Honestly, I cant get over the idea that the cops would be held accountable here. Like, jesus, come on.
Well I'm convinced
I mean if you have gone through the last couple weeks of all this and still have faith that cops will be held accountable for shooting black kids Im not going to be able to persuade you otherwise man.
The question wasn't if cops universally would be held responsible. The question was whether SPD would be held responsible.
And I think they would be.
Based on what?
Based on continual federal oversight (mostly under the Obama DOJ) actually doing a pretty good job at straightening out a department that was pretty fucked up a decade ago. It's one reason that SPD has been understaffed for a while - shitty cop wannabes don't cut it there and can't literally get away with murder.
There was a massive regression during the protests, so it's possible that I'm wrong.
I don't see how this applies to 2020.
The atrocities I've seen and the mayor's complicity with it during this give me no reason to believe there are consequences.
The question wasn't if cops universally would be held responsible. The question was whether SPD would be held responsible.
And I think they would be.
Charleena Lyles is still dead, and the officers who killed her are still collecting paychecks. Demonstrably, SPD would not be held accountable.
We failed Charleena Lyles a number of times before the police even showed up. It's a great example of why a tiered approach to policing would be a good replacement for the one-size-fits all approach we have now. Too many wellness check type calls turn into (defensive) shootings by police.
That is, I don't think we should have sent people with guns into that situation. That doesn't mean that the officers involved should have just taken a stabbing for the team.
I really don't feel like "welp, guess they can just shoot people" is where we want to end up. Like, we already have that problem. I can at least pretend I won't get involved with that problem by staying real far away from the dudes in blue outfits.
This isn't even a rentacop. This is... I dunno, but it's a dude or dudes who shot a moving car, waited for it to crash, then shot it more, to the tune of 18+ rounds (I counted, but there may have been more before I started watching.) of rifle ammunition in a crowded residental/business district.
Honestly? That can fuck right off. I'd rather have the cops; they're at least paid to fucking pretend. And when they shoot up an immobile vehicle, we don't celebrate it.
It's 20 rounds, if I counted it right.
Idk. I still really struggle with the idea that these groups need to be able to defend themselves, often from the police, and the fact that even if the first ~5 shots were justified, it was clearly excessive there at the end.
Once your target has stopped, if you shoot them more, you are no longer doing so in process of defending yourself. As a rule, I mean.
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
The question wasn't if cops universally would be held responsible. The question was whether SPD would be held responsible.
And I think they would be.
Charleena Lyles is still dead, and the officers who killed her are still collecting paychecks. Demonstrably, SPD would not be held accountable.
We failed Charleena Lyles a number of times before the police even showed up. It's a great example of why a tiered approach to policing would be a good replacement for the one-size-fits all approach we have now. Too many wellness check type calls turn into (defensive) shootings by police.
That is, I don't think we should have sent people with guns into that situation. That doesn't mean that the officers involved should have just taken a stabbing for the team.
The tiered approach to policing, as you call it, is literally part of the plan to abolish the police and replace it with different systems of community/safety response for incidents like that.
As for the cops in question, literally leaving her apartment was an option. They didn't have to kill her in there. They chose to kill her in there. Saying that society failed her multiple times before the cops showed up is both true and an extreme cop out regarding their culpability in the matter.
It is worth noting that the last few pages have shown that CHOP has utterly lost whatever power it had in effecting change. The people on this board, in this thread, are way way more sympathetic to CHOP than the overwhelming majority of the people of Seattle.
Honestly I don't think CHOP itself did any good in effecting change after the police pulled back from the east prescient but that is debatable. Things might swing back in favor of the protests (which are different from CHOP itself) if the police openly resume the violence. But right now all they have to do is sit on their hands and the "people in the neighborhood" are going to get very anti-CHOP very quickly. If a protest of local people against CHOP gets started that would be all the cover the police would need to dismantle whoever is left there without riling up the public in favor of improving on the (very limited) reforms that were won during the violent protests prior to CHOP forming.
It's not fair. And it shows the remarkably short attention span of our culture. But that's what is going to happen.
I think an empircal evaluation of CHOP's effectiveness is useful, bur I think the error was made well before CHOP was a thing. I think I said as much here but containing the protests so heavily to Capitol Hill was a mistake. They should have spent more time being a pain in the ass in parts of the city that dont view Durkan as scum.
That said while efforts are stalling in Seattle, they're stalling in a lot of places, with notable exceptions. So maybe CHOP was a mistake but Im not sure how much in weighs against the overwhelming weight of the challenge to begin with. Sort of like saying I lost to Usain Bolt because I wore dress shoes.
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
I really don't feel like "welp, guess they can just shoot people" is where we want to end up. Like, we already have that problem. I can at least pretend I won't get involved with that problem by staying real far away from the dudes in blue outfits.
This isn't even a rentacop. This is... I dunno, but it's a dude or dudes who shot a moving car, waited for it to crash, then shot it more, to the tune of 18+ rounds (I counted, but there may have been more before I started watching.) of rifle ammunition in a crowded residental/business district.
Honestly? That can fuck right off. I'd rather have the cops; they're at least paid to fucking pretend. And when they shoot up an immobile vehicle, we don't celebrate it.
It's 20 rounds, if I counted it right.
Idk. I still really struggle with the idea that these groups need to be able to defend themselves, often from the police, and the fact that even if the first ~5 shots were justified, it was clearly excessive there at the end.
Once your target has stopped, if you shoot them more, you are no longer doing so in process of defending yourself. As a rule, I mean.
I mean, I agree, that's literally what I typed? Although I'm pretty sure the car was still moving on and off for the first ~10, although how much of that was intent to drive, and how much someone dieing, I wouldn't know.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
The question wasn't if cops universally would be held responsible. The question was whether SPD would be held responsible.
And I think they would be.
Charleena Lyles is still dead, and the officers who killed her are still collecting paychecks. Demonstrably, SPD would not be held accountable.
We failed Charleena Lyles a number of times before the police even showed up. It's a great example of why a tiered approach to policing would be a good replacement for the one-size-fits all approach we have now. Too many wellness check type calls turn into (defensive) shootings by police.
That is, I don't think we should have sent people with guns into that situation. That doesn't mean that the officers involved should have just taken a stabbing for the team.
I don't want this to be taken as me supporting the injury of cops, but their job is to put themselves in harm's way for the safety of the rest of society. The idea that they need to be armed so they can put down potential threats makes it clear that people are less interested in them being a shield than they are in them being a weapon.
"I will write your name in the ruin of them. I will paint you across history in the color of their blood."
The question wasn't if cops universally would be held responsible. The question was whether SPD would be held responsible.
And I think they would be.
Charleena Lyles is still dead, and the officers who killed her are still collecting paychecks. Demonstrably, SPD would not be held accountable.
We failed Charleena Lyles a number of times before the police even showed up. It's a great example of why a tiered approach to policing would be a good replacement for the one-size-fits all approach we have now. Too many wellness check type calls turn into (defensive) shootings by police.
That is, I don't think we should have sent people with guns into that situation. That doesn't mean that the officers involved should have just taken a stabbing for the team.
The tiered approach to policing, as you call it, is literally part of the plan to abolish the police and replace it with different systems of community/safety response for incidents like that.
As for the cops in question, literally leaving her apartment was an option. They didn't have to kill her in there. They chose to kill her in there. Saying that society failed her multiple times before the cops showed up is both true and an extreme cop out regarding their culpability in the matter.
I'm aware of that, thanks. You've mistaken me thinking that this is totally irresponsible for me thinking that all the objectives are wrong, or being uneducated about them.
Honestly, I cant get over the idea that the cops would be held accountable here. Like, jesus, come on.
See, the difference is we can, at least, pretend. There would at the very least be the motions. They are at least paid to pretend to care.
The other people in question, however, are not paid, and there will be no motions, and we know empirically that they will use rather a lot of rather speedy bullets (when compared to sidearms) when they feel they are threatened by their "targets", and they do so without a lot of evidenced concern for what or who is behind what they're shooting.
If I run the identical risk of being shot either way, I'll take the ones who are paid to pretend to care, thanks.
This is actually worse!
Not for me. You're asking me to choose between arbitrary violence theoretically (and occasionally) constrained within a system of accountability and with at least the semblance of organized rational behavior behind it, and absolutely arbitrary violence by private citizens, with no system of accountability (remember, not involving the police here) and no guarantee of organized or rational behavior at any given time.
These are both shitty choices. I'm still going to pick the one least likely to get me killed. Seriously, anyone would pick the organized gang over the random bunch of shmucks with guns.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
I dunno hack.
I've been trying to defend the concept of defunding the police to my various family who trot out arguments like "but without fully supporting the police, murderers will roam the streets!".
But I guess they're actually right? This is the actual plan?
There are a lot of very vocal demands that something better be done to protect the community but no one actually seems to have one.
Name the people, provide actual justification for killing black kids who were "potentially" dangerous. Apply the standards we want cops to follow. If they can't do that then they shouldn't have guns in the first place.
I do not want deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops replaced with a different group of deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops.
This was murder, full stop. There’s a reasonable solution and it’s most definitely not to let murderers get away with murder.
Thats what you want to have done with the shooters. What Im asking is how the community should protect itself if armed citizens is so objectionable to the thread.
Ensure people acting as security are trained and held accountable for their actions. At a bare minimum know who’s providing security.
It really sucks that they’re a target for other armed assholes. But if their security is going to boil down to cops but without a paycheck then I have little sympathy.
Do you know for a fact that they're not? Like, yes, there's no word coming out that they're being held accountable...but that's not the same as "They're not being held accountable for their actions." 'Cuz I sure can't say one way or another because we don't have the information! At this point, we've had 2+ pages of roundabout speculation of what happened less than 20 hours ago. About the only three things that aren't speculation that I've seen or read are: 1) there was a shooting at the abandoned East Precinct, 2) a second shooting happened around an hour later involving a vehicle that looked similar to the one used in the first shooting, and 3) the driver of the vehicle in point 2, a 16-year old kid, is dead.
Like, maybe before we eviscerate each other in here, how about we get actual, verifiable facts going first?
(then again, I've mostly been reading this thread and have only done cursory glances at non-SPD fed news briefs to see if anything's changed recently...so I might've missed a new development)
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
I dunno hack.
I've been trying to defend the concept of defunding the police to my various family who trot out arguments like "but without fully supporting the police, murderers will roam the streets!".
But I guess they're actually right? This is the actual plan?
There are a lot of very vocal demands that something better be done to protect the community but no one actually seems to have one.
Name the people, provide actual justification for killing black kids who were "potentially" dangerous. Apply the standards we want cops to follow. If they can't do that then they shouldn't have guns in the first place.
I do not want deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops replaced with a different group of deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops.
This was murder, full stop. There’s a reasonable solution and it’s most definitely not to let murderers get away with murder.
Thats what you want to have done with the shooters. What Im asking is how the community should protect itself if armed citizens is so objectionable to the thread.
Ensure people acting as security are trained and held accountable for their actions. At a bare minimum know who’s providing security.
It really sucks that they’re a target for other armed assholes. But if their security is going to boil down to cops but without a paycheck then I have little sympathy.
Do you know for a fact that they're not? Like, yes, there's no word coming out that they're being held accountable...but that's not the same as "They're not being held accountable for their actions." 'Cuz I sure can't say one way or another because we don't have the information! At this point, we've had 2+ pages of roundabout speculation of what happened less than 20 hours ago. About the only three things that aren't speculation that I've seen or read are: 1) there was a shooting at the abandoned East Precinct, 2) a second shooting happened around an hour later involving a vehicle that looked similar to the one used in the first shooting, and 3) the driver of the vehicle in point 2, a 16-year old kid, is dead.
Like, maybe before we eviscerate each other in here, how about we get actual, verifiable facts going first?
(then again, I've mostly been reading this thread and have only done cursory glances at non-SPD fed news briefs to see if anything's changed recently...so I might've missed a new development)
Much like with other cops, I’ll believe it when I see it.
Until then posters justifying killing “potentially dangerous” black teenagers as professional marksmanship is going to continue to rub me the wrong way.
It is worth noting that the last few pages have shown that CHOP has utterly lost whatever power it had in effecting change. The people on this board, in this thread, are way way more sympathetic to CHOP than the overwhelming majority of the people of Seattle.
Honestly I don't think CHOP itself did any good in effecting change after the police pulled back from the east prescient but that is debatable. Things might swing back in favor of the protests (which are different from CHOP itself) if the police openly resume the violence. But right now all they have to do is sit on their hands and the "people in the neighborhood" are going to get very anti-CHOP very quickly. If a protest of local people against CHOP gets started that would be all the cover the police would need to dismantle whoever is left there without riling up the public in favor of improving on the (very limited) reforms that were won during the violent protests prior to CHOP forming.
It's not fair. And it shows the remarkably short attention span of our culture. But that's what is going to happen.
I think an empircal evaluation of CHOP's effectiveness is useful, bur I think the error was made well before CHOP was a thing. I think I said as much here but containing the protests so heavily to Capitol Hill was a mistake. They should have spent more time being a pain in the ass in parts of the city that dont view Durkan as scum.
That said while efforts are stalling in Seattle, they're stalling in a lot of places, with notable exceptions. So maybe CHOP was a mistake but Im not sure how much in weighs against the overwhelming weight of the challenge to begin with. Sort of like saying I lost to Usain Bolt because I wore dress shoes.
I think a protest zone is a completely viable tactic, and initially one with good effect. However, that needs to be followed up with something coherent, and some form of actual structure, because while anarchy (proper kind) can indeed work, it has no means of dealing with something like "okay, organise accountable security forces". You have "people who showed up with guns". From someplace. What's their ROE? Force restrictions? Process for dealing with weapons use? That demands some form of central structure in some degree, which just wasn't there, if you want to have "security".
I think things would look a little different if attention had been paid to "how can we ensure emergency vehicles can traverse?", "how do we not disrupt the businesses/delivery traffic/etc", "these residents have been getting gassed along with us, we need to keep them in the dialogue" and such. In addition, yes, security. If you want to exercise your right to defend yourself, I just want you to take the responsibility as a community (small one mind) of ensuring you are wholly accountable to those around you for your actions in your defense. For a weapon that'll cheerfully punch through the average residential wall, I expect that accountability to extend to those living around you as well, not just the protestor next to you.
--
@Brody I was agreeing with you btw! Just expanding on it a bit.
However, isn't the system to hold these people accountable the very system they are currently acting in protest against?
The community involved can always expel the shooters in question. There are literally zero reasons to get SPD involved in this.
"Exile" doesn't really work here. You don't just shunt murderers to be someone else's problem and assume that's a long-term, sustainable practice.
Again, I'm not sure what course of action for accountability people are expecting to pursue with "effective" results that doesn't explicitly or implicitly involve SPD. Literally the very same institution so many of us have been protesting against.
I dunno hack.
I've been trying to defend the concept of defunding the police to my various family who trot out arguments like "but without fully supporting the police, murderers will roam the streets!".
But I guess they're actually right? This is the actual plan?
There are a lot of very vocal demands that something better be done to protect the community but no one actually seems to have one.
Name the people, provide actual justification for killing black kids who were "potentially" dangerous. Apply the standards we want cops to follow. If they can't do that then they shouldn't have guns in the first place.
I do not want deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops replaced with a different group of deadly, poorly trained, unaccountable cops.
This was murder, full stop. There’s a reasonable solution and it’s most definitely not to let murderers get away with murder.
Thats what you want to have done with the shooters. What Im asking is how the community should protect itself if armed citizens is so objectionable to the thread.
Ensure people acting as security are trained and held accountable for their actions. At a bare minimum know who’s providing security.
It really sucks that they’re a target for other armed assholes. But if their security is going to boil down to cops but without a paycheck then I have little sympathy.
Do you know for a fact that they're not? Like, yes, there's no word coming out that they're being held accountable...but that's not the same as "They're not being held accountable for their actions." 'Cuz I sure can't say one way or another because we don't have the information! At this point, we've had 2+ pages of roundabout speculation of what happened less than 20 hours ago. About the only three things that aren't speculation that I've seen or read are: 1) there was a shooting at the abandoned East Precinct, 2) a second shooting happened around an hour later involving a vehicle that looked similar to the one used in the first shooting, and 3) the driver of the vehicle in point 2, a 16-year old kid, is dead.
Like, maybe before we eviscerate each other in here, how about we get actual, verifiable facts going first?
(then again, I've mostly been reading this thread and have only done cursory glances at non-SPD fed news briefs to see if anything's changed recently...so I might've missed a new development)
Much like with other cops, I’ll believe it when I see it.
Until then posters justifying killing “potentially dangerous” black teenagers as professional marksmanship is going to continue to rub me the wrong way.
That's almost literally what I just said?
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
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BrodyThe WatchThe First ShoreRegistered Userregular
It is worth noting that the last few pages have shown that CHOP has utterly lost whatever power it had in effecting change. The people on this board, in this thread, are way way more sympathetic to CHOP than the overwhelming majority of the people of Seattle.
Honestly I don't think CHOP itself did any good in effecting change after the police pulled back from the east prescient but that is debatable. Things might swing back in favor of the protests (which are different from CHOP itself) if the police openly resume the violence. But right now all they have to do is sit on their hands and the "people in the neighborhood" are going to get very anti-CHOP very quickly. If a protest of local people against CHOP gets started that would be all the cover the police would need to dismantle whoever is left there without riling up the public in favor of improving on the (very limited) reforms that were won during the violent protests prior to CHOP forming.
It's not fair. And it shows the remarkably short attention span of our culture. But that's what is going to happen.
I think an empircal evaluation of CHOP's effectiveness is useful, bur I think the error was made well before CHOP was a thing. I think I said as much here but containing the protests so heavily to Capitol Hill was a mistake. They should have spent more time being a pain in the ass in parts of the city that dont view Durkan as scum.
That said while efforts are stalling in Seattle, they're stalling in a lot of places, with notable exceptions. So maybe CHOP was a mistake but Im not sure how much in weighs against the overwhelming weight of the challenge to begin with. Sort of like saying I lost to Usain Bolt because I wore dress shoes.
Some reforms have been gained. A tiny drop in the bucket compared to what was demanded but some. But those were gained based on the momentum of the protests when the police were openly attacking protestors, using chemical weapons etc... Once they pulled back, which allowed chaz / chop to form, was the turning point. In a way the fact that police in Seattle proved to be more disciplined than in most of the US will be the cause of the small amount of reform won from the protests.
I am sure the cops on the street hated it but their leadership was able to force them to disengage and de-escalate and have managed to sit on them since. While Best has been waging a very effective pro-SDP campaign in the media (I don't like what she's saying but you can't deny she is good at PR). The fact Best and Durkan did so out of 100% selfish and cynical motives doesn't matter. They had the bare minimum of self awareness to realize the course they wanted to take (putting down protests by force) was the very thing fueling the protests and effective change against themselves. That is a super low bar but is still way ahead of most of the police in this country.
It is worth noting that the last few pages have shown that CHOP has utterly lost whatever power it had in effecting change. The people on this board, in this thread, are way way more sympathetic to CHOP than the overwhelming majority of the people of Seattle.
Honestly I don't think CHOP itself did any good in effecting change after the police pulled back from the east prescient but that is debatable. Things might swing back in favor of the protests (which are different from CHOP itself) if the police openly resume the violence. But right now all they have to do is sit on their hands and the "people in the neighborhood" are going to get very anti-CHOP very quickly. If a protest of local people against CHOP gets started that would be all the cover the police would need to dismantle whoever is left there without riling up the public in favor of improving on the (very limited) reforms that were won during the violent protests prior to CHOP forming.
It's not fair. And it shows the remarkably short attention span of our culture. But that's what is going to happen.
I think an empircal evaluation of CHOP's effectiveness is useful, bur I think the error was made well before CHOP was a thing. I think I said as much here but containing the protests so heavily to Capitol Hill was a mistake. They should have spent more time being a pain in the ass in parts of the city that dont view Durkan as scum.
That said while efforts are stalling in Seattle, they're stalling in a lot of places, with notable exceptions. So maybe CHOP was a mistake but Im not sure how much in weighs against the overwhelming weight of the challenge to begin with. Sort of like saying I lost to Usain Bolt because I wore dress shoes.
Some reforms have been gained. A tiny drop in the bucket compared to what was demanded but some. But those were gained based on the momentum of the protests when the police were openly attacking protestors, using chemical weapons etc... Once they pulled back, which allowed chaz / chop to form, was the turning point. In a way the fact that police in Seattle proved to be more disciplined than in most of the US will be the cause of the small amount of reform won from the protests.
I am sure the cops on the street hated it but their leadership was able to force them to disengage and de-escalate and have managed to sit on them since. While Best has been waging a very effective pro-SDP campaign in the media (I don't like what she's saying but you can't deny she is good at PR). The fact Best and Durkan did so out of 100% selfish and cynical motives doesn't matter. They had the bare minimum of self awareness to realize the course they wanted to take (putting down protests by force) was the very thing fueling the protests and effective change against themselves. That is a super low bar but is still way ahead of most of the police in this country.
Yeah. Can't deny their effectiveness of doing the Lawful Evil thing, though a huge part of that is overwhelming media complacency. When I have conversations with people who watch news all the time, but haven't been watching the live feeds, they are amazed at just the things which I've seen live, and I have very much been a coward about being close to the action.
In local western washington is slowly becoming an apocalypse setting. I'm seeing a shit ton of bunnies in my town. So many bunnies, and then this morning swear to god family of raccoons ran across the street in my suburban neighborhood when I'd never seen raccoons before.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
It is worth noting that the last few pages have shown that CHOP has utterly lost whatever power it had in effecting change. The people on this board, in this thread, are way way more sympathetic to CHOP than the overwhelming majority of the people of Seattle.
Honestly I don't think CHOP itself did any good in effecting change after the police pulled back from the east prescient but that is debatable. Things might swing back in favor of the protests (which are different from CHOP itself) if the police openly resume the violence. But right now all they have to do is sit on their hands and the "people in the neighborhood" are going to get very anti-CHOP very quickly. If a protest of local people against CHOP gets started that would be all the cover the police would need to dismantle whoever is left there without riling up the public in favor of improving on the (very limited) reforms that were won during the violent protests prior to CHOP forming.
It's not fair. And it shows the remarkably short attention span of our culture. But that's what is going to happen.
I think an empircal evaluation of CHOP's effectiveness is useful, bur I think the error was made well before CHOP was a thing. I think I said as much here but containing the protests so heavily to Capitol Hill was a mistake. They should have spent more time being a pain in the ass in parts of the city that dont view Durkan as scum.
That said while efforts are stalling in Seattle, they're stalling in a lot of places, with notable exceptions. So maybe CHOP was a mistake but Im not sure how much in weighs against the overwhelming weight of the challenge to begin with. Sort of like saying I lost to Usain Bolt because I wore dress shoes.
Some reforms have been gained. A tiny drop in the bucket compared to what was demanded but some. But those were gained based on the momentum of the protests when the police were openly attacking protestors, using chemical weapons etc... Once they pulled back, which allowed chaz / chop to form, was the turning point. In a way the fact that police in Seattle proved to be more disciplined than in most of the US will be the cause of the small amount of reform won from the protests.
I am sure the cops on the street hated it but their leadership was able to force them to disengage and de-escalate and have managed to sit on them since. While Best has been waging a very effective pro-SDP campaign in the media (I don't like what she's saying but you can't deny she is good at PR). The fact Best and Durkan did so out of 100% selfish and cynical motives doesn't matter. They had the bare minimum of self awareness to realize the course they wanted to take (putting down protests by force) was the very thing fueling the protests and effective change against themselves. That is a super low bar but is still way ahead of most of the police in this country.
I think getting the cops to back off probably helped the city to stave off deeper changes for now, but I'm not sure that's the whole story. Richmond is, last I heard, still a war zone and they're not seeming to get anywhere with it. I think maybe one of the bigger hurdles in Seattle has been the weight of useless white liberalism. A lot of the cities seeing sweeping reform are more heavily minority so there's less of a liberal "Oh I support the thing but this is different" base for the power structure to hold out on the back of. No lack of iron fences with diversity signs behind them here.
In local western washington is slowly becoming an apocalypse setting. I'm seeing a shit ton of bunnies in my town. So many bunnies, and then this morning swear to god family of raccoons ran across the street in my suburban neighborhood when I'd never seen raccoons before.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
Oh god the bunnies in Cap Hill they are so big. I see a bunny almost every time I go for a longer walk. I've seen them like eight times during this, but only one cat.
I have also seen a Stellar's Jay and a Northern Flicker, both A tier beautiful birds.
In local western washington is slowly becoming an apocalypse setting. I'm seeing a shit ton of bunnies in my town. So many bunnies, and then this morning swear to god family of raccoons ran across the street in my suburban neighborhood when I'd never seen raccoons before.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
It was about a decade ago, but I did see deer wandering across the cul de sac where I used to live in Redmond. About 5-6 blocks north of the Microsoft campus.
In local western washington is slowly becoming an apocalypse setting. I'm seeing a shit ton of bunnies in my town. So many bunnies, and then this morning swear to god family of raccoons ran across the street in my suburban neighborhood when I'd never seen raccoons before.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
Oh god the bunnies in Cap Hill they are so big. I see a bunny almost every time I go for a longer walk. I've seen them like eight times during this, but only one cat.
I have also seen a Stellar's Jay and a Northern Flicker, both A tier beautiful birds.
I honestly think that stray cats must not be as much of a thing right now or I wouldn't see so many bunnies. But in Bothell bunnies are fucking everywhere. When I go for my run in the morning I pass by at least 5 to 6 and those are just the ones I see.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
In local western washington is slowly becoming an apocalypse setting. I'm seeing a shit ton of bunnies in my town. So many bunnies, and then this morning swear to god family of raccoons ran across the street in my suburban neighborhood when I'd never seen raccoons before.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
Question is, how good are the Washington Bunnies at sawing off Florida?
It is worth noting that the last few pages have shown that CHOP has utterly lost whatever power it had in effecting change. The people on this board, in this thread, are way way more sympathetic to CHOP than the overwhelming majority of the people of Seattle.
Honestly I don't think CHOP itself did any good in effecting change after the police pulled back from the east prescient but that is debatable. Things might swing back in favor of the protests (which are different from CHOP itself) if the police openly resume the violence. But right now all they have to do is sit on their hands and the "people in the neighborhood" are going to get very anti-CHOP very quickly. If a protest of local people against CHOP gets started that would be all the cover the police would need to dismantle whoever is left there without riling up the public in favor of improving on the (very limited) reforms that were won during the violent protests prior to CHOP forming.
It's not fair. And it shows the remarkably short attention span of our culture. But that's what is going to happen.
I think an empircal evaluation of CHOP's effectiveness is useful, bur I think the error was made well before CHOP was a thing. I think I said as much here but containing the protests so heavily to Capitol Hill was a mistake. They should have spent more time being a pain in the ass in parts of the city that dont view Durkan as scum.
That said while efforts are stalling in Seattle, they're stalling in a lot of places, with notable exceptions. So maybe CHOP was a mistake but Im not sure how much in weighs against the overwhelming weight of the challenge to begin with. Sort of like saying I lost to Usain Bolt because I wore dress shoes.
Some reforms have been gained. A tiny drop in the bucket compared to what was demanded but some. But those were gained based on the momentum of the protests when the police were openly attacking protestors, using chemical weapons etc... Once they pulled back, which allowed chaz / chop to form, was the turning point. In a way the fact that police in Seattle proved to be more disciplined than in most of the US will be the cause of the small amount of reform won from the protests.
I am sure the cops on the street hated it but their leadership was able to force them to disengage and de-escalate and have managed to sit on them since. While Best has been waging a very effective pro-SDP campaign in the media (I don't like what she's saying but you can't deny she is good at PR). The fact Best and Durkan did so out of 100% selfish and cynical motives doesn't matter. They had the bare minimum of self awareness to realize the course they wanted to take (putting down protests by force) was the very thing fueling the protests and effective change against themselves. That is a super low bar but is still way ahead of most of the police in this country.
I think getting the cops to back off probably helped the city to stave off deeper changes for now, but I'm not sure that's the whole story. Richmond is, last I heard, still a war zone and they're not seeming to get anywhere with it. I think maybe one of the bigger hurdles in Seattle has been the weight of useless white liberalism. A lot of the cities seeing sweeping reform are more heavily minority so there's less of a liberal "Oh I support the thing but this is different" base for the power structure to hold out on the back of. No lack of iron fences with diversity signs behind them here.
Enacting nearly all police reform is so local, and so completely dependent on exactly who is elected to local government positions (often in elections people just ignore because they seem so small time) that I don't think Richmond being a war zone is likely to lead to changes in Seattle.
One example of this, the way our city government is put together you only need 6 out of 9 people to remove the mayor from office. It's not the total impossibility of, for example, the federal senate ever removing Trump no matter what he does. Or passing a federal constitutional amendment (regardless of the content of said amendment). One of those 9 absolutely would vote to remove the mayor. Several more made public statements calling for the mayor to resign (though that is a "safe" thing to do since they knew that Durkan is less likely to resign than the senate is to remove Trump). We have an actual socialist among those 9 people. On a small enough scale the hard realities of large scale elections (anything statewide or bigger) are not so set in stone.
It is worth noting that the last few pages have shown that CHOP has utterly lost whatever power it had in effecting change. The people on this board, in this thread, are way way more sympathetic to CHOP than the overwhelming majority of the people of Seattle.
Honestly I don't think CHOP itself did any good in effecting change after the police pulled back from the east prescient but that is debatable. Things might swing back in favor of the protests (which are different from CHOP itself) if the police openly resume the violence. But right now all they have to do is sit on their hands and the "people in the neighborhood" are going to get very anti-CHOP very quickly. If a protest of local people against CHOP gets started that would be all the cover the police would need to dismantle whoever is left there without riling up the public in favor of improving on the (very limited) reforms that were won during the violent protests prior to CHOP forming.
It's not fair. And it shows the remarkably short attention span of our culture. But that's what is going to happen.
I think an empircal evaluation of CHOP's effectiveness is useful, bur I think the error was made well before CHOP was a thing. I think I said as much here but containing the protests so heavily to Capitol Hill was a mistake. They should have spent more time being a pain in the ass in parts of the city that dont view Durkan as scum.
That said while efforts are stalling in Seattle, they're stalling in a lot of places, with notable exceptions. So maybe CHOP was a mistake but Im not sure how much in weighs against the overwhelming weight of the challenge to begin with. Sort of like saying I lost to Usain Bolt because I wore dress shoes.
Some reforms have been gained. A tiny drop in the bucket compared to what was demanded but some. But those were gained based on the momentum of the protests when the police were openly attacking protestors, using chemical weapons etc... Once they pulled back, which allowed chaz / chop to form, was the turning point. In a way the fact that police in Seattle proved to be more disciplined than in most of the US will be the cause of the small amount of reform won from the protests.
I am sure the cops on the street hated it but their leadership was able to force them to disengage and de-escalate and have managed to sit on them since. While Best has been waging a very effective pro-SDP campaign in the media (I don't like what she's saying but you can't deny she is good at PR). The fact Best and Durkan did so out of 100% selfish and cynical motives doesn't matter. They had the bare minimum of self awareness to realize the course they wanted to take (putting down protests by force) was the very thing fueling the protests and effective change against themselves. That is a super low bar but is still way ahead of most of the police in this country.
I think getting the cops to back off probably helped the city to stave off deeper changes for now, but I'm not sure that's the whole story. Richmond is, last I heard, still a war zone and they're not seeming to get anywhere with it. I think maybe one of the bigger hurdles in Seattle has been the weight of useless white liberalism. A lot of the cities seeing sweeping reform are more heavily minority so there's less of a liberal "Oh I support the thing but this is different" base for the power structure to hold out on the back of. No lack of iron fences with diversity signs behind them here.
Enacting nearly all police reform is so local, and so completely dependent on exactly who is elected to local government positions (often in elections people just ignore because they seem so small time) that I don't think Richmond being a war zone is likely to lead to changes in Seattle.
One example of this, the way our city government is put together you only need 6 out of 9 people to remove the mayor from office. It's not the total impossibility of, for example, the federal senate ever removing Trump no matter what he does. Or passing a federal constitutional amendment (regardless of the content of said amendment). One of those 9 absolutely would vote to remove the mayor. Several more made public statements calling for the mayor to resign (though that is a "safe" thing to do since they knew that Durkan is less likely to resign than the senate is to remove Trump). We have an actual socialist among those 9 people. On a small enough scale the hard realities of large scale elections (anything statewide or bigger) are not so set in stone.
In local western washington is slowly becoming an apocalypse setting. I'm seeing a shit ton of bunnies in my town. So many bunnies, and then this morning swear to god family of raccoons ran across the street in my suburban neighborhood when I'd never seen raccoons before.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
Question is, how good are the Washington Bunnies at sawing off Florida?
Hipster bunnies not bugs, these ones just want to tell you about this great IPA they had at their local and then get into discussions on sustainable farming.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
It is worth noting that the last few pages have shown that CHOP has utterly lost whatever power it had in effecting change. The people on this board, in this thread, are way way more sympathetic to CHOP than the overwhelming majority of the people of Seattle.
Honestly I don't think CHOP itself did any good in effecting change after the police pulled back from the east prescient but that is debatable. Things might swing back in favor of the protests (which are different from CHOP itself) if the police openly resume the violence. But right now all they have to do is sit on their hands and the "people in the neighborhood" are going to get very anti-CHOP very quickly. If a protest of local people against CHOP gets started that would be all the cover the police would need to dismantle whoever is left there without riling up the public in favor of improving on the (very limited) reforms that were won during the violent protests prior to CHOP forming.
It's not fair. And it shows the remarkably short attention span of our culture. But that's what is going to happen.
I think an empircal evaluation of CHOP's effectiveness is useful, bur I think the error was made well before CHOP was a thing. I think I said as much here but containing the protests so heavily to Capitol Hill was a mistake. They should have spent more time being a pain in the ass in parts of the city that dont view Durkan as scum.
That said while efforts are stalling in Seattle, they're stalling in a lot of places, with notable exceptions. So maybe CHOP was a mistake but Im not sure how much in weighs against the overwhelming weight of the challenge to begin with. Sort of like saying I lost to Usain Bolt because I wore dress shoes.
Some reforms have been gained. A tiny drop in the bucket compared to what was demanded but some. But those were gained based on the momentum of the protests when the police were openly attacking protestors, using chemical weapons etc... Once they pulled back, which allowed chaz / chop to form, was the turning point. In a way the fact that police in Seattle proved to be more disciplined than in most of the US will be the cause of the small amount of reform won from the protests.
I am sure the cops on the street hated it but their leadership was able to force them to disengage and de-escalate and have managed to sit on them since. While Best has been waging a very effective pro-SDP campaign in the media (I don't like what she's saying but you can't deny she is good at PR). The fact Best and Durkan did so out of 100% selfish and cynical motives doesn't matter. They had the bare minimum of self awareness to realize the course they wanted to take (putting down protests by force) was the very thing fueling the protests and effective change against themselves. That is a super low bar but is still way ahead of most of the police in this country.
I think getting the cops to back off probably helped the city to stave off deeper changes for now, but I'm not sure that's the whole story. Richmond is, last I heard, still a war zone and they're not seeming to get anywhere with it. I think maybe one of the bigger hurdles in Seattle has been the weight of useless white liberalism. A lot of the cities seeing sweeping reform are more heavily minority so there's less of a liberal "Oh I support the thing but this is different" base for the power structure to hold out on the back of. No lack of iron fences with diversity signs behind them here.
Enacting nearly all police reform is so local, and so completely dependent on exactly who is elected to local government positions (often in elections people just ignore because they seem so small time) that I don't think Richmond being a war zone is likely to lead to changes in Seattle.
One example of this, the way our city government is put together you only need 6 out of 9 people to remove the mayor from office. It's not the total impossibility of, for example, the federal senate ever removing Trump no matter what he does. Or passing a federal constitutional amendment (regardless of the content of said amendment). One of those 9 absolutely would vote to remove the mayor. Several more made public statements calling for the mayor to resign (though that is a "safe" thing to do since they knew that Durkan is less likely to resign than the senate is to remove Trump). We have an actual socialist among those 9 people. On a small enough scale the hard realities of large scale elections (anything statewide or bigger) are not so set in stone.
I think you misunderstood me
aaah ok I get what you mean now. Yeah I don't know enough about the general population there, and especially the makeup of their local government, to know how that is going.
I am very strongly convinced though that here in Seattle it was the violence on the part of the police that was the driving force behind shifting public opinion among the great mass of the population, who are generally very pro-police, in favor of reform.
Attacked by tweeeeeeees!
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HacksawJ. Duggan Esq.Wrestler at LawRegistered Userregular
In local western washington is slowly becoming an apocalypse setting. I'm seeing a shit ton of bunnies in my town. So many bunnies, and then this morning swear to god family of raccoons ran across the street in my suburban neighborhood when I'd never seen raccoons before.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
Oh god the bunnies in Cap Hill they are so big. I see a bunny almost every time I go for a longer walk. I've seen them like eight times during this, but only one cat.
I have also seen a Stellar's Jay and a Northern Flicker, both A tier beautiful birds.
I honestly think that stray cats must not be as much of a thing right now or I wouldn't see so many bunnies. But in Bothell bunnies are fucking everywhere. When I go for my run in the morning I pass by at least 5 to 6 and those are just the ones I see.
The Seattle Center used to tacitly allow stray cats on the grounds to control the rat problem the place has. That policy changed a number of years ago, and now the rat problem has exploded. Nary a cat walks the streets of Lower Queen Anne, anymore.
Also the construction of the new arena has demolished a lot of subterranean rat nests, thus pushing more of them onto surface streets.
In local western washington is slowly becoming an apocalypse setting. I'm seeing a shit ton of bunnies in my town. So many bunnies, and then this morning swear to god family of raccoons ran across the street in my suburban neighborhood when I'd never seen raccoons before.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
Oh god the bunnies in Cap Hill they are so big. I see a bunny almost every time I go for a longer walk. I've seen them like eight times during this, but only one cat.
I have also seen a Stellar's Jay and a Northern Flicker, both A tier beautiful birds.
I honestly think that stray cats must not be as much of a thing right now or I wouldn't see so many bunnies. But in Bothell bunnies are fucking everywhere. When I go for my run in the morning I pass by at least 5 to 6 and those are just the ones I see.
The Seattle Center used to tacitly allow stray cats on the grounds to control the rat problem the place has. That policy changed a number of years ago, and now the rat problem has exploded. Nary a cat walks the streets of Lower Queen Anne, anymore.
Also the construction of the new arena has demolished a lot of subterranean rat nests, thus pushing more of them onto surface streets.
Reminds me of my brother having that same issue when they smashed a tear down house in his neighborhood and suddenly rats were everywhere.
I think I'm just seeing more animals out because car traffic is way down. And its like "summer" or some shit.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
In local western washington is slowly becoming an apocalypse setting. I'm seeing a shit ton of bunnies in my town. So many bunnies, and then this morning swear to god family of raccoons ran across the street in my suburban neighborhood when I'd never seen raccoons before.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
Oh god the bunnies in Cap Hill they are so big. I see a bunny almost every time I go for a longer walk. I've seen them like eight times during this, but only one cat.
I have also seen a Stellar's Jay and a Northern Flicker, both A tier beautiful birds.
I honestly think that stray cats must not be as much of a thing right now or I wouldn't see so many bunnies. But in Bothell bunnies are fucking everywhere. When I go for my run in the morning I pass by at least 5 to 6 and those are just the ones I see.
The Seattle Center used to tacitly allow stray cats on the grounds to control the rat problem the place has. That policy changed a number of years ago, and now the rat problem has exploded. Nary a cat walks the streets of Lower Queen Anne, anymore.
Also the construction of the new arena has demolished a lot of subterranean rat nests, thus pushing more of them onto surface streets.
Reminds me of my brother having that same issue when they smashed a tear down house in his neighborhood and suddenly rats were everywhere.
I think I'm just seeing more animals out because car traffic is way down. And its like "summer" or some shit.
The natural predator of rabbits, coyotes and foxes, generally don't venture far into the cities to hunt for prey. They've basically been operating without predation for a while now, and their numbers are going to explode as a result of that.
In local western washington is slowly becoming an apocalypse setting. I'm seeing a shit ton of bunnies in my town. So many bunnies, and then this morning swear to god family of raccoons ran across the street in my suburban neighborhood when I'd never seen raccoons before.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
Oh god the bunnies in Cap Hill they are so big. I see a bunny almost every time I go for a longer walk. I've seen them like eight times during this, but only one cat.
I have also seen a Stellar's Jay and a Northern Flicker, both A tier beautiful birds.
I honestly think that stray cats must not be as much of a thing right now or I wouldn't see so many bunnies. But in Bothell bunnies are fucking everywhere. When I go for my run in the morning I pass by at least 5 to 6 and those are just the ones I see.
The Seattle Center used to tacitly allow stray cats on the grounds to control the rat problem the place has. That policy changed a number of years ago, and now the rat problem has exploded. Nary a cat walks the streets of Lower Queen Anne, anymore.
Also the construction of the new arena has demolished a lot of subterranean rat nests, thus pushing more of them onto surface streets.
Reminds me of my brother having that same issue when they smashed a tear down house in his neighborhood and suddenly rats were everywhere.
I think I'm just seeing more animals out because car traffic is way down. And its like "summer" or some shit.
The natural predator of rabbits, coyotes and foxes, generally don't venture far into the cities to hunt for prey. They've basically been operating without predation for a while now, and their numbers are going to explode as a result of that.
I mean bunnies do breed like bunnies.
So you're saying we need some hella cute foxes to invade? This is going to turn into an australia situation isn't it? Or worse lead to us having to import posh British nobles to hunt the over run fox population.
Fuck it I'll deal with bunnies.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
In local western washington is slowly becoming an apocalypse setting. I'm seeing a shit ton of bunnies in my town. So many bunnies, and then this morning swear to god family of raccoons ran across the street in my suburban neighborhood when I'd never seen raccoons before.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
Oh god the bunnies in Cap Hill they are so big. I see a bunny almost every time I go for a longer walk. I've seen them like eight times during this, but only one cat.
I have also seen a Stellar's Jay and a Northern Flicker, both A tier beautiful birds.
I honestly think that stray cats must not be as much of a thing right now or I wouldn't see so many bunnies. But in Bothell bunnies are fucking everywhere. When I go for my run in the morning I pass by at least 5 to 6 and those are just the ones I see.
The Seattle Center used to tacitly allow stray cats on the grounds to control the rat problem the place has. That policy changed a number of years ago, and now the rat problem has exploded. Nary a cat walks the streets of Lower Queen Anne, anymore.
Also the construction of the new arena has demolished a lot of subterranean rat nests, thus pushing more of them onto surface streets.
Reminds me of my brother having that same issue when they smashed a tear down house in his neighborhood and suddenly rats were everywhere.
I think I'm just seeing more animals out because car traffic is way down. And its like "summer" or some shit.
The natural predator of rabbits, coyotes and foxes, generally don't venture far into the cities to hunt for prey. They've basically been operating without predation for a while now, and their numbers are going to explode as a result of that.
I mean bunnies do breed like bunnies.
So you're saying we need some hella cute foxes to invade? This is going to turn into an australia situation isn't it? Or worse lead to us having to import posh British nobles to hunt the over run fox population.
Fuck it I'll deal with bunnies.
Looking forward the snake-eating gorilla stage of this process.
I've seen coyotes on the back side of Capitol Hill (near Madison Valley), Ravenna, and north Ballard.
They're around.
I had a coyote absolutely rip a squirrel to shreds outside the (very open) window in my basement apartment around U Village one night while I was sleeping. That was...terrifying to wake up to.
I've seen coyotes on the back side of Capitol Hill (near Madison Valley), Ravenna, and north Ballard.
They're around.
I had a coyote absolutely rip a squirrel to shreds outside the (very open) window in my basement apartment around U Village one night while I was sleeping. That was...terrifying to wake up to.
That Coyote was employed by the power company.
I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
There are loads of wild critters that can thrive in urban/surburban environments, it mostly just comes down to not letting people on the peripheries of cities (i.e., mostly farmers) shoot or poison every fucking living thing that so much as looks at their land.
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ceresWhen the last moon is cast over the last star of morningAnd the future has past without even a last desperate warningRegistered User, Moderatormod
yeah the problem with the city right now is that one of the nine council members is too lefty
certainly nowhere else to look to make improvements
life's a game that you're bound to lose / like using a hammer to pound in screws
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
Using her official position, gave access to City facilities to admit hundreds of individuals at night into
City Hall when it was closed to the public because of COVID-19 and failing to follow the City’s
COVID-19 precautions for the visitors. Her actions put the safety of individuals and City workers at
risk, and it led to janitorial staff making complaints about the incident because of safety concerns.
So is this worse or better than intentionally kettling protesters and hitting them with tear gas? I mean, if we're pretending this is a public health issue. Fuck you, Durkan.
Using her official position and possibly staff to encourage attendants at a rally she led on June 28, 2020
to illegally “occupy” City property, the East Precinct, at a time the City has been trying to de-escalate
the situation and ask individuals to depart because of violence in the area. Days earlier, members of the
Black community had asked that this facility be restored as an active police facility, particularly in light
of the fact it was created at the request of the Black community by actions of former Councilmember
Sam Smith to serve the Central District. We have had a series of devastating gun violence around this
location, including early yesterday morning on Capitol Hill. (Photo attached)
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of all those "de-escalations" going off. Fuck you, Durkan.
Using her official position to lead a march to my home, despite the fact that it was publicly known I was
not there, and she and organizers knew that my address was protected under the state confidentiality
program because of threats against me due largely to my work as U.S. Attorney. All of us have joined
hundreds of demonstrations across the City, but Councilmember Sawant and her followers chose to do
so with reckless disregard of the safety of my family and children. In addition, during or after
Councilmember Sawant’s speech at that rally, her followers vandalized my home by spray-painting
obscenities.
Sorry, you shouldn't get to hide from your constituency. If you cannot have people knowing where you live, you shouldn't hold public office. I give as much of a shit about your home and your family as you do for the people of this city, that you police continued to assault daily. So one last hearty fuck you, Durkan. Resign.
Posts
I don't see how this applies to 2020.
The atrocities I've seen and the mayor's complicity with it during this give me no reason to believe there are consequences.
We failed Charleena Lyles a number of times before the police even showed up. It's a great example of why a tiered approach to policing would be a good replacement for the one-size-fits all approach we have now. Too many wellness check type calls turn into (defensive) shootings by police.
That is, I don't think we should have sent people with guns into that situation. That doesn't mean that the officers involved should have just taken a stabbing for the team.
Once your target has stopped, if you shoot them more, you are no longer doing so in process of defending yourself. As a rule, I mean.
The tiered approach to policing, as you call it, is literally part of the plan to abolish the police and replace it with different systems of community/safety response for incidents like that.
As for the cops in question, literally leaving her apartment was an option. They didn't have to kill her in there. They chose to kill her in there. Saying that society failed her multiple times before the cops showed up is both true and an extreme cop out regarding their culpability in the matter.
I think an empircal evaluation of CHOP's effectiveness is useful, bur I think the error was made well before CHOP was a thing. I think I said as much here but containing the protests so heavily to Capitol Hill was a mistake. They should have spent more time being a pain in the ass in parts of the city that dont view Durkan as scum.
That said while efforts are stalling in Seattle, they're stalling in a lot of places, with notable exceptions. So maybe CHOP was a mistake but Im not sure how much in weighs against the overwhelming weight of the challenge to begin with. Sort of like saying I lost to Usain Bolt because I wore dress shoes.
I mean, I agree, that's literally what I typed? Although I'm pretty sure the car was still moving on and off for the first ~10, although how much of that was intent to drive, and how much someone dieing, I wouldn't know.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
I don't want this to be taken as me supporting the injury of cops, but their job is to put themselves in harm's way for the safety of the rest of society. The idea that they need to be armed so they can put down potential threats makes it clear that people are less interested in them being a shield than they are in them being a weapon.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
I'm aware of that, thanks. You've mistaken me thinking that this is totally irresponsible for me thinking that all the objectives are wrong, or being uneducated about them.
Not for me. You're asking me to choose between arbitrary violence theoretically (and occasionally) constrained within a system of accountability and with at least the semblance of organized rational behavior behind it, and absolutely arbitrary violence by private citizens, with no system of accountability (remember, not involving the police here) and no guarantee of organized or rational behavior at any given time.
These are both shitty choices. I'm still going to pick the one least likely to get me killed. Seriously, anyone would pick the organized gang over the random bunch of shmucks with guns.
Do you know for a fact that they're not? Like, yes, there's no word coming out that they're being held accountable...but that's not the same as "They're not being held accountable for their actions." 'Cuz I sure can't say one way or another because we don't have the information! At this point, we've had 2+ pages of roundabout speculation of what happened less than 20 hours ago. About the only three things that aren't speculation that I've seen or read are: 1) there was a shooting at the abandoned East Precinct, 2) a second shooting happened around an hour later involving a vehicle that looked similar to the one used in the first shooting, and 3) the driver of the vehicle in point 2, a 16-year old kid, is dead.
Like, maybe before we eviscerate each other in here, how about we get actual, verifiable facts going first?
(then again, I've mostly been reading this thread and have only done cursory glances at non-SPD fed news briefs to see if anything's changed recently...so I might've missed a new development)
Much like with other cops, I’ll believe it when I see it.
Until then posters justifying killing “potentially dangerous” black teenagers as professional marksmanship is going to continue to rub me the wrong way.
I think a protest zone is a completely viable tactic, and initially one with good effect. However, that needs to be followed up with something coherent, and some form of actual structure, because while anarchy (proper kind) can indeed work, it has no means of dealing with something like "okay, organise accountable security forces". You have "people who showed up with guns". From someplace. What's their ROE? Force restrictions? Process for dealing with weapons use? That demands some form of central structure in some degree, which just wasn't there, if you want to have "security".
I think things would look a little different if attention had been paid to "how can we ensure emergency vehicles can traverse?", "how do we not disrupt the businesses/delivery traffic/etc", "these residents have been getting gassed along with us, we need to keep them in the dialogue" and such. In addition, yes, security. If you want to exercise your right to defend yourself, I just want you to take the responsibility as a community (small one mind) of ensuring you are wholly accountable to those around you for your actions in your defense. For a weapon that'll cheerfully punch through the average residential wall, I expect that accountability to extend to those living around you as well, not just the protestor next to you.
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@Brody I was agreeing with you btw! Just expanding on it a bit.
That's almost literally what I just said?
Sure, and I apologize for getting a little heated. The conversation is definitely getting a little heated in here.
The Monster Baru Cormorant - Seth Dickinson
Steam: Korvalain
Some reforms have been gained. A tiny drop in the bucket compared to what was demanded but some. But those were gained based on the momentum of the protests when the police were openly attacking protestors, using chemical weapons etc... Once they pulled back, which allowed chaz / chop to form, was the turning point. In a way the fact that police in Seattle proved to be more disciplined than in most of the US will be the cause of the small amount of reform won from the protests.
I am sure the cops on the street hated it but their leadership was able to force them to disengage and de-escalate and have managed to sit on them since. While Best has been waging a very effective pro-SDP campaign in the media (I don't like what she's saying but you can't deny she is good at PR). The fact Best and Durkan did so out of 100% selfish and cynical motives doesn't matter. They had the bare minimum of self awareness to realize the course they wanted to take (putting down protests by force) was the very thing fueling the protests and effective change against themselves. That is a super low bar but is still way ahead of most of the police in this country.
Yeah. Can't deny their effectiveness of doing the Lawful Evil thing, though a huge part of that is overwhelming media complacency. When I have conversations with people who watch news all the time, but haven't been watching the live feeds, they are amazed at just the things which I've seen live, and I have very much been a coward about being close to the action.
When its a deer in the middle of the street than I'll know we're at defcon nutty town and become master blaster.
pleasepaypreacher.net
I think getting the cops to back off probably helped the city to stave off deeper changes for now, but I'm not sure that's the whole story. Richmond is, last I heard, still a war zone and they're not seeming to get anywhere with it. I think maybe one of the bigger hurdles in Seattle has been the weight of useless white liberalism. A lot of the cities seeing sweeping reform are more heavily minority so there's less of a liberal "Oh I support the thing but this is different" base for the power structure to hold out on the back of. No lack of iron fences with diversity signs behind them here.
Oh god the bunnies in Cap Hill they are so big. I see a bunny almost every time I go for a longer walk. I've seen them like eight times during this, but only one cat.
I have also seen a Stellar's Jay and a Northern Flicker, both A tier beautiful birds.
It was about a decade ago, but I did see deer wandering across the cul de sac where I used to live in Redmond. About 5-6 blocks north of the Microsoft campus.
I honestly think that stray cats must not be as much of a thing right now or I wouldn't see so many bunnies. But in Bothell bunnies are fucking everywhere. When I go for my run in the morning I pass by at least 5 to 6 and those are just the ones I see.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Question is, how good are the Washington Bunnies at sawing off Florida?
Enacting nearly all police reform is so local, and so completely dependent on exactly who is elected to local government positions (often in elections people just ignore because they seem so small time) that I don't think Richmond being a war zone is likely to lead to changes in Seattle.
One example of this, the way our city government is put together you only need 6 out of 9 people to remove the mayor from office. It's not the total impossibility of, for example, the federal senate ever removing Trump no matter what he does. Or passing a federal constitutional amendment (regardless of the content of said amendment). One of those 9 absolutely would vote to remove the mayor. Several more made public statements calling for the mayor to resign (though that is a "safe" thing to do since they knew that Durkan is less likely to resign than the senate is to remove Trump). We have an actual socialist among those 9 people. On a small enough scale the hard realities of large scale elections (anything statewide or bigger) are not so set in stone.
I think you misunderstood me
Hipster bunnies not bugs, these ones just want to tell you about this great IPA they had at their local and then get into discussions on sustainable farming.
pleasepaypreacher.net
aaah ok I get what you mean now. Yeah I don't know enough about the general population there, and especially the makeup of their local government, to know how that is going.
I am very strongly convinced though that here in Seattle it was the violence on the part of the police that was the driving force behind shifting public opinion among the great mass of the population, who are generally very pro-police, in favor of reform.
The Seattle Center used to tacitly allow stray cats on the grounds to control the rat problem the place has. That policy changed a number of years ago, and now the rat problem has exploded. Nary a cat walks the streets of Lower Queen Anne, anymore.
Also the construction of the new arena has demolished a lot of subterranean rat nests, thus pushing more of them onto surface streets.
Reminds me of my brother having that same issue when they smashed a tear down house in his neighborhood and suddenly rats were everywhere.
I think I'm just seeing more animals out because car traffic is way down. And its like "summer" or some shit.
pleasepaypreacher.net
The natural predator of rabbits, coyotes and foxes, generally don't venture far into the cities to hunt for prey. They've basically been operating without predation for a while now, and their numbers are going to explode as a result of that.
I mean bunnies do breed like bunnies.
So you're saying we need some hella cute foxes to invade? This is going to turn into an australia situation isn't it? Or worse lead to us having to import posh British nobles to hunt the over run fox population.
Fuck it I'll deal with bunnies.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Looking forward the snake-eating gorilla stage of this process.
They're around.
I had a coyote absolutely rip a squirrel to shreds outside the (very open) window in my basement apartment around U Village one night while I was sleeping. That was...terrifying to wake up to.
That Coyote was employed by the power company.
pleasepaypreacher.net
Durkan is trying to get Sawant kicked of office
yeah the problem with the city right now is that one of the nine council members is too lefty
certainly nowhere else to look to make improvements
fuck up once and you break your thumb / if you're happy at all then you're god damn dumb
that's right we're on a fucked up cruise / God is dead but at least we have booze
bad things happen, no one knows why / the sun burns out and everyone dies
So is this worse or better than intentionally kettling protesters and hitting them with tear gas? I mean, if we're pretending this is a public health issue. Fuck you, Durkan.
I'm sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of all those "de-escalations" going off. Fuck you, Durkan.
Sorry, you shouldn't get to hide from your constituency. If you cannot have people knowing where you live, you shouldn't hold public office. I give as much of a shit about your home and your family as you do for the people of this city, that you police continued to assault daily. So one last hearty fuck you, Durkan. Resign.
And I don't even particularly like Sawant.