I'm actually kinda proud that I have no idea what any of that means.
Yea, I thought about looking it up, then was like Nahhhh. Any of ya'll watch InRange or Forgotten weapons? They've been posting their What Would Stoner Do 2020 build AR15 and it looks pretty slick. They have a new polymer lower and it looks nice. Full gun pre-order is under $1700.
I'm actually kinda proud that I have no idea what any of that means.
Yea, I thought about looking it up, then was like Nahhhh. Any of ya'll watch InRange or Forgotten weapons? They've been posting their What Would Stoner Do 2020 build AR15 and it looks pretty slick. They have a new polymer lower and it looks nice. Full gun pre-order is under $1700.
Their take-down of the 2020 Shot show is hilarious.
Honestly my favorite shot show content was them covering the volleyfire? Mostly cause it was nice to see a manufacturer of...anything really... being honest about their product. It's not for everyone, it's for a very specific target audience. Its not trying to change the world or reinvent the wheel. Just be good at a narrow application. And they were honest about it.
I honestly couldnt finish. I know the Franklin one cause a huge blow up.
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
I used to work in the Archery industry. The folks we sent were our actual sales and marketing folk who knew our product inside and out. You had to be active in the archery scene to have a customer facing job.
None of our bows were ever terribly gimmicky either. So that helped a lot.
I'm actually kinda proud that I have no idea what any of that means.
Yea, I thought about looking it up, then was like Nahhhh. Any of ya'll watch InRange or Forgotten weapons? They've been posting their What Would Stoner Do 2020 build AR15 and it looks pretty slick. They have a new polymer lower and it looks nice. Full gun pre-order is under $1700.
InRange and Forgotten Weapons have quickly become my absolute favorite gun channels and the WWSD original series was great. I'm super stoked for the WWSD 2020 and wish I could get one in California. If the Cali AWB stuff ever gets removed, that's the first rifle I'm gonna get.
InRange and Forgotten Weapons have rapidly become one of the few gun channels I can stomach. Their videos are generally fun and informative. The .22lr machine gun episode was really neat to watch, as was the WW1 machine gun eps, just from an engineering perspective. Less reactionary gross politics, more nerding out about how the devices work please.
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webguy20I spend too much time on the InternetRegistered Userregular
InRange and Forgotten Weapons have rapidly become one of the few gun channels I can stomach. Their videos are generally fun and informative. The .22lr machine gun episode was really neat to watch, as was the WW1 machine gun eps, just from an engineering perspective. Less reactionary gross politics, more nerding out about how the devices work please.
The home defense shotgun tests were hilarious. They hated the pistol grip one so bad.
Don't worry, it's going to be hard enough to beat the M4 design that we'll spend millions and millions of dollars and then decide to keep what we've got because it actually works really well, or deploy some sort of "modernization" kit.
General Dynamics note that the suppressor will last the life of the barrel it is mounted on and that the design “minimizes flash and reduces sound levels to less than the requirement”.
But if this implies the suppressor was necessary to get it under the dB requirements, then it sounds like a strong candidate if this is one of those competitions where they award points for arbitrary complexity.
Don't worry, it's going to be hard enough to beat the M4 design that we'll spend millions and millions of dollars and then decide to keep what we've got because it actually works really well, or deploy some sort of "modernization" kit.
I'm expecting this to be the F-35 of rifles. Were gonna sink so much money into it that we develop a gamblers fallacy mentality with it.
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ThegreatcowLord of All BaconsWashington State - It's Wet up here innit? Registered Userregular
Yeah honestly I can't see any of these being generally adopted given the costs involved. At most I can see a few hush hush spec ops dudes use them for a while like they did with the SCAR program before retiring them for the good ol' M4, or adopting elements of the developed technology like the XM-25 grenade launcher that briefly was adopted out of the OICW program. Probably the one I can see moving on is the LMG variant that they're testing as I know the Army has been trying to move away from the M249s for a while now. Hell the Marines already did so with the M27 program so it stands to reason some kinda replacement will be adpoted somehow.
Don't worry, it's going to be hard enough to beat the M4 design that we'll spend millions and millions of dollars and then decide to keep what we've got because it actually works really well, or deploy some sort of "modernization" kit.
"GD-OTS awarded M4 modernization contract to produce new, quieter barrels."
Aww, but it looks really cool and that is my sole criteria for judging guns.
Ironically, the guns that were designed for aesthetics first (the TAVOR, and the XM8 iirc) look like shit.
Hey! I've always thought the Tavor, AUG, and F2000 all look super cool.
But, then again, I have a soft spot for bullpups.
I like bullpups because they look slightly odd as a result of trying to cram even more gun into the same amount of space. If the suppressor on that rm277 really is a kludge to squeeze 170db* of noise into a 120db* spec, then that's basically an extension of the same principle, and I like it even more for it.
I also dig the idea of casings you could theoretically go scoop up with a magnetic roomba, dump in a hopper, melt down, and reprint.
Which is probably not a thing the DOD would ever actually do, but it might wind up in a survival/crafting game if the DOD legitimizes the cartridges.
Recyclable is such a strange thing to aim for. Most brass cases are already recyclable, but its not done by the military.
Pretty sure weight is the main point of plastic casings. I'd like to think the recyclability was an ethical decision, since they can't be reloaded, but it could just be a convenient property of the polymer they went with.
A polymer case is an insulator rather than a conductor. When the cartridge fires, the case contains the heat and pressure and directs it all down the barrel. Instead of super-heating brass that then heats the chamber around it, the only heat the entire barrel sees is what's found in the bore. Heat will certainly move from the barrel around the bore back into the chamber area, but keeping the heat out initially will reduce how quickly the AR bolt heats up, thereby prolonging its life.
Huh, interesting. Is cook off still an issue or do they solve that somehow? Ooh, just read the link, interesting. Although if it melts that might cause other issues.
My guesses: Whichever is cheapest. But... not Textron (unless there's significant changes from the patent drawing, which there will be, so maybe its not so bad?).
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
Costco is selling online what looks to be a nice-ish 18 cubic foot Bighorn safe for $550 down from 750, free shipping and free delivery into your home (ground floor).
It's fire rated (ish), and I've heard some previous models were a little dicey about the electronic keypad and sometimes fit and finish aren't 100%
But, it's still 350 pounds of large gun safe for as cheap as you'll find it and then shipped and delivered free on top of that. I'm ordering one and keeping it boxed until I get the basement room drywalled how I want, then it's getting bolted in.
SummaryJudgment on
Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
Costco is selling online what looks to be a nice-ish 18 cubic foot Bighorn safe for $550 down from 750, free shipping and free delivery into your home (ground floor).
It's fire rated (ish), and I've heard some previous models were a little dicey about the electronic keypad and sometimes fit and finish aren't 100%
But, it's still 350 pounds of large gun safe for as cheap as you'll find it and then shipped and delivered free on top of that. I'm ordering one and keeping it boxed until I get the basement room drywalled how I want, then it's getting bolted in.
In the 12 minutes since you posted this, it's sold out.
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
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KadokenGiving Ends to my Friends and it Feels StupendousRegistered Userregular
edited September 2020
Hey I kind of want to get into guns for fun and personal home protection (looking for a shotgun and thinking of a Mossberg 500 for that purpose). Do WW2 weapons just suck compared to modern ones and should I avoid them even though I've fired a PPSH and a Thompson so many times in vidya that I want to try them in real life?
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
Costco is selling online what looks to be a nice-ish 18 cubic foot Bighorn safe for $550 down from 750, free shipping and free delivery into your home (ground floor).
It's fire rated (ish), and I've heard some previous models were a little dicey about the electronic keypad and sometimes fit and finish aren't 100%
But, it's still 350 pounds of large gun safe for as cheap as you'll find it and then shipped and delivered free on top of that. I'm ordering one and keeping it boxed until I get the basement room drywalled how I want, then it's getting bolted in.
In the 12 minutes since you posted this, it's sold out.
I checked after you posted this and it's available in my ZIP, they must be doing availability by location. That was my cue to buy one, though.
Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
Hey I kind of want to get into guns for fun and personal protection (looking for a shotgun and thinking of a Mossberg 500 for that purpose). Do WW2 weapons just suck compared to modern ones and should I avoid them even though I've fired a PPSH and a Thompson so many times in vidya that I want to try them in real life?
Well, I mean
As far as the PPSH and Thompson - they certainly don't suck but they're only making reproductions and they're not going to be machine guns. If it's really a bucket list thing for you there's a couple ranges if you ever make it out to Las Vegas that will rent you the fully automatic real deal. You can, however, order any number of surplus bolt-action rifles if that's your thing though, which are cheap and historically interesting and go bang. I wouldn't really hunt with them (though you 100% can) or do any serious kind of target shooting for accuracy.
A Mossberg 500 is pretty much the gold standard for pump-action shotguns and will do nicely for fun and protection, like you mentioned. You can put an 18.5" barrel on it for your home, you can shoot clays with it, you can do birding or small game, it'll pretty much do whatever you want based on what kind of barrel and what kind of shells you have. No worries about buying used if that's an option.
Get a version with a proper stock - the pistol grip or other similar ones are kind of dumb range toys.
If you wanted to do more with clays or skeet shooting, the Mossberg 930 is semi-automatic.
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Gabriel_Pitt(effective against Russian warships)Registered Userregular
It still lets me add it to the cart (didn't actually try and check out). Tempting, if I had $550 burning a hole in my pocket, but once I was able to bust the corrosion loose holding those nuts in place on that cabinet I was asking about way back when, and put new locks on the door, it does everything I need it to.
Just doesn't look as cool as something that's got a big old three-prong bolt retractor on the front though.
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SummaryJudgmentGrab the hottest iron you can find, stride in the Tower’s front doorRegistered Userregular
It still lets me add it to the cart (didn't actually try and check out). Tempting, if I had $550 burning a hole in my pocket, but once I was able to bust the corrosion loose holding those nuts in place on that cabinet I was asking about way back when, and put new locks on the door, it does everything I need it to.
Just doesn't look as cool as something that's got a big old three-prong bolt retractor on the front though.
I've got a finished basement and we entertain down there, I just want them all in a room and out of sight and out of mind instead of in a pile of locked cases in the corner (or all over the floor of that small storeroom).
I mean, they're insured, there's nothing that would really bother me in terms of loss from theft or fire (and frankly I'd have bigger fish to fry at that point), i just want all that shit in a (locked, steel) box.
A Security Cabinet would be fine for my purposes but for the fact that they're too small.
SummaryJudgment on
Some days Blue wonders why anyone ever bothered making numbers so small; other days she supposes even infinity needs to start somewhere.
Hey I kind of want to get into guns for fun and personal home protection (looking for a shotgun and thinking of a Mossberg 500 for that purpose). Do WW2 weapons just suck compared to modern ones and should I avoid them even though I've fired a PPSH and a Thompson so many times in vidya that I want to try them in real life?
Suck is a bit strong. But there are a number of drawbacks.
First there's the issue of ammo. Pistol calibers from the era are still commonly in use. Rifle calibers are different. 5.56 mm and .308 are far more commonly used than the 30-06 that feeds an M1 Garand. 7.62 x 39 mm is more common than the 7.62 x 54 mm used in a Mosin-Nagant. Prices reflect that.
Second, a lot of those rifles are just less modern in design. Sights can have different and less useful designs, mounting scopes isn't as easy, accessories aren't as common.
Third, a lot of those long guns are heavy. This can be because of the larger caliber ammo for the rifles or because they originally had to handle automatic fire for the carbines.
Finally, price. A semi-automatic Thompson is going to be pricier than many .45 ACP carbines of a more modern design. Some weapons from the era that were mass produced with a lot still around like Mosin-Nagants aren't as subject to that but then you deal with needing to find ones in good condition after decades of not being maintained.
They're still neat and all but seldom would be something I recommend to a newbie.
Hey I kind of want to get into guns for fun and personal home protection (looking for a shotgun and thinking of a Mossberg 500 for that purpose). Do WW2 weapons just suck compared to modern ones and should I avoid them even though I've fired a PPSH and a Thompson so many times in vidya that I want to try them in real life?
Suck is a bit strong. But there are a number of drawbacks.
First there's the issue of ammo. Pistol calibers from the era are still commonly in use. Rifle calibers are different. 5.56 mm and .308 are far more commonly used than the 30-06 that feeds an M1 Garand. 7.62 x 39 mm is more common than the 7.62 x 51 mm used in a Mosin-Nagant. Prices reflect that.
Second, a lot of those rifles are just less modern in design. Sights can have different and less useful designs, mounting scopes isn't as easy, accessories aren't as common.
Third, a lot of those long guns are heavy. This can be because of the larger caliber ammo for the rifles or because they originally had to handle automatic fire for the carbines.
Finally, price. A semi-automatic Thompson is going to be pricier than many .45 ACP carbines of a more modern design. Some weapons from the era that were mass produced with a lot still around like Mosin-Nagants aren't as subject to that but then you deal with needing to find ones in good condition after decades of not being maintained.
They're still neat and all but seldom would be something I recommend to a newbie.
I find the bolded pretty funny because from my family history, .30-06 was the more commonly used caliber among the folks I knew who hunted. Now, I know that .223/5.56 and .308/7.62x51 is more commonly found (as you said, which is reflected by the market price difference between the three), but I just find it funny.
Also, just a small clarification question: did you mean 7.62x54 for the Mosin-Nagant caliber?
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| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
Hey I kind of want to get into guns for fun and personal home protection (looking for a shotgun and thinking of a Mossberg 500 for that purpose). Do WW2 weapons just suck compared to modern ones and should I avoid them even though I've fired a PPSH and a Thompson so many times in vidya that I want to try them in real life?
Suck is a bit strong. But there are a number of drawbacks.
First there's the issue of ammo. Pistol calibers from the era are still commonly in use. Rifle calibers are different. 5.56 mm and .308 are far more commonly used than the 30-06 that feeds an M1 Garand. 7.62 x 39 mm is more common than the 7.62 x 51 mm used in a Mosin-Nagant. Prices reflect that.
Second, a lot of those rifles are just less modern in design. Sights can have different and less useful designs, mounting scopes isn't as easy, accessories aren't as common.
Third, a lot of those long guns are heavy. This can be because of the larger caliber ammo for the rifles or because they originally had to handle automatic fire for the carbines.
Finally, price. A semi-automatic Thompson is going to be pricier than many .45 ACP carbines of a more modern design. Some weapons from the era that were mass produced with a lot still around like Mosin-Nagants aren't as subject to that but then you deal with needing to find ones in good condition after decades of not being maintained.
They're still neat and all but seldom would be something I recommend to a newbie.
I find the bolded pretty funny because from my family history, .30-06 was the more commonly used caliber among the folks I knew who hunted. Now, I know that .223/5.56 and .308/7.62x51 is more commonly found (as you said, which is reflected by the market price difference between the three), but I just find it funny.
Also, just a small clarification question: did you mean 7.62x54 for the Mosin-Nagant caliber?
I does depend what you hunt and there is overlap between what .308 and 30-06 are used on. And animals in one area aren't always the same size as in others. Adult doe deer in this area are the size of yearlings in New England.
And yes, I meant 54. There are so many 7.62 calibers.
Hey I kind of want to get into guns for fun and personal home protection (looking for a shotgun and thinking of a Mossberg 500 for that purpose). Do WW2 weapons just suck compared to modern ones and should I avoid them even though I've fired a PPSH and a Thompson so many times in vidya that I want to try them in real life?
Suck is a bit strong. But there are a number of drawbacks.
First there's the issue of ammo. Pistol calibers from the era are still commonly in use. Rifle calibers are different. 5.56 mm and .308 are far more commonly used than the 30-06 that feeds an M1 Garand. 7.62 x 39 mm is more common than the 7.62 x 51 mm used in a Mosin-Nagant. Prices reflect that.
Second, a lot of those rifles are just less modern in design. Sights can have different and less useful designs, mounting scopes isn't as easy, accessories aren't as common.
Third, a lot of those long guns are heavy. This can be because of the larger caliber ammo for the rifles or because they originally had to handle automatic fire for the carbines.
Finally, price. A semi-automatic Thompson is going to be pricier than many .45 ACP carbines of a more modern design. Some weapons from the era that were mass produced with a lot still around like Mosin-Nagants aren't as subject to that but then you deal with needing to find ones in good condition after decades of not being maintained.
They're still neat and all but seldom would be something I recommend to a newbie.
I find the bolded pretty funny because from my family history, .30-06 was the more commonly used caliber among the folks I knew who hunted. Now, I know that .223/5.56 and .308/7.62x51 is more commonly found (as you said, which is reflected by the market price difference between the three), but I just find it funny.
Also, just a small clarification question: did you mean 7.62x54 for the Mosin-Nagant caliber?
I does depend what you hunt and there is overlap between what .308 and 30-06 are used on. And animals in one area aren't always the same size as in others. Adult doe deer in this area are the size of yearlings in New England.
And yes, I meant 54. There are so many 7.62 calibers.
Yeah, which is why I put the provision that it was with my family history. Dad grew up in Vermont and hunted reindeer there...then moose in Alaska. So having the extra punch of the .30-06 was pretty important. And the hunter friends that I know mostly hunt things like bear, more moose, elk, and other larger game.
| Origin/R*SC: Ein7919 | Battle.net: Erlkonig#1448 | XBL: Lexicanum | Steam: Der Erlkönig (the umlaut is important) |
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Yea, I thought about looking it up, then was like Nahhhh. Any of ya'll watch InRange or Forgotten weapons? They've been posting their What Would Stoner Do 2020 build AR15 and it looks pretty slick. They have a new polymer lower and it looks nice. Full gun pre-order is under $1700.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
Their take-down of the 2020 Shot show is hilarious.
Not to open up that can of worms again but it might be good for a person with one arm for self defense.
Plus it just looks fun! Lots of double barrel weapons on the market these days, but they all seem heavy and impractical.
None of our bows were ever terribly gimmicky either. So that helped a lot.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
InRange and Forgotten Weapons have quickly become my absolute favorite gun channels and the WWSD original series was great. I'm super stoked for the WWSD 2020 and wish I could get one in California. If the Cali AWB stuff ever gets removed, that's the first rifle I'm gonna get.
The home defense shotgun tests were hilarious. They hated the pistol grip one so bad.
Origin ID: Discgolfer27
Untappd ID: Discgolfer1981
I don't want us to get laughed at by the cool HK kids.
I can't find the source of the quote: But if this implies the suppressor was necessary to get it under the dB requirements, then it sounds like a strong candidate if this is one of those competitions where they award points for arbitrary complexity.
I'm expecting this to be the F-35 of rifles. Were gonna sink so much money into it that we develop a gamblers fallacy mentality with it.
Wud yoo laek to lern aboot meatz? Look here!
"GD-OTS awarded M4 modernization contract to produce new, quieter barrels."
Ironically, the guns that were designed for aesthetics first (the TAVOR, and the XM8 iirc) look like shit.
Hey! I've always thought the Tavor, AUG, and F2000 all look super cool.
But, then again, I have a soft spot for bullpups.
I like bullpups because they look slightly odd as a result of trying to cram even more gun into the same amount of space. If the suppressor on that rm277 really is a kludge to squeeze 170db* of noise into a 120db* spec, then that's basically an extension of the same principle, and I like it even more for it.
I also dig the idea of casings you could theoretically go scoop up with a magnetic roomba, dump in a hopper, melt down, and reprint.
Which is probably not a thing the DOD would ever actually do, but it might wind up in a survival/crafting game if the DOD legitimizes the cartridges.
*(Made up numbers are made up)
https://www.gunsandammo.com/editorial/true-velocitys-new-polymer-cased-ammunition/247607
Task and Purpose has a round up on the three finalists and their new ammo:
My guesses: Whichever is cheapest. But... not Textron (unless there's significant changes from the patent drawing, which there will be, so maybe its not so bad?).
Costco is selling online what looks to be a nice-ish 18 cubic foot Bighorn safe for $550 down from 750, free shipping and free delivery into your home (ground floor).
It's fire rated (ish), and I've heard some previous models were a little dicey about the electronic keypad and sometimes fit and finish aren't 100%
But, it's still 350 pounds of large gun safe for as cheap as you'll find it and then shipped and delivered free on top of that. I'm ordering one and keeping it boxed until I get the basement room drywalled how I want, then it's getting bolted in.
In the 12 minutes since you posted this, it's sold out.
I checked after you posted this and it's available in my ZIP, they must be doing availability by location. That was my cue to buy one, though.
Well, I mean
As far as the PPSH and Thompson - they certainly don't suck but they're only making reproductions and they're not going to be machine guns. If it's really a bucket list thing for you there's a couple ranges if you ever make it out to Las Vegas that will rent you the fully automatic real deal. You can, however, order any number of surplus bolt-action rifles if that's your thing though, which are cheap and historically interesting and go bang. I wouldn't really hunt with them (though you 100% can) or do any serious kind of target shooting for accuracy.
A Mossberg 500 is pretty much the gold standard for pump-action shotguns and will do nicely for fun and protection, like you mentioned. You can put an 18.5" barrel on it for your home, you can shoot clays with it, you can do birding or small game, it'll pretty much do whatever you want based on what kind of barrel and what kind of shells you have. No worries about buying used if that's an option.
Get a version with a proper stock - the pistol grip or other similar ones are kind of dumb range toys.
If you wanted to do more with clays or skeet shooting, the Mossberg 930 is semi-automatic.
Just doesn't look as cool as something that's got a big old three-prong bolt retractor on the front though.
I've got a finished basement and we entertain down there, I just want them all in a room and out of sight and out of mind instead of in a pile of locked cases in the corner (or all over the floor of that small storeroom).
I mean, they're insured, there's nothing that would really bother me in terms of loss from theft or fire (and frankly I'd have bigger fish to fry at that point), i just want all that shit in a (locked, steel) box.
A Security Cabinet would be fine for my purposes but for the fact that they're too small.
Suck is a bit strong. But there are a number of drawbacks.
First there's the issue of ammo. Pistol calibers from the era are still commonly in use. Rifle calibers are different. 5.56 mm and .308 are far more commonly used than the 30-06 that feeds an M1 Garand. 7.62 x 39 mm is more common than the 7.62 x 54 mm used in a Mosin-Nagant. Prices reflect that.
Second, a lot of those rifles are just less modern in design. Sights can have different and less useful designs, mounting scopes isn't as easy, accessories aren't as common.
Third, a lot of those long guns are heavy. This can be because of the larger caliber ammo for the rifles or because they originally had to handle automatic fire for the carbines.
Finally, price. A semi-automatic Thompson is going to be pricier than many .45 ACP carbines of a more modern design. Some weapons from the era that were mass produced with a lot still around like Mosin-Nagants aren't as subject to that but then you deal with needing to find ones in good condition after decades of not being maintained.
They're still neat and all but seldom would be something I recommend to a newbie.
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3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
I find the bolded pretty funny because from my family history, .30-06 was the more commonly used caliber among the folks I knew who hunted. Now, I know that .223/5.56 and .308/7.62x51 is more commonly found (as you said, which is reflected by the market price difference between the three), but I just find it funny.
Also, just a small clarification question: did you mean 7.62x54 for the Mosin-Nagant caliber?
I does depend what you hunt and there is overlap between what .308 and 30-06 are used on. And animals in one area aren't always the same size as in others. Adult doe deer in this area are the size of yearlings in New England.
And yes, I meant 54. There are so many 7.62 calibers.
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3DS: 3454-0268-5595 Battle.net: SteelAngel#1772
Yeah, which is why I put the provision that it was with my family history. Dad grew up in Vermont and hunted reindeer there...then moose in Alaska. So having the extra punch of the .30-06 was pretty important. And the hunter friends that I know mostly hunt things like bear, more moose, elk, and other larger game.
Basically, they cant compete with modern guns. They days of finding kar98ks in a barrel for 200 bucks each are done.
What you do get is a very nice piece of history that is fun to shoot.
Whether that is a trade off you want to make is up to you.
I can post more once I get on my pc when off work.