Played an Echo Knight at level 3 several times (in Endless_Serpents' current PbP game too!), and level 5 once. Very cool, you can get up to a fuckload of shenanigans
Yeah that does look cool. As does the Battle Master and the Psi Knight. A lot of them look really cool on paper, but I guess I have doubts.
Re: Fighters - What's the issue, beyond the usual casters get to do all sorts of out of combat bullshit, and dnd dosent handle giving fighters/etc similar out of combat tools as well?
I dunno but if I'm being honest it's probably a whole heaping pile of I miss playing my Warlord.
That's fair. I've never played 4E, but whenever i do hear it talked about "Warlord" is at the top of the list of why 4e was fucking good.
I'm just about at the end of the latest (and final) drizzt novel that came out 2 days ago
re: drow not necessarily EVIL heavy spoilers, wizards deffo going another direction with the race as the lore progresses
The illithids revealed the truth of the founding to some of them, the truth that Lolth doesn't care about any of it, the rituals, the matriarchy, the pageantry. That the evil of the drow is a result of thousands of years of backstabbing and deceit until they had created a prison of their own making in their rituals
The lie was that Lolth herself does not care. She hasn't cared in a long while, her original caring being warped by the rituals of her followers over the millenia. Now she is an aspect of chaos, she cares only that their society continue and changes happen, and she herself can be changed. Lolth, of all beings, can be redeemed.
using this revelation they attempted something that is supposed to be impossible: they turned a Drider back into a drow. Everyone is tought that only Lolth can do that and any priestess who tried would be turned into one herself
convincing this to the rest of them seemed impossible, so at the 11th hour, just before an enormous civil war kicked off, they turned every drider back into a dark elf - an act that only the goddess should be able to do, being enacted by those who openly decry the teachings of lolth
it's not a peaceful ending, the civil war was delayed, the "devout" hardly accept this new reality, but now their society is split, and the truth is known to those who wish to hear it.
"We will turn our city back into what it was supposed to be. "Menzoberranzan: sanctuary. That is what the city's name meant in the old tongue, even that truth lost to us, considered heresy to speak aloud. We walked there defeated, finding a place where we could have freedom, our goddess led us to that place... she wasn't called Lolth then, she used to love song and dance and beauty and freedom most of all. Our despair turned to joy, a hundred families had survived, and a hundred families made this place their home. We didn't even like spiders back then. We were refugees from a war of our making, and we just wanted safety.
Over thousands of years of building traditions and rules, each priestess who got a measure of divine power asserting her superiority over the others... layer upon layer, the lights in our hearts went out, war after war, compromise after compromise... at some point we started beating that light out of our children...
With the former driders joining us, each one now knowing the truth of the spider queen, we will try our way back to that place. We will have to pay a great price as a people... this truth will not be accepted by many... but I hope that most will, those under the boots of unreasonable matron mothers... only time will tell"
paraphrased
I really want a published module that takes place after this book, I really want to play in the city of spiders (or, hopefully, the city of sanctuary) post 1490DR... things are going to get very interesting there
A truth and reconciliation of the worshipers of Lolth is something that'd been a long time coming
Just a quick request @Hexmage-PA and @Steelhawk - can you Sblock the images, please? they take up a HUGe chunk of screen realeaste, esp now they've been quoted.
Sure thing. I almost exclusively post on mobile so I never know how big something ends up being on a computer screen.
Played an Echo Knight at level 3 several times (in Endless_Serpents' current PbP game too!), and level 5 once. Very cool, you can get up to a fuckload of shenanigans
Yeah that does look cool. As does the Battle Master and the Psi Knight. A lot of them look really cool on paper, but I guess I have doubts.
Re: Fighters - What's the issue, beyond the usual casters get to do all sorts of out of combat bullshit, and dnd dosent handle giving fighters/etc similar out of combat tools as well?
I dunno but if I'm being honest it's probably a whole heaping pile of I miss playing my Warlord.
My second 5E character was a Battle Master Fighter/Hexblade Warlock primarily so I could inflict as much forced movement as possible. Had the most recent Unearthed Arcana article been a thing back then I would have taken Tandem Tactician and Crusher. The latter feat alone has raised my interest in playing a monk by a significant degree.
Played an Echo Knight at level 3 several times (in Endless_Serpents' current PbP game too!), and level 5 once. Very cool, you can get up to a fuckload of shenanigans
Yeah that does look cool. As does the Battle Master and the Psi Knight. A lot of them look really cool on paper, but I guess I have doubts.
Re: Fighters - What's the issue, beyond the usual casters get to do all sorts of out of combat bullshit, and dnd dosent handle giving fighters/etc similar out of combat tools as well?
I dunno but if I'm being honest it's probably a whole heaping pile of I miss playing my Warlord.
My second 5E character was a Battle Master Fighter/Hexblade Warlock primarily so I could inflict as much forced movement as possible. Had the most recent Unearthed Arcana article been a thing back then I would have taken Tandem Tactician and Crusher. The latter feat alone has raised my interest in playing a monk by a significant degree.
Yeah I keep coming up with ideas like this, then my brain does the math to figure out what level it'll come on line at, then immediately starts listing off all the much more powerful spells that casters will have already had access to by then and I just
Fighters come online at level 1 even if you’re multi-classing. 1d10+3 is an average of 8.5 dmg. 1d10 is an average of 5.5. A 54% advantage. 3d6 (burning hands) is 10.5 average damage. A wizard gets 4 first level spells at level 1. And if they want to be half as tanky as the fighter they spend one on mage armor (so 3). At level 2 the fighter can burst for another d10+3 once per short rest...
At level 5 they’re up to 2d10+8. Which is 19 dmg/round. And they can burst for another 19 once/short rest. A wizard can drop fireball for 28 twice and is otherwise behind the fighter even spending slots. At 6 a fighter can have +5 to their primary stat...
Personally I'm more interested in manuevers and forced movement than I am damage. There's just something so satisfying, IMO, to having reliable mechanics that let you slide a mini or token or whatever a few squares on a grid map. If a class I'm playing has some kind of option like that (thorn whip, thunder wave, manuevering attack, pushing attack, repelling blast, grasp of hadar, etc) I'm taking it.
Fighters come online at level 1 even if you’re multi-classing. 1d10+3 is an average of 8.5 dmg. 1d10 is an average of 5.5. A 54% advantage. 3d6 (burning hands) is 10.5 average damage. A wizard gets 4 first level spells at level 1. And if they want to be half as tanky as the fighter they spend one on mage armor (so 3). At level 2 the fighter can burst for another d10+3 once per short rest...
At level 5 they’re up to 2d10+8. Which is 19 dmg/round. And they can burst for another 19 once/short rest. A wizard can drop fireball for 28 twice and is otherwise behind the fighter even spending slots. At 6 a fighter can have +5 to their primary stat...
first, "come online" is when a given build is effective at what you're building it to do. It's more than just damage. Secondly I would have thought that my not even mentioning damage would have indicated I wasn't considering that as a primary concern. Third you're assuming all fighters are using d10 weapons which is not the case.
I've got a question about forced movement and lingering AoE spells.
For example, Cloud of Daggers, Hunger of Hadar, Wall of Fire etc... .
Forced movement doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity, as I understand it. So using Eldritch Blast to move an enemy past your fighter isn't going to get them stabbed.
But, if you force someone into a cube of spinning, lacerating, death, does that damage occur on their turn since they're starting the turn in the affect, or are they immune since it was forced movement that put them there?
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a sliver of glass)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You fill the air with spinning daggers in a cube 5 feet on each side, centered on a point you choose within range. A creature takes 4d4 slashing damage when it enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there.
Like the text says, when the creature enters the area (when you move it in) and when it starts it's turn still in there. The exception would be if the spell said "willingly enters" which some do say.
I've got a question about forced movement and lingering AoE spells.
For example, Cloud of Daggers, Hunger of Hadar, Wall of Fire etc... .
Forced movement doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity, as I understand it. So using Eldritch Blast to move an enemy past your fighter isn't going to get them stabbed.
But, if you force someone into a cube of spinning, lacerating, death, does that damage occur on their turn since they're starting the turn in the affect, or are they immune since it was forced movement that put them there?
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (a sliver of glass)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You fill the air with spinning daggers in a cube 5 feet on each side, centered on a point you choose within range. A creature takes 4d4 slashing damage when it enters the spell’s area for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there.
I've always ruled that forced movement into a zone triggers the zone's effects, unless the zone says otherwise. That seems like RAW and RAI to me. So in the case of Cloud of Daggers, they would take the damage when the were forced in, and they would take it when they start their turn there.
I think 4E had a rule that allowed a saving throw if a target would be forced into something damaging so that they could instead drop prone just before the damaging thing, but I don't remember 5E having that. And if it did there'd be a big question about which save it would be.
Cloud of Daggers is if it enters it for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there
If you cast Cloud of Daggers onto an enemy, it does not take the damage until its turn, because it didn't enter the spell's area
If you, say, quicken spelled Cloud of Daggers and shoved an enemy into it, it would take the damage immediately, and the again on its turn
If you had your party stand around an enemy and on each of their turns pull it out of the daggers and push it back in, it would just keep getting shredded
Fighters come online at level 1 even if you’re multi-classing. 1d10+3 is an average of 8.5 dmg. 1d10 is an average of 5.5. A 54% advantage. 3d6 (burning hands) is 10.5 average damage. A wizard gets 4 first level spells at level 1. And if they want to be half as tanky as the fighter they spend one on mage armor (so 3). At level 2 the fighter can burst for another d10+3 once per short rest...
At level 5 they’re up to 2d10+8. Which is 19 dmg/round. And they can burst for another 19 once/short rest. A wizard can drop fireball for 28 twice and is otherwise behind the fighter even spending slots. At 6 a fighter can have +5 to their primary stat...
first, "come online" is when a given build is effective at what you're building it to do. It's more than just damage. Secondly I would have thought that my not even mentioning damage would have indicated I wasn't considering that as a primary concern. Third you're assuming all fighters are using d10 weapons which is not the case.
No. Because you mentioned “all the spells” the wizard would get before then... which means that the thing you were measuring online against was not your core idea.
And since you are a fighter x anything then the online-ness of dmg is almost the only thing you could be talking about since fighter x has no almost no uility beyond dmg and so if you were talking about something else it doesn’t have to do much at all with the fighter MC
Also d10 is low for fighter average. Its a longsword used two handed. Its inefficient damage. Fighters would likely use a d8+2 for weapon dmg instead. Or 2d6 brutal 1
Fighters come online at level 1 even if you’re multi-classing. 1d10+3 is an average of 8.5 dmg. 1d10 is an average of 5.5. A 54% advantage. 3d6 (burning hands) is 10.5 average damage. A wizard gets 4 first level spells at level 1. And if they want to be half as tanky as the fighter they spend one on mage armor (so 3). At level 2 the fighter can burst for another d10+3 once per short rest...
At level 5 they’re up to 2d10+8. Which is 19 dmg/round. And they can burst for another 19 once/short rest. A wizard can drop fireball for 28 twice and is otherwise behind the fighter even spending slots. At 6 a fighter can have +5 to their primary stat...
first, "come online" is when a given build is effective at what you're building it to do. It's more than just damage. Secondly I would have thought that my not even mentioning damage would have indicated I wasn't considering that as a primary concern. Third you're assuming all fighters are using d10 weapons which is not the case.
No. Because you mentioned “all the spells” the wizard would get before then... which means that the thing you were measuring online against was not your core idea.
And since you are a fighter x anything then the online-ness of dmg is almost the only thing you could be talking about since fighter x has no almost no uility beyond dmg and so if you were talking about something else it doesn’t have to do much at all with the fighter MC
Also d10 is low for fighter average. Its a longsword used two handed. Its inefficient damage. Fighters would likely use a d8+2 for weapon dmg instead. Or 2d6 brutal 1
Cloud of Daggers is if it enters it for the first time on a turn or starts its turn there
If you cast Cloud of Daggers onto an enemy, it does not take the damage until its turn, because it didn't enter the spell's area
If you, say, quicken spelled Cloud of Daggers and shoved an enemy into it, it would take the damage immediately, and the again on its turn
If you had your party stand around an enemy and on each of their turns pull it out of the daggers and push it back in, it would just keep getting shredded
This just sounds like a woodchipper with extra steps.
Fighters come online at level 1 even if you’re multi-classing. 1d10+3 is an average of 8.5 dmg. 1d10 is an average of 5.5. A 54% advantage. 3d6 (burning hands) is 10.5 average damage. A wizard gets 4 first level spells at level 1. And if they want to be half as tanky as the fighter they spend one on mage armor (so 3). At level 2 the fighter can burst for another d10+3 once per short rest...
At level 5 they’re up to 2d10+8. Which is 19 dmg/round. And they can burst for another 19 once/short rest. A wizard can drop fireball for 28 twice and is otherwise behind the fighter even spending slots. At 6 a fighter can have +5 to their primary stat...
first, "come online" is when a given build is effective at what you're building it to do. It's more than just damage. Secondly I would have thought that my not even mentioning damage would have indicated I wasn't considering that as a primary concern. Third you're assuming all fighters are using d10 weapons which is not the case.
No. Because you mentioned “all the spells” the wizard would get before then... which means that the thing you were measuring online against was not your core idea.
And since you are a fighter x anything then the online-ness of dmg is almost the only thing you could be talking about since fighter x has no almost no uility beyond dmg and so if you were talking about something else it doesn’t have to do much at all with the fighter MC
Also d10 is low for fighter average. Its a longsword used two handed. Its inefficient damage. Fighters would likely use a d8+2 for weapon dmg instead. Or 2d6 brutal 1
Fighters come online at level 1 even if you’re multi-classing. 1d10+3 is an average of 8.5 dmg. 1d10 is an average of 5.5. A 54% advantage. 3d6 (burning hands) is 10.5 average damage. A wizard gets 4 first level spells at level 1. And if they want to be half as tanky as the fighter they spend one on mage armor (so 3). At level 2 the fighter can burst for another d10+3 once per short rest...
At level 5 they’re up to 2d10+8. Which is 19 dmg/round. And they can burst for another 19 once/short rest. A wizard can drop fireball for 28 twice and is otherwise behind the fighter even spending slots. At 6 a fighter can have +5 to their primary stat...
first, "come online" is when a given build is effective at what you're building it to do. It's more than just damage. Secondly I would have thought that my not even mentioning damage would have indicated I wasn't considering that as a primary concern. Third you're assuming all fighters are using d10 weapons which is not the case.
No. Because you mentioned “all the spells” the wizard would get before then... which means that the thing you were measuring online against was not your core idea.
And since you are a fighter x anything then the online-ness of dmg is almost the only thing you could be talking about since fighter x has no almost no uility beyond dmg and so if you were talking about something else it doesn’t have to do much at all with the fighter MC
Also d10 is low for fighter average. Its a longsword used two handed. Its inefficient damage. Fighters would likely use a d8+2 for weapon dmg instead. Or 2d6 brutal 1
So you agree fighters suck.
what? No
Okay, then can you rephrase your argument? I don't think I understand the case you're trying to make
I'm just gonna retract the claim and bow out because I feel like I'm about to be told I play pretend elves wrong and I'm just not interested in having my hobby turned into one more thing I've fucked up in my life.
A fighting style, second wind, and action surge. It's pretty hard to beat.
Now that I think about it, that does seem hard to beat. +1 action per fight, when fights generally only last about three rounds, is kinda nuts. Could well be worth losing caster progression, even
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
A fighting style, second wind, and action surge. It's pretty hard to beat.
Now that I think about it, that does seem hard to beat. +1 action per fight, when fights generally only last about three rounds, is kinda nuts. Could well be worth losing caster progression, even
especially if you're not going to hit the top tier wizard stuff, makes a sword dancer much more versatile, especially if you rolled for stats hot.
Fighters come online at level 1 even if you’re multi-classing. 1d10+3 is an average of 8.5 dmg. 1d10 is an average of 5.5. A 54% advantage. 3d6 (burning hands) is 10.5 average damage. A wizard gets 4 first level spells at level 1. And if they want to be half as tanky as the fighter they spend one on mage armor (so 3). At level 2 the fighter can burst for another d10+3 once per short rest...
At level 5 they’re up to 2d10+8. Which is 19 dmg/round. And they can burst for another 19 once/short rest. A wizard can drop fireball for 28 twice and is otherwise behind the fighter even spending slots. At 6 a fighter can have +5 to their primary stat...
first, "come online" is when a given build is effective at what you're building it to do. It's more than just damage. Secondly I would have thought that my not even mentioning damage would have indicated I wasn't considering that as a primary concern. Third you're assuming all fighters are using d10 weapons which is not the case.
No. Because you mentioned “all the spells” the wizard would get before then... which means that the thing you were measuring online against was not your core idea.
And since you are a fighter x anything then the online-ness of dmg is almost the only thing you could be talking about since fighter x has no almost no uility beyond dmg and so if you were talking about something else it doesn’t have to do much at all with the fighter MC
Also d10 is low for fighter average. Its a longsword used two handed. Its inefficient damage. Fighters would likely use a d8+2 for weapon dmg instead. Or 2d6 brutal 1
So you agree fighters suck.
what? No
Okay, then can you rephrase your argument? I don't think I understand the case you're trying to make
Hexblade mentioned that he had played a specific fighter/hexblade build for a specific purpose.
You replied "Yeah I keep coming up with ideas like this, then my brain does the math to figure out what level it'll come on line at, then immediately starts listing off all the much more powerful spells that casters will have already had access to by then and I just"
If you define "online" as "when the build is complete" then this is nonsensical because all classes have progression. Even a pure fighter won't be "online" until they have all the feats they want. If you're building a non-human twitchy fighter who intends to pick up keen mind, observant, and alert you won't come "online" until level 8 at the most. So i kind of assumed that "online" meant "when it starts being effective in the game."
I assumed this also because the comparison you made was "all of the powerful spells that casters will have already" and figured that comparing a specific level of "onlineness" as determined by when a specific combo or build complete to a generic "all the powerful spells that casters have" doesn't make sense in that other context. A wizard isn't "online" until they have those powerful spells either so if your wizard concept is one that casts move earth then you're going to have to wait until level 11 to be "online".
So i went for the thing that makes the fighter a fighter and explained that the fighter was always "online" in that they're always effective at doing the thing they're good at doing right from level 1. Because the fighter is always "online" there is no wait time for multi-classes to come online unless you're mixing your MC such that you achieve the level5 breakpoint significantly later than normal AND don't have a cantrip attack spell.
Edit: this is a bit late but i don't intend for this post as an attempt to draw you back in to the conversation or as an any sort of attack but just explaining my reasoning for what I posted.
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Zonugal(He/Him) The Holiday ArmadilloI'm Santa's representative for all the southern states. And Mexico!Registered Userregular
A fighting style, second wind, and action surge. It's pretty hard to beat.
Here's the fun kicker on the flipside, a two level dip into War Wizard is a stupid good option for a Fighter.
A few cantrips, access to an expandable spellbook, access to 1st-level rituals, and whenever you're hit by an attack or fail a saving throw, your character can gain a +2 bonus to their AC against the attack or a +4 bonus to that saving throw with their reaction.
A fighting style, second wind, and action surge. It's pretty hard to beat.
Here's the fun kicker on the flipside, a two level dip into War Wizard is a stupid good option for a Fighter.
A few cantrips, access to an expandable spellbook, access to 1st-level rituals, and whenever you're hit by an attack or fail a saving throw, your character can gain a +2 bonus to their AC against the attack or a +4 bonus to that saving throw with their reaction.
Stupid. Good.
Also, Int mod to initiative, which is nothing to sneeze at
An update to my CoS game earlier this week. Session went fine, fun was had. New party formed by the mists grabbing random peoples across the mulit-verse now has conflict how over the handling of the priests son in the basement of the church. So, you know, working as intended.
The best part though is that when we met Ismark and soon after Ireena and got the introductions and learned that Ismark is the Burgomeister's son, one of the players says, "So, can we call you Whopper Junior?" And oh, how we laughed and laughed and laughed.
My take on fighters is that they are hands down the most versatile class in the entire game in terms of what they can be; you might think that it's wizard since you can have the entire spell list at your disposal allowing you to make reality your bitch, but you'd be wrong since pretty much every wizard is going to wind up in the same spot at level 20 with the only real variation being the tradition you pick at level 2 changing what side bonuses you have and that might change what spells you cast to make reality your bitch.
By comparison, fighters are absurdly variable in terms of what they can be; vikings, winged hussars, rajput, samurai, welsh long bowman, Centurion, aztec eagle warriors... all wildly different from each other and all are perfectly capable of being credibly re-created by a player with a bit of effort and imagination.
As to utility: the fighter has access to more advancements then any other class in the game at a whopping 7, which means that you can easily snag various feats to buff up your capabilities.
My take on fighters is that they are hands down the most versatile class in the entire game in terms of what they can be; you might think that it's wizard since you can have the entire spell list at your disposal allowing you to make reality your bitch, but you'd be wrong since pretty much every wizard is going to wind up in the same spot at level 20 with the only real variation being the tradition you pick at level 2 changing what side bonuses you have and that might change what spells you cast to make reality your bitch.
By comparison, fighters are absurdly variable in terms of what they can be; vikings, winged hussars, rajput, samurai, welsh long bowman, Centurion, aztec eagle warriors... all wildly different from each other and all are perfectly capable of being credibly re-created by a player with a bit of effort and imagination.
As to utility: the fighter has access to more advancements then any other class in the game at a whopping 7, which means that you can easily snag various feats to buff up your capabilities.
Genuine question:
What is the mechanical difference between those different types of historical warriors when they're represented in the form of a D&D 5E Fighter, and how is it so far beyond the differences between say a necromancer, summoner, and an evoker that have different spell lists?
A fighting style, second wind, and action surge. It's pretty hard to beat.
Here's the fun kicker on the flipside, a two level dip into War Wizard is a stupid good option for a Fighter.
A few cantrips, access to an expandable spellbook, access to 1st-level rituals, and whenever you're hit by an attack or fail a saving throw, your character can gain a +2 bonus to their AC against the attack or a +4 bonus to that saving throw with their reaction.
Stupid. Good.
Also, Int mod to initiative, which is nothing to sneeze at
Nah. You drop a feat for it at almost every space of fighter progression which could go to alert. Or ritual caster or magic initiate.
The war mage reaction is the only really good pickup.
My take on fighters is that they are hands down the most versatile class in the entire game in terms of what they can be; you might think that it's wizard since you can have the entire spell list at your disposal allowing you to make reality your bitch, but you'd be wrong since pretty much every wizard is going to wind up in the same spot at level 20 with the only real variation being the tradition you pick at level 2 changing what side bonuses you have and that might change what spells you cast to make reality your bitch.
By comparison, fighters are absurdly variable in terms of what they can be; vikings, winged hussars, rajput, samurai, welsh long bowman, Centurion, aztec eagle warriors... all wildly different from each other and all are perfectly capable of being credibly re-created by a player with a bit of effort and imagination.
As to utility: the fighter has access to more advancements then any other class in the game at a whopping 7, which means that you can easily snag various feats to buff up your capabilities.
Genuine question:
What is the mechanical difference between those different types of historical warriors when they're represented in the form of a D&D 5E Fighter, and how is it so far beyond the differences between say a necromancer, summoner, and an evoker that have different spell lists?
Different weapons have a very significant effect on how you approach the battlefield. We could probably break them up into three different types. TWF, Sword/Board, Two Handed, Ranged. This gives you four different types before you start stacking on feats. A fighter that starts with 16 strength will make it to 20 strength by level 6. And so will have 5 free feats to take. A fighter that starts at 17 strength gets another "half feat" that also increases their strength. (or they can 1 and 1 and up another stat with their half-feat later).
There are a LOT of feats that are really good for fighters and they tend to be more varied than spells in terms of how your characters themes turn out. At the very least there are about 50 non-race restricted feats of which you can choose 5.
If we look at spells there are about 18 spells at each the 6-9th level that a wizard can take and they will get around 4 of each as they progress through them. 18c5 is about 3060. 50c5 is about 2.1 million. But if we ignore combinations that get the same spell/feat these fall dramatically. And fall dramatically for wizards even more because there are multiple points of spell overlap possibility at each spell level. The probability that any given wizard will have spell overlap with another is much higher than the probability a fighter will have feat overlap with another unless either has similar theming.
I'd like to offer a counter opinion to Go you, minus dong:
We don't really have RL equivalents to mages and thus I find the historical comparison a little uncharitable.
Just looking at the armed forces, if you aren't on the field shooting peoplea gun monkey then you could be a communications officer, an engineer, a mechanic, Cyber-Ops etc.
And even though you might use the same tools your goals and day to day are different.
Mechnically, you used to have restrictions in the spells you could learn; evocation and abjuration were mutally exclusive, for example. We can also define different roles for casters:
blasters, nukers, CC specialists, support.
And although calculating the different setups is nice, the same cookie cutter logic applies to martials: GWM, PAM & SS are your go-tos and everything else is ketchup.
A fighting style, second wind, and action surge. It's pretty hard to beat.
Here's the fun kicker on the flipside, a two level dip into War Wizard is a stupid good option for a Fighter.
A few cantrips, access to an expandable spellbook, access to 1st-level rituals, and whenever you're hit by an attack or fail a saving throw, your character can gain a +2 bonus to their AC against the attack or a +4 bonus to that saving throw with their reaction.
Stupid. Good.
Also, Int mod to initiative, which is nothing to sneeze at
Nah. You drop a feat for it at almost every space of fighter progression which could go to alert. Or ritual caster or magic initiate.
The war mage reaction is the only really good pickup.
It also gives you the ability to attune wizard exclusive items and if you every pick up a third level in it, you get some pretty incredibly good second level spells
but IMO eldritch knight/war wizard is one of the most solid gish classes in 5e
I'd like to offer a counter opinion to Go you, minus dong:
We don't really have RL equivalents to mages and thus I find the historical comparison a little uncharitable.
Just looking at the armed forces, if you aren't on the field shooting peoplea gun monkey then you could be a communications officer, an engineer, a mechanic, Cyber-Ops etc.
And even though you might use the same tools your goals and day to day are different.
Mechnically, you used to have restrictions in the spells you could learn; evocation and abjuration were mutally exclusive, for example. We can also define different roles for casters:
blasters, nukers, CC specialists, support.
And although calculating the different setups is nice, the same cookie cutter logic applies to martials: GWM, PAM & SS are your go-tos and everything else is ketchup.
Well the short answer is that fighters have all that variation within a single subclass. EKs have all the fighter variation plus spell variation.. BMs have maneuver variation... champions have... shit; well no one will argue that champions suck. But their variation is still as high or higher than wizards solely on their feat differentiation.
And your defined differences... Aren’t. Saying your a Blaster does not prevent you from picking up CC spells. But wielding a particular type of weapon does prevent you from performing like a different kind of fighter. You cannot effectively be attuned to multiple weapons at once. You will never be a focus damage like a ranged fighter if you’re two handed. You will never be as focused on control as a two hander if you’re TWF. You will never be as tanky as sword and board as a two handed etc. You will never be able to do as much spread damage as a two hander as TWF. Etc.
But for a wizard you’re going to swap roles like that simply by casting a different spell. You’re not limited in what you do next round by what you used in the first.
Also a nuker is another name for a Blaster... they’re the same focus.
My take on fighters is that they are hands down the most versatile class in the entire game in terms of what they can be; you might think that it's wizard since you can have the entire spell list at your disposal allowing you to make reality your bitch, but you'd be wrong since pretty much every wizard is going to wind up in the same spot at level 20 with the only real variation being the tradition you pick at level 2 changing what side bonuses you have and that might change what spells you cast to make reality your bitch.
By comparison, fighters are absurdly variable in terms of what they can be; vikings, winged hussars, rajput, samurai, welsh long bowman, Centurion, aztec eagle warriors... all wildly different from each other and all are perfectly capable of being credibly re-created by a player with a bit of effort and imagination.
Alternatively, you can think of spells as abilities/ways of fighting (which they are), in which case a level 20 Wizard is all of those subclasses and more, and they get to pick which one (or combination of) they want to be each morning.
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I'd disagree with any claim that all wizards play more-or-less the same as compared to fighters.
A lot of the wizard subclasses? Yeah, their features offer no considerable difference in how you're likely to approach a situation (abjurer & diviner come to mind).
But a blade-singer wizard and an illusionist wizard ultimately don't play the same.
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That's fair. I've never played 4E, but whenever i do hear it talked about "Warlord" is at the top of the list of why 4e was fucking good.
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re: drow not necessarily EVIL heavy spoilers, wizards deffo going another direction with the race as the lore progresses
The lie was that Lolth herself does not care. She hasn't cared in a long while, her original caring being warped by the rituals of her followers over the millenia. Now she is an aspect of chaos, she cares only that their society continue and changes happen, and she herself can be changed. Lolth, of all beings, can be redeemed.
using this revelation they attempted something that is supposed to be impossible: they turned a Drider back into a drow. Everyone is tought that only Lolth can do that and any priestess who tried would be turned into one herself
convincing this to the rest of them seemed impossible, so at the 11th hour, just before an enormous civil war kicked off, they turned every drider back into a dark elf - an act that only the goddess should be able to do, being enacted by those who openly decry the teachings of lolth
it's not a peaceful ending, the civil war was delayed, the "devout" hardly accept this new reality, but now their society is split, and the truth is known to those who wish to hear it.
"We will turn our city back into what it was supposed to be. "Menzoberranzan: sanctuary. That is what the city's name meant in the old tongue, even that truth lost to us, considered heresy to speak aloud. We walked there defeated, finding a place where we could have freedom, our goddess led us to that place... she wasn't called Lolth then, she used to love song and dance and beauty and freedom most of all. Our despair turned to joy, a hundred families had survived, and a hundred families made this place their home. We didn't even like spiders back then. We were refugees from a war of our making, and we just wanted safety.
Over thousands of years of building traditions and rules, each priestess who got a measure of divine power asserting her superiority over the others... layer upon layer, the lights in our hearts went out, war after war, compromise after compromise... at some point we started beating that light out of our children...
With the former driders joining us, each one now knowing the truth of the spider queen, we will try our way back to that place. We will have to pay a great price as a people... this truth will not be accepted by many... but I hope that most will, those under the boots of unreasonable matron mothers... only time will tell"
paraphrased
I really want a published module that takes place after this book, I really want to play in the city of spiders (or, hopefully, the city of sanctuary) post 1490DR... things are going to get very interesting there
A truth and reconciliation of the worshipers of Lolth is something that'd been a long time coming
Sure thing. I almost exclusively post on mobile so I never know how big something ends up being on a computer screen.
My second 5E character was a Battle Master Fighter/Hexblade Warlock primarily so I could inflict as much forced movement as possible. Had the most recent Unearthed Arcana article been a thing back then I would have taken Tandem Tactician and Crusher. The latter feat alone has raised my interest in playing a monk by a significant degree.
Yeah I keep coming up with ideas like this, then my brain does the math to figure out what level it'll come on line at, then immediately starts listing off all the much more powerful spells that casters will have already had access to by then and I just
At level 5 they’re up to 2d10+8. Which is 19 dmg/round. And they can burst for another 19 once/short rest. A wizard can drop fireball for 28 twice and is otherwise behind the fighter even spending slots. At 6 a fighter can have +5 to their primary stat...
first, "come online" is when a given build is effective at what you're building it to do. It's more than just damage. Secondly I would have thought that my not even mentioning damage would have indicated I wasn't considering that as a primary concern. Third you're assuming all fighters are using d10 weapons which is not the case.
Cresting Waves is especially fun in that you conjure multuple waves that can individually push targets different directions.
For example, Cloud of Daggers, Hunger of Hadar, Wall of Fire etc... .
Forced movement doesn't trigger attacks of opportunity, as I understand it. So using Eldritch Blast to move an enemy past your fighter isn't going to get them stabbed.
But, if you force someone into a cube of spinning, lacerating, death, does that damage occur on their turn since they're starting the turn in the affect, or are they immune since it was forced movement that put them there?
I've always ruled that forced movement into a zone triggers the zone's effects, unless the zone says otherwise. That seems like RAW and RAI to me. So in the case of Cloud of Daggers, they would take the damage when the were forced in, and they would take it when they start their turn there.
I think 4E had a rule that allowed a saving throw if a target would be forced into something damaging so that they could instead drop prone just before the damaging thing, but I don't remember 5E having that. And if it did there'd be a big question about which save it would be.
If you cast Cloud of Daggers onto an enemy, it does not take the damage until its turn, because it didn't enter the spell's area
If you, say, quicken spelled Cloud of Daggers and shoved an enemy into it, it would take the damage immediately, and the again on its turn
If you had your party stand around an enemy and on each of their turns pull it out of the daggers and push it back in, it would just keep getting shredded
No. Because you mentioned “all the spells” the wizard would get before then... which means that the thing you were measuring online against was not your core idea.
And since you are a fighter x anything then the online-ness of dmg is almost the only thing you could be talking about since fighter x has no almost no uility beyond dmg and so if you were talking about something else it doesn’t have to do much at all with the fighter MC
Also d10 is low for fighter average. Its a longsword used two handed. Its inefficient damage. Fighters would likely use a d8+2 for weapon dmg instead. Or 2d6 brutal 1
So you agree fighters suck.
This just sounds like a woodchipper with extra steps.
what? No
Okay, then can you rephrase your argument? I don't think I understand the case you're trying to make
but fighters are sick ass damage dealers and a level 2 fighter multiclass is not bad for literally any build
A fighting style, second wind, and action surge. It's pretty hard to beat.
Now that I think about it, that does seem hard to beat. +1 action per fight, when fights generally only last about three rounds, is kinda nuts. Could well be worth losing caster progression, even
especially if you're not going to hit the top tier wizard stuff, makes a sword dancer much more versatile, especially if you rolled for stats hot.
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Hexblade mentioned that he had played a specific fighter/hexblade build for a specific purpose.
You replied "Yeah I keep coming up with ideas like this, then my brain does the math to figure out what level it'll come on line at, then immediately starts listing off all the much more powerful spells that casters will have already had access to by then and I just"
If you define "online" as "when the build is complete" then this is nonsensical because all classes have progression. Even a pure fighter won't be "online" until they have all the feats they want. If you're building a non-human twitchy fighter who intends to pick up keen mind, observant, and alert you won't come "online" until level 8 at the most. So i kind of assumed that "online" meant "when it starts being effective in the game."
I assumed this also because the comparison you made was "all of the powerful spells that casters will have already" and figured that comparing a specific level of "onlineness" as determined by when a specific combo or build complete to a generic "all the powerful spells that casters have" doesn't make sense in that other context. A wizard isn't "online" until they have those powerful spells either so if your wizard concept is one that casts move earth then you're going to have to wait until level 11 to be "online".
So i went for the thing that makes the fighter a fighter and explained that the fighter was always "online" in that they're always effective at doing the thing they're good at doing right from level 1. Because the fighter is always "online" there is no wait time for multi-classes to come online unless you're mixing your MC such that you achieve the level5 breakpoint significantly later than normal AND don't have a cantrip attack spell.
Edit: this is a bit late but i don't intend for this post as an attempt to draw you back in to the conversation or as an any sort of attack but just explaining my reasoning for what I posted.
Here's the fun kicker on the flipside, a two level dip into War Wizard is a stupid good option for a Fighter.
A few cantrips, access to an expandable spellbook, access to 1st-level rituals, and whenever you're hit by an attack or fail a saving throw, your character can gain a +2 bonus to their AC against the attack or a +4 bonus to that saving throw with their reaction.
Stupid. Good.
Also, Int mod to initiative, which is nothing to sneeze at
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The best part though is that when we met Ismark and soon after Ireena and got the introductions and learned that Ismark is the Burgomeister's son, one of the players says, "So, can we call you Whopper Junior?" And oh, how we laughed and laughed and laughed.
I'm pretty sure our DM is going to kill us.
My take on fighters is that they are hands down the most versatile class in the entire game in terms of what they can be; you might think that it's wizard since you can have the entire spell list at your disposal allowing you to make reality your bitch, but you'd be wrong since pretty much every wizard is going to wind up in the same spot at level 20 with the only real variation being the tradition you pick at level 2 changing what side bonuses you have and that might change what spells you cast to make reality your bitch.
By comparison, fighters are absurdly variable in terms of what they can be; vikings, winged hussars, rajput, samurai, welsh long bowman, Centurion, aztec eagle warriors... all wildly different from each other and all are perfectly capable of being credibly re-created by a player with a bit of effort and imagination.
As to utility: the fighter has access to more advancements then any other class in the game at a whopping 7, which means that you can easily snag various feats to buff up your capabilities.
Genuine question:
What is the mechanical difference between those different types of historical warriors when they're represented in the form of a D&D 5E Fighter, and how is it so far beyond the differences between say a necromancer, summoner, and an evoker that have different spell lists?
Nah. You drop a feat for it at almost every space of fighter progression which could go to alert. Or ritual caster or magic initiate.
The war mage reaction is the only really good pickup.
Different weapons have a very significant effect on how you approach the battlefield. We could probably break them up into three different types. TWF, Sword/Board, Two Handed, Ranged. This gives you four different types before you start stacking on feats. A fighter that starts with 16 strength will make it to 20 strength by level 6. And so will have 5 free feats to take. A fighter that starts at 17 strength gets another "half feat" that also increases their strength. (or they can 1 and 1 and up another stat with their half-feat later).
There are a LOT of feats that are really good for fighters and they tend to be more varied than spells in terms of how your characters themes turn out. At the very least there are about 50 non-race restricted feats of which you can choose 5.
If we look at spells there are about 18 spells at each the 6-9th level that a wizard can take and they will get around 4 of each as they progress through them. 18c5 is about 3060. 50c5 is about 2.1 million. But if we ignore combinations that get the same spell/feat these fall dramatically. And fall dramatically for wizards even more because there are multiple points of spell overlap possibility at each spell level. The probability that any given wizard will have spell overlap with another is much higher than the probability a fighter will have feat overlap with another unless either has similar theming.
We don't really have RL equivalents to mages and thus I find the historical comparison a little uncharitable.
Just looking at the armed forces, if you aren't on the field shooting people a gun monkey then you could be a communications officer, an engineer, a mechanic, Cyber-Ops etc.
And even though you might use the same tools your goals and day to day are different.
Mechnically, you used to have restrictions in the spells you could learn; evocation and abjuration were mutally exclusive, for example. We can also define different roles for casters:
blasters, nukers, CC specialists, support.
And although calculating the different setups is nice, the same cookie cutter logic applies to martials: GWM, PAM & SS are your go-tos and everything else is ketchup.
It also gives you the ability to attune wizard exclusive items and if you every pick up a third level in it, you get some pretty incredibly good second level spells
but IMO eldritch knight/war wizard is one of the most solid gish classes in 5e
Well the short answer is that fighters have all that variation within a single subclass. EKs have all the fighter variation plus spell variation.. BMs have maneuver variation... champions have... shit; well no one will argue that champions suck. But their variation is still as high or higher than wizards solely on their feat differentiation.
And your defined differences... Aren’t. Saying your a Blaster does not prevent you from picking up CC spells. But wielding a particular type of weapon does prevent you from performing like a different kind of fighter. You cannot effectively be attuned to multiple weapons at once. You will never be a focus damage like a ranged fighter if you’re two handed. You will never be as focused on control as a two hander if you’re TWF. You will never be as tanky as sword and board as a two handed etc. You will never be able to do as much spread damage as a two hander as TWF. Etc.
But for a wizard you’re going to swap roles like that simply by casting a different spell. You’re not limited in what you do next round by what you used in the first.
Also a nuker is another name for a Blaster... they’re the same focus.
A lot of the wizard subclasses? Yeah, their features offer no considerable difference in how you're likely to approach a situation (abjurer & diviner come to mind).
But a blade-singer wizard and an illusionist wizard ultimately don't play the same.
cast at 9th level they can create a 25 foot tall lava golem that they can make rampage around as an action
sadly not, illusory reality has way too many restrictions
"one inanimate non magical object...
...the object cannot cause damage or directly harm anyone."
So you can't even drop an illusory anvil on someone, it's basically only useful for bridges and prisons
Malleable illusion combined with the creation spell is the real star of an illusionist
it's hilariously bad considering you can't even make arrows that can do damage with it, but the 1st level spell shape water can