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Climate Change: Where every storm is Perfect

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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    I'm now genuinely wondering if two hurricanes have ever hit one another before

    I saw someone say it was a named phenomenon earlier tonight. Name was I think Japanese, so it might be something that's more common in the Pacific?

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    SyngyneSyngyne Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    I'm now genuinely wondering if two hurricanes have ever hit one another before

    I saw someone say it was a named phenomenon earlier tonight. Name was I think Japanese, so it might be something that's more common in the Pacific?

    An Omaewa-Moushindeiru system?

    5gsowHm.png
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    enlightenedbumenlightenedbum Registered User regular
    Syngyne wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    I'm now genuinely wondering if two hurricanes have ever hit one another before

    I saw someone say it was a named phenomenon earlier tonight. Name was I think Japanese, so it might be something that's more common in the Pacific?

    An Omaewa-Moushindeiru system?

    That was it.

    Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
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    Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    2020 is just a stand in for the whole decade right

    Like this year is so awful that when it ends, we go right to 2030 and the end of history cause the climate bomb has already exploded

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    see317see317 Registered User regular
    Syngyne wrote: »
    Jragghen wrote: »
    I'm now genuinely wondering if two hurricanes have ever hit one another before

    I saw someone say it was a named phenomenon earlier tonight. Name was I think Japanese, so it might be something that's more common in the Pacific?

    An Omaewa-Moushindeiru system?

    Nani?

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    That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    Jragghen wrote: »
    I'm now genuinely wondering if two hurricanes have ever hit one another before

    Forgive me if this was asked in jest. It happens but it's rare. The most notable example is the 1991 Perfect Storm (referenced in the thread title) where a nor'easter absorbed a hurricane and caused widespread devastation. The event was the basis for 2000's The Perfect Storm movie

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_Perfect_Storm
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Perfect_Storm_(film)

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    a5ehrena5ehren AtlantaRegistered User regular
    edited August 2020
    Fujiwhara interaction is the meteorological term: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fujiwhara_effect

    a5ehren on
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    TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    Karoz wrote: »
    Alright but frankensqeeters is still a great name.
    It sure is.
    I've already formed, and had artistic differences with, a band by this name.
    Look forward to our reunion tour.

    steam_sig.png
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    VeeveeVeevee WisconsinRegistered User regular
    Thankfully the gulf is only about 1 degree C above it's normal right now, around 30 to 31 C, and I believe it's also a bit drier air as well. Hopefully this storms wont go through any rapid intensification. Looks like the entire gulf coast needs to be on alert though

    as2w88xnrgco.png

    cr6l3kpwohab.png

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    Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Holy crap balls

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    CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Hehe, penis

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    That_GuyThat_Guy I don't wanna be that guy Registered User regular
    Looks like "The Big Easy" is about to get double teamed. This is 2005 all over again.

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    L Ron HowardL Ron Howard The duck MinnesotaRegistered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Looks like "The Big Easy" is about to get double teamed. This is 2005 all over again.

    And somehow, this will be worse. Both in actual storms & damage, as well as response.

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    Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    I very clearly recall* looking at the weather radar that night and going to bed thinking, "Guess I'll find out in the morning if New Orleans is still there."

    (* Not least because I actually saved the image. Still have it.)

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    Stabbity StyleStabbity Style He/Him | Warning: Mothership Reporting Kennewick, WARegistered User regular
    That_Guy wrote: »
    Looks like "The Big Easy" is about to get double teamed. This is 2005 all over again.

    They both look like they're gonna decay pretty heavily before hitting.

    Stabbity_Style.png
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    TastyfishTastyfish Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    Chance of getting two 90% chances is 80%. One 90% chance and one 80% is roughly 70% and two 80% chances is 65%.

    1 in 5 of getting hit by both storms at best isn't great, 1 in 3 is even worse.

    Tastyfish on
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    VishNubVishNub Registered User regular
    They're not independent events. The weather patterns controlling their paths are the same, and they could also affect each others paths.

    Whether that makes them coming close together more or less likely I have no idea.

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    see317see317 Registered User regular
    Holy crap balls

    Wait wait wait, let's not panic until we see how Trump edits those forecasts with his trusty sharpie.

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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Is that because it's shark week?

    Fuck, that is definitely because it's shark week.

    *edit
    I'm going to leave my paragraph down there, because it is an ongoing ecological story, but it appears there is no connection to Trump's rant and Florida's plan. That he was swatting at mosquitos and babbling about sharks seems to be unrelated.

    No, it's because Florida got the OK to release a boatload of genetically modified mosquitoes that breed with wild mosquitoes and their female offspring don't develop. It controls the population and reduces blood borne diseases in the area. Floridians are freaking out because frankensqeeters might give them unwanted vaccines or some other lunacy, but the sane people are freaking out because mosquitoes underpin the entire food chain.

    The particular species of mosquito targeted by this do not. There are several different species in the area, only a couple of which host these diseases, and none of which are preferentially preyed upon, and the other species can fill in their niche. I believe at least one of those species isn't even native to the area.

    Mosquitos in general are also not espescially important food insects for anything, because the blood of other animals (what the mosquitos we hate eat) is a really shitty food source. A parasitic mosquito is a predator. An efficient one, but, you (thing eating bugs) are still going to do better just eating something that eats plants.

    Aedes aegypti is an invasive species with no place in the US ecosystem which is a devastating killer through the viruses and parasites it carries. We have to kill it anyway, and you are FAR more likely to give your child a genetic injury through pesticide exposure than through GM mosquito bites. Spiderman is not a documentary. You do not gain mosquito DNA from being bitten, and Mosquitos don't go around mating with other mosquito species any more than humans mate with Gorillas.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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    LilnoobsLilnoobs Alpha Queue Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Is that because it's shark week?

    Fuck, that is definitely because it's shark week.

    *edit
    I'm going to leave my paragraph down there, because it is an ongoing ecological story, but it appears there is no connection to Trump's rant and Florida's plan. That he was swatting at mosquitos and babbling about sharks seems to be unrelated.

    No, it's because Florida got the OK to release a boatload of genetically modified mosquitoes that breed with wild mosquitoes and their female offspring don't develop. It controls the population and reduces blood borne diseases in the area. Floridians are freaking out because frankensqeeters might give them unwanted vaccines or some other lunacy, but the sane people are freaking out because mosquitoes underpin the entire food chain.

    The particular species of mosquito targeted by this do not. There are several different species in the area, only a couple of which host these diseases, and none of which are preferentially preyed upon, and the other species can fill in their niche. I believe at least one of those species isn't even native to the area.

    Mosquitos in general are also not espescially important food insects for anything, because the blood of other animals (what the mosquitos we hate eat) is a really shitty food source. A parasitic mosquito is a predator. An efficient one, but, you (thing eating bugs) are still going to do better just eating something that eats plants.

    Aedes aegypti is an invasive species with no place in the US ecosystem which is a devastating killer through the viruses and parasites it carries. We have to kill it anyway, and you are FAR more likely to give your child a genetic injury through pesticide exposure than through GM mosquito bites. Spiderman is not a documentary. You do not gain mosquito DNA from being bitten, and Mosquitos don't go around mating with other mosquito species any more than humans mate with Gorillas.

    Spiderman is a modern day cautionary tale (i.e. myth) meant to compress cultural knowledge and emotions into a symbol that's understandable, a bit also like what memes do. I don't think a rational person believes a mosquito will give you mosquito powers, but there's been about 0 instances I can recall where human fuckmuppetry of the local environment has lead to net positives. Also throw in this is genetically manipulating a living organism and then letting it loose into the wild, so I think people's fears are quite warranted. There's a lot of unknowns by doing such a thing, and our modern myths, which you like to cite so haphazardly, are tales that try to caution based on cultural experience and emotions.

    Lilnoobs on
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    HevachHevach Registered User regular
    VishNub wrote: »
    They're not independent events. The weather patterns controlling their paths are the same, and they could also affect each others paths.

    Whether that makes them coming close together more or less likely I have no idea.

    When cyclones get within a few hundred miles of each other, they tend to orbit and spiral inwards. The result is usually a disorganized but very powerful storm and if it has time if could reorganize into a top tier hurricane.

    This happens rarely in the Pacific but in the Atlantic it's never happened with two tropical systems that I know of, only between subtropical systems or a tropical and a subtropical one, and even more rarely than the Pacific.

    It takes time to happen, and both storms will make landfall before it happens, they won't be close enough together until quite close to landfall, currently they're far apart but moving at very different speeds.

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    TetraNitroCubaneTetraNitroCubane The Djinnerator At the bottom of a bottleRegistered User regular
    edited August 2020
    California continues to burn to the ground, and fire fighters are in short supply.

    Additional lightning is anticipated this evening, into Monday. So we expect to have additional fires any time now, into next week.

    I've been unable to see the sun or the sky all day today due to dense smoke everywhere.

    This isn't very fun, and it's not helping my anxiety.

    TetraNitroCubane on
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    MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    California continues to burn to the ground, and fire fighters are in short supply.

    Additional lightning is anticipated this evening, into Monday. So we expect to have additional fires any time now, into next week.

    I've been unable to see the sun or the sky all day today due to dense smoke everywhere.

    This isn't very fun, and it's not helping my anxiety.

    Don't worry. It'll get worse.

    Just wait until Trump gets involved.

    I'm sure he'll fuck things right up.

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    Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    There’s a small fire about 2 miles from downtown LA...30% contained, but that was a surprise to see one in a concrete jungle

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    dispatch.odispatch.o Registered User regular
    California continues to burn to the ground, and fire fighters are in short supply.

    Additional lightning is anticipated this evening, into Monday. So we expect to have additional fires any time now, into next week.

    I've been unable to see the sun or the sky all day today due to dense smoke everywhere.

    This isn't very fun, and it's not helping my anxiety.

    Mom is currently figuring out where to go if it gets closer. Chico is surrounded and while the city itself is pretty well cleared of easy to spark materials, there's a huge dry park that runs it's length. She's already packing water/food in the car for herself and cats and plans to sleep in the living room just in case.

    CalFire is telling people to expect lightning and no rainfall because while the high altitude clouds might produce precipitation, the air layer closer to the ground is so hot and void of moisture it will evaporate before hitting the ground.

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    HappylilElfHappylilElf Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Is that because it's shark week?

    Fuck, that is definitely because it's shark week.

    *edit
    I'm going to leave my paragraph down there, because it is an ongoing ecological story, but it appears there is no connection to Trump's rant and Florida's plan. That he was swatting at mosquitos and babbling about sharks seems to be unrelated.

    No, it's because Florida got the OK to release a boatload of genetically modified mosquitoes that breed with wild mosquitoes and their female offspring don't develop. It controls the population and reduces blood borne diseases in the area. Floridians are freaking out because frankensqeeters might give them unwanted vaccines or some other lunacy, but the sane people are freaking out because mosquitoes underpin the entire food chain.

    The particular species of mosquito targeted by this do not. There are several different species in the area, only a couple of which host these diseases, and none of which are preferentially preyed upon, and the other species can fill in their niche. I believe at least one of those species isn't even native to the area.

    Mosquitos in general are also not espescially important food insects for anything, because the blood of other animals (what the mosquitos we hate eat) is a really shitty food source. A parasitic mosquito is a predator. An efficient one, but, you (thing eating bugs) are still going to do better just eating something that eats plants.

    Aedes aegypti is an invasive species with no place in the US ecosystem which is a devastating killer through the viruses and parasites it carries. We have to kill it anyway, and you are FAR more likely to give your child a genetic injury through pesticide exposure than through GM mosquito bites. Spiderman is not a documentary. You do not gain mosquito DNA from being bitten, and Mosquitos don't go around mating with other mosquito species any more than humans mate with Gorillas.

    Spiderman is a modern day cautionary tale (i.e. myth) meant to compress cultural knowledge and emotions into a symbol that's understandable, a bit also like what memes do. I don't think a rational person believes a mosquito will give you mosquito powers, but there's been about 0 instances I can recall where human fuckmuppetry of the local environment has lead to net positives. Also throw in this is genetically manipulating a living organism and then letting it loose into the wild, so I think people's fears are quite warranted. There's a lot of unknowns by doing such a thing, and our modern myths, which you like to cite so haphazardly, are tales that try to caution based on cultural experience and emotions.

    Cool but do you want to actually address the points made in tbloxham's post or

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    PhyphorPhyphor Building Planet Busters Tasting FruitRegistered User regular
    Yeah that's like the biggest non sequitur I've ever seen

    Malaria was endemic throughout much of the US south until quite recently, which is very bad for humans, but it's not anymore and the food chain hasn't collapsed or anything despite lacking all those mosquitos

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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Lilnoobs wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Doodmann wrote: »
    Is that because it's shark week?

    Fuck, that is definitely because it's shark week.

    *edit
    I'm going to leave my paragraph down there, because it is an ongoing ecological story, but it appears there is no connection to Trump's rant and Florida's plan. That he was swatting at mosquitos and babbling about sharks seems to be unrelated.

    No, it's because Florida got the OK to release a boatload of genetically modified mosquitoes that breed with wild mosquitoes and their female offspring don't develop. It controls the population and reduces blood borne diseases in the area. Floridians are freaking out because frankensqeeters might give them unwanted vaccines or some other lunacy, but the sane people are freaking out because mosquitoes underpin the entire food chain.

    The particular species of mosquito targeted by this do not. There are several different species in the area, only a couple of which host these diseases, and none of which are preferentially preyed upon, and the other species can fill in their niche. I believe at least one of those species isn't even native to the area.

    Mosquitos in general are also not espescially important food insects for anything, because the blood of other animals (what the mosquitos we hate eat) is a really shitty food source. A parasitic mosquito is a predator. An efficient one, but, you (thing eating bugs) are still going to do better just eating something that eats plants.

    Aedes aegypti is an invasive species with no place in the US ecosystem which is a devastating killer through the viruses and parasites it carries. We have to kill it anyway, and you are FAR more likely to give your child a genetic injury through pesticide exposure than through GM mosquito bites. Spiderman is not a documentary. You do not gain mosquito DNA from being bitten, and Mosquitos don't go around mating with other mosquito species any more than humans mate with Gorillas.

    Spiderman is a modern day cautionary tale (i.e. myth) meant to compress cultural knowledge and emotions into a symbol that's understandable, a bit also like what memes do. I don't think a rational person believes a mosquito will give you mosquito powers, but there's been about 0 instances I can recall where human fuckmuppetry of the local environment has lead to net positives. Also throw in this is genetically manipulating a living organism and then letting it loose into the wild, so I think people's fears are quite warranted. There's a lot of unknowns by doing such a thing, and our modern myths, which you like to cite so haphazardly, are tales that try to caution based on cultural experience and emotions.

    Killing the Aedes Aegypti mosquito would be a good thing. It is an invasive species with no place in the ecosystem with hundreds of viable local competitors who have the major advantage of not giving is so many horrible diseases.

    So, with their elimination so clearly desirable, its just a question of how we do it. Pesticide is a poor plan, and the sterile male technique doesn't work well for mosquitoes (yes, we've been eliminating insects for decades by tinkering with male fertility. Enjoy not being eaten by screwflies!), so we're left with GM mosquitoes.

    GM mosquitoes are regular mosquitoes with a genetic defect which causes their male offspring to die. Its not a sustainable genetic defect because the female carriers can't reproduce as effectively (because all their sons die) which means that without regular 'top ups' it will eliminate itself from the population. With regular releases of modified mosquitos however, it should be possible to eliminate the species.

    What though, are the risks? Well, could eating GM organisms be bad for you somehow? No, because thats not how genes work. Perhaps the mosquito could somehow start mating on mass with another mosquito species, causing undesirable side kills? Nope, because that's not how mosquitos work. Perhaps a virus could take the sterilizing section of the mosquito DNA, copy it, and then add it to the DNA of another mosquito of a different species in just the right place causing it to be sterile as well. Well, that hypothetically could happen, but this mosquito sterility gene already exists in insects so, why the virus wouldn't have copied it before I dont know, and, even if it did this rare event wouldn't create a sustainable effect in the off target species, because the gene dies out in populations without regular top ups (no males with the gene). Effectively this gene causes all males and females with the gene to have half as many offspring as those without, without human intervention it has a massive pressure to be eliminated from the species.

    The idea of sterile males is not a new thing, this is just a better way of doing it. If we decided to stop doing it, then the mosquito would come right back and elimination will only be achieved in areas where we consistantly and carefully release the GM males.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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    HevachHevach Registered User regular
    A virus might have already done it at some point... But like you said, it's not a sustainable gene, it will quickly breed itself out. And a virus induced mutation in nature happens in just one individual, so it's gone with no real impact on the population.

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    HamHamJHamHamJ Registered User regular
    It seems like the biggest source of risk would be the manufacturing process. Are you actually reliably producing mosquitoes with the traits you want and not introducing traits you don't realize? One would assume that sufficient testing is done to be confident of that before full scale operation, but with the government these days who knows.

    While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    HamHamJ wrote: »
    It seems like the biggest source of risk would be the manufacturing process. Are you actually reliably producing mosquitoes with the traits you want and not introducing traits you don't realize? One would assume that sufficient testing is done to be confident of that before full scale operation, but with the government these days who knows.

    The mosquito gene in question makes the males need a specific chemical in order to reach maturity. This chemical can be easily provided in breeding ponds in the breeding facilities, but out in the wild it 'doesn't exist'. So, you don't need to keep messing with them. You just keep an eye out for them spontaneously mutating to eliminate the gene between generations. However, you only need to do the tinkering with DNA once, then you can just save eggs with the desirable sequences.

    Its honestly a very neat idea which builds on classic insect management techniques. If it works, we could eliminate all sorts of invasive insect species, which do ENORMOUS damage to public health and the environment without any need for pesticides. Ash borer beetles and so on.

    https://entomologytoday.org/2018/06/21/invasive-insects-the-top-4-most-wanted-list/

    Literally these bastards are a nightmare which we have no good weapon against. They, and their ilk who attack less profitable things like trees and stuff, make climate change worse, and destroy local species. It's our fault that they are here, and killing them HERE would be an excellent plan. US native insects have US native predators and exist in the US ecosystem. They don't cause uncontrollable damage. But things like the Aedes Aegypti and others, should not be here.

    tbloxham on
    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    ...they're literally using the Jurassic Park method. That's hilarious.

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    HevachHevach Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    Realistically, the Jurassic Park method is solid. Controlling one sex and keeping the other has been used to control species for centuries and in every setting from laboratories to pet stores.

    The ability to shift sex isn't just a single gene but an entire chromosomal system and not something you can randomly introduce along with a couple desired genes.

    Dr. Wu's comment in Jurassic World sums up why it was conceivable in the setting: because none of their creations were dinosaurs, they were fucked up frogs shaped like dinosaurs.

    Hevach on
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    zagdrobzagdrob Registered User regular
    Hevach wrote: »
    Realistically, the Jurassic Park method is solid. Controlling one sex and keeping the other has been used to control species for centuries and in every setting from laboratories to pet stores.

    The ability to shift sex isn't just a single gene but an entire chromosomal system and not something you can randomly introduce along with a couple desired genes.

    Dr. Wu's comment in Jurassic World sums up why it was conceivable in the setting: because none of their creations were dinosaurs, they were fucked up frogs shaped like dinosaurs.

    The sex was one aspect, but they also made the dinosaurs unable to synthesize lysine. Since the dinos required constant supplements, if they escaped they would die of lysine deficiency.

    This fails when the dinosaurs escape and supplement their diet with natural sources of lysine. If I recall the book specifically mentioned them eating soybeans.

    Of course in reality no animals can synthesize lysine and need to acquire it through their diet, so this would be completely pointless as a real measure.

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    38thDoe38thDoe lets never be stupid again wait lets always be stupid foreverRegistered User regular
    I think they also irradiated the dinosaurs to sterilize them.

    Jurrasic Park: What is held up as irresponsible is actually more responsible than real life.

    38thDoE on steam
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    MosatiMosati Registered User regular
    edited August 2020
    We have 15 or more invasive mosquito species here in Florida, none of the ones flying around my ankles right now are native. There's a lot of killing to be done, culling Aedes Aegypti is a good start though.

    Mosati on
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    SoggybiscuitSoggybiscuit Tandem Electrostatic Accelerator Registered User regular
    Mosati wrote: »
    We have 15 or more invasive mosquito species here in Florida, none of the ones flying around my ankles right now are native. There's a lot of killing to be done, culling Aedes Aegypti is a good start though.

    I'm usually bitten by them (not native species) here in southern Ohio. Eliminating them is desirable.

    Steam - Synthetic Violence | XBOX Live - Cannonfuse | PSN - CastleBravo | Twitch - SoggybiscuitPA
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    Captain InertiaCaptain Inertia Registered User regular
    Yeah eliminating them is good

    Adding more bloodsucking frankensqueeters (nice job) is definitely eyebrow-raising in the least though

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    Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    Yeah eliminating them is good

    Adding more bloodsucking frankensqueeters (nice job) is definitely eyebrow-raising in the least though

    Male mosquitoes are entirely machines for getting it on and don't bite.

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    tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    Yeah eliminating them is good

    Adding more bloodsucking frankensqueeters (nice job) is definitely eyebrow-raising in the least though

    Male mosquitoes are entirely machines for getting it on and don't bite.

    Also, just because you can describe something in a scary way doesn't make it a scary idea. Its a very good idea! As opposed to the other plan, do nothing and wring our hands, or pour millions of gallons of insecticide on things.

    Invasive species are not an important part of local ecosystems. The release of genetically modified males is the most targetted thing we can do to them and we've been doing very similar stuff (with irradiated flies and moths, which works pretty well because in many fly species, the female mates only once regardless of success) for decades.

    GM stuff is not bad. There are concerns about it in that it COULD be used irresponsibly. And, if this kill effort was targetted at a US native species in its home range then I'd say, "Extirmination of this thing should be considered carefully", but this isn't what this mosquito IS. Its an ocean hopping invasive killer, which we should responsibly eliminate everywhere outside its home range of North Africa, and THEN we should ask the question whether eliminating it there too is responsible.

    People have concerns about the GM organisms I can see, but, Aegypti is ITSELF a GM organism. It's a north african mosquito species which has diverged from its wild cousins to bite more in daytime, fly indoors, and prefer indoor nesting sites. It's genetically adapted to US. You could do horribly irresponsible things with GM organisms, but you could do that with many many things. Its not the GM which is the problem, its what you do with it. And eliminating Aegypti (and its invasive cousins) would be a huge boon to humans, to the environment, and to the ecosystem (as native mosquito species which are active at night etc would thrive).

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
This discussion has been closed.