However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
Interestingly enough I was under the impression that people were protesting against the murder of minorities by an unaccountable mob.
I would rather not, and neither would the people in the CHOP.
Obviously; they'd be held accountable for gunfights.
You think the SPD would be held accountable for shooting a black teen in a car?
Yes, I do.
I also think they are super on-the-ball with releasing squad car/body camera footage in use-of-force incidents, just because they're overwhelmingly often on the right side of things, especially in the last few years. Their behavior during the protests was entirely atrocious, but in terms of accountability for deadly use-of-force? Yeah, I do trust the SPD more than CHOP security. That is much more a condemnation than me praising SPD across the board.
Now, if we're talking about the King County Sheriff's department, that might be a different story.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
Interestingly enough I was under the impression that people were protesting against the murder of minorities by an unaccountable mob.
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to I guess.
An unaccountable security force operating under the implicit banner of white supremacy and in full control of municipal necropolitics. There is a difference.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
Interestingly enough I was under the impression that people were protesting against the murder of minorities by an unaccountable mob.
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to I guess.
There's this weird thing where people keep conflating "state-funded, state-empowered group with military-grade weapons" and "people in the neighborhood" as being equivalent and it really really bugs me.
You two aren't seriously coming down on the side of "welp, nothing we can do, all hail our glorious armed unaccountable protectors" are you?
'Cause I live here, and I gotta tell you, I do not feel safer knowing that someone with that little trigger control (and/or that much bloodlust) is "protecting" me, without even the veneer or pretense of accountability that police have. Rifle bullets don't stop at cars!
The shooters here have the same accountability any of the rest of us have when we use lethal force in defense of us and ours. Which is to say they'll go away for years if they fuck it up, given the circumstances.
Any notion theyre somehow held the same or a lowwr accountability than cops is laughable.
Styrofoam Sammich on
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jmcdonaldI voted, did you?DC(ish)Registered Userregular
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
Interestingly enough I was under the impression that people were protesting against the murder of minorities by an unaccountable mob.
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to I guess.
There's this weird thing where people keep conflating "state-funded, state-empowered group with military-grade weapons" and "people in the neighborhood" as being equivalent and it really really bugs me.
That kids dead either way, and that really bugs me
+8
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
Interestingly enough I was under the impression that people were protesting against the murder of minorities by an unaccountable mob.
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to I guess.
There's this weird thing where people keep conflating "state-funded, state-empowered group with military-grade weapons" and "people in the neighborhood" as being equivalent and it really really bugs me.
That kids dead either way, and that really bugs me
Sure. But the two groups aren't the same.
Being able to recognize systemic problems is very important to this situation.
You two aren't seriously coming down on the side of "welp, nothing we can do, all hail our glorious armed unaccountable protectors" are you?
'Cause I live here, and I gotta tell you, I do not feel safer knowing that someone with that little trigger control (and/or that much bloodlust) is "protecting" me, without even the veneer or pretense of accountability that police have. Rifle bullets don't stop at cars!
My stance is that Im glad a community that is under lethal threat without police protection is taking measures to protect itself. As for the shooting in the specific, we'll see if it was righteous or not.
The thing is here, the police were not forced to leave the area, they just abandoned it.
If the police gave a rat's ass, and changed their behavior, they could be there and arrest people doing actually dangerous things.
But they instead throw stun grenades at old photographers.
Like I asked before, had there been anything from chop about how they'd like the police to interact with them? Could they actually be there and arrest people or would they be hounded out of the zone?
I mean, I think the cops definitely abandoned it, chop can't play both sides saying "all copts get out" and also "those only happened because the cops abandoned us".
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
+2
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
'Cause I live here, and I gotta tell you, I do not feel safer knowing that someone with that little trigger control (and/or that much bloodlust) is "protecting" me, without even the veneer or pretense of accountability that police have. Rifle bullets don't stop at cars!
I live here, as well. This is likely going to be an impasse for us.
The thing is here, the police were not forced to leave the area, they just abandoned it.
If the police gave a rat's ass, and changed their behavior, they could be there and arrest people doing actually dangerous things.
But they instead throw stun grenades at old photographers.
Like I asked before, had there been anything from chop about how they'd like the police to interact with them? Could they actually be there and arrest people or would they be hounded out of the zone?
I mean, I think the cops definitely abandoned it, chop can't play both sides saying "all copts get out" and also "those only happened because the cops abandoned us".
The cops have walked in and out of their abandoned precinct with nothing more than some jeering. They have chosen to do nothing because they werent allowed to do anything they wanted.
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jmcdonaldI voted, did you?DC(ish)Registered Userregular
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
Interestingly enough I was under the impression that people were protesting against the murder of minorities by an unaccountable mob.
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to I guess.
There's this weird thing where people keep conflating "state-funded, state-empowered group with military-grade weapons" and "people in the neighborhood" as being equivalent and it really really bugs me.
That kids dead either way, and that really bugs me
Sure. But the two groups aren't the same.
Being able to recognize systemic problems is very important to this situation.
I find little solace in the murder of a child that isn’t based on a systemic issue.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
I dunno hack.
I've been trying to defend the concept of defunding the police to my various family who trot out arguments like "but without fully supporting the police, murderers will roam the streets!".
But I guess they're actually right? This is the actual plan?
There are a lot of very vocal demands that something better be done to protect the community but no one actually seems to have one.
Name the people, provide actual justification for killing black kids who were "potentially" dangerous. Apply the standards we want cops to follow. If they can't do that then they shouldn't have guns in the first place.
I do not want deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops replaced with a different group of deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops.
This was murder, full stop. There’s a reasonable solution and it’s most definitely not to let murderers get away with murder.
The thing is here, the police were not forced to leave the area, they just abandoned it.
If the police gave a rat's ass, and changed their behavior, they could be there and arrest people doing actually dangerous things.
But they instead throw stun grenades at old photographers.
Like I asked before, had there been anything from chop about how they'd like the police to interact with them? Could they actually be there and arrest people or would they be hounded out of the zone?
I mean, I think the cops definitely abandoned it, chop can't play both sides saying "all copts get out" and also "those only happened because the cops abandoned us".
I've seen a ton of conversations happening during the big protests.
If cops just treated the protesters like they normally treat white supremacists things would be a lot less stressful.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
Interestingly enough I was under the impression that people were protesting against the murder of minorities by an unaccountable mob.
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to I guess.
There's this weird thing where people keep conflating "state-funded, state-empowered group with military-grade weapons" and "people in the neighborhood" as being equivalent and it really really bugs me.
I'm not okay with "people in the neighborhood" shooting a car until it crashes, then shooting the car more to kill someone, either.
I don't want anyone shooting cars and killing people. I don't care where you live. Please stop doing this where I live.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
I dunno hack.
I've been trying to defend the concept of defunding the police to my various family who trot out arguments like "but without fully supporting the police, murderers will roam the streets!".
But I guess they're actually right? This is the actual plan?
There are a lot of very vocal demands that something better be done to protect the community but no one actually seems to have one.
Name the people, provide actual justification for killing black kids who were "potentially" dangerous. Apply the standards we want cops to follow. If they can't do that then they shouldn't have guns in the first place.
I do not want deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops replaced with a different group of deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops.
This was murder, full stop. There’s a reasonable solution and it’s most definitely not to let murderers get away with murder.
Thats what you want to have done with the shooters. What Im asking is how the community should protect itself if armed citizens is so objectionable to the thread.
The shooters here have the same accountability any of the rest of us have when we use lethal force in defense of us and ours. Which is to say they'll go away for yesrs if they fuck it up, given the circumstances.
There are users here who are advocating that exile from CHOP is the reasonable way of handling this.
'Cause I live here, and I gotta tell you, I do not feel safer knowing that someone with that little trigger control (and/or that much bloodlust) is "protecting" me, without even the veneer or pretense of accountability that police have. Rifle bullets don't stop at cars!
I live here, as well. This is likely going to be an impasse for us.
That makes two in just about as many minutes.
Let's see how many more minutes it takes to get enough of Seattle at an impasse with the CHOP hardliners to put the city on the brink.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
Interestingly enough I was under the impression that people were protesting against the murder of minorities by an unaccountable mob.
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to I guess.
There's this weird thing where people keep conflating "state-funded, state-empowered group with military-grade weapons" and "people in the neighborhood" as being equivalent and it really really bugs me.
That kids dead either way, and that really bugs me
Sure. But the two groups aren't the same.
Being able to recognize systemic problems is very important to this situation.
I find little solace in the murder of a child that isn’t based on a systemic issue.
Do you even hear yourself right now?
You are using the same argument structure that conservatives use to excuse systemic violence against groups by authorities.
The thing is here, the police were not forced to leave the area, they just abandoned it.
If the police gave a rat's ass, and changed their behavior, they could be there and arrest people doing actually dangerous things.
But they instead throw stun grenades at old photographers.
Like I asked before, had there been anything from chop about how they'd like the police to interact with them? Could they actually be there and arrest people or would they be hounded out of the zone?
I mean, I think the cops definitely abandoned it, chop can't play both sides saying "all copts get out" and also "those only happened because the cops abandoned us".
The cops have walked in and out of their abandoned precinct with nothing more than some jeering. They have chosen to do nothing because they werent allowed to do anything they wanted.
The people inside the CHOP have listed their demands to SPD, the mayor, and the city's politicians at large vis a vis how they wish to be interacted with. The municipal response has basically been "lol whut, okay fuk u" outside of, like SDoT lining up portapoties. The city government as a whole has been as hostile as they can be towards this entire endeavor.
Honestly, I cant get over the idea that the cops would be held accountable here. Like, jesus, come on.
Are these shooters being held accountable? Have they identified themselves, provided their side? When I checked the times there had not been an update to say they have been.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
Interestingly enough I was under the impression that people were protesting against the murder of minorities by an unaccountable mob.
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to I guess.
There's this weird thing where people keep conflating "state-funded, state-empowered group with military-grade weapons" and "people in the neighborhood" as being equivalent and it really really bugs me.
That kids dead either way, and that really bugs me
Sure. But the two groups aren't the same.
Being able to recognize systemic problems is very important to this situation.
I find little solace in the murder of a child that isn’t based on a systemic issue.
Do you even hear yourself right now?
You are using the same argument structure that conservatives use to excuse systemic violence against groups by authorities.
I am not supporting the murder of children by the police.
Why are you supporting the murder of this child by vigilantes?
Honestly, I cant get over the idea that the cops would be held accountable here. Like, jesus, come on.
Well I'm convinced
I mean if you have gone through the last couple weeks of all this and still have faith that cops will be held accountable for shooting black kids Im not going to be able to persuade you otherwise man.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
Interestingly enough I was under the impression that people were protesting against the murder of minorities by an unaccountable mob.
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to I guess.
There's this weird thing where people keep conflating "state-funded, state-empowered group with military-grade weapons" and "people in the neighborhood" as being equivalent and it really really bugs me.
That kids dead either way, and that really bugs me
Sure. But the two groups aren't the same.
Being able to recognize systemic problems is very important to this situation.
I find little solace in the murder of a child that isn’t based on a systemic issue.
Do you even hear yourself right now?
You are using the same argument structure that conservatives use to excuse systemic violence against groups by authorities.
I am not supporting the murder of children by the police.
Why are you supporting the murder of this child by vigilantes?
Why are you eating babies?
ceres on
+3
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Honestly, I cant get over the idea that the cops would be held accountable here. Like, jesus, come on.
Well I'm convinced
I mean if you have gone through the last couple weeks of all this and still have faith that cops will be held accountable for shooting black kids Im not going to be able to persuade you otherwise man.
The question wasn't if cops universally would be held responsible. The question was whether SPD would be held responsible.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
I dunno hack.
I've been trying to defend the concept of defunding the police to my various family who trot out arguments like "but without fully supporting the police, murderers will roam the streets!".
But I guess they're actually right? This is the actual plan?
There are a lot of very vocal demands that something better be done to protect the community but no one actually seems to have one.
Name the people, provide actual justification for killing black kids who were "potentially" dangerous. Apply the standards we want cops to follow. If they can't do that then they shouldn't have guns in the first place.
I do not want deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops replaced with a different group of deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops.
This was murder, full stop. There’s a reasonable solution and it’s most definitely not to let murderers get away with murder.
Thats what you want to have done with the shooters. What Im asking is how the community should protect itself if armed citizens is so objectionable to the thread.
Ensure people acting as security are trained and held accountable for their actions. At a bare minimum know who’s providing security.
It really sucks that they’re a target for other armed assholes. But if their security is going to boil down to cops but without a paycheck then I have little sympathy.
It is worth noting that the last few pages have shown that CHOP has utterly lost whatever power it had in effecting change. The people on this board, in this thread, are way way more sympathetic to CHOP than the overwhelming majority of the people of Seattle.
Honestly I don't think CHOP itself did any good in effecting change after the police pulled back from the east prescient but that is debatable. Things might swing back in favor of the protests (which are different from CHOP itself) if the police openly resume the violence. But right now all they have to do is sit on their hands and the "people in the neighborhood" are going to get very anti-CHOP very quickly. If a protest of local people against CHOP gets started that would be all the cover the police would need to dismantle whoever is left there without riling up the public in favor of improving on the (very limited) reforms that were won during the violent protests prior to CHOP forming.
It's not fair. And it shows the remarkably short attention span of our culture. But that's what is going to happen.
Honestly, I cant get over the idea that the cops would be held accountable here. Like, jesus, come on.
Well I'm convinced
I mean if you have gone through the last couple weeks of all this and still have faith that cops will be held accountable for shooting black kids Im not going to be able to persuade you otherwise man.
The question wasn't if cops universally would be held responsible. The question was whether SPD would be held responsible.
And I think they would be.
Based on what?
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
Honestly, I cant get over the idea that the cops would be held accountable here. Like, jesus, come on.
See, the difference is we can, at least, pretend. There would at the very least be the motions. They are at least paid to pretend to care.
The other people in question, however, are not paid, and there will be no motions, and we know empirically that they will use rather a lot of rather speedy bullets (when compared to sidearms) when they feel they are threatened by their "targets", and they do so without a lot of evidenced concern for what or who is behind what they're shooting.
If I run the identical risk of being shot either way, I'll take the ones who are paid to pretend to care, thanks.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
I really don't feel like "welp, guess they can just shoot people" is where we want to end up. Like, we already have that problem. I can at least pretend I won't get involved with that problem by staying real far away from the dudes in blue outfits.
This isn't even a rentacop. This is... I dunno, but it's a dude or dudes who shot a moving car, waited for it to crash, then shot it more, to the tune of 18+ rounds (I counted, but there may have been more before I started watching.) of rifle ammunition in a crowded residental/business district.
Honestly? That can fuck right off. I'd rather have the cops; they're at least paid to fucking pretend. And when they shoot up an immobile vehicle, we don't celebrate it.
It's 20 rounds, if I counted it right.
Idk. I still really struggle with the idea that these groups need to be able to defend themselves, often from the police, and the fact that even if the first ~5 shots were justified, it was clearly excessive there at the end.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
It is worth noting that the last few pages have shown that CHOP has utterly lost whatever power it had in effecting change. The people on this board, in this thread, are way way more sympathetic to CHOP than the overwhelming majority of the people of Seattle.
Honestly I don't think CHOP itself did any good in effecting change after the police pulled back from the east prescient but that is debatable. Things might swing back in favor of the protests (which are different from CHOP itself) if the police openly resume the violence. But right now all they have to do is sit on their hands and the "people in the neighborhood" are going to get very anti-CHOP very quickly. If a protest of local people against CHOP gets started that would be all the cover the police would need to dismantle whoever is left there without riling up the public in favor of improving on the (very limited) reforms that were won during the violent protests prior to CHOP forming.
It's not fair. And it shows the remarkably short attention span of our culture. But that's what is going to happen.
It is quite literally why the police and the city have withdrawn from the area. The protests only got big because they flailed at the protesters to begin with, and when they realized flailing wasn't working they did the silent treatment, and allowed the natural consequences of large groups of people of a narrow demographic to concentrate in an area where people who would threaten them can easily locate them.
It is all insanely predictable, and endlessly frustrating.
Honestly, I cant get over the idea that the cops would be held accountable here. Like, jesus, come on.
Well I'm convinced
I mean if you have gone through the last couple weeks of all this and still have faith that cops will be held accountable for shooting black kids Im not going to be able to persuade you otherwise man.
The question wasn't if cops universally would be held responsible. The question was whether SPD would be held responsible.
And I think they would be.
Based on what?
Based on continual federal oversight (mostly under the Obama DOJ) actually doing a pretty good job at straightening out a department that was pretty fucked up a decade ago. It's one reason that SPD has been understaffed for a while - shitty cop wannabes don't cut it there and can't literally get away with murder.
There was a massive regression during the protests, so it's possible that I'm wrong.
Honestly, I cant get over the idea that the cops would be held accountable here. Like, jesus, come on.
See, the difference is we can, at least, pretend. There would at the very least be the motions. They are at least paid to pretend to care.
The other people in question, however, are not paid, and there will be no motions, and we know empirically that they will use rather a lot of rather speedy bullets (when compared to sidearms) when they feel they are threatened by their "targets", and they do so without a lot of evidenced concern for what or who is behind what they're shooting.
If I run the identical risk of being shot either way, I'll take the ones who are paid to pretend to care, thanks.
Posts
If the police gave a rat's ass, and changed their behavior, they could be there and arrest people doing actually dangerous things.
But they instead throw stun grenades at old photographers.
Interestingly enough I was under the impression that people were protesting against the murder of minorities by an unaccountable mob.
Po-tay-to, Po-tah-to I guess.
Yes, I do.
I also think they are super on-the-ball with releasing squad car/body camera footage in use-of-force incidents, just because they're overwhelmingly often on the right side of things, especially in the last few years. Their behavior during the protests was entirely atrocious, but in terms of accountability for deadly use-of-force? Yeah, I do trust the SPD more than CHOP security. That is much more a condemnation than me praising SPD across the board.
Now, if we're talking about the King County Sheriff's department, that might be a different story.
An unaccountable security force operating under the implicit banner of white supremacy and in full control of municipal necropolitics. There is a difference.
There's this weird thing where people keep conflating "state-funded, state-empowered group with military-grade weapons" and "people in the neighborhood" as being equivalent and it really really bugs me.
'Cause I live here, and I gotta tell you, I do not feel safer knowing that someone with that little trigger control (and/or that much bloodlust) is "protecting" me, without even the veneer or pretense of accountability that police have. Rifle bullets don't stop at cars!
Any notion theyre somehow held the same or a lowwr accountability than cops is laughable.
That kids dead either way, and that really bugs me
I do not, so we are at an impasse.
Sure. But the two groups aren't the same.
Being able to recognize systemic problems is very important to this situation.
My stance is that Im glad a community that is under lethal threat without police protection is taking measures to protect itself. As for the shooting in the specific, we'll see if it was righteous or not.
Like I asked before, had there been anything from chop about how they'd like the police to interact with them? Could they actually be there and arrest people or would they be hounded out of the zone?
I mean, I think the cops definitely abandoned it, chop can't play both sides saying "all copts get out" and also "those only happened because the cops abandoned us".
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
I live here, as well. This is likely going to be an impasse for us.
The cops have walked in and out of their abandoned precinct with nothing more than some jeering. They have chosen to do nothing because they werent allowed to do anything they wanted.
I find little solace in the murder of a child that isn’t based on a systemic issue.
Do you even hear yourself right now?
I do not want deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops replaced with a different group of deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops.
This was murder, full stop. There’s a reasonable solution and it’s most definitely not to let murderers get away with murder.
I've seen a ton of conversations happening during the big protests.
If cops just treated the protesters like they normally treat white supremacists things would be a lot less stressful.
I'm not okay with "people in the neighborhood" shooting a car until it crashes, then shooting the car more to kill someone, either.
I don't want anyone shooting cars and killing people. I don't care where you live. Please stop doing this where I live.
Thats what you want to have done with the shooters. What Im asking is how the community should protect itself if armed citizens is so objectionable to the thread.
There are users here who are advocating that exile from CHOP is the reasonable way of handling this.
That makes two in just about as many minutes.
Let's see how many more minutes it takes to get enough of Seattle at an impasse with the CHOP hardliners to put the city on the brink.
You are using the same argument structure that conservatives use to excuse systemic violence against groups by authorities.
Well I'm convinced
The people inside the CHOP have listed their demands to SPD, the mayor, and the city's politicians at large vis a vis how they wish to be interacted with. The municipal response has basically been "lol whut, okay fuk u" outside of, like SDoT lining up portapoties. The city government as a whole has been as hostile as they can be towards this entire endeavor.
Are these shooters being held accountable? Have they identified themselves, provided their side? When I checked the times there had not been an update to say they have been.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I am not supporting the murder of children by the police.
Why are you supporting the murder of this child by vigilantes?
I mean if you have gone through the last couple weeks of all this and still have faith that cops will be held accountable for shooting black kids Im not going to be able to persuade you otherwise man.
Why are you eating babies?
I would argue that the city has been on the brink for a while, and that this incident will likely push it further over the edge.
The question wasn't if cops universally would be held responsible. The question was whether SPD would be held responsible.
And I think they would be.
Ensure people acting as security are trained and held accountable for their actions. At a bare minimum know who’s providing security.
It really sucks that they’re a target for other armed assholes. But if their security is going to boil down to cops but without a paycheck then I have little sympathy.
Honestly I don't think CHOP itself did any good in effecting change after the police pulled back from the east prescient but that is debatable. Things might swing back in favor of the protests (which are different from CHOP itself) if the police openly resume the violence. But right now all they have to do is sit on their hands and the "people in the neighborhood" are going to get very anti-CHOP very quickly. If a protest of local people against CHOP gets started that would be all the cover the police would need to dismantle whoever is left there without riling up the public in favor of improving on the (very limited) reforms that were won during the violent protests prior to CHOP forming.
It's not fair. And it shows the remarkably short attention span of our culture. But that's what is going to happen.
Based on what?
Charleena Lyles is still dead, and the officers who killed her are still collecting paychecks. Demonstrably, SPD would not be held accountable.
See, the difference is we can, at least, pretend. There would at the very least be the motions. They are at least paid to pretend to care.
The other people in question, however, are not paid, and there will be no motions, and we know empirically that they will use rather a lot of rather speedy bullets (when compared to sidearms) when they feel they are threatened by their "targets", and they do so without a lot of evidenced concern for what or who is behind what they're shooting.
If I run the identical risk of being shot either way, I'll take the ones who are paid to pretend to care, thanks.
It's 20 rounds, if I counted it right.
Idk. I still really struggle with the idea that these groups need to be able to defend themselves, often from the police, and the fact that even if the first ~5 shots were justified, it was clearly excessive there at the end.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
It is quite literally why the police and the city have withdrawn from the area. The protests only got big because they flailed at the protesters to begin with, and when they realized flailing wasn't working they did the silent treatment, and allowed the natural consequences of large groups of people of a narrow demographic to concentrate in an area where people who would threaten them can easily locate them.
It is all insanely predictable, and endlessly frustrating.
Based on continual federal oversight (mostly under the Obama DOJ) actually doing a pretty good job at straightening out a department that was pretty fucked up a decade ago. It's one reason that SPD has been understaffed for a while - shitty cop wannabes don't cut it there and can't literally get away with murder.
There was a massive regression during the protests, so it's possible that I'm wrong.
This is actually worse!