DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
After doing some more build research I really REALLY hope they open up the levels a bit more.
10 feels so very restrictive especially for multi-classing.
It feels like when looking at the break points you'd be getting into the interesting stuff way too late in the game.
Just a few extra levels opens things up so much more.
13, 14 heck even 15 would still leave room for an expansion later.
And they did say they have not fully locked down that level cap so here's hoping.
level 10 feels like I spend the whole 100+ hour campaign just getting my characters ready for whatever comes next some unknown time in the future. Which would't feel super great.
And considering how long this game sounds to be it's something most players will problem be running through for a well over a month if not a few. So peppering in a few more milestones goes a long way to helping progression feel good.
They are not allowing multiclassing iirc from that stream a month ago
The last quote I can find is this:
“Multiclassing rule will follow closely the 5e DnD,” Vincke said. “On level up characters will be able to continue with their current class or choose a new class, provided they meet the requirements.”
From just a few months ago.
I tried googling for anything about it being removed and didn't see it.
Maybe it was something misheard or maybe they were talking about early access?
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
Yea they were just talking about Early Access. Not the actual game. Multiclass rules are the same as PnP for the actual game(so far)
I finally completed Baulder's Gate: Seige of DragonSpear.
Full disclosure, I played the game on easy so I didn't really have to battle with the old DnD system.
It's excellent, and even better if you pick it up in a sale. Massive bang for your buck.
Spoiler:
Fucking christ that ending though. Framed for murder and then kidnapped. I bet its to do with that absolute bellend in the robe who keeps turning up to insult me.
I finally completed Baulder's Gate: Seige of DragonSpear.
Full disclosure, I played the game on easy so I didn't really have to battle with the old DnD system.
It's excellent, and even better if you pick it up in a sale. Massive bang for your buck.
Spoiler:
Fucking christ that ending though. Framed for murder and then kidnapped. I bet its to do with that absolute bellend in the robe who keeps turning up to insult me.
I finally completed Baulder's Gate: Seige of DragonSpear.
Full disclosure, I played the game on easy so I didn't really have to battle with the old DnD system.
It's excellent, and even better if you pick it up in a sale. Massive bang for your buck.
Spoiler:
Fucking christ that ending though. Framed for murder and then kidnapped. I bet its to do with that absolute bellend in the robe who keeps turning up to insult me.
It's odd. They've shown a lot of what's going to be in the early access content-wise, but they've been pretty cagey about character options. For classes they've mentioned fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard, warlock, and I think ranger? But we haven't heard anything about bards, sorcerers, monks, druids, barbarians, or paladins. We haven't seen any half-orcs or dragonborn either.
I've got the feeling that part of things might be a bit sparse when the early access launches.
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
It's odd. They've shown a lot of what's going to be in the early access content-wise, but they've been pretty cagey about character options. For classes they've mentioned fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard, warlock, and I think ranger? But we haven't heard anything about bards, sorcerers, monks, druids, barbarians, or paladins. We haven't seen any half-orcs or dragonborn either.
I've got the feeling that part of things might be a bit sparse when the early access launches.
The other classes will come during the course of early access. As well more races.
They have said all the classes will be in by launch.
edit- I will be passing on EA for now, though please note that I am only doing that because I'll have my plate full with so many other games.
Axen on
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
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AegisFear My DanceOvershot Toronto, Landed in OttawaRegistered Userregular
Have they talked much about subclass options for each class?
Just a few extra levels opens things up so much more.
13, 14 heck even 15 would still leave room for an expansion later.
As a pen and paper player who loves optimizing, I completely agree. But I also think that levels 1-10 should play substantially different from 11-20. You've got exotic transportation, powerful contacts, the resources to build, and the clout to command. I'm fine with 11-20 being a sequel, I just hope they do both scales justice.
There was no shortage of content in Baldur's Gate 1 + TotSC and the level cap was level 10 for Druids, Bards and Thieves, Mages could only hit level 9 and everyone else was limited to level 8.
Looking at the campaigns that Wizards has published for 5e in the last 5 years, they go from 1-12 or so. Dungeon of the Mad Mage is the only thing that goes all the way to 20. And those things can take pen-and-paper groups months to run.
You’ve got to keep in mind that the sort of exotic transportation, building resources, and stuff that players expect out of high level campaigns require the design of entire new systems. And scenario design to account for things like “what if they just teleport inside the Big Bad’s asshole?”
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
Well that's why I say just a few more levels. Not all the way to 20(though I personally would prefer it but I understand here). Gotta leave room for an expansion.
They have already shown that they are making adjustments to go from PnP to a video game. It's not 1 to 1 so there's no reason to apply that stuff 1 to 1 either.
And the sort of campaign they've shown so far is already dealing with some pretty big stuff, so characters getting to slightly higher levels to actually deal with it makes sense.
I also think the BG1 example isn't great because yea, that level cap felt horrible to me. Combat took forever to start to feel even remotely interesting and it ended with my characters feeling like they just started to actually get abilities. Options in combat were very limited for way too much of that game. That is the exact thing I am worried about.
In Critical Role the characters are level 12 right now and playing 5e. Combat definitely does not seem to be broken overpowered yet and still feels really good so it seems like it can still be pretty reasonable with a few more levels.
I wouldn't use Critical Role as a yardstick for determining balance. I haven't listened to much but I'm given to understand that they aren't the strictest adherents to optimal combat performance, and consequently the DM makes things a lot easier.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
I wouldn't use Critical Role as a yardstick for determining balance. I haven't listened to much but I'm given to understand that they aren't the strictest adherents to optimal combat performance, and consequently the DM makes things a lot easier.
Again though, this game is not beholden to strictly following the rules either.
So the example show that you can use the 5e rules to make it totally work.
I also think the BG1 example isn't great because yea, that level cap felt horrible to me. Combat took forever to start to feel even remotely interesting and it ended with my characters feeling like they just started to actually get abilities. Options in combat were very limited for way too much of that game. That is the exact thing I am worried about.
I think that's less about the BG1 level cap as such, and more about how boring power distribution is in 2nd Ed AD&D. At low levels, your options are "hit it with a stick" or "hit it with a small flying stick". If you're a mage, your options are "hit it with one (1) spell and then hit it with a stick". You're definitely right that the low level cap does mean that you never make it into higher levels, where you get more varied and interesting combat options (like the fighter's "hit it with a stick a little bit better"), but like... the combat options should just have been fun to begin with. BG2 works around that by skipping the early levels, but that's the same as starting-at-level-1-but-making-level-1-be-fun.
Now, from what I understand, lower levels in 5th Ed have more options and flexibility than 2nd Ed, so this might be less of a factor in BG3.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
I also think the BG1 example isn't great because yea, that level cap felt horrible to me. Combat took forever to start to feel even remotely interesting and it ended with my characters feeling like they just started to actually get abilities. Options in combat were very limited for way too much of that game. That is the exact thing I am worried about.
I think that's less about the BG1 level cap as such, and more about how boring power distribution is in 2nd Ed AD&D. At low levels, your options are "hit it with a stick" or "hit it with a small flying stick". If you're a mage, your options are "hit it with one (1) spell and then hit it with a stick". You're definitely right that the low level cap does mean that you never make it into higher levels, where you get more varied and interesting combat options (like the fighter's "hit it with a stick a little bit better"), but like... the combat options should just have been fun to begin with. BG2 works around that by skipping the early levels, but that's the same as starting-at-level-1-but-making-level-1-be-fun.
Now, from what I understand, lower levels in 5th Ed have more options and flexibility than 2nd Ed, so this might be less of a factor in BG3.
Oh yea I agree there.
Comparing a completely different system also doesn't work super well. Either way BG1 is not a great example to use for this.
I also think the BG1 example isn't great because yea, that level cap felt horrible to me. Combat took forever to start to feel even remotely interesting and it ended with my characters feeling like they just started to actually get abilities. Options in combat were very limited for way too much of that game. That is the exact thing I am worried about.
I think that's less about the BG1 level cap as such, and more about how boring power distribution is in 2nd Ed AD&D. At low levels, your options are "hit it with a stick" or "hit it with a small flying stick". If you're a mage, your options are "hit it with one (1) spell and then hit it with a stick". You're definitely right that the low level cap does mean that you never make it into higher levels, where you get more varied and interesting combat options (like the fighter's "hit it with a stick a little bit better"), but like... the combat options should just have been fun to begin with. BG2 works around that by skipping the early levels, but that's the same as starting-at-level-1-but-making-level-1-be-fun.
Now, from what I understand, lower levels in 5th Ed have more options and flexibility than 2nd Ed, so this might be less of a factor in BG3.
Well i mean most tactics for levels 1-10 are cast Sleep and proceed to kill the enemies in a most cowardly fashion.
But yeah, most would agree that the game really starts at level five. It's when all the options start opening up for each class.
I wouldn't use Critical Role as a yardstick for determining balance. I haven't listened to much but I'm given to understand that they aren't the strictest adherents to optimal combat performance, and consequently the DM makes things a lot easier.
Don't think this is accurate. In season 1 they're coming from Pathfinder, so the DM allows a lot of magic items and rules to carry over that makes the players overpowered. He balances this by buffing encounters a lot
In season 2 they follow the rules more strictly, but the DM still buffs monsters and encounters because they're 7 player characters
Agree not to use it as a yardstick, but I'd say Matt Mercer makes things harder more than he makes things easier
As individual characters things can get interesting past level 10, but for games like Baldur's Gate where you control an entire party things start to get tedious past level 10. I've done a number of Baldur's Gate playthroughs and yet I've only ever beaten Throne of Bhaal once because the fights just get tiresome and I stop playing. There's just too many abilities and spells to mess with at the higher levels when dealing with a whole party.
There's definitely a knowledge burden that kicks in, yeah. I felt it really hard in Pathfinder:Kingmaker, but that system piles on the character options in a way that D&D 5E doesn't.
In paper, I really only have to worry about my own guy's build. But in a game like this I have to worry about my character, and the 3 other folks in my part, plus whoever's hanging back at camp that I might want to take out at some point.
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DemonStaceyTTODewback's DaughterIn love with the TaySwayRegistered Userregular
As individual characters things can get interesting past level 10, but for games like Baldur's Gate where you control an entire party things start to get tedious past level 10. I've done a number of Baldur's Gate playthroughs and yet I've only ever beaten Throne of Bhaal once because the fights just get tiresome and I stop playing. There's just too many abilities and spells to mess with at the higher levels when dealing with a whole party.
I would note here as well that this is a turn-based game and has a party of only 4 characters so they already have much less fiddly micro-management involved. And thus having each character be able to do more would feel a lot better. Passing through low impact turns for too many hours is usually not ideal.
I also think the BG1 example isn't great because yea, that level cap felt horrible to me. Combat took forever to start to feel even remotely interesting and it ended with my characters feeling like they just started to actually get abilities. Options in combat were very limited for way too much of that game. That is the exact thing I am worried about.
I think that's less about the BG1 level cap as such, and more about how boring power distribution is in 2nd Ed AD&D. At low levels, your options are "hit it with a stick" or "hit it with a small flying stick". If you're a mage, your options are "hit it with one (1) spell and then hit it with a stick". You're definitely right that the low level cap does mean that you never make it into higher levels, where you get more varied and interesting combat options (like the fighter's "hit it with a stick a little bit better"), but like... the combat options should just have been fun to begin with. BG2 works around that by skipping the early levels, but that's the same as starting-at-level-1-but-making-level-1-be-fun.
Now, from what I understand, lower levels in 5th Ed have more options and flexibility than 2nd Ed, so this might be less of a factor in BG3.
I just know starting as a mage sucks in bg1. Why ive never finished it.
I wouldn't use Critical Role as a yardstick for determining balance. I haven't listened to much but I'm given to understand that they aren't the strictest adherents to optimal combat performance, and consequently the DM makes things a lot easier.
Don't think this is accurate. In season 1 they're coming from Pathfinder, so the DM allows a lot of magic items and rules to carry over that makes the players overpowered. He balances this by buffing encounters a lot
In season 2 they follow the rules more strictly, but the DM still buffs monsters and encounters because they're 7 player characters
Agree not to use it as a yardstick, but I'd say Matt Mercer makes things harder more than he makes things easier
I remember listening to the early episodes of Campaign 2 not having tuned in for the original, and I was kind of gobsmacked by the encounters Matt was throwing at his players. They regularly got mollywhomped most fights, and usually only won by the skin of their teeth or fudged dice on Matt's end.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Has Larian (or some reliable leaker) said when BGIII will become available for purchase? I know the EA date on Steam is Sept. 30. Presumably one can buy it before then, right?
I always thought it was funny how BG1 tries to clobber you at the beginning by that guy attacking you at the inn.
Tarnesh! That guy must have so much blood on his hands. He'd just start blasting his 5th level Magic Missiles at twerps with single-digit hit points. Gods damned slaughter!!
Contemplate this on the Tree of Woe
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
I always thought it was funny how BG1 tries to clobber you at the beginning by that guy attacking you at the inn.
Tarnesh! That guy must have so much blood on his hands. He'd just start blasting his 5th level Magic Missiles at twerps with single-digit hit points. Gods damned slaughter!!
This is probably why they made the canon Bhaalspawn a fighter. You gotta have d10 HD and a high Con to have realistic chance of surviving that fight without save scumming.
One of my most amusing playthroughs was with a normal weapon immune lycanthrope of some druidic bent.
I made a point of murdering anyone with magic weapons first.
Sometimes discovering who had a magic weapon was a bit painful.
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited September 2020
one of the nice things about pathfinder kingmaker is that u can literally just set "damage taken" to like 0.2 if u want to ignore rng deaths early game and then just turn it to normal once ur level 3 or whatever
and actually nice use of the difficulty sliders
i am however a little unsure how they are going to address having dice roll (non-combat) events in a game that presumably does have quick save and quick load because... in tabletop sure theres a real sense of finality and stakes but if u fail a skill test u dont like failing and u can just load its just like make it deterministic and remove the temptation - or add it as a toggle
I hope they go the Disco Elysium route and make it so failures end up in a different, unexpected, situation. That's how that game avoided save scumming.
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In most Experience Inc. dungeon crawlers you assign voices to created party members...
It's been done since Wiz 8.
// Switch: SW-5306-0651-6424 //
10 feels so very restrictive especially for multi-classing.
It feels like when looking at the break points you'd be getting into the interesting stuff way too late in the game.
Just a few extra levels opens things up so much more.
13, 14 heck even 15 would still leave room for an expansion later.
And they did say they have not fully locked down that level cap so here's hoping.
level 10 feels like I spend the whole 100+ hour campaign just getting my characters ready for whatever comes next some unknown time in the future. Which would't feel super great.
And considering how long this game sounds to be it's something most players will problem be running through for a well over a month if not a few. So peppering in a few more milestones goes a long way to helping progression feel good.
The last quote I can find is this:
From just a few months ago.
I tried googling for anything about it being removed and didn't see it.
Maybe it was something misheard or maybe they were talking about early access?
@Smrtnik @Shadowhope
Full disclosure, I played the game on easy so I didn't really have to battle with the old DnD system.
It's excellent, and even better if you pick it up in a sale. Massive bang for your buck.
Spoiler:
Do you have BG2?
I do
It's on the list to get to eventually.
My biggest takeaway (besides the fun little details) was that if EA goes to level 4 that definitely leaves room for the campaign to go higher than 10.
Crossing my fingers!
EA?
Edit: nvm, found it
I've got the feeling that part of things might be a bit sparse when the early access launches.
The other classes will come during the course of early access. As well more races.
They have said all the classes will be in by launch.
edit- I will be passing on EA for now, though please note that I am only doing that because I'll have my plate full with so many other games.
Currently DMing: None
Characters
[5e] Dural Melairkyn - AC 18 | HP 40 | Melee +5/1d8+3 | Spell +4/DC 12
As a pen and paper player who loves optimizing, I completely agree. But I also think that levels 1-10 should play substantially different from 11-20. You've got exotic transportation, powerful contacts, the resources to build, and the clout to command. I'm fine with 11-20 being a sequel, I just hope they do both scales justice.
You’ve got to keep in mind that the sort of exotic transportation, building resources, and stuff that players expect out of high level campaigns require the design of entire new systems. And scenario design to account for things like “what if they just teleport inside the Big Bad’s asshole?”
They have already shown that they are making adjustments to go from PnP to a video game. It's not 1 to 1 so there's no reason to apply that stuff 1 to 1 either.
And the sort of campaign they've shown so far is already dealing with some pretty big stuff, so characters getting to slightly higher levels to actually deal with it makes sense.
I also think the BG1 example isn't great because yea, that level cap felt horrible to me. Combat took forever to start to feel even remotely interesting and it ended with my characters feeling like they just started to actually get abilities. Options in combat were very limited for way too much of that game. That is the exact thing I am worried about.
In Critical Role the characters are level 12 right now and playing 5e. Combat definitely does not seem to be broken overpowered yet and still feels really good so it seems like it can still be pretty reasonable with a few more levels.
Again though, this game is not beholden to strictly following the rules either.
So the example show that you can use the 5e rules to make it totally work.
That's kinda the whole point.
Now, from what I understand, lower levels in 5th Ed have more options and flexibility than 2nd Ed, so this might be less of a factor in BG3.
Oh yea I agree there.
Comparing a completely different system also doesn't work super well. Either way BG1 is not a great example to use for this.
But yeah, most would agree that the game really starts at level five. It's when all the options start opening up for each class.
Don't think this is accurate. In season 1 they're coming from Pathfinder, so the DM allows a lot of magic items and rules to carry over that makes the players overpowered. He balances this by buffing encounters a lot
In season 2 they follow the rules more strictly, but the DM still buffs monsters and encounters because they're 7 player characters
Agree not to use it as a yardstick, but I'd say Matt Mercer makes things harder more than he makes things easier
In paper, I really only have to worry about my own guy's build. But in a game like this I have to worry about my character, and the 3 other folks in my part, plus whoever's hanging back at camp that I might want to take out at some point.
I would note here as well that this is a turn-based game and has a party of only 4 characters so they already have much less fiddly micro-management involved. And thus having each character be able to do more would feel a lot better. Passing through low impact turns for too many hours is usually not ideal.
I just know starting as a mage sucks in bg1. Why ive never finished it.
Now where did i put that save file....
I remember listening to the early episodes of Campaign 2 not having tuned in for the original, and I was kind of gobsmacked by the encounters Matt was throwing at his players. They regularly got mollywhomped most fights, and usually only won by the skin of their teeth or fudged dice on Matt's end.
- The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse (2017, colorized)
Steam profile.
Getting started with BATTLETECH: Part 1 / Part 2
Confirmed that yes level cap is going beyond 10.
FUCK YESSSSSS!
MY BIGGEST CONCERN ALLEVIATED!
Tarnesh! That guy must have so much blood on his hands. He'd just start blasting his 5th level Magic Missiles at twerps with single-digit hit points. Gods damned slaughter!!
This is probably why they made the canon Bhaalspawn a fighter. You gotta have d10 HD and a high Con to have realistic chance of surviving that fight without save scumming.
That guy at the friendly arm Inn got fucking merked.
I played on invincible mode because fuuuuuuck that combat system.
I made a point of murdering anyone with magic weapons first.
Sometimes discovering who had a magic weapon was a bit painful.
and actually nice use of the difficulty sliders
i am however a little unsure how they are going to address having dice roll (non-combat) events in a game that presumably does have quick save and quick load because... in tabletop sure theres a real sense of finality and stakes but if u fail a skill test u dont like failing and u can just load its just like make it deterministic and remove the temptation - or add it as a toggle