It's awesome fun in local or multiplayer co-op. It's significantly less fun alone, especially if you're coming off of SOR3 (with some characters losing massive improvements that came introduced).
After clearing it on normal, hard, and with a couple different characters....it fell short of my (unrealistic) expectations. They went out of their way to make some levels not fun (Jesus Fucking Christ, the beginning of Y Tower sucks ass, no matter how many times I play it), and the boss encounters are balanced in a way the storms of mooks very much aren't. Whoever thought it was a good idea to start you out with three-fourths of your life penalized (one hit and it's gone, until you regenerate all of it) is bad and should feel bad.
Though it is gorgeous, and the soundtrack is (mostly) rocking.
It's gorgeous and the sound track is great. A few things though is that the cast is much larger than you think. So if you want the SOR1/2/3 version of a character or one that wasn't included there is that option. You can also put the game into retro mode to swap up the visuals. And, if you haven't yet, try hitting the arcade machines you can break with a taser!
The effort put into the game is deeply impressive. The fact that they made multiple stupid mistakes (there's really no reason to have a character start at 1/4 health aside from "punishing someone for playing the game") highlights that they put so much work into it regardless (and had a few cases of undeniable bad judgement calls). The "retro" characters are better adapted than I would've ever thought (to be fair, the SOR3 characters demonstrate why the current cast desperately needs evasion moves across the board), itself a impressive feat, and the retro battles are good, though some are much better than others. Really, the game is substantially better if you ignore certain levels, instead of treating it as a completionist's feat like I am.
It's awesome fun in local or multiplayer co-op. It's significantly less fun alone, especially if you're coming off of SOR3 (with some characters losing massive improvements that came introduced).
After clearing it on normal, hard, and with a couple different characters....it fell short of my (unrealistic) expectations. They went out of their way to make some levels not fun (Jesus Fucking Christ, the beginning of Y Tower sucks ass, no matter how many times I play it), and the boss encounters are balanced in a way the storms of mooks very much aren't. Whoever thought it was a good idea to start you out with three-fourths of your life penalized (one hit and it's gone, until you regenerate all of it) is bad and should feel bad.
Though it is gorgeous, and the soundtrack is (mostly) rocking.
It's gorgeous and the sound track is great. A few things though is that the cast is much larger than you think. So if you want the SOR1/2/3 version of a character or one that wasn't included there is that option. You can also put the game into retro mode to swap up the visuals. And, if you haven't yet, try hitting the arcade machines you can break with a taser!
The effort put into the game is deeply impressive. The fact that they made multiple stupid mistakes (there's really no reason to have a character start at 1/4 health aside from "punishing someone for playing the game") highlights that they put so much work into it regardless (and had a few cases of undeniable bad judgement calls). The "retro" characters are better adapted than I would've ever thought (to be fair, the SOR3 characters demonstrate why the current cast desperately needs evasion moves across the board), itself a impressive feat, and the retro battles are good, though some are much better than others. Really, the game is substantially better if you ignore certain levels, instead of treating it as a completionist's feat like I am.
I'm really wondering what your gripes with level design here are. Yes, you start at 1/4th health at the beginning of the last level. You were in a plane crash so they do give you a reason, and the first several enemies they throw your way are enough to rebuild your health with ease. This is also a game where you are frequently blowing your own health down to a quarter and having to gain it all back through combos as well so who cares!
I'll give you the evasion moves but it's really ONLY the SOR3 cast who has it and two of those characters are beyond broken where you sort of fly around the screen constantly burning your health and NEVER get hit while smashing everyone.
I'm hoping that there is DLC with more missions and that it updates some of the characters to the new style.
It's awesome fun in local or multiplayer co-op. It's significantly less fun alone, especially if you're coming off of SOR3 (with some characters losing massive improvements that came introduced).
After clearing it on normal, hard, and with a couple different characters....it fell short of my (unrealistic) expectations. They went out of their way to make some levels not fun (Jesus Fucking Christ, the beginning of Y Tower sucks ass, no matter how many times I play it), and the boss encounters are balanced in a way the storms of mooks very much aren't. Whoever thought it was a good idea to start you out with three-fourths of your life penalized (one hit and it's gone, until you regenerate all of it) is bad and should feel bad.
Though it is gorgeous, and the soundtrack is (mostly) rocking.
It's gorgeous and the sound track is great. A few things though is that the cast is much larger than you think. So if you want the SOR1/2/3 version of a character or one that wasn't included there is that option. You can also put the game into retro mode to swap up the visuals. And, if you haven't yet, try hitting the arcade machines you can break with a taser!
The effort put into the game is deeply impressive. The fact that they made multiple stupid mistakes (there's really no reason to have a character start at 1/4 health aside from "punishing someone for playing the game") highlights that they put so much work into it regardless (and had a few cases of undeniable bad judgement calls). The "retro" characters are better adapted than I would've ever thought (to be fair, the SOR3 characters demonstrate why the current cast desperately needs evasion moves across the board), itself a impressive feat, and the retro battles are good, though some are much better than others. Really, the game is substantially better if you ignore certain levels, instead of treating it as a completionist's feat like I am.
I'm really wondering what your gripes with level design here are. Yes, you start at 1/4th health at the beginning of the last level. You were in a plane crash so they do give you a reason, and the first several enemies they throw your way are enough to rebuild your health with ease. This is also a game where you are frequently blowing your own health down to a quarter and having to gain it all back through combos as well so who cares!
I'll give you the evasion moves but it's really ONLY the SOR3 cast who has it and two of those characters are beyond broken where you sort of fly around the screen constantly burning your health and NEVER get hit while smashing everyone.
I'm hoping that there is DLC with more missions and that it updates some of the characters to the new style.
It's stupid and pointless. We already have penalties for being hit, it's called a health bar, so why are we treating the player like they spammed the special attack 20 times and didn't actually hit anything? You start out unconscious in a holding cell in one level, knocked out of a ship run-aground in another, and you're sucked into arcade machines in others. There's no reason to penalize the player like that other than to penalize the player, no one gives a shit if there was a plane, train, or ship crash. The fact that it could be completely fixed by something as simple as changing a single numerical value (or, in other words, "not doing the stupid thing") just proves the point.
Unsurprisingly, nobody tries to defend the stupidity of the slippery floor that's basically a third of Y Tower. That just sucks out loud, especially when you realize that almost all mooks, besides having no minimum attack distance, also have a wider attack window than you do, so they're perfectly happy to slip above and below you and strike you when you can't hit them. The elevator sequence is a matter of taste, whether you prefer throws to strikes, which characters are lent better to throwing, etc. The floor just sucks.
The other levels aren't nearly as bad. Some are much better than others--the Skytrain, Cargo Ship, introductory level (which is, admittedly, largely a shot-for-shot remake of the starting level in prior titles), unsurprisingly.
It's a good game. It's (definitely) not the best game in the franchise, though it's the arguably the best looking (accepting inevitable advances in technology) and probably the best sounding (especially in sound effects, acknowledge the limitations of the Megadrive's sound processor, though some songs are SOR2 are arguably more memorable).
I was disappointed when certain characters didn't become playable.
Max, Shiva, and Estel.
And I know older versions of the first two are, but both have brand-new versions in this game that match the new art style. I want to play as those.
Everyone feels the way about Estel--and she's a pretty logical choice for ca DLC character, if one is ever done.
(I think this is a safe topic re: spoilers.)
Diva's another one brought up (being the first boss, that's not surprising). Also possibly Nora, if because of the history she and her recolors (Bela, Electra, etc.) have in the franchise as well.
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cj iwakuraThe Rhythm RegentBears The Name FreedomRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I found out later, but I never would have known it was him if someone hadn't told me. Some of the redesigns are so drastically different that they're almost unrecognizable. Like, I'm used to Adam being tall and lanky, that's just his thing.
It's awesome fun in local or multiplayer co-op. It's significantly less fun alone, especially if you're coming off of SOR3 (with some characters losing massive improvements that came introduced).
After clearing it on normal, hard, and with a couple different characters....it fell short of my (unrealistic) expectations. They went out of their way to make some levels not fun (Jesus Fucking Christ, the beginning of Y Tower sucks ass, no matter how many times I play it), and the boss encounters are balanced in a way the storms of mooks very much aren't. Whoever thought it was a good idea to start you out with three-fourths of your life penalized (one hit and it's gone, until you regenerate all of it) is bad and should feel bad.
Though it is gorgeous, and the soundtrack is (mostly) rocking.
It's gorgeous and the sound track is great. A few things though is that the cast is much larger than you think. So if you want the SOR1/2/3 version of a character or one that wasn't included there is that option. You can also put the game into retro mode to swap up the visuals. And, if you haven't yet, try hitting the arcade machines you can break with a taser!
The effort put into the game is deeply impressive. The fact that they made multiple stupid mistakes (there's really no reason to have a character start at 1/4 health aside from "punishing someone for playing the game") highlights that they put so much work into it regardless (and had a few cases of undeniable bad judgement calls). The "retro" characters are better adapted than I would've ever thought (to be fair, the SOR3 characters demonstrate why the current cast desperately needs evasion moves across the board), itself a impressive feat, and the retro battles are good, though some are much better than others. Really, the game is substantially better if you ignore certain levels, instead of treating it as a completionist's feat like I am.
I'm really wondering what your gripes with level design here are. Yes, you start at 1/4th health at the beginning of the last level. You were in a plane crash so they do give you a reason, and the first several enemies they throw your way are enough to rebuild your health with ease. This is also a game where you are frequently blowing your own health down to a quarter and having to gain it all back through combos as well so who cares!
I'll give you the evasion moves but it's really ONLY the SOR3 cast who has it and two of those characters are beyond broken where you sort of fly around the screen constantly burning your health and NEVER get hit while smashing everyone.
I'm hoping that there is DLC with more missions and that it updates some of the characters to the new style.
It's stupid and pointless. We already have penalties for being hit, it's called a health bar, so why are we treating the player like they spammed the special attack 20 times and didn't actually hit anything? You start out unconscious in a holding cell in one level, knocked out of a ship run-aground in another, and you're sucked into arcade machines in others. There's no reason to penalize the player like that other than to penalize the player, no one gives a shit if there was a plane, train, or ship crash. The fact that it could be completely fixed by something as simple as changing a single numerical value (or, in other words, "not doing the stupid thing") just proves the point.
Unsurprisingly, nobody tries to defend the stupidity of the slippery floor that's basically a third of Y Tower. That just sucks out loud, especially when you realize that almost all mooks, besides having no minimum attack distance, also have a wider attack window than you do, so they're perfectly happy to slip above and below you and strike you when you can't hit them. The elevator sequence is a matter of taste, whether you prefer throws to strikes, which characters are lent better to throwing, etc. The floor just sucks.
The other levels aren't nearly as bad. Some are much better than others--the Skytrain, Cargo Ship, introductory level (which is, admittedly, largely a shot-for-shot remake of the starting level in prior titles), unsurprisingly.
It's a good game. It's (definitely) not the best game in the franchise, though it's the arguably the best looking (accepting inevitable advances in technology) and probably the best sounding (especially in sound effects, acknowledge the limitations of the Megadrive's sound processor, though some songs are SOR2 are arguably more memorable).
I mean, I don't mind that losing health. I've never had it actually be a problem. The first groups of guys are the most basic of mooks and you just sort of pummel your way through them.
As for their "ice" style level, wasn't a big thing either really. I typically don't like ice levels, but I don't have a gripe with this one. With the SOR3 characters it's actually sort of funny because of how fast you can close with the enemy and carry them leading to some hilarity. The gripes you have here are the first I've heard of them really, and nobody I've played with has had them. So I guess it's just opinions.
I was disappointed when certain characters didn't become playable.
Max, Shiva, and Estel.
And I know older versions of the first two are, but both have brand-new versions in this game that match the new art style. I want to play as those.
Everyone feels the way about Estel--and she's a pretty logical choice for ca DLC character, if one is ever done.
(I think this is a safe topic re: spoilers.)
Diva's another one brought up (being the first boss, that's not surprising). Also possibly Nora, if because of the history she and her recolors (Bela, Electra, etc.) have in the franchise as well.
It's safe they didn't really hide anything here. Max, Shiva, and Estela are pretty obvious choices and the game is doing pretty well. Those characters are already complete.
It's awesome fun in local or multiplayer co-op. It's significantly less fun alone, especially if you're coming off of SOR3 (with some characters losing massive improvements that came introduced).
After clearing it on normal, hard, and with a couple different characters....it fell short of my (unrealistic) expectations. They went out of their way to make some levels not fun (Jesus Fucking Christ, the beginning of Y Tower sucks ass, no matter how many times I play it), and the boss encounters are balanced in a way the storms of mooks very much aren't. Whoever thought it was a good idea to start you out with three-fourths of your life penalized (one hit and it's gone, until you regenerate all of it) is bad and should feel bad.
Though it is gorgeous, and the soundtrack is (mostly) rocking.
It's gorgeous and the sound track is great. A few things though is that the cast is much larger than you think. So if you want the SOR1/2/3 version of a character or one that wasn't included there is that option. You can also put the game into retro mode to swap up the visuals. And, if you haven't yet, try hitting the arcade machines you can break with a taser!
The effort put into the game is deeply impressive. The fact that they made multiple stupid mistakes (there's really no reason to have a character start at 1/4 health aside from "punishing someone for playing the game") highlights that they put so much work into it regardless (and had a few cases of undeniable bad judgement calls). The "retro" characters are better adapted than I would've ever thought (to be fair, the SOR3 characters demonstrate why the current cast desperately needs evasion moves across the board), itself a impressive feat, and the retro battles are good, though some are much better than others. Really, the game is substantially better if you ignore certain levels, instead of treating it as a completionist's feat like I am.
I'm really wondering what your gripes with level design here are. Yes, you start at 1/4th health at the beginning of the last level. You were in a plane crash so they do give you a reason, and the first several enemies they throw your way are enough to rebuild your health with ease. This is also a game where you are frequently blowing your own health down to a quarter and having to gain it all back through combos as well so who cares!
I'll give you the evasion moves but it's really ONLY the SOR3 cast who has it and two of those characters are beyond broken where you sort of fly around the screen constantly burning your health and NEVER get hit while smashing everyone.
I'm hoping that there is DLC with more missions and that it updates some of the characters to the new style.
It's stupid and pointless. We already have penalties for being hit, it's called a health bar, so why are we treating the player like they spammed the special attack 20 times and didn't actually hit anything? You start out unconscious in a holding cell in one level, knocked out of a ship run-aground in another, and you're sucked into arcade machines in others. There's no reason to penalize the player like that other than to penalize the player, no one gives a shit if there was a plane, train, or ship crash. The fact that it could be completely fixed by something as simple as changing a single numerical value (or, in other words, "not doing the stupid thing") just proves the point.
Unsurprisingly, nobody tries to defend the stupidity of the slippery floor that's basically a third of Y Tower. That just sucks out loud, especially when you realize that almost all mooks, besides having no minimum attack distance, also have a wider attack window than you do, so they're perfectly happy to slip above and below you and strike you when you can't hit them. The elevator sequence is a matter of taste, whether you prefer throws to strikes, which characters are lent better to throwing, etc. The floor just sucks.
The other levels aren't nearly as bad. Some are much better than others--the Skytrain, Cargo Ship, introductory level (which is, admittedly, largely a shot-for-shot remake of the starting level in prior titles), unsurprisingly.
It's a good game. It's (definitely) not the best game in the franchise, though it's the arguably the best looking (accepting inevitable advances in technology) and probably the best sounding (especially in sound effects, acknowledge the limitations of the Megadrive's sound processor, though some songs are SOR2 are arguably more memorable).
I mean, I don't mind that losing health. I've never had it actually be a problem. The first groups of guys are the most basic of mooks and you just sort of pummel your way through them.
As for their "ice" style level, wasn't a big thing either really. I typically don't like ice levels, but I don't have a gripe with this one. With the SOR3 characters it's actually sort of funny because of how fast you can close with the enemy and carry them leading to some hilarity. The gripes you have here are the first I've heard of them really, and nobody I've played with has had them. So I guess it's just opinions.
So, either the player does struggle with it, in which case it's a stupid penalty, or they don't struggle with it, in which case...it adds absolutely nothing, except possibly limiting what moves you can use if you want to recover your health. Unless that's somehow a good thing...
In a sense that "complaints" in video games are "opinions" and not mathematical proofs, yes. I've heard both of them well before the first time I finished the game, so it's not at all surprising to me (except perhaps how consistent they are). I've literally never heard anyone, until maybe now, defend the beginning of Y Island as "a good idea", when the overwhelming response falls between "ignore it or outright object to it", which I find to be telling. It doesn't contribute to the game, it's either a pain in the ass, a useless but forgettable addition to the final level, or somewhere in between. Slippery floors are a trope of bad level design from that era, so no one's particularly shocked by its appearance, so much as the AI's ability to cheese through it (since they have largely perfect movement control and no minimum attack range). I've yet to see anyone say it actually improved the level--I'd wonder how many people when asked "What should be the hardest part of a particular level in Streets of Rage 4?" answer "Oh, slippery floors, for sure."
You're definitely the first person I've heard describe it as "hilarious." But, as you said, opinions.
Unsurprisingly, the removal of SOR3 evasion and sprinting (more the former than the later) is a very common complaint. Not everyone shares it; not everyone like Streets of Rage 4 as a whole, frankly.
The after plane crash was a level gimmick, but so was the sliding floor, and so was the train level with the signs (does no-one ride inside trains? I could beat people up inside a train), and so was the pier with a bunch of holes in it, and the sewer with toxic waste all over the place.
The after plane crash was a level gimmick, but so was the sliding floor, and so was the train level with the signs (does no-one ride inside trains? I could beat people up inside a train), and so was the pier with a bunch of holes in it, and the sewer with toxic waste all over the place.
As usual some gimmicks suck. I'm of the opinion that there are no perfect games, and don't expect there to be--Streets of Rage 4 certainly isn't one.
The wrecking balls in the Concert level are an almost textbook example of a risk-reward gimmick. I think they're hilarious, but they're pretty easily a problem for newer players because, like the rest of the franchise but especially this one, judging your location on the level plane can be difficult especially if you use enemies as a reference (in SOR3, this was still an issue, but you now had a Y-axis roll move). Risk-reward: you can potentially do much more damage, especially combo-damage, with the right timing on the wrecking ball. Exploding barrels work the same way.
The plane crash "injury" is entirely risk, to the point of just being a penalty for making it to the final level. It also took near-zero effort on the part of the developers, unlike the wrecking ball (which needed graphic, collision, and movement models, even if it does re-use existing sound effects), amounting to a number value at the level start. They could've started you missing 3/4 health instead of jeopardizing it...it wouldn't have been much worse, and either is bad.
Streets of Rage 4 has a LOT of SOR-style gimmicks, which is probably very appropriate. Not all of them pay off. I'm not a fan of "Traintop Obstruction Dodge" levels, even though I find them easy to manage (especially when they stop for two discreet sections), and a fight inside a train could've been as much fun depending on how it was implemented. Why not inside and outside? That was a design choice. At least the enemies face the same penalty in the gimmick, the same way they do with the toxic waste puddles (which, in "Underground", are probably overboard in favor of the player...because the AI pathfinding isn't good enough to negotiate them well).
Some gimmicks are good. Some aren't.
EDIT: Unlike stupid slippery floors, this is actually very amusing.
It adds a challenge to the final level; fight as many people as you can without getting hit. A final level is meant to do things like that. I can't see how starting you with 25% health that you can't regain is better than 15% with the chance to get it all back.
And they set the gimick up beforehand after the train level, where you start the art gallery in a similar state, just less so and with health closer to hand.
I can't see how starting you with 25% health that you can't regain is better than 15% with the chance to get it all back.
I didn't say that, but I can see how that is worded strangely on my part: if that health was lost, it would be worse, though probably not exponentially so. And they're both bad decisions (and gimmicks).
Also, of course, it'd have exact same dumb justification: "This is a (harder) level and/or because your plane crashed." As if anyone cared what happened to the plane. There are plenty of better ways to make the final level suitably challenging (a common argument on Reddit is that Y Tower is harder than Y Island...thanks to that stupid floor gimmick).
The after plane crash was a level gimmick, but so was the sliding floor, and so was the train level with the signs (does no-one ride inside trains? I could beat people up inside a train), and so was the pier with a bunch of holes in it, and the sewer with toxic waste all over the place.
all levels are gimicks, if you want to hate on gimics than every level fails.... yet they all work!
The after plane crash was a level gimmick, but so was the sliding floor, and so was the train level with the signs (does no-one ride inside trains? I could beat people up inside a train), and so was the pier with a bunch of holes in it, and the sewer with toxic waste all over the place.
all levels are gimicks, if you want to hate on gimics than every level fails.... yet they all work!
No....just the bad gimmicks that don't work.
Some of them don't. Especially next to the ones that do.
The after plane crash was a level gimmick, but so was the sliding floor, and so was the train level with the signs (does no-one ride inside trains? I could beat people up inside a train), and so was the pier with a bunch of holes in it, and the sewer with toxic waste all over the place.
all levels are gimicks, if you want to hate on gimics than every level fails.... yet they all work!
No....just the bad gimmicks that don't work.
Some of them don't. Especially next to the ones that do.
again, it was done before but when you could keep up in a level you didn't like it, funny you didn't bring up the first time they did it. the sliding is also risk reward, as much so as other things and your complaint about it was you found it hard and got worked by mooks.
it's hard to draw any conclusion from your statements other than "stuff I find hard I don't like and is bad, stuff I didn't I don't notice or care about" at which point you're not giving an honest opinion of a game, your talking about yourself as a player
The after plane crash was a level gimmick, but so was the sliding floor, and so was the train level with the signs (does no-one ride inside trains? I could beat people up inside a train), and so was the pier with a bunch of holes in it, and the sewer with toxic waste all over the place.
all levels are gimicks, if you want to hate on gimics than every level fails.... yet they all work!
No....just the bad gimmicks that don't work.
Some of them don't. Especially next to the ones that do.
again, it was done before but when you could keep up in a level you didn't like it, funny you didn't bring up the first time they did it. the sliding is also risk reward, as much so as other things and your complaint about it was you found it hard and got worked by mooks.
it's hard to draw any conclusion from your statements other than "stuff I find hard I don't like and is bad, stuff I didn't I don't notice or care about" at which point you're not giving an honest opinion of a game, your talking about yourself as a player
I didn't because, while problematic, it wasn't as annoying....because it comes down to a single ill-advised numerical value. Which was the point.
You actually just made the argument, above, "No, everything is great, and if you don't like it, it must be something wrong with you." No, I'm stating an opinion--and so are you, right? I've never suggested your opinion carried any less weight than my own, because they are opinions, just like Klemming has an opinion.
Frankly, "You only don't like parts that are hard," sounds unconvincing (I didn't once claim these were the 'hardest' parts of the game, just the most annoying), and smacks of "Git gid, noob."
EDIT: By the way, if it's so "funny", I actually already noted the train crash level start earlier. It may not have been your intention, but this sounds like a really lame "gotcha" attempt.
The after plane crash was a level gimmick, but so was the sliding floor, and so was the train level with the signs (does no-one ride inside trains? I could beat people up inside a train), and so was the pier with a bunch of holes in it, and the sewer with toxic waste all over the place.
all levels are gimicks, if you want to hate on gimics than every level fails.... yet they all work!
No....just the bad gimmicks that don't work.
Some of them don't. Especially next to the ones that do.
again, it was done before but when you could keep up in a level you didn't like it, funny you didn't bring up the first time they did it. the sliding is also risk reward, as much so as other things and your complaint about it was you found it hard and got worked by mooks.
it's hard to draw any conclusion from your statements other than "stuff I find hard I don't like and is bad, stuff I didn't I don't notice or care about" at which point you're not giving an honest opinion of a game, your talking about yourself as a player
I didn't because, while problematic, it wasn't as annoying....because it comes down to a single ill-advised numerical value. Which was the point.
You actually just made the argument, above, "No, everything is great, and if you don't like it, it must be something wrong with you." No, I'm stating an opinion--and so are you, right? I've never suggested your opinion carried any less weight than my own, because they are opinions, just like Klemming has an opinion.
Frankly, "You only don't like parts that are hard," sounds unconvincing (I didn't once claim these were the 'hardest' parts of the game, just the most annoying), and smacks of "Git gid, noob."
EDIT: By the way, if it's so "funny", I actually already noted the train crash level start earlier. It may not have been your intention, but this sounds like a really lame "gotcha" attempt.
There's no reason to penalize the player like that other than to penalize the player, no one gives a shit if there was a plane, train, or ship crash.
You said that it was unfair to gain back from that health and it was hard to hit people... you're the ONLY one who said it. It's the basic "I can't git gud" argument that's been lobbed at games at all times. It's fine to say "this is to hard for me" but "I can't deal with it, and it was easy to fix, so this is just bad game design" is pretty crappy.
You're an SOR guy that needed evasion moves, this game has some levels that are a bit rough for you, that's fine. But it says what it says, and it's not the game.
The after plane crash was a level gimmick, but so was the sliding floor, and so was the train level with the signs (does no-one ride inside trains? I could beat people up inside a train), and so was the pier with a bunch of holes in it, and the sewer with toxic waste all over the place.
all levels are gimicks, if you want to hate on gimics than every level fails.... yet they all work!
No....just the bad gimmicks that don't work.
Some of them don't. Especially next to the ones that do.
again, it was done before but when you could keep up in a level you didn't like it, funny you didn't bring up the first time they did it. the sliding is also risk reward, as much so as other things and your complaint about it was you found it hard and got worked by mooks.
it's hard to draw any conclusion from your statements other than "stuff I find hard I don't like and is bad, stuff I didn't I don't notice or care about" at which point you're not giving an honest opinion of a game, your talking about yourself as a player
I didn't because, while problematic, it wasn't as annoying....because it comes down to a single ill-advised numerical value. Which was the point.
You actually just made the argument, above, "No, everything is great, and if you don't like it, it must be something wrong with you." No, I'm stating an opinion--and so are you, right? I've never suggested your opinion carried any less weight than my own, because they are opinions, just like Klemming has an opinion.
Frankly, "You only don't like parts that are hard," sounds unconvincing (I didn't once claim these were the 'hardest' parts of the game, just the most annoying), and smacks of "Git gid, noob."
EDIT: By the way, if it's so "funny", I actually already noted the train crash level start earlier. It may not have been your intention, but this sounds like a really lame "gotcha" attempt.
There's no reason to penalize the player like that other than to penalize the player, no one gives a shit if there was a plane, train, or ship crash.
You said that it was unfair to gain back from that health and it was hard to hit people... you're the ONLY one who said it. It's the basic "I can't git gud" argument that's been lobbed at games at all times. It's fine to say "this is to hard for me" but "I can't deal with it, and it was easy to fix, so this is just bad game design" is pretty crappy.
You're an SOR guy that needed evasion moves, this game has some levels that are a bit rough for you, that's fine. But it says what it says, and it's not the game.
If you think the game is beyond reproach, that it couldn't be improved in any way, you're welcome to that opinion. This discussion started because I gave specific cases where the game undermined its own design, becoming harder in some cases, and just more annoying in others. Do you think every level benefits if you start out with a health penalty? Yes? No? Those are opinions, not indisputable truths, just like mine. "Just get better at the game," isn't an automatic "answer" if you find and aspect of the game annoying--and no one here gets to decide what other people find tedious or unenjoyable, especially when they can immediately point to other parts of the game that do it better.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, if you beat the game on normal, and hard, and have started playing it on Mania....a specific aspect of the game can be annoying and unpleasant as well as difficult (against the background a challenging game that is not otherwise annoying and unpleasant). To restate--I'm fine with other people not finding them to be annoying gimmicks, I already know I'm not the only one. I can imagine being on the other side of the same argument.
"Everything works, you just don't get it"--that's your opinion. It's not any more stated reality that anyone else who's made it about any other game.
It's never been clear but I think Blaze is South American and I dig that. Also she was fun as hell to play as in the series and I hope she stays that way.
To briefly pause from this stupid circular argument: Blaze is the daughter of Frank and Michelle Fielding, Londoners (Frank Fielding being a chief of police--presumably of London--and a friend of Axel Stone, as she was the youngest of the cast in the first game). This doesn't expressly mean she's not South American, but I seem to recall in Sega's supplementary materials, she was described as Caucasian (...which doesn't rule it out either, but would presume she's a Briton of some variety).
But this was put in print years ago, promo material included with subsequent releases of the original trilogy. For all I know, they could've changed.
One other thing that bugs me is the lack of an ending. Or maybe that should be that the ending is lacking?
Either way, the game seems more story-oriented than its predecessors -- not heavily so, but noticeably -- and it feels like it just ends kind of abruptly.
I know there are wordless stills over the ending credits, but I found that a little unsatisfying for what came before-- especially since it kind of deprived us of the great art style seen throughout in favor of a more sketch-style version. Still good, but... I don't know. I just feel like there's something missing there.
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One other thing that bugs me is the lack of an ending. Or maybe that should be that the ending is lacking?
Either way, the game seems more story-oriented than its predecessors -- not heavily so, but noticeably -- and it feels like it just ends kind of abruptly.
I know there are wordless stills over the ending credits, but I found that a little unsatisfying for what came before-- especially since it kind of deprived us of the great art style seen throughout in favor of a more sketch-style version. Still good, but... I don't know. I just feel like there's something missing there.
Not being able to script the credits if you're just cruising through Y Island to try raise your score (as far as I know) is annoying and a little old fashion but you run into that sometimes. If you quit out it doesn't add your additional score I think.
A lot of people have suggested the normal game mode is too short, which, admittedly, if you're not dying enough to hit zero in a level, you can get through even the longest one in a few minutes. I'm not sure if that's a problem when combined with the Boss Rush mode but if you were in it for the Single Player experience itself...it's longer than it's earlier predecessors, but still short for a modern game?
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Handsome CostanzaAsk me about 8bitdoRIP Iwata-sanRegistered Userregular
I liked the game so much I decided to spring for the version that came with 3 different cases.
Streets of Rage 4 has been patched on PC and consoles, PC players get 1.04, console players get 1.03 but both contain the same fixes. Here are the rather long notes!
[GENERAL GAMEPLAY ENHANCEMENTS]
Specials and star move can interrupt all hitstun state including air
Specials can interrupt hit freeze
Faster jump start for SOR4 characters
[SOR4 CHARACTERS: FIXES AND ENHANCEMENTS]
AXEL SOR4:
Improved move speed
Added better recovery on-air special
Added additional invincibility frames on grand upper start-up
Added grand upper on the ground (OTG) property
Improved grand upper that now travels farther
Added neutral special OTG property
Neutral specials have now less hit freeze
Pipe swings have now less recovery
Improved air special: all hits connect when OTG + ignore weight class
Lowered defensive cost
Rescaled damage on grand upper
Fwp special better hitbox
Buff charge kick wall damage
Infinite stun-lock fix
Special pipe goes farther
CHERRY SOR4:
Cherry can now jump cancel after uppercut combo and grab uppercut
Added 2 frames stun on punches
Cherry’s flying punch from combo is now fully invincible
Cherry’s charged flying punch is invincible before hit
Full invulnerability during fall is removed
Special forward is faster
Damage Buff
Back throw works in corners
Pogo kick can hit OTG
Cherry damages are rescaled on normal combo
FLOYD SOR4:
Floyd’s attack x3 infinite is fixed
Neutral special life costs adjustment
Floyd can no longer reset his grab move counter by jumping
Special take less HP
BLAZE SOR4:
Reduced vertical speed on juggle neutral special
Reduced vertical speed on juggle back attack
Blaze’s back attack has a high bounce
Jump cancel on combo kick 1st hit
ADAM SOR4:
Fixed Infinite loop
Added neutral special OTG property
[RETRO CHARACTERS: FIXES AND GAMEPLAY ENHANCEMENTS]
AXEL SOR1:
Added invincibility on headbutt
BLAZE SOR1:
Hitting behind with flip kick
ADAM SOR1:
Combo feels more like the original
Added body hit property to his last kick in combo as in original SOR1
Infinite fix
AXEL SOR2:
Fixed Star Move not recovering green health
MAX SOR2:
Atomic drop recovery is now shorter and bigger aoe
SKATE SOR3:
Damage nerf on blitz
AXEL SOR3:
Infinite fix
Increased run speed (+10%)
Fixed Star Move not recovering green health
SHIVA SOR3:
Nerfed Blitz damage
Fixed hitbox on Star Move
[BOSS: FIXES AND ENHANCEMENTS]
Diva:
Bug fix Diva never going in phase 2.
Diva charge is slower.
No armor on kicks.
Electric area disappears faster.
Diva has longer preparation for snake bite.
Diva snake bite has less depth.
Commissioner Stage 2:
Balancing.
Commissioner has longer charge punch time + lower dash grab hitbox.
Estel:
Police attacks are easier to dodge.
Barbon:
Barbon kicks can hit another player after impact.
Shiva:
Smaller hitbox on palm moves.
Shiva double has a chance to align with the player (instead of being full random).
Commissioner Stage 7:
Fewer armor moves.
Riha & Beyo:
Beyo is a little faster.
No more armor moves for Beyo.
Armor finishes sooner for Riha’s moves.
Less fire pond (lesser time and bigger cooldown).
Riha fire aoe moves are slower.
Max:
Throw aoe damage nerf.
Some AI fixes.
Can’t combo the player anymore with 3 shoulder tackles.
Ms.Y:
Ms.Y is now harder to defeat
Elite Shadow reinforcements during the fight.
Mr. Y:
MrY stage 11 harder.
MrY stage 12 evades more.
Robot:
Mr.Y and Ms.Y final fight lasts longer (before the robot appearance)
Some robot hitboxes are smaller.
Legs positions have changed.
Twin getting into the robot regains full life.
Additional damages on the robot.
Fixed a bug preventing Mr.Y from throwing grenades.
Spider robot now has the same attacks in phase 1 & 2.
Fix a bug with Ms.Y not grabbing in stage 12 last fight.
STAGES / ENEMIES:
Galsia weapon hitbox nerf.
Stage 9:
Apple added in the changing room.
1 apple upgraded to chicken.
Stage 12:
Less green life at the beginning.
Fixed pheasant and sparrow rising move not triggering properly.
Shorter electric vial time.
Steam hazards hitbox reduced.
Lots of enemies rising armor moves removed/nerfed.
Bronze enemy is not armor anymore during his attack.
Donovan and palettes have a slower jab punch.
Lower nb of hits to destroy bikes : 3.
Boss Rush:
Barbon clone bug fixed.
Signal R &
Faster walk speed before grab.
VARIOUS
In Battle Mode, special burst would be very annoying, so it is deactivated.
Enemies hurtbox while jumping on screen is bigger.
You can pick up an item that is in the air if it is in your character height.
All characters can hit at point blank.
You cannot charge a move while doing a charged move.
Forward specials are not triggered when pressing up or down.
Wall bounces increments the combo counter.
A character that is in « Body Hit » mode will collide more easily with other characters.
Nora palettes aren’t armor anymore.
Donovan can hold a hammer.
Gold reinforcements on stage 10 boss.
Stage 11 more score items on the plane.
Stage 12 ninja floor changed a little (removed spike ball, added Big Bens).
Faster transition on stage 1_2.
Donovan with a hammer on stage 3_1.
Boss Rush MrY & MsY robot trigger threshold as in Story Mode.
Bikes are now breakable in Stage 6.
Walking upward in front of Roo makes spawn 3 vials.
Score : combo bonuses don’t have a point limit now.
Better reinforcements spawn code preventing some reinforcements from spawning out of bounds.
Combo counters stay alive when hitting shields or guards.
Falling into holes breaks the combo.
Lowered Koobo control weapons number (2 flying at the same time).
Fixing Grenade throwers on roff throwing their grenades out of bounds.
Damage reduced on players when comboed by enemies.
Fixed a bug where you could infinite combo an enemy and refill his life.
Fixing pickup bug when several items overlap.
Weapons start flashing in red at 1/3 life (instead of 1/2).
Sledgehammer freeze reduced a bit.
Fixed input bug when canceling blitz by fwd special near a wall.
Fixed some scripting issues in 5-2 bar fight.
Better reinforcements spawning.
Throwing knives does 36 damage instead of 35 preventing some weird 0hp enemy situations.
Some K-washi shield issues fixed.
Retro Shiva boss fight reworked.
Added 10 frames of stun after vault jump.
Pummel moves fix preventing some infinite.
Aside from them fixing infinites (which I've never managed to pull off anyway) and a couple of nerfs, these mostly seem pretty good? Some character buffs, it seems like a lot less armor on enemies
I'll draw attention to the Galsia weapon hitbox nerf. I'm assuming this means they can't stab me when I'm above and behind them now, which works for me.
I might be willing to attempt the harder difficulties now (I've been bouncing off Hard after multiple attempts).
edit: I take it back, level 12 is now the purest BS ever. They took the morningstar hazard away from the fat guy fight.
I wonder if that patch will allow me to finally use a gamepad with it. It's legitimately the only game that doesn't recognize my wireless Xbox 360 controller.
Made almost all the way through with keyboard control and am close to carpal tunnel syndrome
I liked the game so much I decided to spring for the version that came with 3 different cases.
That is very sharp looking. It's a shame more companies don't do that. I'd love if more companies at least made an effort, like Sonic Mania.
That list of fixes is hilarious. And quite a few of them are desperately needed. I do appreciate that they're acknowledging the current level of bullshit, particularly on the enemy ability side and hitboxes--"Yeah, maybe the Diamond sisters shouldn't have better air tracking than a laser-guided missile. Maybe some of the characters are cripplingly slow. Maybe the Karate masters shouldn't just spam parry over and over. Maybe three fourths of your life shouldn't be wagered on some bullshit airplane crash plot." What do you know, the game isn't perfect after all.
I welcome most of these by the sound of it. I'm surprised, but not unhappy, that they're adding more points to Stage 11's plane section. That might've been my first 'S' rating on hard difficulty (or maybe one of my first 'A's after a run of 'B's). I'll miss the Stage 10 grenadiers throwing their grenades off screen, but maybe they'll spam them a little less. I am a little concerned about the last stage of Stage 12 before the boss rush, but that's honestly the easiest part of the level so I guess that was bound to happen.
I didn't even realize falling into level gaps didn't break a combo. They always seemed to for me. I'm very curious how the Retro Shiva fight will work now.
After playing through it a couple of times, I'd say they've cut down on the BS annoying things, but made certain parts harder to balance them out. It's more of a traditional difficulty curve now, at least.
Before I had the Commissioner and Estel as two of the harder bosses for me, now the Ys rightfully take the spot.
The rolling and jumping Fat Guys have shot to the top of my Oh That Is Bull Shit list though.
Did they patch the Shield Guys are invincible when playing solo problem?
Shield Guys are easy. Attack, standing jump/special when they attack, repeat.
There's an even simple fix if your timing on standing jump attacks isn't good (mine isn't) or you don't want to risk special (which for a single Murphy probably isn't work it ). Attack, jump forward attack over him, quick turn, attack again, repeat. Murphy, etc., can't turn fast enough because they're constantly in their baton swing or pre-baton-swing animation, unless that was changed. This works perfectly with Blaze, Adam, and even with Axel (though your timing window is a bit shorter with him).
Shockingly (see what I did there?) this even works on groups of two Murphys or more if they're in formation.
Against a single shield guy specials are no risk, as you'll immediately earn the health back with a couple of hits. It's only a risk if someone else might hit you, but a special's probably the best way to clear the area so you're free to fight the shield cop anyway.
Blaze 2/3/4 can also just do her double forward attack which almost always flips her over to the other side so their attack whiffs.
tldr:
Weaker characters have been buffed a bit, a lot of enemies have had some of their more annoying traits toned down, the difficulty curve is more of a curve and less of a sine-wave, the Y twins are both tougher, and the last regular enemy fight on level 12 is a crock of bullshit.
New levels, new moves and mechanics, and playable Estel! Two more new characters are also included. Looking at the silhouettes, I'm guessing Max and Shiva?
I just finally beat stage 12 on Mania today. I thought there would be an achievement for doing so, but I guess not. Oh well. At least I'll know that I have no life I'm awesome.
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KoopahTroopahThe koopas, the troopas.Philadelphia, PARegistered Userregular
New DLC looks great. Stoked for new characters and to do another run through.
We finally have a release date of July 16th. And the new survival mode looks utterly mental. The devs have clearly been inspired by all those SORmaker games... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPpJrZGeOUg
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The effort put into the game is deeply impressive. The fact that they made multiple stupid mistakes (there's really no reason to have a character start at 1/4 health aside from "punishing someone for playing the game") highlights that they put so much work into it regardless (and had a few cases of undeniable bad judgement calls). The "retro" characters are better adapted than I would've ever thought (to be fair, the SOR3 characters demonstrate why the current cast desperately needs evasion moves across the board), itself a impressive feat, and the retro battles are good, though some are much better than others. Really, the game is substantially better if you ignore certain levels, instead of treating it as a completionist's feat like I am.
I'm really wondering what your gripes with level design here are. Yes, you start at 1/4th health at the beginning of the last level. You were in a plane crash so they do give you a reason, and the first several enemies they throw your way are enough to rebuild your health with ease. This is also a game where you are frequently blowing your own health down to a quarter and having to gain it all back through combos as well so who cares!
I'll give you the evasion moves but it's really ONLY the SOR3 cast who has it and two of those characters are beyond broken where you sort of fly around the screen constantly burning your health and NEVER get hit while smashing everyone.
I'm hoping that there is DLC with more missions and that it updates some of the characters to the new style.
It's stupid and pointless. We already have penalties for being hit, it's called a health bar, so why are we treating the player like they spammed the special attack 20 times and didn't actually hit anything? You start out unconscious in a holding cell in one level, knocked out of a ship run-aground in another, and you're sucked into arcade machines in others. There's no reason to penalize the player like that other than to penalize the player, no one gives a shit if there was a plane, train, or ship crash. The fact that it could be completely fixed by something as simple as changing a single numerical value (or, in other words, "not doing the stupid thing") just proves the point.
Unsurprisingly, nobody tries to defend the stupidity of the slippery floor that's basically a third of Y Tower. That just sucks out loud, especially when you realize that almost all mooks, besides having no minimum attack distance, also have a wider attack window than you do, so they're perfectly happy to slip above and below you and strike you when you can't hit them. The elevator sequence is a matter of taste, whether you prefer throws to strikes, which characters are lent better to throwing, etc. The floor just sucks.
The other levels aren't nearly as bad. Some are much better than others--the Skytrain, Cargo Ship, introductory level (which is, admittedly, largely a shot-for-shot remake of the starting level in prior titles), unsurprisingly.
It's a good game. It's (definitely) not the best game in the franchise, though it's the arguably the best looking (accepting inevitable advances in technology) and probably the best sounding (especially in sound effects, acknowledge the limitations of the Megadrive's sound processor, though some songs are SOR2 are arguably more memorable).
And I know older versions of the first two are, but both have brand-new versions in this game that match the new art style. I want to play as those.
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Everyone feels the way about Estel--and she's a pretty logical choice for ca DLC character, if one is ever done.
(I think this is a safe topic re: spoilers.)
Diva's another one brought up (being the first boss, that's not surprising). Also possibly Nora, if because of the history she and her recolors (Bela, Electra, etc.) have in the franchise as well.
Yeah, I found out later, but I never would have known it was him if someone hadn't told me. Some of the redesigns are so drastically different that they're almost unrecognizable. Like, I'm used to Adam being tall and lanky, that's just his thing.
I mean, I don't mind that losing health. I've never had it actually be a problem. The first groups of guys are the most basic of mooks and you just sort of pummel your way through them.
As for their "ice" style level, wasn't a big thing either really. I typically don't like ice levels, but I don't have a gripe with this one. With the SOR3 characters it's actually sort of funny because of how fast you can close with the enemy and carry them leading to some hilarity. The gripes you have here are the first I've heard of them really, and nobody I've played with has had them. So I guess it's just opinions.
It's safe they didn't really hide anything here. Max, Shiva, and Estela are pretty obvious choices and the game is doing pretty well. Those characters are already complete.
So, either the player does struggle with it, in which case it's a stupid penalty, or they don't struggle with it, in which case...it adds absolutely nothing, except possibly limiting what moves you can use if you want to recover your health. Unless that's somehow a good thing...
In a sense that "complaints" in video games are "opinions" and not mathematical proofs, yes. I've heard both of them well before the first time I finished the game, so it's not at all surprising to me (except perhaps how consistent they are). I've literally never heard anyone, until maybe now, defend the beginning of Y Island as "a good idea", when the overwhelming response falls between "ignore it or outright object to it", which I find to be telling. It doesn't contribute to the game, it's either a pain in the ass, a useless but forgettable addition to the final level, or somewhere in between. Slippery floors are a trope of bad level design from that era, so no one's particularly shocked by its appearance, so much as the AI's ability to cheese through it (since they have largely perfect movement control and no minimum attack range). I've yet to see anyone say it actually improved the level--I'd wonder how many people when asked "What should be the hardest part of a particular level in Streets of Rage 4?" answer "Oh, slippery floors, for sure."
You're definitely the first person I've heard describe it as "hilarious." But, as you said, opinions.
Unsurprisingly, the removal of SOR3 evasion and sprinting (more the former than the later) is a very common complaint. Not everyone shares it; not everyone like Streets of Rage 4 as a whole, frankly.
As usual some gimmicks suck. I'm of the opinion that there are no perfect games, and don't expect there to be--Streets of Rage 4 certainly isn't one.
The wrecking balls in the Concert level are an almost textbook example of a risk-reward gimmick. I think they're hilarious, but they're pretty easily a problem for newer players because, like the rest of the franchise but especially this one, judging your location on the level plane can be difficult especially if you use enemies as a reference (in SOR3, this was still an issue, but you now had a Y-axis roll move). Risk-reward: you can potentially do much more damage, especially combo-damage, with the right timing on the wrecking ball. Exploding barrels work the same way.
The plane crash "injury" is entirely risk, to the point of just being a penalty for making it to the final level. It also took near-zero effort on the part of the developers, unlike the wrecking ball (which needed graphic, collision, and movement models, even if it does re-use existing sound effects), amounting to a number value at the level start. They could've started you missing 3/4 health instead of jeopardizing it...it wouldn't have been much worse, and either is bad.
Streets of Rage 4 has a LOT of SOR-style gimmicks, which is probably very appropriate. Not all of them pay off. I'm not a fan of "Traintop Obstruction Dodge" levels, even though I find them easy to manage (especially when they stop for two discreet sections), and a fight inside a train could've been as much fun depending on how it was implemented. Why not inside and outside? That was a design choice. At least the enemies face the same penalty in the gimmick, the same way they do with the toxic waste puddles (which, in "Underground", are probably overboard in favor of the player...because the AI pathfinding isn't good enough to negotiate them well).
Some gimmicks are good. Some aren't.
EDIT: Unlike stupid slippery floors, this is actually very amusing.
And they set the gimick up beforehand after the train level, where you start the art gallery in a similar state, just less so and with health closer to hand.
I didn't say that, but I can see how that is worded strangely on my part: if that health was lost, it would be worse, though probably not exponentially so. And they're both bad decisions (and gimmicks).
Also, of course, it'd have exact same dumb justification: "This is a (harder) level and/or because your plane crashed." As if anyone cared what happened to the plane. There are plenty of better ways to make the final level suitably challenging (a common argument on Reddit is that Y Tower is harder than Y Island...thanks to that stupid floor gimmick).
all levels are gimicks, if you want to hate on gimics than every level fails.... yet they all work!
No....just the bad gimmicks that don't work.
Some of them don't. Especially next to the ones that do.
again, it was done before but when you could keep up in a level you didn't like it, funny you didn't bring up the first time they did it. the sliding is also risk reward, as much so as other things and your complaint about it was you found it hard and got worked by mooks.
it's hard to draw any conclusion from your statements other than "stuff I find hard I don't like and is bad, stuff I didn't I don't notice or care about" at which point you're not giving an honest opinion of a game, your talking about yourself as a player
I didn't because, while problematic, it wasn't as annoying....because it comes down to a single ill-advised numerical value. Which was the point.
You actually just made the argument, above, "No, everything is great, and if you don't like it, it must be something wrong with you." No, I'm stating an opinion--and so are you, right? I've never suggested your opinion carried any less weight than my own, because they are opinions, just like Klemming has an opinion.
Frankly, "You only don't like parts that are hard," sounds unconvincing (I didn't once claim these were the 'hardest' parts of the game, just the most annoying), and smacks of "Git gid, noob."
EDIT: By the way, if it's so "funny", I actually already noted the train crash level start earlier. It may not have been your intention, but this sounds like a really lame "gotcha" attempt.
You said that it was unfair to gain back from that health and it was hard to hit people... you're the ONLY one who said it. It's the basic "I can't git gud" argument that's been lobbed at games at all times. It's fine to say "this is to hard for me" but "I can't deal with it, and it was easy to fix, so this is just bad game design" is pretty crappy.
You're an SOR guy that needed evasion moves, this game has some levels that are a bit rough for you, that's fine. But it says what it says, and it's not the game.
If you think the game is beyond reproach, that it couldn't be improved in any way, you're welcome to that opinion. This discussion started because I gave specific cases where the game undermined its own design, becoming harder in some cases, and just more annoying in others. Do you think every level benefits if you start out with a health penalty? Yes? No? Those are opinions, not indisputable truths, just like mine. "Just get better at the game," isn't an automatic "answer" if you find and aspect of the game annoying--and no one here gets to decide what other people find tedious or unenjoyable, especially when they can immediately point to other parts of the game that do it better.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say, if you beat the game on normal, and hard, and have started playing it on Mania....a specific aspect of the game can be annoying and unpleasant as well as difficult (against the background a challenging game that is not otherwise annoying and unpleasant). To restate--I'm fine with other people not finding them to be annoying gimmicks, I already know I'm not the only one. I can imagine being on the other side of the same argument.
"Everything works, you just don't get it"--that's your opinion. It's not any more stated reality that anyone else who's made it about any other game.
EDIT:
To briefly pause from this stupid circular argument: Blaze is the daughter of Frank and Michelle Fielding, Londoners (Frank Fielding being a chief of police--presumably of London--and a friend of Axel Stone, as she was the youngest of the cast in the first game). This doesn't expressly mean she's not South American, but I seem to recall in Sega's supplementary materials, she was described as Caucasian (...which doesn't rule it out either, but would presume she's a Briton of some variety).
But this was put in print years ago, promo material included with subsequent releases of the original trilogy. For all I know, they could've changed.
Either way, the game seems more story-oriented than its predecessors -- not heavily so, but noticeably -- and it feels like it just ends kind of abruptly.
I know there are wordless stills over the ending credits, but I found that a little unsatisfying for what came before-- especially since it kind of deprived us of the great art style seen throughout in favor of a more sketch-style version. Still good, but... I don't know. I just feel like there's something missing there.
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Not being able to script the credits if you're just cruising through Y Island to try raise your score (as far as I know) is annoying and a little old fashion but you run into that sometimes. If you quit out it doesn't add your additional score I think.
A lot of people have suggested the normal game mode is too short, which, admittedly, if you're not dying enough to hit zero in a level, you can get through even the longest one in a few minutes. I'm not sure if that's a problem when combined with the Boss Rush mode but if you were in it for the Single Player experience itself...it's longer than it's earlier predecessors, but still short for a modern game?
I liked the game so much I decided to spring for the version that came with 3 different cases.
Resident 8bitdo expert.
Resident hybrid/flap cover expert.
Like Mega Man Legends? Then check out my story, Legends of the Halcyon Era - An Adventure in the World of Mega Man Legends on TMMN and AO3!
[GENERAL GAMEPLAY ENHANCEMENTS]
Specials and star move can interrupt all hitstun state including air
Specials can interrupt hit freeze
Faster jump start for SOR4 characters
[SOR4 CHARACTERS: FIXES AND ENHANCEMENTS]
AXEL SOR4:
Improved move speed
Added better recovery on-air special
Added additional invincibility frames on grand upper start-up
Added grand upper on the ground (OTG) property
Improved grand upper that now travels farther
Added neutral special OTG property
Neutral specials have now less hit freeze
Pipe swings have now less recovery
Improved air special: all hits connect when OTG + ignore weight class
Lowered defensive cost
Rescaled damage on grand upper
Fwp special better hitbox
Buff charge kick wall damage
Infinite stun-lock fix
Special pipe goes farther
CHERRY SOR4:
Cherry can now jump cancel after uppercut combo and grab uppercut
Added 2 frames stun on punches
Cherry’s flying punch from combo is now fully invincible
Cherry’s charged flying punch is invincible before hit
Full invulnerability during fall is removed
Special forward is faster
Damage Buff
Back throw works in corners
Pogo kick can hit OTG
Cherry damages are rescaled on normal combo
FLOYD SOR4:
Floyd’s attack x3 infinite is fixed
Neutral special life costs adjustment
Floyd can no longer reset his grab move counter by jumping
Special take less HP
BLAZE SOR4:
Reduced vertical speed on juggle neutral special
Reduced vertical speed on juggle back attack
Blaze’s back attack has a high bounce
Jump cancel on combo kick 1st hit
ADAM SOR4:
Fixed Infinite loop
Added neutral special OTG property
[RETRO CHARACTERS: FIXES AND GAMEPLAY ENHANCEMENTS]
AXEL SOR1:
Added invincibility on headbutt
BLAZE SOR1:
Hitting behind with flip kick
ADAM SOR1:
Combo feels more like the original
Added body hit property to his last kick in combo as in original SOR1
Infinite fix
AXEL SOR2:
Fixed Star Move not recovering green health
MAX SOR2:
Atomic drop recovery is now shorter and bigger aoe
SKATE SOR3:
Damage nerf on blitz
AXEL SOR3:
Infinite fix
Increased run speed (+10%)
Fixed Star Move not recovering green health
SHIVA SOR3:
Nerfed Blitz damage
Fixed hitbox on Star Move
[BOSS: FIXES AND ENHANCEMENTS]
Diva:
Bug fix Diva never going in phase 2.
Diva charge is slower.
No armor on kicks.
Electric area disappears faster.
Diva has longer preparation for snake bite.
Diva snake bite has less depth.
Commissioner Stage 2:
Balancing.
Commissioner has longer charge punch time + lower dash grab hitbox.
Estel:
Police attacks are easier to dodge.
Barbon:
Barbon kicks can hit another player after impact.
Shiva:
Smaller hitbox on palm moves.
Shiva double has a chance to align with the player (instead of being full random).
Commissioner Stage 7:
Fewer armor moves.
Riha & Beyo:
Beyo is a little faster.
No more armor moves for Beyo.
Armor finishes sooner for Riha’s moves.
Less fire pond (lesser time and bigger cooldown).
Riha fire aoe moves are slower.
Max:
Throw aoe damage nerf.
Some AI fixes.
Can’t combo the player anymore with 3 shoulder tackles.
Ms.Y:
Ms.Y is now harder to defeat
Elite Shadow reinforcements during the fight.
Mr. Y:
MrY stage 11 harder.
MrY stage 12 evades more.
Robot:
Mr.Y and Ms.Y final fight lasts longer (before the robot appearance)
Some robot hitboxes are smaller.
Legs positions have changed.
Twin getting into the robot regains full life.
Additional damages on the robot.
Fixed a bug preventing Mr.Y from throwing grenades.
Spider robot now has the same attacks in phase 1 & 2.
Fix a bug with Ms.Y not grabbing in stage 12 last fight.
STAGES / ENEMIES:
Galsia weapon hitbox nerf.
Stage 9:
Apple added in the changing room.
1 apple upgraded to chicken.
Stage 12:
Less green life at the beginning.
Fixed pheasant and sparrow rising move not triggering properly.
Shorter electric vial time.
Steam hazards hitbox reduced.
Lots of enemies rising armor moves removed/nerfed.
Karate:
Longer parry recovery time.
Easier massive punch dodge.
Caramel and Candy:
Headbutt nerf: hitbox + hitbox depth nerf.
Lower hp.
DIAMOND / palettes:
Jump kick track less.
Slap is slower.
Dylan:
No armor.
Raven / palettes:
Slower kicks.
Slower knee while rising.
Turn toward the target when rising.
Taser Cop:
Slower start up.
Smaller hitbox height.
Less HP.
Big Ben / Gourmand:
Gourmand jump attack tracks less.
Gourmand doesn’t do 2 hits anymore with air attack.
Armor removed on Big Ben fire attack.
Elite Cop:
Slower shield regeneration.
Slower attack.
Bronze enemy is not armor anymore during his attack.
Donovan and palettes have a slower jab punch.
Lower nb of hits to destroy bikes : 3.
Boss Rush:
Barbon clone bug fixed.
Signal R &
Faster walk speed before grab.
VARIOUS
In Battle Mode, special burst would be very annoying, so it is deactivated.
Enemies hurtbox while jumping on screen is bigger.
You can pick up an item that is in the air if it is in your character height.
All characters can hit at point blank.
You cannot charge a move while doing a charged move.
Forward specials are not triggered when pressing up or down.
Wall bounces increments the combo counter.
A character that is in « Body Hit » mode will collide more easily with other characters.
Nora palettes aren’t armor anymore.
Donovan can hold a hammer.
Gold reinforcements on stage 10 boss.
Stage 11 more score items on the plane.
Stage 12 ninja floor changed a little (removed spike ball, added Big Bens).
Faster transition on stage 1_2.
Donovan with a hammer on stage 3_1.
Boss Rush MrY & MsY robot trigger threshold as in Story Mode.
Bikes are now breakable in Stage 6.
Walking upward in front of Roo makes spawn 3 vials.
Score : combo bonuses don’t have a point limit now.
Better reinforcements spawn code preventing some reinforcements from spawning out of bounds.
Combo counters stay alive when hitting shields or guards.
Falling into holes breaks the combo.
Lowered Koobo control weapons number (2 flying at the same time).
Fixing Grenade throwers on roff throwing their grenades out of bounds.
Damage reduced on players when comboed by enemies.
Fixed a bug where you could infinite combo an enemy and refill his life.
Fixing pickup bug when several items overlap.
Weapons start flashing in red at 1/3 life (instead of 1/2).
Sledgehammer freeze reduced a bit.
Fixed input bug when canceling blitz by fwd special near a wall.
Fixed some scripting issues in 5-2 bar fight.
Better reinforcements spawning.
Throwing knives does 36 damage instead of 35 preventing some weird 0hp enemy situations.
Some K-washi shield issues fixed.
Retro Shiva boss fight reworked.
Added 10 frames of stun after vault jump.
Pummel moves fix preventing some infinite.
I'll draw attention to the Galsia weapon hitbox nerf. I'm assuming this means they can't stab me when I'm above and behind them now, which works for me.
I might be willing to attempt the harder difficulties now (I've been bouncing off Hard after multiple attempts).
edit: I take it back, level 12 is now the purest BS ever. They took the morningstar hazard away from the fat guy fight.
Made almost all the way through with keyboard control and am close to carpal tunnel syndrome
Steam ID: Good Life
That is very sharp looking. It's a shame more companies don't do that. I'd love if more companies at least made an effort, like Sonic Mania.
That list of fixes is hilarious. And quite a few of them are desperately needed. I do appreciate that they're acknowledging the current level of bullshit, particularly on the enemy ability side and hitboxes--"Yeah, maybe the Diamond sisters shouldn't have better air tracking than a laser-guided missile. Maybe some of the characters are cripplingly slow. Maybe the Karate masters shouldn't just spam parry over and over. Maybe three fourths of your life shouldn't be wagered on some bullshit airplane crash plot." What do you know, the game isn't perfect after all.
I welcome most of these by the sound of it. I'm surprised, but not unhappy, that they're adding more points to Stage 11's plane section. That might've been my first 'S' rating on hard difficulty (or maybe one of my first 'A's after a run of 'B's). I'll miss the Stage 10 grenadiers throwing their grenades off screen, but maybe they'll spam them a little less. I am a little concerned about the last stage of Stage 12 before the boss rush, but that's honestly the easiest part of the level so I guess that was bound to happen.
I didn't even realize falling into level gaps didn't break a combo. They always seemed to for me. I'm very curious how the Retro Shiva fight will work now.
Before I had the Commissioner and Estel as two of the harder bosses for me, now the Ys rightfully take the spot.
The rolling and jumping Fat Guys have shot to the top of my Oh That Is Bull Shit list though.
Oh good, the level I couldn't beat anyway got way harder, just what I wanted.
Resident 8bitdo expert.
Resident hybrid/flap cover expert.
There's an even simple fix if your timing on standing jump attacks isn't good (mine isn't) or you don't want to risk special (which for a single Murphy probably isn't work it
Shockingly (see what I did there?) this even works on groups of two Murphys or more if they're in formation.
Blaze 2/3/4 can also just do her double forward attack which almost always flips her over to the other side so their attack whiffs.
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Weaker characters have been buffed a bit, a lot of enemies have had some of their more annoying traits toned down, the difficulty curve is more of a curve and less of a sine-wave, the Y twins are both tougher, and the last regular enemy fight on level 12 is a crock of bullshit.
Like Mega Man Legends? Then check out my story, Legends of the Halcyon Era - An Adventure in the World of Mega Man Legends on TMMN and AO3!
New levels, new moves and mechanics, and playable Estel! Two more new characters are also included. Looking at the silhouettes, I'm guessing Max and Shiva?
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Now we just need to know the release date.
Twitch: KoopahTroopah - Steam: Koopah