is a takeover possible though? the tea party had the kochs to bankroll it, there's no billionaire aristocrat family that's gonna fund a socialist takeover of the democratic party
I think its been sufficiently shown that small donation activity can reasonably fund a campaign that can also lean on popular support. I think to some degree extremely expensive campaigns are were necessary because a) you had a lot of careerist leaches and b) its expensive to sell shit no one wants.
i agree that the normal democratic billionaire starfucker thing isn't necessary, but i don't see small-donation leftist insurgent candidates winning in enough numbers that they could take over the party in less time than it'd take to start something better from scratch
for what it's worth i agree that we don't have enough time to spin up a whole new party, i just don't think there's time to take over the democrats either
Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
to continue off my post (sorry things aren't super coherent i'm a little scatterbrained today)
i know there are difficulties in a new party and shit, smarter people than me have already talked about it here
but it's both baffling and enraging to me to see so many posts here saying to give up the fight before it's even started because "might lose!" when people have been out getting beaten, getting killed fighting against heavily armed police forces for the past 3 months
Gunfucker twitter is in predicable disarray over the Kenhosha shooting, they were all gladly braying self-defense initially but the more squeamish ones are reeling over the 'out of town child-cop soldier' aspects
There's already a reasoning for it. Gateway Pundit (that I won't link) has his lawyer's statement:
Kyle Rittenhouse is a community lifeguard who was working in Kenosha the day of the shooting.
This simple fact destroys the narrative being peddled by the mainstream media that he had “crossed state lines” to harm the rioters.
In a statement by Rittenhouse’s legal team at Pierce Bainbridge, provided to the Gateway Pundit, they explained that “after Kyle finished his work that day as a community lifeguard in Kenosha, he wanted to help clean up some of the damage, so he and a friend went to the local public high school to remove graffiti by rioters.”
Additionally, the weapon Rittenhouse was using to protect himself and others never crossed state lines.
“Later in the day, they received information about a call for help from a local business owner, whose downtown Kenosha auto dealership was largely destroyed by mob violence,” the statement continues. “Business owner needed help to protect what he had left of his life’s work, including two nearby mechanic’s shops. Kyle and a friend armed themselves with rifles due to the deadly violence gripping Kenosha and many other American cities, and headed to the business premises. The weapons were in Wisconsin and never crossed state lines.”
When Rittenhouse arrived at the mechanics shop, he and others stood guard to prevent further destruction. Later that night, long after the 8 p.m. curfew had passed, the police began to disperse a group of rioters. His lawyer, John M. Pierce, explains that while dispersing the mob, they maneuvered a mass of individuals down the street towards the auto shops. Rittenhouse and the others were threatened and taunted, but he did not react. “His intent was not to incite violence, but simply to deter property damage and use his training to provide first aid to injured community members,” Pierce says.
After the situation seemed to be diffused, Rittenhouse became increasingly concerned about people who were injured at the gas station, so he went in that direction with his first aid kit. He helped those he could find who were injured, either by administering aid or directing them which way to go for help beyond what he could offer.
The statement says that by the final time that Rittenhouse returned to the gas station and “confirmed there were no more injured individuals who needed assistance, police had advanced their formation and blocked what would have been his path back to the mechanic’s shop. Kyle then complied with the police instructions not to go back there. Kyle returned to the gas station until he learned of a need to help protect the second mechanic’s shop further down the street where property destruction was imminent with no police were nearby.”
“As Kyle proceeded towards the second mechanic’s shop, he was accosted by multiple rioters who recognized that he had been attempting to protect a business the mob wanted to destroy. This outraged the rioters and created a mob now determined to hurt Kyle. They began chasing him down. Kyle attempted to get away, but he could not do so quickly enough. Upon the sound of a gunshot behind him, Kyle turned and was immediately faced with an attacker lunging towards him and reaching for his rifle. He reacted instantaneously and justifiably with his weapon to protect himself, firing and striking the attacker,” Pierce explains.
Wait, wait, so let me get this straight. Some random guy just handed a child a rifle and told him to go defend an auto shop? Who is this guy?
is a takeover possible though? the tea party had the kochs to bankroll it, there's no billionaire aristocrat family that's gonna fund a socialist takeover of the democratic party
I think its been sufficiently shown that small donation activity can reasonably fund a campaign that can also lean on popular support. I think to some degree extremely expensive campaigns are were necessary because a) you had a lot of careerist leaches and b) its expensive to sell shit no one wants.
i agree that the normal democratic billionaire starfucker thing isn't necessary, but i don't see small-donation leftist insurgent candidates winning in enough numbers that they could take over the party in less time than it'd take to start something better from scratch
for what it's worth i agree that we don't have enough time to spin up a whole new party, i just don't think there's time to take over the democrats either
Oh don't get me wrong, there's no sure thing. I just think there's more hope for useful change in a take over than trying to start all over.
why is harris being solidly liberal a defense for shit that shit did while AG? i understand that this could come off as a shitty snipe, but it's an honest question. ditto biden. okay, he regrets being directly responsible for the crime bill, what has he done to make it right since then?
There's indications Harris was solidly liberal as a DA, even if that's like saying "the shortest giant in the room".
As for other things he's done since then that might speak to how he thinks, I remember him as being vocally against the Republican's constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage (having previously voted in favour of DOMA etc), and he apparently pushed Obama into supporting same-sex marriage. Again, hardly an explosion of awesome but it does show something important (to me, at least); a capacity for evolution in his positions, and in the right direction IMO.
This might be one reason why I'm not as down on Biden as you are; I think he has actually shown significant capability to change his mind and grow through the years, and some important changes are both recent and prior to running for prez.
really though the part of my post you conceded should be enough. there's enough instances of the man saying extremely shitty things that just the fact that you have to go through each claim individually and provide context proves my point to some extent.
It does, and I appreciate you engaging in the way you did. I do view him in a different light to you though, particularly as he seems to have made significant changes to how he thinks in recent times.
why do these people deserve the benefit of the doubt?
They don't! However, I believe that to move forward politically, we need to properly assess where we are. And it's not great, but nor do I think it's as bad as you suggest. I think there's promise there, but we must continue to hold them to account.
Full disclosure
1. I was hoping for a Warren/Harris ticket for president, even though I knew I was almost certainly never going to get it.
2. I'm British, and I watched the Labour Party throw away what could have been a win in a recent U.K. general election at least partly because they were so busy infighting and talking shit about their own candidates. If there's one thing the right wing does, it's move and vote in lockstep for whatever goblin they nominate.
3. I'm a liberal immigrant married to a liberal Muslim immigrant in a red state. I have only become steadily more frightened by what I see, and I'm very much hoping for a Dem win even with compromises made to get there. YMMV, obviously.
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Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
I'm also quite in favour of hitting nazis in the head with stones and bottles but a lot of people in my family history were awarded medals from the government for just killing people like that so I am probably biased from the outset
My ol' Grampappy earned himself a few lumps of cast metal to pin on his chest for getting rid of nazis, I reckon that's a family tradition worth observing.
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Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
is a takeover possible though? the tea party had the kochs to bankroll it, there's no billionaire aristocrat family that's gonna fund a socialist takeover of the democratic party
I think its been sufficiently shown that small donation activity can reasonably fund a campaign that can also lean on popular support. I think to some degree extremely expensive campaigns are were necessary because a) you had a lot of careerist leaches and b) its expensive to sell shit no one wants.
i agree that the normal democratic billionaire starfucker thing isn't necessary, but i don't see small-donation leftist insurgent candidates winning in enough numbers that they could take over the party in less time than it'd take to start something better from scratch
for what it's worth i agree that we don't have enough time to spin up a whole new party, i just don't think there's time to take over the democrats either
Oh don't get me wrong, there's no sure thing. I just think there's more hope for useful change in a take over than trying to start all over.
how do leftists take over a party that shuns them and invites Republicans to the dnc?
serious question. i just don't know how anyone holds out hope of the democrats moving to the left after that fuckin convention
Gunfucker twitter is in predicable disarray over the Kenhosha shooting, they were all gladly braying self-defense initially but the more squeamish ones are reeling over the 'out of town child-cop soldier' aspects
There's already a reasoning for it. Gateway Pundit (that I won't link) has his lawyer's statement:
Kyle Rittenhouse is a community lifeguard who was working in Kenosha the day of the shooting.
This simple fact destroys the narrative being peddled by the mainstream media that he had “crossed state lines” to harm the rioters.
In a statement by Rittenhouse’s legal team at Pierce Bainbridge, provided to the Gateway Pundit, they explained that “after Kyle finished his work that day as a community lifeguard in Kenosha, he wanted to help clean up some of the damage, so he and a friend went to the local public high school to remove graffiti by rioters.”
Additionally, the weapon Rittenhouse was using to protect himself and others never crossed state lines.
“Later in the day, they received information about a call for help from a local business owner, whose downtown Kenosha auto dealership was largely destroyed by mob violence,” the statement continues. “Business owner needed help to protect what he had left of his life’s work, including two nearby mechanic’s shops. Kyle and a friend armed themselves with rifles due to the deadly violence gripping Kenosha and many other American cities, and headed to the business premises. The weapons were in Wisconsin and never crossed state lines.”
When Rittenhouse arrived at the mechanics shop, he and others stood guard to prevent further destruction. Later that night, long after the 8 p.m. curfew had passed, the police began to disperse a group of rioters. His lawyer, John M. Pierce, explains that while dispersing the mob, they maneuvered a mass of individuals down the street towards the auto shops. Rittenhouse and the others were threatened and taunted, but he did not react. “His intent was not to incite violence, but simply to deter property damage and use his training to provide first aid to injured community members,” Pierce says.
After the situation seemed to be diffused, Rittenhouse became increasingly concerned about people who were injured at the gas station, so he went in that direction with his first aid kit. He helped those he could find who were injured, either by administering aid or directing them which way to go for help beyond what he could offer.
The statement says that by the final time that Rittenhouse returned to the gas station and “confirmed there were no more injured individuals who needed assistance, police had advanced their formation and blocked what would have been his path back to the mechanic’s shop. Kyle then complied with the police instructions not to go back there. Kyle returned to the gas station until he learned of a need to help protect the second mechanic’s shop further down the street where property destruction was imminent with no police were nearby.”
“As Kyle proceeded towards the second mechanic’s shop, he was accosted by multiple rioters who recognized that he had been attempting to protect a business the mob wanted to destroy. This outraged the rioters and created a mob now determined to hurt Kyle. They began chasing him down. Kyle attempted to get away, but he could not do so quickly enough. Upon the sound of a gunshot behind him, Kyle turned and was immediately faced with an attacker lunging towards him and reaching for his rifle. He reacted instantaneously and justifiably with his weapon to protect himself, firing and striking the attacker,” Pierce explains.
Wait, wait, so let me get this straight. Some random guy just handed a child a rifle and told him to go defend an auto shop? Who is this guy?
It's like that bit in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe when Santa hands the children their weapons. Magic!
This post was sponsored by Tom Cruise.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
i hope that my posts that are "fuck biden, fuck the democrats, have you seen them?" aren't interpreted as me being hopeless or pessimistic.
it's the opposite; i have incredible hope in the people actually fighting for a better world
why is harris being solidly liberal a defense for shit that shit did while AG? i understand that this could come off as a shitty snipe, but it's an honest question. ditto biden. okay, he regrets being directly responsible for the crime bill, what has he done to make it right since then?
There's indications Harris was solidly liberal as a DA, even if that's like saying "the shortest giant in the room".
As for other things he's done since then that might speak to how he thinks, I remember him as being vocally against the Republican's constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage (having previously voted in favour of DOMA etc), and he apparently pushed Obama into supporting same-sex marriage. Again, hardly an explosion of awesome but it does show something important (to me, at least); a capacity for evolution in his positions, and in the right direction IMO.
This might be one reason why I'm not as down on Biden as you are; I think he has actually shown significant capability to change his mind and grow through the years, and some important changes are both recent and prior to running for prez.
really though the part of my post you conceded should be enough. there's enough instances of the man saying extremely shitty things that just the fact that you have to go through each claim individually and provide context proves my point to some extent.
It does, and I appreciate you engaging in the way you did. I do view him in a different light to you though, particularly as he seems to have made significant changes to how he thinks in recent times.
why do these people deserve the benefit of the doubt?
They don't! However, I believe that to move forward politically, we need to properly assess where we are. And it's not great, but nor do I think it's as bad as you suggest. I think there's promise there, but we must continue to hold them to account.
Full disclosure
1. I was hoping for a Warren/Harris ticket for president, even though I knew I was almost certainly never going to get it.
2. I'm British, and I watched the Labour Party throw away what could have been a win in a recent U.K. general election at least partly because they were so busy infighting and talking shit about their own candidates. If there's one thing the right wing does, it's move and vote in lockstep for whatever goblin they nominate.
3. I'm a liberal immigrant married to a liberal Muslim immigrant in a red state. I have only become steadily more frightened by what I see, and I'm very much hoping for a Dem win even with compromises made to get there. YMMV, obviously.
for my part, this will be the first election since 2004 that i probably won't be voting in. literally since i was a child the democrats have been telling me i have to vote for them or else the republicans would get in and it would be my fault, and i went along with it because to some extent they're right, and yet here we are. i voted for clinton last time around, even though she's a personification of everything i dislike about politics, because president trump would obviously be a disaster, and she and the party leadership have spent the intervening time blaming their loss on everything but the shitty campaign. there's no reason to think that even if there is an election (i think the republicans are gonna suddenly get very worried about the 'rona in maybe early october, after they've succeeded in destroying the postal service completely to neutralize the threat of mail-in voting) it'll be on the up and up, and even if it is on the up and up there's no reason to be confident biden will win. and even if he does win, there are no police reforms the president is able to make that the police will care about, they will keep murdering people, and there's no reason to believe the democrats won't be just as keen as the republicans to use un-uniformed federal secret police to disappear protesters
you're right that we have different ideas of how much trouble we're in, but i think you're underestimating the depth of shit we're wading in. this is the most unstable the country's been since the run-up to the civil war, and if there's a path to smooth things out where they don't get much worse first, i can't see it. i try really hard to not be all doom and gloom about this shit because it's a really easy slide from that to straight up cynicism, but i think a lot of people aren't nearly as scared as they should be
make friends with your neighbors so you have people to fall back on just in case, learn some first aid and basic trauma care. hoarding supplies is mostly not useful but having a week or two of canned food stashed away never hurt anyone
how do leftists take over a party that shuns them and invites Republicans to the dnc?
Two parts, the first is social campaigning. Democrats don't really believe in much so if we can get them on board with some stuff if we convince 51% of the population to get on board. Like with gay marriage. Obviously this doesn't work that well when capital interests are in conflict. The other is really not glamorous but its just boots on pavement door knocking campaigning. The Democrats are run by a bunch of moderates and conservatives in deep blue seats. Once we can gut them out the centrists in seats that we'd struggle to take will have less institutional backing for their bullshit.
Styrofoam Sammich on
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Donovan PuppyfuckerA dagger in the dark isworth a thousand swords in the morningRegistered Userregular
i hope that my posts that are "fuck biden, fuck the democrats, have you seen them?" aren't interpreted as me being hopeless or pessimistic.
it's the opposite; i have incredible hope in the people actually fighting for a better world
I've always found that kind of read just so uncharitable. Like at the very least, the person has taken the time to write out a post and put it here, they must care and think there's some hope for improvement at least a little. Someone who genuinely thought it was a 100% chance of going straight to fucktown wouldn't even bother.
Gunfucker twitter is in predicable disarray over the Kenhosha shooting, they were all gladly braying self-defense initially but the more squeamish ones are reeling over the 'out of town child-cop soldier' aspects
There's already a reasoning for it. Gateway Pundit (that I won't link) has his lawyer's statement:
Kyle Rittenhouse is a community lifeguard who was working in Kenosha the day of the shooting.
This simple fact destroys the narrative being peddled by the mainstream media that he had “crossed state lines” to harm the rioters.
In a statement by Rittenhouse’s legal team at Pierce Bainbridge, provided to the Gateway Pundit, they explained that “after Kyle finished his work that day as a community lifeguard in Kenosha, he wanted to help clean up some of the damage, so he and a friend went to the local public high school to remove graffiti by rioters.”
Additionally, the weapon Rittenhouse was using to protect himself and others never crossed state lines.
“Later in the day, they received information about a call for help from a local business owner, whose downtown Kenosha auto dealership was largely destroyed by mob violence,” the statement continues. “Business owner needed help to protect what he had left of his life’s work, including two nearby mechanic’s shops. Kyle and a friend armed themselves with rifles due to the deadly violence gripping Kenosha and many other American cities, and headed to the business premises. The weapons were in Wisconsin and never crossed state lines.”
When Rittenhouse arrived at the mechanics shop, he and others stood guard to prevent further destruction. Later that night, long after the 8 p.m. curfew had passed, the police began to disperse a group of rioters. His lawyer, John M. Pierce, explains that while dispersing the mob, they maneuvered a mass of individuals down the street towards the auto shops. Rittenhouse and the others were threatened and taunted, but he did not react. “His intent was not to incite violence, but simply to deter property damage and use his training to provide first aid to injured community members,” Pierce says.
After the situation seemed to be diffused, Rittenhouse became increasingly concerned about people who were injured at the gas station, so he went in that direction with his first aid kit. He helped those he could find who were injured, either by administering aid or directing them which way to go for help beyond what he could offer.
The statement says that by the final time that Rittenhouse returned to the gas station and “confirmed there were no more injured individuals who needed assistance, police had advanced their formation and blocked what would have been his path back to the mechanic’s shop. Kyle then complied with the police instructions not to go back there. Kyle returned to the gas station until he learned of a need to help protect the second mechanic’s shop further down the street where property destruction was imminent with no police were nearby.”
“As Kyle proceeded towards the second mechanic’s shop, he was accosted by multiple rioters who recognized that he had been attempting to protect a business the mob wanted to destroy. This outraged the rioters and created a mob now determined to hurt Kyle. They began chasing him down. Kyle attempted to get away, but he could not do so quickly enough. Upon the sound of a gunshot behind him, Kyle turned and was immediately faced with an attacker lunging towards him and reaching for his rifle. He reacted instantaneously and justifiably with his weapon to protect himself, firing and striking the attacker,” Pierce explains.
Wait, wait, so let me get this straight. Some random guy just handed a child a rifle and told him to go defend an auto shop? Who is this guy?
It's like that bit in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe when Santa hands the children their weapons. Magic!
The idea that the Democrats will fix things, or even meaningfully staunch the bleeding, ignores that they failed to do this during the strongest period of the Obama administration
+29
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
i hope that my posts that are "fuck biden, fuck the democrats, have you seen them?" aren't interpreted as me being hopeless or pessimistic.
it's the opposite; i have incredible hope in the people actually fighting for a better world
I've always found that kind of read just so uncharitable. Like at the very least, the person has taken the time to write out a post and put it here, they must care and think there's some hope for improvement at least a little. Someone who genuinely thought it was a 100% chance of going straight to fucktown wouldn't even bother.
i got anxiety!!!
and also have been completely alone for 5 days now without even my dogs to talk to so i've been too online
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
whoever the next non biden/harris democrat presidential nominee will be is currently registered republican
Gunfucker twitter is in predicable disarray over the Kenhosha shooting, they were all gladly braying self-defense initially but the more squeamish ones are reeling over the 'out of town child-cop soldier' aspects
There's already a reasoning for it. Gateway Pundit (that I won't link) has his lawyer's statement:
Kyle Rittenhouse is a community lifeguard who was working in Kenosha the day of the shooting.
This simple fact destroys the narrative being peddled by the mainstream media that he had “crossed state lines” to harm the rioters.
In a statement by Rittenhouse’s legal team at Pierce Bainbridge, provided to the Gateway Pundit, they explained that “after Kyle finished his work that day as a community lifeguard in Kenosha, he wanted to help clean up some of the damage, so he and a friend went to the local public high school to remove graffiti by rioters.”
Additionally, the weapon Rittenhouse was using to protect himself and others never crossed state lines.
“Later in the day, they received information about a call for help from a local business owner, whose downtown Kenosha auto dealership was largely destroyed by mob violence,” the statement continues. “Business owner needed help to protect what he had left of his life’s work, including two nearby mechanic’s shops. Kyle and a friend armed themselves with rifles due to the deadly violence gripping Kenosha and many other American cities, and headed to the business premises. The weapons were in Wisconsin and never crossed state lines.”
When Rittenhouse arrived at the mechanics shop, he and others stood guard to prevent further destruction. Later that night, long after the 8 p.m. curfew had passed, the police began to disperse a group of rioters. His lawyer, John M. Pierce, explains that while dispersing the mob, they maneuvered a mass of individuals down the street towards the auto shops. Rittenhouse and the others were threatened and taunted, but he did not react. “His intent was not to incite violence, but simply to deter property damage and use his training to provide first aid to injured community members,” Pierce says.
After the situation seemed to be diffused, Rittenhouse became increasingly concerned about people who were injured at the gas station, so he went in that direction with his first aid kit. He helped those he could find who were injured, either by administering aid or directing them which way to go for help beyond what he could offer.
The statement says that by the final time that Rittenhouse returned to the gas station and “confirmed there were no more injured individuals who needed assistance, police had advanced their formation and blocked what would have been his path back to the mechanic’s shop. Kyle then complied with the police instructions not to go back there. Kyle returned to the gas station until he learned of a need to help protect the second mechanic’s shop further down the street where property destruction was imminent with no police were nearby.”
“As Kyle proceeded towards the second mechanic’s shop, he was accosted by multiple rioters who recognized that he had been attempting to protect a business the mob wanted to destroy. This outraged the rioters and created a mob now determined to hurt Kyle. They began chasing him down. Kyle attempted to get away, but he could not do so quickly enough. Upon the sound of a gunshot behind him, Kyle turned and was immediately faced with an attacker lunging towards him and reaching for his rifle. He reacted instantaneously and justifiably with his weapon to protect himself, firing and striking the attacker,” Pierce explains.
Wait, wait, so let me get this straight. Some random guy just handed a child a rifle and told him to go defend an auto shop? Who is this guy?
My bet is the owner of the two auto shops or a upper employee of them. Rittenhouse's version makes sense that way. The owner decides that the cops weren't going to save the second auto shop, so he gives guns to Rittenhouse and his friends and sends them there. Kid is dumb enough to not realize that he's being sent as cannon fodder, has a confrontation with protesters, panics, and the inevitable happens.
for my part, this will be the first election since 2004 that i probably won't be voting in literally since i was a child the democrats have been telling me i have to vote for them or else the republicans would get in and it would be my fault, and i went along with it because to some extent they're right, and yet here we are.
But I don't see how not voting fixes that?
there's no reason to think that even if there is an election ... it'll be on the up and up, and even if it is on the up and up there's no reason to be confident biden will win.
Or this?
and even if he does win, there are no police reforms the president is able to make that the police will care about, they will keep murdering people, and there's no reason to believe the democrats won't be just as keen as the republicans to use un-uniformed federal secret police to disappear protesters
So if you don't vote it'll effectively be the same as now? I don't agree with that, given me an imperfect Dem government over the current shitshow any day of the week.
you're right that we have different ideas of how much trouble we're in, but i think you're underestimating the depth of shit we're wading in. this is the most unstable the country's been since the run-up to the civil war, and if there's a path to smooth things out where they don't get much worse first, i can't see it. i try really hard to not be all doom and gloom about this shit because it's a really easy slide from that to straight up cynicism, but i think a lot of people aren't nearly as scared as they should be
The situation in the US is serious, definitely - but I don't believe this is the most unstable the US has been since the Civil War. I'm not sure it eclipses the mid-to-late 1960s at this point.
That's not to say it won't get worse, and I agree with you - I think it will. But I believe a Dem gov't moving forward will help to start set things right. Will it fix everything in 4 years? Nope, but it's a start.
There's definitely a great deal of work to do.
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Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
for my part, this will be the first election since 2004 that i probably won't be voting in literally since i was a child the democrats have been telling me i have to vote for them or else the republicans would get in and it would be my fault, and i went along with it because to some extent they're right, and yet here we are.
But I don't see how not voting fixes that?
there's no reason to think that even if there is an election ... it'll be on the up and up, and even if it is on the up and up there's no reason to be confident biden will win.
Or this?
and even if he does win, there are no police reforms the president is able to make that the police will care about, they will keep murdering people, and there's no reason to believe the democrats won't be just as keen as the republicans to use un-uniformed federal secret police to disappear protesters
So if you don't vote it'll effectively be the same as now? I don't agree with that, given me an imperfect Dem government over the current shitshow any day of the week.
biden said, multiple times, "don't vote for me" in regards to leftists
for my part, this will be the first election since 2004 that i probably won't be voting in literally since i was a child the democrats have been telling me i have to vote for them or else the republicans would get in and it would be my fault, and i went along with it because to some extent they're right, and yet here we are.
But I don't see how not voting fixes that?
there's no reason to think that even if there is an election ... it'll be on the up and up, and even if it is on the up and up there's no reason to be confident biden will win.
Or this?
and even if he does win, there are no police reforms the president is able to make that the police will care about, they will keep murdering people, and there's no reason to believe the democrats won't be just as keen as the republicans to use un-uniformed federal secret police to disappear protesters
So if you don't vote it'll effectively be the same as now? I don't agree with that, given me an imperfect Dem government over the current shitshow any day of the week.
you're right that we have different ideas of how much trouble we're in, but i think you're underestimating the depth of shit we're wading in. this is the most unstable the country's been since the run-up to the civil war, and if there's a path to smooth things out where they don't get much worse first, i can't see it. i try really hard to not be all doom and gloom about this shit because it's a really easy slide from that to straight up cynicism, but i think a lot of people aren't nearly as scared as they should be
The situation in the US is serious, definitely - but I don't believe this is the most unstable the US has been since the Civil War. I'm not sure it eclipses the mid-to-late 1960s at this point.
That's not to say it won't get worse, and I agree with you - I think it will. But I believe a Dem gov't moving forward will help to start set things right. Will it fix everything in 4 years? Nope, but it's a start.
There's definitely a great deal of work to do.
i guess i gotta ask how a democrat in charge will fix things. what are steps that biden can take that it's realistic to expect that he might take that will slow down the collapse of Social Order? keeping in mind that if we're unlucky climate instability will be completely undeniable by the end of his hypothetical first term, that's an even worse existential threat that the democrats also aren't taking seriously
there's probably nothing i can say that will convince you of how unstable things are, but consider that in the 60s and 70s the civil rights movement had high-profile leaders that the state could murder to take steam out of the movement. there's no such structural weakness now, the folks out there doing the thing have learned from that history as well as a bunch of leaders from the original ferguson BLM who got mysteriously dead (some of them while obama was still president, for what that's worth)
also yeah @Garlic Bread brought up a very good point, the man himself said that if you believe tara reade, you shouldn't vote for him. so i'm taking his advice and not voting for him. it sticks in my craw being asked to choose between the lesser of two sex criminals
whoever the next non biden/harris democrat presidential nominee will be is currently registered republican
I don't think we have seen the last of former mayor probable CIA agent Pete.
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Shortytouching the meatIntergalactic Cool CourtRegistered Userregular
I bet he worked for the CIA the same way he worked for mckinsey, in that he wrote papers arguing we should chum sharks with pakistani orphans or something
for my part, this will be the first election since 2004 that i probably won't be voting in literally since i was a child the democrats have been telling me i have to vote for them or else the republicans would get in and it would be my fault, and i went along with it because to some extent they're right, and yet here we are.
But I don't see how not voting fixes that?
there's no reason to think that even if there is an election ... it'll be on the up and up, and even if it is on the up and up there's no reason to be confident biden will win.
Or this?
and even if he does win, there are no police reforms the president is able to make that the police will care about, they will keep murdering people, and there's no reason to believe the democrats won't be just as keen as the republicans to use un-uniformed federal secret police to disappear protesters
So if you don't vote it'll effectively be the same as now? I don't agree with that, given me an imperfect Dem government over the current shitshow any day of the week.
biden said, multiple times, "don't vote for me" in regards to leftists
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I know there's a lot of misinfo and disinfo flying around, but wasn't that statement by Biden made during the primary? As a reference to the primary election?
for my part, this will be the first election since 2004 that i probably won't be voting in literally since i was a child the democrats have been telling me i have to vote for them or else the republicans would get in and it would be my fault, and i went along with it because to some extent they're right, and yet here we are.
But I don't see how not voting fixes that?
there's no reason to think that even if there is an election ... it'll be on the up and up, and even if it is on the up and up there's no reason to be confident biden will win.
Or this?
and even if he does win, there are no police reforms the president is able to make that the police will care about, they will keep murdering people, and there's no reason to believe the democrats won't be just as keen as the republicans to use un-uniformed federal secret police to disappear protesters
So if you don't vote it'll effectively be the same as now? I don't agree with that, given me an imperfect Dem government over the current shitshow any day of the week.
biden said, multiple times, "don't vote for me" in regards to leftists
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I know there's a lot of misinfo and disinfo flying around, but wasn't that statement by Biden made during the primary? As a reference to the primary election?
it kinda doesn't matter, a candidate for office shouldn't ever put themself in a position where it could misconstrued the circumstances under which they say "don't vote for me" or "you should vote for someone else," for exactly this reason
i guess i gotta ask how a democrat in charge will fix things.
They won't, there's too much to fix and it runs too deep. They can at least try to arrest the current slide and start to rein in the bullshit. E.g., they're making noises about police reform etc.
Will it all be shiny and fixed in four years? Fuck no, but the alternative is another four years of this Republican horseshit. If anything, it'll be worse - they'll be further emboldened.
One thing I do believe: not voting won't fix these problems, and could well make them worse if the Republicans stay in power.
what are steps that biden can take that it's realistic to expect that he might take that will slow down the collapse of Social Order? keeping in mind that if we're unlucky climate instability will be completely undeniable by the end of his hypothetical first term, that's an even worse existential threat that the democrats also aren't taking seriously
1. Get the FBI focussed on far-right groups and their recruiting
2. Mandate police body cameras with penalties for inactivity (e.g., if it's not on film, it's inadmissible)
3. Work with the legislature to end qualified immunity for police
4. Stop politicising e.g. the CDC and let them do their work
There's some concrete examples. Would a putative Dem executive / legislature actually do all this? I don't know, but I do know the Republicans definitely won't. Not voting certainly won't get us any closer to where we need to be. There isn't anything I can think of that solves the problems the USA faces in a single presidential term, so the best that can be done it to make a start down a long road.
I agree with you that climate change is an existential threat, but I'm pretty sure the Republicans won't do anything, even with the evidence punching them in the face. They might even make it worse. After all, they've basically ignored/downplayed a pandemic that's killed 180,000+ in a few months.
there's probably nothing i can say that will convince you of how unstable things are, but consider that in the 60s and 70s the civil rights movement had high-profile leaders that the state could murder to take steam out of the movement.
Hmmm, the deaths of high-profile leaders don't always take the steam out of things (e.g. MLK's assassination, Bobby Sands et al, etc), but ...
there's no such structural weakness now, the folks out there doing the thing have learned from that history as well as a bunch of leaders from the original ferguson BLM who got mysteriously dead (some of them while obama was still president, for what that's worth)
This actually reassures me! I think this is the start of genuine change, and the wider movement against police violence for example is now self-sustaining and "popular" in a way that I haven't seen before now. I don't think that requires dangerous social instability to maintain.
I've never viewed Obama in quite as positive a light as most of the Democrats, FWIW. There were definitely problems there.
it sticks in my craw being asked to choose between the lesser of two sex criminals
I can imagine, and I'm not going to throw shit in your direction for it. You have my sympathies being faced with that.
I do hope you can throw your lot in with the Dems again, even though I know you'll be suppressing an overwhelming urge to vomit as you do so.
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
for my part, this will be the first election since 2004 that i probably won't be voting in literally since i was a child the democrats have been telling me i have to vote for them or else the republicans would get in and it would be my fault, and i went along with it because to some extent they're right, and yet here we are.
But I don't see how not voting fixes that?
there's no reason to think that even if there is an election ... it'll be on the up and up, and even if it is on the up and up there's no reason to be confident biden will win.
Or this?
and even if he does win, there are no police reforms the president is able to make that the police will care about, they will keep murdering people, and there's no reason to believe the democrats won't be just as keen as the republicans to use un-uniformed federal secret police to disappear protesters
So if you don't vote it'll effectively be the same as now? I don't agree with that, given me an imperfect Dem government over the current shitshow any day of the week.
biden said, multiple times, "don't vote for me" in regards to leftists
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I know there's a lot of misinfo and disinfo flying around, but wasn't that statement by Biden made during the primary? As a reference to the primary election?
"The fact is that over those eight years, there were 3 million people that were deported and separated from their families," Rojas said.
Cutting Rojas off, Biden said, "You should vote for Trump. You should vote for Trump."
"No, no. I'm not going to do that," Rojas responded.
It's almost like they're holding our vote hostage, with the help of every "Vote Blue No Matter Who" chud that refuses to hold them accountable for literally anything
"Vote for someone else in the primary cause I am not the candidate for you" kinda follows through to the general.
He still isnt the candidate for the Left. But he's the only goddamn option now if you want to vote.
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MaddocI'm Bobbin Threadbare, are you my mother?Registered Userregular
They don't care what you think because they own your vote already no matter what, there is no pushing them in any direction because they are not beholden to you in any way
They don't care what you think because they own your vote already no matter what, there is no pushing them in any direction because they are not beholden to you in any way
If that's true then why have they come out with relatively more progressive platforms?
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turtleantGunpla Dadis the best.Registered Userregular
I'm gonna be honest anytime somebody starts cutting posts up into individual quoted sentences I check the fuck out
"Vote for someone else in the primary cause I am not the candidate for you" kinda follows through to the general.
He still isnt the candidate for the Left. But he's the only goddamn option now if you want to vote.
well, if you want your vote to count for anything
the green party ticket is pretty good this year, and gloria la riva of the PSL is the real thing, and her running mate until he dropped out due to shitty health from being falsely imprisoned for 44 years was leonard peltier, which is a pretty good statement right about now
for my part, this will be the first election since 2004 that i probably won't be voting in literally since i was a child the democrats have been telling me i have to vote for them or else the republicans would get in and it would be my fault, and i went along with it because to some extent they're right, and yet here we are.
But I don't see how not voting fixes that?
there's no reason to think that even if there is an election ... it'll be on the up and up, and even if it is on the up and up there's no reason to be confident biden will win.
Or this?
and even if he does win, there are no police reforms the president is able to make that the police will care about, they will keep murdering people, and there's no reason to believe the democrats won't be just as keen as the republicans to use un-uniformed federal secret police to disappear protesters
So if you don't vote it'll effectively be the same as now? I don't agree with that, given me an imperfect Dem government over the current shitshow any day of the week.
biden said, multiple times, "don't vote for me" in regards to leftists
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I know there's a lot of misinfo and disinfo flying around, but wasn't that statement by Biden made during the primary? As a reference to the primary election?
what's it matter? if he doesn't want to campaign towards me for a primary when, he's not going to suddenly care about the issues he said "don't vote for me" about
Posts
i agree that the normal democratic billionaire starfucker thing isn't necessary, but i don't see small-donation leftist insurgent candidates winning in enough numbers that they could take over the party in less time than it'd take to start something better from scratch
for what it's worth i agree that we don't have enough time to spin up a whole new party, i just don't think there's time to take over the democrats either
hitting hot metal with hammers
i know there are difficulties in a new party and shit, smarter people than me have already talked about it here
but it's both baffling and enraging to me to see so many posts here saying to give up the fight before it's even started because "might lose!" when people have been out getting beaten, getting killed fighting against heavily armed police forces for the past 3 months
to be told give up and vote for joe fucking biden
Wait, wait, so let me get this straight. Some random guy just handed a child a rifle and told him to go defend an auto shop? Who is this guy?
Oh don't get me wrong, there's no sure thing. I just think there's more hope for useful change in a take over than trying to start all over.
also your fuckin' sig gets me every time
hitting hot metal with hammers
There's indications Harris was solidly liberal as a DA, even if that's like saying "the shortest giant in the room".
Biden has actually made promising noises about reforming the police, such as calling for bans on chokeholds, more federal oversight, mandatory data collection, funding based on whether the police "meet certain basic standards of decency and honorableness". Pretty weaksauce, but it's something.
As for other things he's done since then that might speak to how he thinks, I remember him as being vocally against the Republican's constitutional amendment against same-sex marriage (having previously voted in favour of DOMA etc), and he apparently pushed Obama into supporting same-sex marriage. Again, hardly an explosion of awesome but it does show something important (to me, at least); a capacity for evolution in his positions, and in the right direction IMO.
This might be one reason why I'm not as down on Biden as you are; I think he has actually shown significant capability to change his mind and grow through the years, and some important changes are both recent and prior to running for prez.
It does, and I appreciate you engaging in the way you did. I do view him in a different light to you though, particularly as he seems to have made significant changes to how he thinks in recent times.
They don't! However, I believe that to move forward politically, we need to properly assess where we are. And it's not great, but nor do I think it's as bad as you suggest. I think there's promise there, but we must continue to hold them to account.
Full disclosure
1. I was hoping for a Warren/Harris ticket for president, even though I knew I was almost certainly never going to get it.
2. I'm British, and I watched the Labour Party throw away what could have been a win in a recent U.K. general election at least partly because they were so busy infighting and talking shit about their own candidates. If there's one thing the right wing does, it's move and vote in lockstep for whatever goblin they nominate.
3. I'm a liberal immigrant married to a liberal Muslim immigrant in a red state. I have only become steadily more frightened by what I see, and I'm very much hoping for a Dem win even with compromises made to get there. YMMV, obviously.
My ol' Grampappy earned himself a few lumps of cast metal to pin on his chest for getting rid of nazis, I reckon that's a family tradition worth observing.
Mmmm, rubber bullets cost more than regular old ball ammo, save some taxpayer money, I reckon.
how do leftists take over a party that shuns them and invites Republicans to the dnc?
serious question. i just don't know how anyone holds out hope of the democrats moving to the left after that fuckin convention
It's like that bit in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe when Santa hands the children their weapons. Magic!
it's the opposite; i have incredible hope in the people actually fighting for a better world
for my part, this will be the first election since 2004 that i probably won't be voting in. literally since i was a child the democrats have been telling me i have to vote for them or else the republicans would get in and it would be my fault, and i went along with it because to some extent they're right, and yet here we are. i voted for clinton last time around, even though she's a personification of everything i dislike about politics, because president trump would obviously be a disaster, and she and the party leadership have spent the intervening time blaming their loss on everything but the shitty campaign. there's no reason to think that even if there is an election (i think the republicans are gonna suddenly get very worried about the 'rona in maybe early october, after they've succeeded in destroying the postal service completely to neutralize the threat of mail-in voting) it'll be on the up and up, and even if it is on the up and up there's no reason to be confident biden will win. and even if he does win, there are no police reforms the president is able to make that the police will care about, they will keep murdering people, and there's no reason to believe the democrats won't be just as keen as the republicans to use un-uniformed federal secret police to disappear protesters
you're right that we have different ideas of how much trouble we're in, but i think you're underestimating the depth of shit we're wading in. this is the most unstable the country's been since the run-up to the civil war, and if there's a path to smooth things out where they don't get much worse first, i can't see it. i try really hard to not be all doom and gloom about this shit because it's a really easy slide from that to straight up cynicism, but i think a lot of people aren't nearly as scared as they should be
make friends with your neighbors so you have people to fall back on just in case, learn some first aid and basic trauma care. hoarding supplies is mostly not useful but having a week or two of canned food stashed away never hurt anyone
hitting hot metal with hammers
You all doubted but here we are
Two parts, the first is social campaigning. Democrats don't really believe in much so if we can get them on board with some stuff if we convince 51% of the population to get on board. Like with gay marriage. Obviously this doesn't work that well when capital interests are in conflict. The other is really not glamorous but its just boots on pavement door knocking campaigning. The Democrats are run by a bunch of moderates and conservatives in deep blue seats. Once we can gut them out the centrists in seats that we'd struggle to take will have less institutional backing for their bullshit.
Oh god, if this were true every bone in both of my hands would be dust.
I've always found that kind of read just so uncharitable. Like at the very least, the person has taken the time to write out a post and put it here, they must care and think there's some hope for improvement at least a little. Someone who genuinely thought it was a 100% chance of going straight to fucktown wouldn't even bother.
gun people dot jpg
hitting hot metal with hammers
i got anxiety!!!
and also have been completely alone for 5 days now without even my dogs to talk to so i've been too online
My bet is the owner of the two auto shops or a upper employee of them. Rittenhouse's version makes sense that way. The owner decides that the cops weren't going to save the second auto shop, so he gives guns to Rittenhouse and his friends and sends them there. Kid is dumb enough to not realize that he's being sent as cannon fodder, has a confrontation with protesters, panics, and the inevitable happens.
ol' richard spencer did say he's voting straight ticket democrat this year
hitting hot metal with hammers
But I don't see how not voting fixes that?
Or this?
So if you don't vote it'll effectively be the same as now? I don't agree with that, given me an imperfect Dem government over the current shitshow any day of the week.
The situation in the US is serious, definitely - but I don't believe this is the most unstable the US has been since the Civil War. I'm not sure it eclipses the mid-to-late 1960s at this point.
That's not to say it won't get worse, and I agree with you - I think it will. But I believe a Dem gov't moving forward will help to start set things right. Will it fix everything in 4 years? Nope, but it's a start.
There's definitely a great deal of work to do.
biden said, multiple times, "don't vote for me" in regards to leftists
i guess i gotta ask how a democrat in charge will fix things. what are steps that biden can take that it's realistic to expect that he might take that will slow down the collapse of Social Order? keeping in mind that if we're unlucky climate instability will be completely undeniable by the end of his hypothetical first term, that's an even worse existential threat that the democrats also aren't taking seriously
there's probably nothing i can say that will convince you of how unstable things are, but consider that in the 60s and 70s the civil rights movement had high-profile leaders that the state could murder to take steam out of the movement. there's no such structural weakness now, the folks out there doing the thing have learned from that history as well as a bunch of leaders from the original ferguson BLM who got mysteriously dead (some of them while obama was still president, for what that's worth)
also yeah @Garlic Bread brought up a very good point, the man himself said that if you believe tara reade, you shouldn't vote for him. so i'm taking his advice and not voting for him. it sticks in my craw being asked to choose between the lesser of two sex criminals
hitting hot metal with hammers
I don't think we have seen the last of former mayor probable CIA agent Pete.
e: bonus anarchist laffs under the spoiler
hitting hot metal with hammers
Please correct me if I'm wrong, I know there's a lot of misinfo and disinfo flying around, but wasn't that statement by Biden made during the primary? As a reference to the primary election?
it kinda doesn't matter, a candidate for office shouldn't ever put themself in a position where it could misconstrued the circumstances under which they say "don't vote for me" or "you should vote for someone else," for exactly this reason
hitting hot metal with hammers
They won't, there's too much to fix and it runs too deep. They can at least try to arrest the current slide and start to rein in the bullshit. E.g., they're making noises about police reform etc.
Will it all be shiny and fixed in four years? Fuck no, but the alternative is another four years of this Republican horseshit. If anything, it'll be worse - they'll be further emboldened.
One thing I do believe: not voting won't fix these problems, and could well make them worse if the Republicans stay in power.
1. Get the FBI focussed on far-right groups and their recruiting
2. Mandate police body cameras with penalties for inactivity (e.g., if it's not on film, it's inadmissible)
3. Work with the legislature to end qualified immunity for police
4. Stop politicising e.g. the CDC and let them do their work
There's some concrete examples. Would a putative Dem executive / legislature actually do all this? I don't know, but I do know the Republicans definitely won't. Not voting certainly won't get us any closer to where we need to be. There isn't anything I can think of that solves the problems the USA faces in a single presidential term, so the best that can be done it to make a start down a long road.
I agree with you that climate change is an existential threat, but I'm pretty sure the Republicans won't do anything, even with the evidence punching them in the face. They might even make it worse. After all, they've basically ignored/downplayed a pandemic that's killed 180,000+ in a few months.
Hmmm, the deaths of high-profile leaders don't always take the steam out of things (e.g. MLK's assassination, Bobby Sands et al, etc), but ...
This actually reassures me! I think this is the start of genuine change, and the wider movement against police violence for example is now self-sustaining and "popular" in a way that I haven't seen before now. I don't think that requires dangerous social instability to maintain.
I've never viewed Obama in quite as positive a light as most of the Democrats, FWIW. There were definitely problems there.
I can imagine, and I'm not going to throw shit in your direction for it. You have my sympathies being faced with that.
I do hope you can throw your lot in with the Dems again, even though I know you'll be suppressing an overwhelming urge to vomit as you do so.
Gladly!
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/elections/2019/11/22/joe-biden-tells-immigration-activist-you-should-vote-trump/4273814002/
It's almost like they're holding our vote hostage, with the help of every "Vote Blue No Matter Who" chud that refuses to hold them accountable for literally anything
He still isnt the candidate for the Left. But he's the only goddamn option now if you want to vote.
It is the left version of 2A single issue voters. Literally no part of either platform matters.
2A good so vote Red
GOP are unapologetic monsters so vote Blue
If that's true then why have they come out with relatively more progressive platforms?
well, if you want your vote to count for anything
the green party ticket is pretty good this year, and gloria la riva of the PSL is the real thing, and her running mate until he dropped out due to shitty health from being falsely imprisoned for 44 years was leonard peltier, which is a pretty good statement right about now
hitting hot metal with hammers
what's it matter? if he doesn't want to campaign towards me for a primary when, he's not going to suddenly care about the issues he said "don't vote for me" about
Hahaha, get his ass