I am actually reading a biography about Grant and you'd be surprised at how much of the Civil War around the Mississippi was "and Lieutenant/Colonel/General/Major General X planned to attack Y but learned that Y was surrounded by five miles of dense partially underwater, disease ridden bog and there was no chance in hell they were gonna get men or horses or god forbid artillery pieces through it."
Also while I already knew this the staggering, almost mind-numbing incompetence displayed by the majority of generals in the war is still like, sometimes hard to imagine. Hindsight is 20/20 but man folks still just made the stupidest decision.
Even Grant, who is generally considered one of the best Union generals was mainly just good because he had years of experience as a quartermaster so he knew how to keep his armies and their supply lines moving relatively fast. Also quiet temperament and something who did not outwardly ever appear distressed (although from the tons of personal writings he left we know he was stressed basically all the time during battle, he hated battles.) meant he got along well with his men, subordinates, and superiors. Also something I am surprised doesn't come up more as Grant's actual worst thing he did as a general (the drinking thing was overblown, the only substantiated time where he had a drinking problem was when he was stationed in California a decade before the war.) which was General Order No. 11. A ridiculous blatantly prejudiced order that shocked even other generals and caused a shitshow for Lincoln,
"General Orders No. 11
_______
Head Quarters 13th Army Corps,
Department of the Tennessee,
Oxford, Miss. Dec. 17, 1862.
I.. The Jews, as a class, violating every regulation of trade
established by the Treasury Department, and also Department
orders, are hereby expelled from the Department.
II.. Within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order
by Post Commanders, they will see that all of this class of people
be furnished passes and required to leave, and any one re-
turning after such notification will be arrested and held in con-
finement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as pris-
oners, unless furnished with permit from Head Quarters.
III.. No permits will be given these people to visit Head
Quarters for the purpose of making personal application for
trade permits.
By Order of Maj. Genl. U.S. Grant
JNO. A. RAWLINS
Ass't Adj't Genl."
It caused such a political shitshow that a high officer in the army would be so openly anti-semitic that Grant had to very quickly repeal the order, and then had to spend the next six or so months playing the integration golden boy in using freemen and runaway slaves as adjutants in his army. (Several people in the War Department liked Grant, so they covertly told him to make a big show of following Lincoln's new directive for using african americans in the union army if he wanted to repair his reputation with the White House.)
Also fact that is interesting: Did you know that Ulysses Grant's father, Jesse Grant, both knew and was friends with John Brown? Yes, that John Brown. The older grant lived with the Brown family for a number of years on his long quest for financial independence.
Another random fact: Ulysses S. Grant was born Hiram Ulysses Grant. How did his name change? First, most folks called him Ulysses even though growing up he preferred Hiram, as people would often make fun of the fact that he had a high falutin' name. So when Grant's father tried to get him a recommendation to go into West Point he of course used the name that people would know his son as, Ulysses. Second, when Ulysses learned he was going to West Point his father got him a monogrammed traveling case. However, Ulysses realized that his monogram would be H.U.G and was terrified that every other kid at West Point would rib him mercilessly for that (and to be fair, they would have) so begged his father to switch the monogram to U.H.G. Now, where did the S come from? Simple, the Ohio congressman who got him the recommendation got his name wrong, as Ulysses Sampson Grant. And Grant just had to go with that name for his West Point career and by the time he got out of West Point he had just kind of gotten used to it. To be fair, it did lead to probably the coolest nickname for a general in the Civil War and a cooler nickname than Grant probably deserved: Unconditional Surrender Grant.
Wasn't a big chunk of ACW blunders simply down to the fact that it was the tail end of the "buy an officer commission" era? I think I recall Grant and some others being rare exceptions as officers who got to their posts on merit. Of course, politics was and remains a substantial component in any military post.
Wasn't a big chunk of ACW blunders simply down to the fact that it was the tail end of the "buy an officer commission" era? I think I recall Grant and some others being rare exceptions as officers who got to their posts on merit. Of course, politics was and remains a substantial component in any military post.
partially yeah
there also hadn't been any sort of war for over a decade, and the civil war was fought extremely differently than most previous wars
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JedocIn the scupperswith the staggers and jagsRegistered Userregular
You ever think about the people in Jack Chick tracts who go, "GOD, I just love sinning, it's so much fun"
I'm pretty sure John Waters says that, verbatim, at least twice a month.
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
edited May 2020
I think about the kid whose response to getting swindled out of his eternal heavenly reward and winding up in hell as his best friend peels off his own face to reveal that of Satan, the Enemy, is to shout SOMEBODY GOOFED
I think about that all the time
Shorty on
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JedocIn the scupperswith the staggers and jagsRegistered Userregular
Remember that one about the witch who recruits for her coven by running D&D night? But then she also kills that one girl's character, and insists it's her own fault? Pretty jerky DM-ing there!
More stupid Civil War battle stuff: reading about the battle of Chattanooga and one small part in particular, the Battle of Missionary Ridge. Basically, at one point the Army of Cumberland misunderstood an order from their commanding officer, General H. Thomas. Grant had ordered Thomas to use his army of a couple thousand men to push against a heavily fortified position on Missionary Hill having more defenders, artillery, and with elaborate earthen-work fortifications and an elevation advantage. Grant knew that such an attack would be futile, but he wanted to put pressure to distract confederates from Sherman's more equipped attack a few away on the same ridgeline. Well, somehow the order was misunderstood or miscommunication and the Army of Cumberland, interpreting the order as "take that hill", starting charging into the death trap. And they made it through the rifle pits. And the confederates broke and ran. And they made it over the multiple layers of ditches and mounds. And the confederates broke and ran. And they took the hillcrest, and the confederates broke and ran. Thomas and Grant had to desperately order them to stop advancing, and the Army of Cumberland purportedly lost more men in the falling back action to defensible positions on the ridge than they had ascending and taking the fortification. Needless to say, the confederate army defending the ridge was shattered and had to make a full retreat across a nearby creek when Sherman's army of the Tennessee, which was meant to be the army that actually took Missionary Ridge, mopped up the shattered center.
More stupid Civil War battle stuff: reading about the battle of Chattanooga and one small part in particular, the Battle of Missionary Ridge. Basically, at one point the Army of Cumberland misunderstood an order from their commanding officer, General H. Thomas. Grant had ordered Thomas to use his army of a couple thousand men to push against a heavily fortified position on Missionary Hill having more defenders, artillery, and with elaborate earthen-work fortifications and an elevation advantage. Grant knew that such an attack would be futile, but he wanted to put pressure to distract confederates from Sherman's more equipped attack a few away on the same ridgeline. Well, somehow the order was misunderstood or miscommunication and the Army of Cumberland, interpreting the order as "take that hill", starting charging into the death trap. And they made it through the rifle pits. And the confederates broke and ran. And they made it over the multiple layers of ditches and mounds. And the confederates broke and ran. And they took the hillcrest, and the confederates broke and ran. Thomas and Grant had to desperately order them to stop advancing, and the Army of Cumberland purportedly lost more men in the falling back action to defensible positions on the ridge than they had ascending and taking the fortification. Needless to say, the confederate army defending the ridge was shattered and had to make a full retreat across a nearby creek when Sherman's army of the Tennessee, which was meant to be the army that actually took Missionary Ridge, mopped up the shattered center.
If it's stupid and it works...
It's still stupid and you're lucky, per the Maxims.
Oh speaking of stupid purportedly Douglas MacArthur's father was the first man up on that ridge. So I guess that means he was either the stupidest or the fastest.
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JedocIn the scupperswith the staggers and jagsRegistered Userregular
Everything about Douggie Mac's later career suggests mostly the first, and also the luckiest sumbitch on either side of the war.
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MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
More stupid Civil War battle stuff: reading about the battle of Chattanooga and one small part in particular, the Battle of Missionary Ridge. Basically, at one point the Army of Cumberland misunderstood an order from their commanding officer, General H. Thomas. Grant had ordered Thomas to use his army of a couple thousand men to push against a heavily fortified position on Missionary Hill having more defenders, artillery, and with elaborate earthen-work fortifications and an elevation advantage. Grant knew that such an attack would be futile, but he wanted to put pressure to distract confederates from Sherman's more equipped attack a few away on the same ridgeline. Well, somehow the order was misunderstood or miscommunication and the Army of Cumberland, interpreting the order as "take that hill", starting charging into the death trap. And they made it through the rifle pits. And the confederates broke and ran. And they made it over the multiple layers of ditches and mounds. And the confederates broke and ran. And they took the hillcrest, and the confederates broke and ran. Thomas and Grant had to desperately order them to stop advancing, and the Army of Cumberland purportedly lost more men in the falling back action to defensible positions on the ridge than they had ascending and taking the fortification. Needless to say, the confederate army defending the ridge was shattered and had to make a full retreat across a nearby creek when Sherman's army of the Tennessee, which was meant to be the army that actually took Missionary Ridge, mopped up the shattered center.
If it's stupid and it works...
[nitpick alert] General George H. Thomas. [/nitpick alert]
Thomas is probably the most underrated of the Civil War generals. He was the Virginian who stuck with the Union, putting lie to the notion that all Virginians just loved their state too much to turn against it, so the Confederate apologists hated him. Also he died soon after the war, thus never having time to write memoirs as most of the others did eventually so other people ended up overshadowing him. I just feel the need to step in and defend him here and there.
As a prisoner of the horrid past I have sired nine children and named them all George or William, statistically enough of them should die before puberty that I'll end up with just one of each
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Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
Wayne Wayne Wayne Jr. III
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valhalla13013 Dark Shield Perceives the GodsRegistered Userregular
82% of all military catastrophes/triumphs are due to unforseen swamps and bogs
Maybe 72%.
It is a well known fact that 82% of all military screw-ups are because of officers.
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MayabirdPecking at the keyboardRegistered Userregular
I remember Mike Duncan (History of Rome/Revolutions podcasts) saying once he subscribed to something like the opposite of the Great Man theory of history, in that he believes history is more driven by idiots screwing up than anything else.
I go for the "loose kindling" theory of history. The kindling is the pressures of social, economic and environmental pressures that encourage certain movements and invite the risk of flashpoints. But human agency still exists and can still either clear the kindling away, accidentally cause a spark or throw a patrol bomb among it. Someone could have guided 18th Century France into structural reforms without it exploding into violence, but Louis XVI was not that person. Or look at how different empires evolved over the various turnovers of the Third Century. Different folk gets you different results.
Dear Lord Jesus preserve me from a life situation where I must shit into a communal toilet bench or hang my asshole out over a log and shit into a communal toilet trench
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DepressperadoI just wanted to see you laughingin the pizza rainRegistered Userregular
oh yeah I would not shit until I died from it, I think.
It would be my secret shame and crime, that I go out into the woods and dig a private hole to shit into
God you know people would talk on the communal shit bench like the demented perverts who try to gin up conversation in public bathrooms but it's a shitting bench and they're trying to make eye contact with you and talk about something while you both shit
Hobnail on
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Kane Red RobeMaster of MagicArcanusRegistered Userregular
Would you like to know the origin of the phrase "kill them all and let God sort them out"? It's about as depressing as you'd guess!
In the early 13th century Pope Innocent III declared a crusade against the Cathars in Languedoc the southern region of what is now France (digression, it's known as Languedoc because it was where people spoke Occitan rather than what became the dominant French language and said "oc" for yes, rather than the northern "oui"). The Cathars were a heretical sect of Christianity which had a fair number of interesting beliefs (and practiced gender equality) but the important bit for this story is that they denied secular authority such as that of the Pope in favor of a more personal relationship with God. You can imagine how that doesn't sit well with Rome.
Anyways after a few years of faffing about trying to get the local nobility or the King of France to do something about this growing heresy the Pope took action... and sent a legation of priests to debate the Cathar perfects (as Cathar religious leaders were called) in an attempt to convince the heretics to recant and rejoin the Church. That went nowhere so a few years later after a few more aborted attempts to get the local Count Raymond of Toulouse to stamp out the Cathars (the guy gets excommunicated at least twice during this) Innocent throws up his hands and calls a crusade against the Cathars (sometimes called the Albigensian crusade after the town of Albi which was basically Cathar HQ).
Naturally a crusade right on their doorstep attracted a bunch of French knights who were stoked to be able to get the whole package of sin forgiveness for crusading without having to travel much. Rome sends up one of the same guys who had such little luck with the peaceful conversion attempt earlier, one Arnaud Amalric, to get some catharsis by leading the crusade.
Pretty much the crusader's first stop was the fortified town of Beziers, which had a sizable Cathar population, but was majority Catholic. After a lucky break the crusader army is able to breach the walls and enters the town.
The monk Caesarius of Heisterbach writes (about 20 years after the fact) of the massacre of Beziers: When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot "Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics." The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius – Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. ii. 19) and so countless number in that town were slain.
Amalric himself in a letter to Innocent III wrote: Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as divine vengeance miraculously raged against it.
As an aside, if you've played the game Carcassonne, have you ever wondered why you are doing the work of repopulating an area of medieval France? Wonder no longer, Carcassonne surrenders to the crusaders in an attempt to avoid getting the Beziers treatment and Amalric allows the people to flee (albeit with no belongings other than their underwear) before burning the city to the ground.
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
Posts
And I did!
Thats me
1. Louis II, King of Hungary
Also while I already knew this the staggering, almost mind-numbing incompetence displayed by the majority of generals in the war is still like, sometimes hard to imagine. Hindsight is 20/20 but man folks still just made the stupidest decision.
Even Grant, who is generally considered one of the best Union generals was mainly just good because he had years of experience as a quartermaster so he knew how to keep his armies and their supply lines moving relatively fast. Also quiet temperament and something who did not outwardly ever appear distressed (although from the tons of personal writings he left we know he was stressed basically all the time during battle, he hated battles.) meant he got along well with his men, subordinates, and superiors. Also something I am surprised doesn't come up more as Grant's actual worst thing he did as a general (the drinking thing was overblown, the only substantiated time where he had a drinking problem was when he was stationed in California a decade before the war.) which was General Order No. 11. A ridiculous blatantly prejudiced order that shocked even other generals and caused a shitshow for Lincoln,
_______
Head Quarters 13th Army Corps,
Department of the Tennessee,
Oxford, Miss. Dec. 17, 1862.
I.. The Jews, as a class, violating every regulation of trade
established by the Treasury Department, and also Department
orders, are hereby expelled from the Department.
II.. Within twenty-four hours from the receipt of this order
by Post Commanders, they will see that all of this class of people
be furnished passes and required to leave, and any one re-
turning after such notification will be arrested and held in con-
finement until an opportunity occurs of sending them out as pris-
oners, unless furnished with permit from Head Quarters.
III.. No permits will be given these people to visit Head
Quarters for the purpose of making personal application for
trade permits.
By Order of Maj. Genl. U.S. Grant
JNO. A. RAWLINS
Ass't Adj't Genl."
Also fact that is interesting: Did you know that Ulysses Grant's father, Jesse Grant, both knew and was friends with John Brown? Yes, that John Brown. The older grant lived with the Brown family for a number of years on his long quest for financial independence.
Another random fact: Ulysses S. Grant was born Hiram Ulysses Grant. How did his name change? First, most folks called him Ulysses even though growing up he preferred Hiram, as people would often make fun of the fact that he had a high falutin' name. So when Grant's father tried to get him a recommendation to go into West Point he of course used the name that people would know his son as, Ulysses. Second, when Ulysses learned he was going to West Point his father got him a monogrammed traveling case. However, Ulysses realized that his monogram would be H.U.G and was terrified that every other kid at West Point would rib him mercilessly for that (and to be fair, they would have) so begged his father to switch the monogram to U.H.G. Now, where did the S come from? Simple, the Ohio congressman who got him the recommendation got his name wrong, as Ulysses Sampson Grant. And Grant just had to go with that name for his West Point career and by the time he got out of West Point he had just kind of gotten used to it. To be fair, it did lead to probably the coolest nickname for a general in the Civil War and a cooler nickname than Grant probably deserved: Unconditional Surrender Grant.
partially yeah
there also hadn't been any sort of war for over a decade, and the civil war was fought extremely differently than most previous wars
I'm pretty sure John Waters says that, verbatim, at least twice a month.
I think about that all the time
If it's stupid and it works...
It's still stupid and you're lucky, per the Maxims.
3DS: 0473-8507-2652
Switch: SW-5185-4991-5118
PSN: AbEntropy
[nitpick alert] General George H. Thomas. [/nitpick alert]
Thomas is probably the most underrated of the Civil War generals. He was the Virginian who stuck with the Union, putting lie to the notion that all Virginians just loved their state too much to turn against it, so the Confederate apologists hated him. Also he died soon after the war, thus never having time to write memoirs as most of the others did eventually so other people ended up overshadowing him. I just feel the need to step in and defend him here and there.
Shabadoo
Maybe 72%.
It is a well known fact that 82% of all military screw-ups are because of officers.
https://youtu.be/SOUdY2B4n3M
This will be here until I receive an apology or Weedlordvegeta get any consequences for being a bully
Dang I don't know why I am double posting so much these past few days
This will be here until I receive an apology or Weedlordvegeta get any consequences for being a bully
God you know people would talk on the communal shit bench like the demented perverts who try to gin up conversation in public bathrooms but it's a shitting bench and they're trying to make eye contact with you and talk about something while you both shit
In the early 13th century Pope Innocent III declared a crusade against the Cathars in Languedoc the southern region of what is now France (digression, it's known as Languedoc because it was where people spoke Occitan rather than what became the dominant French language and said "oc" for yes, rather than the northern "oui"). The Cathars were a heretical sect of Christianity which had a fair number of interesting beliefs (and practiced gender equality) but the important bit for this story is that they denied secular authority such as that of the Pope in favor of a more personal relationship with God. You can imagine how that doesn't sit well with Rome.
Anyways after a few years of faffing about trying to get the local nobility or the King of France to do something about this growing heresy the Pope took action... and sent a legation of priests to debate the Cathar perfects (as Cathar religious leaders were called) in an attempt to convince the heretics to recant and rejoin the Church. That went nowhere so a few years later after a few more aborted attempts to get the local Count Raymond of Toulouse to stamp out the Cathars (the guy gets excommunicated at least twice during this) Innocent throws up his hands and calls a crusade against the Cathars (sometimes called the Albigensian crusade after the town of Albi which was basically Cathar HQ).
Naturally a crusade right on their doorstep attracted a bunch of French knights who were stoked to be able to get the whole package of sin forgiveness for crusading without having to travel much. Rome sends up one of the same guys who had such little luck with the peaceful conversion attempt earlier, one Arnaud Amalric, to get some catharsis by leading the crusade.
Pretty much the crusader's first stop was the fortified town of Beziers, which had a sizable Cathar population, but was majority Catholic. After a lucky break the crusader army is able to breach the walls and enters the town.
The monk Caesarius of Heisterbach writes (about 20 years after the fact) of the massacre of Beziers:
When they discovered, from the admissions of some of them, that there were Catholics mingled with the heretics they said to the abbot "Sir, what shall we do, for we cannot distinguish between the faithful and the heretics." The abbot, like the others, was afraid that many, in fear of death, would pretend to be Catholics, and after their departure, would return to their heresy, and is said to have replied "Caedite eos. Novit enim Dominus qui sunt eius – Kill them all for the Lord knoweth them that are His" (2 Tim. ii. 19) and so countless number in that town were slain.
Amalric himself in a letter to Innocent III wrote:
Our men spared no one, irrespective of rank, sex or age, and put to the sword almost 20,000 people. After this great slaughter the whole city was despoiled and burnt, as divine vengeance miraculously raged against it.
As an aside, if you've played the game Carcassonne, have you ever wondered why you are doing the work of repopulating an area of medieval France? Wonder no longer, Carcassonne surrenders to the crusaders in an attempt to avoid getting the Beziers treatment and Amalric allows the people to flee (albeit with no belongings other than their underwear) before burning the city to the ground.
Wasn't that the Hapsburgs?