rain. In Zack's time its the rain coming in as he lugs Cloud along, i.e. past the point he should have been dying in the rain.
Its likely they pushed Zack out farther in remake just so they could show off the fullness of the whispers exploding around midgar. I sure don't remember fighting two separate armies in the desert anyway.
Finally this Ultimania translation makes very clear that the devs are, at a bare minimum, trolling us with him being alive and the big implications that would signal. Spoiled for size:
Yeah, this is basically the exact same way I see that situation.
Thus far, the only thing getting people to suggest an alternate timeline is the Stamp picture, which is basically a big "so what?" We see a bunch of different Stamp pictures throughout the game anyway, and that bag was obviously an old, worn-out piece of trash; it could've been out there for twenty years, even if Zack and Cloud went through that place only months ago. Further, there's nothing at all to suggest that Zack and Aerith "noticing" one another has anything to do with parallel dimensions or timelines. Both being in connection with the Lifestream, the two just have a vague notion of familiarity in the same spot, separated by time. The shot is mostly thematic, with Zack and Cloud entering Midgar at the start of the story and Aerith leaving at the end.
We've already got time-travel to take care of the plot changes, so I don't see any reason whatsoever why there would be a second dimension or timeline involved. Zack isn't floating around in some other universe, he's already in this universe. Maybe he's still dead before Cloud joins AVALANCHE, or maybe Sephiroth fed him bad info and sent him off as a rogue agent. But Stamp looking different on an old snack bag is anything but convincing as reason for justifying a parallel dimension in play, particularly given that the game explicitly explains that Stamp looked different in the past and the shots with Zack happen in the past.
Feels just like people talking about the original game's ending and mysteries all over again oh so many years ago.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
I know the Ultimania has "answers" or whatever but tbh it doesn't really mean anything because a) who knows how serious any of their answers actually are, and b) even if they're serious right now, it's still early enough that none of the upcoming plot stuff is set in stone at all
I don't have faith Square will do the latter to any satisfying degree.
Do... Re... Mi... So... Fa.... Do... Re.... Do...
Forget it...
And I know Zack technically has already survived past the precise moment he died in Crisis Core, but I'm willing to bet anything they're only prolonging the moment for dramatic effect. I would not be at all surprised if the next game opens with the same exact scene of Zack and Cloud trudging through the rain towards Midgar, we see Zack's face as he senses Aerith again...and then he gets shot from behind. They'll have their parting words, Cloud will scream into the sky, and we'll still not be told the exact significance to Zack until it comes up where it normally would've in the original story. I think the Kalm flashback will immediately follow as a reintroduction/tutorial for dummies skipping part one.
"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli's eyes. And what he saw was...himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."
--John Ajvide Lindqvist, Let the Right One In (Page 446).
Golden?
Zack makes it to Midgar, and the Turks finally catch up to him (I've not played CC for ages, but I think they were looking for him too, the military just caught up to him first?). One of them (I'd guess Tseng) convinces him that being near Aerith puts them both in danger, so they make a deal where Zack vanishes. Shinra is looking for a pair; the SOLDIER with a big sword and black hair, and a blond spike-haired guard. Zack gives up his most identifying feature (or just leaves Cloud to look after it while he goes to the bathroom), then sees Tifa come along and take him in. Cloud'll be all right, and less of a target if he isn't near Zack, so he leaves.
Cloud is left to come up with his new identity as he originally did, and Zack has an entire world to get lost in, or a home in Gongaga to return to.
Which is when the Jenova cells he's been injected with start to really kick in, so he's another person feeling the pull to the Northern Crater for the Reunion.
There's a bunch of possibilities with that, but I can see a fight against a Reunion-obsessed Zack happening at some point. This is a game that likes its one-on-one boss fights, after all. One that's basically a copy of Cloud with some slightly different moves could be good.
I am...not sure how I'd feel about that. Honestly,
Personally, I just don't see a realistic version of the next game(s) panning out where Zack is alive, especially given that Nomura said in a recent interview (likely to calm the butthurt fans) something to the effect of "FFVII's story will play out largely as you remember it."
Now, what I COULD see happening, and would be badass, is Zack coming back in a different way. I feel like they intentionally shot their load at the end of this game by showing us the Edge of Creation/scene of the final-final battle with Sephiroth. I'm thinking once the time comes for that scene to happen where it normally would have, the twist might not be, "oh, Cloud's whole now and accepts who he is and is much more powerful and has Omnislash so he's gonna fucking wreck Sephiroth in one attack", like the original. I think we might get a figment of Zack show up in that fight, and then they both tag team/finish off Sephiroth. We might even get a one-wing Zack on Sephiroth fight. That'd be cool. Would be a neat inverse on the, "I will never be a memory," concept.
But, now we're getting into fanwank and pipe dreams.
"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli's eyes. And what he saw was...himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."
--John Ajvide Lindqvist, Let the Right One In (Page 446).
Thanks again for the Shinra ID card, it is super cool!
1. We specifically see the Whispers surrounding the Shinra building and then destroyed in Zack's timeline. The Whispers are directly attached to "how the canon used to be." There is no need to show this unless they're explicitly making a change.
2. The Stamp change being a non-sequitur only makes sense if they're trying to mislead us. Several posts above have tackled why this doesn't make sense from a storytelling perspective. If it does wind up being nothing, it'll be like dark matter in Mass Effect - an idea that was abandoned.
3. The timing of showing the scene is wrong. If they just wanted to reveal some of the past, like they did with flashbacks in other parts of the game, why wait until the finale? It's not a big reveal unless it means something significant.
2. I'm not saying it's a non-sequitur, I'm more just trying to make the argument it might not mean what we think it does, or at the very least it might not be quite as important as people are making out to be.
3. Again, I don't interpret that scene being at the end as them revealing anything. I see it as a tease of what's to come. Because normies would have absolutely no idea who Zack is and why he's important, so that scene is meaningless to a newcomer other than to set up the next game. And yes, Square Enix does consider this the fifth installment in the Compilation and yes in many ways it can be seen as a sequel (unless we're told otherwise and these end up being straight retcons), but they know they're going to alienate a large part of their audience if they only cater to fans of the original. Even if every single fan of the original bought the game, I don't think that would be considered a success for them, so they need to consider people who know nothing about FFVII when crafting this series. Otherwise, they might've given SOME indication in the marketing this wasn't just a straight-up remake.
We also all have to keep in mind this is Nomura we're talking about. Even when the man is on his A game, I think it'd be charitable to call his plotting messy at times.
"For a few seconds Oskar saw through Eli's eyes. And what he saw was...himself. Only much better, more handsome, stronger than what he thought of himself. Seen with love."
--John Ajvide Lindqvist, Let the Right One In (Page 446).
3. I don't rule out your interpretation but I find this game pretty damn cavalier about people who aren't deep into the Compilation let alone newcomers. A ton of contextless flash forwards and references that are unexplained in this game. Like they don't even show the overgrown midgar that is the whole point of the little video of Red running through the canyon shown in the whispers fight. Nomura said he felt the slow, Jaws-inspired buildup to Sephiroth reveal to be pointless now because "everyone" already knows him, which is why he's constantly thrown in our face now. Even Evangelion Rebuild didn't bother with the blatant meta commentary/apology that the plot ghosts are for daring to make changes to canon. They seem a little high on their own supply and way out of touch with the newcomer, I doubt much of this game makes any sense to them. At least the player just has to hit things and doesn't have to solve the mystery like an Ace Attorney game.
Except that weird Planet of the Apes ‘you blew it up’ moment we got with Cait Sith when the plate fell. That was super weird and out of place and is NEVER mentioned and added absolutely nothing
Wouldn't that be awful?
As for timing, I think it's thematically fine. We're watching the end of the story we thought we were getting, and so they're showing us where that story began to change. And now when Zack shows up in the next game, we don't need an explanation because it was already handled by a brief scene in this game. So it takes care of a character introduction along with having a nice aspect of symmetry.
Further, it could be they just felt like cramming Zack in there because they want people to know he's alive in the setting, much like the random Cait Sith shot that linked to nothing. Aside from Aerith noticing something, it may be totally incidental and meaningless that the cutscene happens at the end other than to show Zack as alive.
Yes it would.
https://podcast.tidalwavegames.com/
I mean.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
(I loved Roche)
He might show up again, assuming we ever get up to later events - he would be very easy to slot into Junon or the return to Midgar. Maybe he'll pop up during the Huge Materia hunt.
Squall is much less annoying than I remember, I appreciate that despite his flaws it's very easy to curb his more jerkish side with good dialogue choices. Lionheart remains a game ender. I forgot to unlock Resurrection for Ultimecia and ended up soloing the last two phases with that gunblade alone.
Rinoa has a fun personality, but is pretty useless in combat with a terrible limit break.
Selphie is a perky serial killer and I forgot how many of her lines are just adorably vicious.
Irvine is a combat beast, and the twist on his character is pretty nice (pretends to be a ladies man but only to impress Selphie).
Zell's in the ok category but as a monk/martial artist he's pretty top tier in the series.
It's funny that Quistis is presented initially as the mature, competent one, but after the game's intro she makes some of the poorest choices of any of the group.
And of course, the flashback crew could have had their own game and I wouldn't have minded at all.
I'm keeping everyone alive with Prayer, but actually dealing damage is a pain in the ass.
Seven. Seven belts. Fucking why?
Steam: TheArcadeBear
For those that are wondering, Squall has a Lion motif, and the "mane" has shifted from his jacket to his hair. I think it's the perfect design for an early 20s Squall.
Angelo is a good boi.
Because Cloud cannot beat two Helitroopers by himself. I refuse to believe it. Both out of reach, whichever you run at, the other shoots you in the back, if you heal they swoop in and stab you for more than you heal.
Total fucking bullshit.