The cops don't care what anyone who isn't a cop thinks. The people of the CHOP are trying to prioritize the voices of BIPOC and asking white folks to, for once, take a sideline seat when matters concerning the area come up. This thread over the past few pages has been a great example of why that continues to be a struggle for so many.
I mean, shooting up a car and killing somebody isn't "matters concerning the area." That's a matter that concerns everybody. Or at the very least should. I know it's easy to dismiss people as "hiding behind the safety of their keyboards," but trust and believe that this is exactly the kind of shit that's gonna get this whole thing forcibly shut down, with overwhelming public support.
EDIT: Probably still not my support, to be clear. That's why I care.
Your posts over the last few pages prove how difficult the task of holding people accountable for their actions will be.
You're using the exact same excuses as cops. They were "on edge" and and that black kid was "potentially" going to do something. JFC you're using their racial status to justify not questioning it, same as when any cop defender uses a cop's skin color to justify them murdering kids.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
Have the shooters come forward yet? Do we even know how many there were?
It's hard to be sure, but it looked like there were three or four people in Omari's video talking about firing. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who was standing 'security' on the south barricade though.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
The cops don't care what anyone who isn't a cop thinks. The people of the CHOP are trying to prioritize the voices of BIPOC and asking white folks to, for once, take a sideline seat when matters concerning the area come up. This thread over the past few pages has been a great example of why that continues to be a struggle for so many.
I mean, shooting up a car and killing somebody isn't "matters concerning the area." That's a matter that concerns everybody. Or at the very least should. I know it's easy to dismiss people as "hiding behind the safety of their keyboards," but trust and believe that this is exactly the kind of shit that's gonna get this whole thing forcibly shut down, with overwhelming public support.
The cops have been aching to shut it down forcibly for a while. That they haven't speaks to the cunning of the higher ups who are betting that the whole thing will peter out once there isn't a hostile force to unify against. We can definitely see that with the shrinking of the zone's borders since the precinct was initially abandonned.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
@Incenjucar you live in the area right? How hard would it be to get to where the jeep stopped? Looked like maybe 40ft (distance is hard since its never clearly shown) north of the intersection of Pike and 12th?
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Boy, hearing that the guys with rifles who just shot a couple dudes who were "potentially" going to attack them after "allegedly" doing so the previous night are "on edge" sure doesn't make me feel better about this.
Not to say "ooh well police is better" but like, "guarding a place with a gun" is a trained skillset, and I will lay money these people are not to a significant extent. (And I mean, that's a good sign for society, not having everyone with armed security training, but...)
Take it up with the folks who guard the CHOP. I don't think they're going to care what a bunch of white people tsk tsk-ing from behind the safety of their computer monitors think about this whole thing.
Pls note, "you" in the following sentence is not "you-Hacksaw", it is "you-unspecified".
--
I don't give a fuck what color you are, when you start claiming the right to open fire in my fucking neighborhood I want to know your god damn bona fides, and "brown" ain't one. You trained? You practiced? You accountable? We'll talk. Otherwise, put that shit away.
Edit: Fuck, I don't want ANY unaccountable assholes letting off weaponry where I live. Badged, unbadged, don't fucking care: PUT THAT SHIT AWAY.
Edit x2: Jesus christ and someone please tell me these weren't actually rifles like I've been hearing. Do you have any idea how much shit 5.56 or .223 will just go right the fuck through? Like... Holy shit. I think I'm actually maybe more mad about that part, like, thanks for lighting up everything behind that car too, guys!
That whole area is pretty accessible except where the barriers are that day. I barely even notice the CHOP when picking up my weekly Katsu burger just half a block away.
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Boy, hearing that the guys with rifles who just shot a couple dudes who were "potentially" going to attack them after "allegedly" doing so the previous night are "on edge" sure doesn't make me feel better about this.
Not to say "ooh well police is better" but like, "guarding a place with a gun" is a trained skillset, and I will lay money these people are not to a significant extent. (And I mean, that's a good sign for society, not having everyone with armed security training, but...)
Take it up with the folks who guard the CHOP. I don't think they're going to care what a bunch of white people tsk tsk-ing from behind the safety of their computer monitors think about this whole thing.
Pls note, "you" in the following sentence is not "you-Hacksaw", it is "you-unspecified".
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I don't give a fuck what color you are, when you start claiming the right to open fire in my fucking neighborhood I want to know your god damn bona fides, and "brown" ain't one. You trained? You practiced? You accountable? We'll talk. Otherwise, put that shit away.
Edit: Fuck, I don't want ANY unaccountable assholes letting off weaponry where I live. Badged, unbadged, don't fucking care: PUT THAT SHIT AWAY.
It only takes one side to start a shooting. There are white supremacists prowling. Theyve already tried to kill people. The police arent there. They dont help. What woukd you have the community do?
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Boy, hearing that the guys with rifles who just shot a couple dudes who were "potentially" going to attack them after "allegedly" doing so the previous night are "on edge" sure doesn't make me feel better about this.
Not to say "ooh well police is better" but like, "guarding a place with a gun" is a trained skillset, and I will lay money these people are not to a significant extent. (And I mean, that's a good sign for society, not having everyone with armed security training, but...)
Take it up with the folks who guard the CHOP. I don't think they're going to care what a bunch of white people tsk tsk-ing from behind the safety of their computer monitors think about this whole thing.
Pls note, "you" in the following sentence is not "you-Hacksaw", it is "you-unspecified".
--
I don't give a fuck what color you are, when you start claiming the right to open fire in my fucking neighborhood I want to know your god damn bona fides, and "brown" ain't one. You trained? You practiced? You accountable? We'll talk. Otherwise, put that shit away.
Edit: Fuck, I don't want ANY unaccountable assholes letting off weaponry where I live. Badged, unbadged, don't fucking care: PUT THAT SHIT AWAY.
It only takes one side to start a shooting. There are white supremacists prowling. The police arent there. They dont help. What woukd you have the community do?
I don't think there's an answer to this question that satisfies everyone involved. We seem to have finally reached the crossroads of "this should continue to exist" and "this has become a fallen endeavor".
Not open fire on black people using the exact same excuses cops use, with the exact same lack of accountability cops have.
We havent heard any excuses from them. And cops lack accountability because a system is in place to protect them from facing any. Not so for these shooters here.
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
Is this a legitimate post or intending to mockingly quote defenders?
Legitimate. I've spent a lot of time in the CHOP. The people who are watching over it as both formal and informal security (as well as medics) are all extremely exhausted from the threats posed by bad faith agitators. I myself have run into Proud Boys, obvious narcs, and likely white supremacists of some flavor or another while inside the zone trying to talk to the people who are taking up resident protest there. The place has, unfortunately, become a magnet for all the same kind of assholes who like to cause right-wing trouble in our sister city to the south: Portland.
Yeah uh. At least here in this thread/publicly, we have no idea that the security didn't just fire wildly into a random car until it crashed/stopped. In what possible way is this "expert marksmanship" to put "[a black 16-year-old] in his place"? Or the black 14-year-old who didn't die?
Edit: Giving you the benefit of the doubt, here, do you know more about what happened than that? Like, concretely?
All I can tell you is what my sources told me: the two teenagers in question had allegedly fired into the zone previously during the night, and came back to potentially do so again. They were both delivered into medical custody immediately (the one who died did so in SFD custody).
I cannot express how extremely not okay "we shot them because they were potentially going to do something" is. "Self defense" doesn't apply if you assert that the person in question was "potentially" going to attack you.
You'd have to take that up with the people who do security for the CHOP. The vast majority of them are BIPOC. They are very rightfully on edge, right now.
Boy, hearing that the guys with rifles who just shot a couple dudes who were "potentially" going to attack them after "allegedly" doing so the previous night are "on edge" sure doesn't make me feel better about this.
Not to say "ooh well police is better" but like, "guarding a place with a gun" is a trained skillset, and I will lay money these people are not to a significant extent. (And I mean, that's a good sign for society, not having everyone with armed security training, but...)
Take it up with the folks who guard the CHOP. I don't think they're going to care what a bunch of white people tsk tsk-ing from behind the safety of their computer monitors think about this whole thing.
Pls note, "you" in the following sentence is not "you-Hacksaw", it is "you-unspecified".
--
I don't give a fuck what color you are, when you start claiming the right to open fire in my fucking neighborhood I want to know your god damn bona fides, and "brown" ain't one. You trained? You practiced? You accountable? We'll talk. Otherwise, put that shit away.
Edit: Fuck, I don't want ANY unaccountable assholes letting off weaponry where I live. Badged, unbadged, don't fucking care: PUT THAT SHIT AWAY.
It only takes one side to start a shooting. There are white supremacists prowling. The police arent there. They dont help. What woukd you have the community do?
I don't think there's an answer to this question that satisfies everyone involved. We seem to have finally reached the crossroads of "this should continue to exist" and "this has become a fallen endeavor".
AFAIK know one has said it shouldn't exist.
People have said CHOP security shouldn't act identically to cops, which I do not think is a big ask.
People have said CHOP security shouldn't act identically to cops, which I do not think is a big ask.
I honestly don't know how accountability is going to be achieved without implicitly or explicitly involving the cops, which would only serve to make things worse.
Not open fire on black people using the exact same excuses cops use, with the exact same lack of accountability cops have.
We havent heard any excuses from them. And cops lack accountability because a system is in place to protect them from facing any. Not so for these shooters here.
What would have them do?
True, these killers are acting like cops all on their own without the support of a wider system. How noble.
Name the people, provide actual justification for killing black kids who were "potentially" dangerous. Apply the standards we want cops to follow. If they can't do that then they shouldn't have guns in the first place.
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Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
The CHOP was never, realistically, going to last in any kind of long-term state, regardless of whether or not it should exist. Whether you call it "security" or "police", there's no reasonable, realistic way that chunk of major urban area can operate safely without law enforcement of some kind. And the underlying issue to all this is not police not doing their job ever, it's abusing and overstepping the limits of their authority.
There was zero chance that Washington state or the city government was ever going to give the CHOP the okay to exist. It was always going to end up with the police returning to the station, if only because the city/state governments would have zero interest in developing another body of law for law enforcement just for CHOP security to exist. Using the CHOP to make the cops look bad in pursuit of getting police reformed was always the more realistic reason for the CHOP to exist.
Further, I don't get how it's legal for cops to just... not be at their precinct. They are literally not performing the job they were sworn to do, there has to be some kind of penalty, right?
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Further, I don't get how it's legal for cops to just... not be at their precinct. They are literally not performing the job they were sworn to do, there has to be some kind of penalty, right?
Even if there were a penalty, who would enforce it on SPD? They've proven they're not even accountable to elected and appointed officials, anymore.
The CHOP was never, realistically, going to last in any kind of long-term state, regardless of whether or not it should exist. Whether you call it "security" or "police", there's no reasonable, realistic way that chunk of major urban area can operate safely without law enforcement of some kind. And the underlying issue to all this is not police not doing their job ever, it's abusing and overstepping the limits of their authority.
There was zero chance that Washington state or the city government was ever going to give the CHOP the okay to exist. It was always going to end up with the police returning to the station, if only because the city/state governments would have zero interest in developing another body of law for law enforcement just for CHOP security to exist. Using the CHOP to make the cops look bad in pursuit of getting police reformed was always the more realistic reason for the CHOP to exist.
Further, I don't get how it's legal for cops to just... not be at their precinct. They are literally not performing the job they were sworn to do, there has to be some kind of penalty, right?
There is a broad gulf between what the police are empowered to do and what they are required to do.
They can choose not to operate out of a precinct building if they determine that it benefits the safety of their officers, the community, or the efficiency of service. They probably still have some mandate to provide police services to the area served by that precinct, and to my knowledge they still are...outside the CHOP, the city is receiving police services, just at a reduced efficiency. And they probably don't have any real efficiency mandate, it's why the "blue flu" has been an effective tactic in other cities.
Or, in short, no the police probably have little, if any, legal obligation to do much of anything outside the narrow scope of the contract each officer works under.
Not open fire on black people using the exact same excuses cops use, with the exact same lack of accountability cops have.
We havent heard any excuses from them. And cops lack accountability because a system is in place to protect them from facing any. Not so for these shooters here.
What would have them do?
Quid said it better than I could.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
It's difficult to come up with a correct action because all the best answers are ruined by the cops being brutal murderers and the system being utterly corrupt.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
edited June 2020
So I found this clip, I guess the tweeter is probably a nazi, which is disappointing, but I can't find the clip elsewhere, but the video looks like it matches what Omarisal was filming last night. You can't see it super well, but you can kind of see the jeep coming around the corner pretty fast right after someone was shouting about a stolen jeep and shots fired. At the end it definitely sounded like someone was shooting a lot more than seems necessary.
Warning, this is a video with the audio of gunshot that resulted in someone dying:
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
Well, one, I don't feel like "you can't play with us anymore" is necessarily an appropriate level of accountability for use of lethal force.
Two, hell no I ain't expelling the guy with a rifle that just shot a dude. You do it. I'm staying way the fuck away from "the guy what just opened up with .223 in a crowded residential area" and keeping a large amount of earth and concrete between me and him. I haven't been shot yet, and I don't plan to start.
"Don't start none" you say? Far as I've heard described, that car didn't, and you know what? If the only thing to hold shooty dude with a rifle to account is "if the community still likes him", fuck it, I don't need that burrito. I don't want to play "wonder what he thinks will start a fight" when I know he's perfectly willing to start shooting if he feels like it.
Christ. At least cops might lose a paycheck or two.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
I really don't feel like "welp, guess they can just shoot people" is where we want to end up. Like, we already have that problem. I can at least pretend I won't get involved with that problem by staying real far away from the dudes in blue outfits.
This isn't even a rentacop. This is... I dunno, but it's a dude or dudes who shot a moving car, waited for it to crash, then shot it more, to the tune of 18+ rounds (I counted, but there may have been more before I started watching.) of rifle ammunition in a crowded residental/business district.
Honestly? That can fuck right off. I'd rather have the cops; they're at least paid to fucking pretend. And when they shoot up an immobile vehicle, we don't celebrate it.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
I dunno hack.
I've been trying to defend the concept of defunding the police to my various family who trot out arguments like "but without fully supporting the police, murderers will roam the streets!".
But I guess they're actually right? This is the actual plan?
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Based on what I can gather from my sources, it was a "fuck around and fight out situation". The people in question had previously fired into the CHOP last night while on foot, fled, then returned in a likely stolen vehicle and attempted to fire in once more. CHOP security used expert marksmanship to put them in their place.
To murder people you mean.
Are you also really trying to justify the actions of one bad actor by pointing at another bad actor? They are both evil and vile reactions.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Man, do you really want to go on record as coming down on the side of "unaccountable use of deadly force by private citizens against "targets" (watch the video) they deem threatening"?
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
I dunno hack.
I've been trying to defend the concept of defunding the police to my various family who trot out arguments like "but without fully supporting the police, murderers will roam the streets!".
But I guess they're actually right? This is the actual plan?
The event in question is more of evidence against gun ownership than anything else.
Police do not stop bullets, they just fire a lot of them.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
I dunno hack.
I've been trying to defend the concept of defunding the police to my various family who trot out arguments like "but without fully supporting the police, murderers will roam the streets!".
But I guess they're actually right? This is the actual plan?
There are a lot of very vocal demands that something better be done to protect the community but no one actually seems to have one. Disarmament will get more people killed since we know for a fact there are armed white supremacists in the area with eyes on CHOP. Some might say "well being the cops back" as if thats up to anyone but the cops themselves and seems to forget what the cops were up to right until they ran off.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
I dunno hack.
I've been trying to defend the concept of defunding the police to my various family who trot out arguments like "but without fully supporting the police, murderers will roam the streets!".
But I guess they're actually right? This is the actual plan?
The event in question is more of evidence against gun ownership than anything else.
Police do not stop bullets, they just fire a lot of them.
I agree with you there.
I mean there's a whole other level of sticky with gun control laws generally being applied in a racist way, but ideally I'd like no guns for cops, no guns for civilians.
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
I would rather not, and neither would the people in the CHOP.
Obviously; they'd be held accountable for gunfights.
They're not really being held accountable for shooting anyone in the past few years. The officers who killed Charleena Lyles are still collecting paychecks, for starters.
Posts
pleasepaypreacher.net
I mean, shooting up a car and killing somebody isn't "matters concerning the area." That's a matter that concerns everybody. Or at the very least should. I know it's easy to dismiss people as "hiding behind the safety of their keyboards," but trust and believe that this is exactly the kind of shit that's gonna get this whole thing forcibly shut down, with overwhelming public support.
EDIT: Probably still not my support, to be clear. That's why I care.
You're using the exact same excuses as cops. They were "on edge" and and that black kid was "potentially" going to do something. JFC you're using their racial status to justify not questioning it, same as when any cop defender uses a cop's skin color to justify them murdering kids.
It's hard to be sure, but it looked like there were three or four people in Omari's video talking about firing. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who was standing 'security' on the south barricade though.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
The cops have been aching to shut it down forcibly for a while. That they haven't speaks to the cunning of the higher ups who are betting that the whole thing will peter out once there isn't a hostile force to unify against. We can definitely see that with the shrinking of the zone's borders since the precinct was initially abandonned.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Pls note, "you" in the following sentence is not "you-Hacksaw", it is "you-unspecified".
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I don't give a fuck what color you are, when you start claiming the right to open fire in my fucking neighborhood I want to know your god damn bona fides, and "brown" ain't one. You trained? You practiced? You accountable? We'll talk. Otherwise, put that shit away.
Edit: Fuck, I don't want ANY unaccountable assholes letting off weaponry where I live. Badged, unbadged, don't fucking care: PUT THAT SHIT AWAY.
Edit x2: Jesus christ and someone please tell me these weren't actually rifles like I've been hearing. Do you have any idea how much shit 5.56 or .223 will just go right the fuck through? Like... Holy shit. I think I'm actually maybe more mad about that part, like, thanks for lighting up everything behind that car too, guys!
It only takes one side to start a shooting. There are white supremacists prowling. Theyve already tried to kill people. The police arent there. They dont help. What woukd you have the community do?
I don't think there's an answer to this question that satisfies everyone involved. We seem to have finally reached the crossroads of "this should continue to exist" and "this has become a fallen endeavor".
We havent heard any excuses from them. And cops lack accountability because a system is in place to protect them from facing any. Not so for these shooters here.
What would have them do?
AFAIK know one has said it shouldn't exist.
People have said CHOP security shouldn't act identically to cops, which I do not think is a big ask.
I honestly don't know how accountability is going to be achieved without implicitly or explicitly involving the cops, which would only serve to make things worse.
True, these killers are acting like cops all on their own without the support of a wider system. How noble.
Name the people, provide actual justification for killing black kids who were "potentially" dangerous. Apply the standards we want cops to follow. If they can't do that then they shouldn't have guns in the first place.
There was zero chance that Washington state or the city government was ever going to give the CHOP the okay to exist. It was always going to end up with the police returning to the station, if only because the city/state governments would have zero interest in developing another body of law for law enforcement just for CHOP security to exist. Using the CHOP to make the cops look bad in pursuit of getting police reformed was always the more realistic reason for the CHOP to exist.
Further, I don't get how it's legal for cops to just... not be at their precinct. They are literally not performing the job they were sworn to do, there has to be some kind of penalty, right?
Even if there were a penalty, who would enforce it on SPD? They've proven they're not even accountable to elected and appointed officials, anymore.
There is a broad gulf between what the police are empowered to do and what they are required to do.
They can choose not to operate out of a precinct building if they determine that it benefits the safety of their officers, the community, or the efficiency of service. They probably still have some mandate to provide police services to the area served by that precinct, and to my knowledge they still are...outside the CHOP, the city is receiving police services, just at a reduced efficiency. And they probably don't have any real efficiency mandate, it's why the "blue flu" has been an effective tactic in other cities.
Or, in short, no the police probably have little, if any, legal obligation to do much of anything outside the narrow scope of the contract each officer works under.
Quid said it better than I could.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
Warning, this is a video with the audio of gunshot that resulted in someone dying:
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"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
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Well, one, I don't feel like "you can't play with us anymore" is necessarily an appropriate level of accountability for use of lethal force.
Two, hell no I ain't expelling the guy with a rifle that just shot a dude. You do it. I'm staying way the fuck away from "the guy what just opened up with .223 in a crowded residential area" and keeping a large amount of earth and concrete between me and him. I haven't been shot yet, and I don't plan to start.
"Don't start none" you say? Far as I've heard described, that car didn't, and you know what? If the only thing to hold shooty dude with a rifle to account is "if the community still likes him", fuck it, I don't need that burrito. I don't want to play "wonder what he thinks will start a fight" when I know he's perfectly willing to start shooting if he feels like it.
Christ. At least cops might lose a paycheck or two.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
Charleena Lyles lost them exactly zero paychecks.
I'm glad the security for CHOP are setting such a high bar for themselves.
This isn't even a rentacop. This is... I dunno, but it's a dude or dudes who shot a moving car, waited for it to crash, then shot it more, to the tune of 18+ rounds (I counted, but there may have been more before I started watching.) of rifle ammunition in a crowded residental/business district.
Honestly? That can fuck right off. I'd rather have the cops; they're at least paid to fucking pretend. And when they shoot up an immobile vehicle, we don't celebrate it.
Me too!
I dunno hack.
I've been trying to defend the concept of defunding the police to my various family who trot out arguments like "but without fully supporting the police, murderers will roam the streets!".
But I guess they're actually right? This is the actual plan?
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
To murder people you mean.
Are you also really trying to justify the actions of one bad actor by pointing at another bad actor? They are both evil and vile reactions.
I would rather not, and neither would the people in the CHOP.
'Cause you are at the moment, and it isn't cool.
The event in question is more of evidence against gun ownership than anything else.
Police do not stop bullets, they just fire a lot of them.
Obviously; they'd be held accountable for gunfights.
There are a lot of very vocal demands that something better be done to protect the community but no one actually seems to have one. Disarmament will get more people killed since we know for a fact there are armed white supremacists in the area with eyes on CHOP. Some might say "well being the cops back" as if thats up to anyone but the cops themselves and seems to forget what the cops were up to right until they ran off.
You think the SPD would be held accountable for shooting a black teen in a car?
I agree with you there.
I mean there's a whole other level of sticky with gun control laws generally being applied in a racist way, but ideally I'd like no guns for cops, no guns for civilians.
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
They're not really being held accountable for shooting anyone in the past few years. The officers who killed Charleena Lyles are still collecting paychecks, for starters.