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[Star Wars] so you didn't send the fish Jedi immediately because...?

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  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    Opty wrote: »
    Xantomas wrote: »
    The whole idea of Order 66 is that it completely took most of the Jedi by surprise. They've been rolling around with these clone troopers that unquestionably follow orders for a whole war and then without any warning at all they get shot in the back. They didn't have any chance to react to danger at all, much less fight back. And that was the plan all along, the only way to kill them all.

    Ahsoka
    didn't survive just because she's overpowered, when Order 66 happened instead of just being wordlessly shot in the back, she was warned by Rex. He struggled and hemmed and hawed and gave her plenty of time to notice something bad was happening and then he shot at her with plenty of warning and right to her face. I'd wager that lots of Jedi would have survived if the betrayal was delayed by a few seconds and they literally got to see it coming.

    To further this:
    I think Rex was only able to give her that small amount of time due to a combination of Obi-Wan/Anakin/Ahsoka being really beloved by their Clone Troopers (I'm pretty sure it's implied during the series the other Jedi's clones don't revere them as much) and because he believed Fives when he told him more or less what was going to happen, a bit of forewarning no other troopers had. His shouting about Fives as he succumbed to his programming led to her figuring out how to fix him, something that could only be done due to her unique circumstances of being on a spaceship with a medbay rather than in the middle of the battlefield like most of the other Jedi, which in turn led to him helping them narrowly escape.
    Similarly, Obi-Wan survived merely because they used artillery on him; since they failed to instantly kill him, even just a few seconds of not being was enough for his escape. Yoda survived because he could tell something was happening with the troopers right with him and there were only a couple, and then he runs right after that.

    All the other Jedi seem to die to a whole lot more than just a couple troopers. Most of them seem to get gunned down by dozens of troopers and almost totally by surprise.
    I read that scene as Yoda sensing all of the other Jedi dying at once and figuring out what was up. But yeah.

  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    Since we're on the subject re order 66/Clone Wars
    clonewars.jpg

  • a nu starta nu start Registered User regular
    I just want to say that "subvert expectations" has quickly become my second most hated phrase. It will soon overtake "emergent gameplay" as my most hated.

    Number One Tricky
  • DonnictonDonnicton Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    a nu start wrote: »
    I just want to say that "subvert expectations" has quickly become my second most hated phrase. It will soon overtake "emergent gameplay" as my most hated.

    But where does it rate in relation to "visceral"?

    Donnicton on
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    hlprmnky wrote: »
    I agree that Finn’s arc in TLJ wasn’t relevant to the main-line plot in that he didn’t succeed in saving the day, and in that his contributions to attempting to save the day didn’t go anywhere. However, there’s a “but that’s the point!” which doesn’t rely upon “subverting expectations” - nobody succeeded in saving the day.
    Not getting to put points on the board is a minor gripe when your team is losing 127-1 without your help. Finn’s arc ends in, as I think I’ve argued before here, about the closest place of anyone to Luke’s arc at the end of ESB - he’s tried to do a bunch of stuff, almost all of it didn’t work, and watching it fail tempered and matured him. Poe’s character arc was similar but more focused on the Wars and less on the Star, if you will. What should have come next is the rising action of the third act, in which Finn is tested by newer, stronger challenges but overcomes them because of, yes, the character development he suffered underwent in the second act.
    Instead: THE DEAD SPEAK! ... here, have a racially-uncontroversial love interest you will never speak to after this day ...wanna do a, fuck, I dunno, cavalry charge? Aaaaaand scene.

    edit: the diaper bag was complete bullshit, however, and definitely should not have made it out of the writer’s room even onto a storyboard.

    On the bolded, pretty much all the attempts at humor in the ST fell flat with me. The quips weren't sharp, some of the timing of the gags caused serious tonal whiplash, other stuff felt like they were placeholder lines that were going to be fleshed out, and almost none of it fleshed out the characters or highlighted aspects of their personality.

    The beginning of TLJ: The 'wrong number' joke wasn't particularly funny, and it just kept going. Not great, but whatever. Then the real problem kicks in when you open with a joke, then have a mass slaughter of all the rebel ships, followed by the diaper gag (which is just fuckawful for all sorts of reasons, it makes the character look stupid, is completely one-note, and makes the Resistance look stupid because they're letting Finn rampage out of the medbay in a diaper), followed by Leia literally slapping down Poe. Joke -> Really Bad Stuff -> Joke -> OT hero slapping an ST hero. None of the jokes are dark or cynical, which would be more fitting with what's happening, they're all crude and lowbrow, and the opening sequence until they go to hyperspace is pretty continuous, so there's no breather to, I dunno, reset your emotional state from funny to not-funny.

    Then there's stuff like the jet pack troopers in RoS, where you get the line "They can fly now?" Which goes nowhere and is a tad goofy since even if the First Order hadn't deployed them before, jet packs have been a thing in the setting since forever, but ignoring that minor problem. The main issue there is that it's just a quip. There's no banter on the subject and the delivery one of surprise, so the joke is just 'they have jet pack troopers and we didn't know about it'. That's it, <McBain>"That's the joke."</McBain>

    Dumping Gwendolyn Christie down the garbage chute, which is just a cheap nostalgia callback and a waste of her talents.

    That's not even getting into the deleted scene from TLJ where one of Finn's old trooper buddies recognizes him, congratulates him on his promotion (in a southern accent no less, which is rather jarring), and pats him on the ass. Again, there's no real banter, just some light cringe humor that is never really resolved or disarmed. At least that scene didn't make it into the movie, but the fact it was even filmed is a crime against the digital storage device it was saved on.

    The OT, and even the PT, had more banter humor. The PT jokes weren't particularly good, but they at least had some meat to them. There was back and forth between characters, even if only for a line or two, that reflected their personality and/or relationship.
    Han Solo: Together again.
    Luke Skywalker: Wouldn't miss it.
    Han Solo: How are we doing?
    Luke Skywalker: The same as always.
    Han Solo: That bad, huh?
    Referencing shared past experiences, showing how close the characters are that those few words can get Han up to speed, and highlighting Han's cynicism.

    Princess Leia Organa: Listen, I don't know who you are, or where you came from, but from now on, you do as I tell you. Okay?
    Han Solo: Look, Your Worshipful-ness, let's get one thing straight. I take orders from just one person: me!
    Princess Leia Organa: Then it's a wonder you're still alive. [about Chewbacca] Will somebody get this big walking carpet out of my way?
    Han Solo: [to himself] No reward is worth this!
    Leia takes shit from nobody, Han's a bit of an idiot and he's in it for the money, and it reinforces the fact (first established when Leia blasted open the garbage chute) that this is no longer the three idiots rescuing Leia, it's a mutual rescue effort with her on equal footing.

    Honestly, the only bit of humor from the ST that landed was Luke bonking Rey with the leaf.

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • jothkijothki Registered User regular
    Yeah, the biggest thing that I'll fault TLJ for is that it needed much, much tighter editing. There were way too many moments that felt jarring, even if they could have easily not have been.

  • FiatilFiatil Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    shryke wrote: »
    The idea that TLJ sidelines Finn is ridiculous. I can understand not liking his story or thinking it's boring or whatever, but his story, driven by and about him, occupies a huge chunk of the movie.

    But it doesn't go anywhere or do anything and keeps him physically separate from a character (who became THE MAIN CHARACTER alongside fascist love boy) who they were setting up to be possibly his love interest. You can argue that TFA set up way too much stuff to actually pull off in a trilogy (something something mystery boxes JJ Abrams), but that was one of the things that it setup. There are clearly large chunks of the audience who were looking forward to that, and it sounds like the actor was hoping for something more important to happen to his character.

    This discussion is in the context of the actor playing Finn being upset with the direction that Finn went. He clearly isn't happy with "well hey at least I took up a lot of screen time in TLJ!". He definitely did. It just felt really meaningless to me, and yeah from the quotes it sure appears like it felt meaningless to the actor portraying him too.

    Fiatil on
  • daveNYCdaveNYC Why universe hate Waspinator? Registered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The idea that TLJ sidelines Finn is ridiculous. I can understand not liking his story or thinking it's boring or whatever, but his story, driven by and about him, occupies a huge chunk of the movie.

    But it doesn't go anywhere or do anything and keeps him physically separate from a character (who became THE MAIN CHARACTER alongside fascist love boy) who they were setting up to be possibly his love interest. You can argue that TFA set up way too much stuff to actually pull off in a trilogy (something something mystery boxes JJ Abrams), but that was one of the things that it setup. There are clearly large chunks of the audience who were looking forward to that, and it sounds like the actor was hoping for something more important to happen to his character.

    This discussion is in the context of the actor playing Finn being upset with the direction that Finn went. He clearly isn't happy with "well hey at least I took up a lot of screen time in TLJ!". He definitely did. It just felt really meaningless to me, and yeah from the quotes it sure appears like it felt meaningless to the actor portraying him too.

    I can understand the actor being upset with what they did to his character in TLJ. If TFA was setting him up as a Jedi and Rey's love interest, then TLJ is one hell of a downgrade if for no other reason than he doesn't get a lightsaber. If someone said I'd be getting a lightsaber in the next movie and all I get is a goat stampede, I'd be pretty damn pissed too. Thing is, even if TLJ took his character in a completely different direction it doesn't change the fact that RoS did nothing to correct that and basically ignored him completely. Nothing was preventing the movie from opening with a distant shot of two people fighting with lightsabers and then zooming in to reveal Rey and Finn training.

    Intro scroll:

    blah blah blah

    blah blah blah

    And on the Resistance outpost of Argle-Bargle, Rey, the last surviving Jedi in the galaxy trains her students for the fight against the oppressive First Order with recruits drawn from across the galaxy and from among her closest comrades...


    Ham-fisted? Yep. Barely setup in the previous two movies? Also true, since the hints in TFA should have been built on in TLJ. But it's no more of an ass pull than pretty much every element that went into RoS, so why the hell not?

    Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    I think my main issue with Finn in TLJ is that he's not the same character as he was at the end of TFA. He goes from a guy who literally stops running after discovering something/someone to fight for, to the point of facing off against Kylo with a weapon that he's bad with (which means almost certain defeat), to once again running away... Not to save or protect Rey as before, but to simply flee with her.

    TLJ essentially resets his arc. He needs to learn to be brave again, despite already marching into the belly of the beast and confronting both Phasma and Kylo.

    Part of his TLJ arc works, most notably answering the question of whether Finn is fighting the FO simply for revenge - to hurt them like they hurt him - or if he's doing it to protect people. But, IMO, that question could've been explored without essentially reverting him to his previous cowardly state. In fact, it's exactly the kind of dilemma that fits the arc of a budding Jedi.

  • MagicPrimeMagicPrime FiresideWizard Registered User regular
    Rey should have lost the Starkiller fight and been taken by Kylo to meet Snoke at the end of TFA. Finn is the one that gets to meet Luke. Luke trains Finn while Rey starts getting training from Kylo Ren. So the through-plot of the movies is Finn Representing the Light, Kylo Ren the Dark and Rey stuck between her friend and a person she has a mysterious connection with - and ultimately deciding where she falls.

    There was room for more than one Jedi protagonist.

    I wanted there to be a lot of Jedi in the Sequel Trilogy. Not as many as the PT, but It would have been nice for Luke to have trained at least 5 or 6 students to become Knights before his temple gets destroyed.

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  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    I think my main issue with Finn in TLJ is that he's not the same character as he was at the end of TFA. He goes from a guy who literally stops running after discovering something/someone to fight for, to the point of facing off against Kylo with a weapon that he's bad with (which means almost certain defeat), to once again running away... Not to save or protect Rey as before, but to simply flee with her.

    TLJ essentially resets his arc. He needs to learn to be brave again, despite already marching into the belly of the beast and confronting both Phasma and Kylo.

    Part of his TLJ arc works, most notably answering the question of whether Finn is fighting the FO simply for revenge - to hurt them like they hurt him - or if he's doing it to protect people. But, IMO, that question could've been explored without essentially reverting him to his previous cowardly state. In fact, it's exactly the kind of dilemma that fits the arc of a budding Jedi.

    For the millionth time in these threads, Finn only cared about himself and Rey at the beginning of TLJ. He wasn't part of the Resistance, his goals had just happened to align with theirs during TFA. TLJ has him come to understand that one can't just "sit out" the conflict, and also comes to understand that being driven by negative emotions is not the right thing to do even if you are fighting against the bad guys.

    Which all works for a budding Jedi, too.

  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Finn should have had some consequences for having his spine destroyed, which he learns to mitigate when Leia trains him. Cut the master codebreaker plot and having a ship that can just leave the chase behind. When Finn and Leia sense Rey return and give herself up, Finn volunteers to go save her, because that's who he is, and Rose volunteers to go along to shut down the tracker. Resolve however you like, but now we have co leads, one physically damaged, one emotionally.

  • GONG-00GONG-00 Registered User regular
    To complete the current cycle of discussion, I will just re-iterate the desire for Filoni to take the creative helm of the franchise.

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  • SiliconStewSiliconStew Registered User regular
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    I think my main issue with Finn in TLJ is that he's not the same character as he was at the end of TFA. He goes from a guy who literally stops running after discovering something/someone to fight for, to the point of facing off against Kylo with a weapon that he's bad with (which means almost certain defeat), to once again running away... Not to save or protect Rey as before, but to simply flee with her.

    TLJ essentially resets his arc. He needs to learn to be brave again, despite already marching into the belly of the beast and confronting both Phasma and Kylo.

    Part of his TLJ arc works, most notably answering the question of whether Finn is fighting the FO simply for revenge - to hurt them like they hurt him - or if he's doing it to protect people. But, IMO, that question could've been explored without essentially reverting him to his previous cowardly state. In fact, it's exactly the kind of dilemma that fits the arc of a budding Jedi.

    Finn did not fight Kylo in TFA because he chose to. He only did it because Kylo stopped him from running away. Again. TLJ didn't "reset" anything with Finn, it starts him exactly where TFA left him. It's only in TLJ that Finn grows and chooses to stop running.

    Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Fiatil wrote: »
    shryke wrote: »
    The idea that TLJ sidelines Finn is ridiculous. I can understand not liking his story or thinking it's boring or whatever, but his story, driven by and about him, occupies a huge chunk of the movie.

    But it doesn't go anywhere or do anything and keeps him physically separate from a character (who became THE MAIN CHARACTER alongside fascist love boy) who they were setting up to be possibly his love interest. You can argue that TFA set up way too much stuff to actually pull off in a trilogy (something something mystery boxes JJ Abrams), but that was one of the things that it setup. There are clearly large chunks of the audience who were looking forward to that, and it sounds like the actor was hoping for something more important to happen to his character.

    This discussion is in the context of the actor playing Finn being upset with the direction that Finn went. He clearly isn't happy with "well hey at least I took up a lot of screen time in TLJ!". He definitely did. It just felt really meaningless to me, and yeah from the quotes it sure appears like it felt meaningless to the actor portraying him too.

    Except it does go places and he does do a lot. It moves him from "man fleeing the empire" to "rebel". Spending a good 3rd or so of the movie devoted to fleshing out and moving forward his character arc. And it sets up a love-triangle between him and Rey and Rose for the 3rd film to resolve.

    And it keeps all the 3 main characters separate, not just Finn. Which isn't that weird. It's the same kind of thing ESB does.

    As for him being a Jedi, TLJ doesn't do anything to stop that plotline. Since he didn't go to Luke at the end of TFA, so it's not like he was gonna be training with Rey. But they could easily have him being trained by Rey in the next film if they had wanted to.

  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    DarkPrimus wrote: »
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    I think my main issue with Finn in TLJ is that he's not the same character as he was at the end of TFA. He goes from a guy who literally stops running after discovering something/someone to fight for, to the point of facing off against Kylo with a weapon that he's bad with (which means almost certain defeat), to once again running away... Not to save or protect Rey as before, but to simply flee with her.

    TLJ essentially resets his arc. He needs to learn to be brave again, despite already marching into the belly of the beast and confronting both Phasma and Kylo.

    Part of his TLJ arc works, most notably answering the question of whether Finn is fighting the FO simply for revenge - to hurt them like they hurt him - or if he's doing it to protect people. But, IMO, that question could've been explored without essentially reverting him to his previous cowardly state. In fact, it's exactly the kind of dilemma that fits the arc of a budding Jedi.

    For the millionth time in these threads, Finn only cared about himself and Rey at the beginning of TLJ. He wasn't part of the Resistance, his goals had just happened to align with theirs during TFA. TLJ has him come to understand that one can't just "sit out" the conflict, and also comes to understand that being driven by negative emotions is not the right thing to do even if you are fighting against the bad guys.

    Which all works for a budding Jedi, too.

    There's nothing mandating that Finn must only care about himself and Rey at the beginning of whatever the film after TFA was going to become. Shit, Poe, the first person he bonded with after he decided to defect from the FO is right there. Does he not somehow count as a friend, too?

    As far as the rest, uh, yeah. That's pretty much what I said, except, for me, it makes more sense for Starkiller Base to be his "not sitting out" decision rather than the jaunt to the casino planet.
    Nightslyr wrote: »
    I think my main issue with Finn in TLJ is that he's not the same character as he was at the end of TFA. He goes from a guy who literally stops running after discovering something/someone to fight for, to the point of facing off against Kylo with a weapon that he's bad with (which means almost certain defeat), to once again running away... Not to save or protect Rey as before, but to simply flee with her.

    TLJ essentially resets his arc. He needs to learn to be brave again, despite already marching into the belly of the beast and confronting both Phasma and Kylo.

    Part of his TLJ arc works, most notably answering the question of whether Finn is fighting the FO simply for revenge - to hurt them like they hurt him - or if he's doing it to protect people. But, IMO, that question could've been explored without essentially reverting him to his previous cowardly state. In fact, it's exactly the kind of dilemma that fits the arc of a budding Jedi.

    Finn did not fight Kylo in TFA because he chose to. He only did it because Kylo stopped him from running away. Again. TLJ didn't "reset" anything with Finn, it starts him exactly where TFA left him. It's only in TLJ that Finn grows and chooses to stop running.

    And yet, Finn could've tried to keep running. When the FO found them on Maz's planet, all he wanted to do was find Rey and run. Despite the fact that they'd likely be captured anyway, or shot down in any attempt to flee (like what happened about an hour or so earlier in the film). The fight at the end of TFA was structured as Finn's turning point. The culmination of his decision to infiltrate Starkiller Base. He stands and confronts the evil before him even though every fiber of his being tells him to run. He sees Rey get injured, gets pissed, and faces his fear. He literally stares down the person he averted his gaze from in the first few moments of the film. It's pretty blatant.

    And then TLJ undoes all of that, puts Finn back to the person he was when they first landed on Maz's planet, and forgets about everything that happened at Starkiller Base. The last 30-45 minutes of TFA might as well not have happened.

  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    Put another way, spending a movie and... what, another half a movie? Maybe more? With Finn just wanting to run away - first by himself, then with Rey - isn't very satisfying to watch. It feels like he's treading water while the other leads - Rey and Kylo - actually have something to do.

  • RedTideRedTide Registered User regular
    Having one Jedi running around in any given movie alone basically undermines a ton of stakes when it comes to them accomplishing their mission or surviving.

    Like imagine if Phantom Menace had featured a Master and Apprentice meeting a young Anakin Skywalker (teen), both of them fighting Maul, the Master still being stabbed - but surviving and the apprentice is the one mortally wounded in the process of defeating Maul/"falls to their death" with him.

    Then you get Jedi Knight Obi Wan (similar in age to Anakin) assigned to said Master to be the Councils eyes and ears as he works on his "special project" apprentice.

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  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    G2qv4ZS.jpg

  • NightslyrNightslyr Registered User regular
    That was during early production, when the soundtrack was written and produced by KC and the Sunshine Band.

  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Comments on the reddit post where I saw that today pointed out it was from a German Star Wars parody thing that Hamill was on, not 'a rejected costume' as the title claimed.

    Kamar on
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    awww.

    (and yet, so many of us who actually remember the 70s were ready to believe...)

    Commander Zoom on
  • hlprmnkyhlprmnky Registered User regular
    It would have dramatically simplified the making of Star Wars: Ice Capades.

    _
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  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Fabulous Funky Jedi

  • emnmnmeemnmnme Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    emnmnme on
  • MazzyxMazzyx Comedy Gold Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Mazzyx on
    u7stthr17eud.png
  • JoolanderJoolander Registered User regular
    Mazzyx wrote: »
    Dancing Star Wars is a tradition!

    https://youtu.be/B-Zbw-wAyO8

    https://youtu.be/6wcygulUAQw

  • KetarKetar Come on upstairs we're having a partyRegistered User regular
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    The high ground looks delicious.

  • DarkPrimusDarkPrimus Registered User regular
    That's a new take on a chocolate lava cake...

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    That Musta' been fard to make

  • KamarKamar Registered User regular
    https://ew.com/tv/mandalorian-season-2-first-look/
    Favreau breaks down their process: “I’ll come up with ideas and sometimes Dave will say, ‘You can’t do this in Star Wars.’ Then I’ll cite examples from the movies, or Clone Wars, to try to use as a justification. I’m like a lawyer talking to a judge; I am to him as he was to George. I won't do anything without Dave's approval. And to his credit, he understands that Stars Wars needs to be fun and ever-evolving.”

    Oftentimes debates on making Star Wars for modern television will hinge on a bit of dialogue like, for instance, the phrase “a dime a dozen.” “There aren’t dimes in Star Wars,” Filoni says. “So how do you get that across? Or should it be avoided altogether?”

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    That reminds me of one of my favorite entries in wookiepedia

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Duck/Legends

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • Dongs GaloreDongs Galore Registered User regular
    obviously the expression would be a decacred a dozen

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    That reminds me of one of my favorite entries in wookiepedia

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Duck/Legends

    Also Han saying "I'll see you in Hell."

  • Ninja Snarl PNinja Snarl P My helmet is my burden. Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered User regular
    obviously the expression would be a decacred a dozen

    Decicred a dozen. Decacred a dozen would mean ten credits a dozen.

  • Munkus BeaverMunkus Beaver You don't have to attend every argument you are invited to. Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPA regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    That reminds me of one of my favorite entries in wookiepedia

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Duck/Legends

    Also Han saying "I'll see you in Hell."

    I mean, that's a bit different. Most cultures have a concept of an afterlife and most have a version of the afterlife that is...for bad people

    Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Fencingsax wrote: »
    That reminds me of one of my favorite entries in wookiepedia

    https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Duck/Legends

    Also Han saying "I'll see you in Hell."

    I mean, that's a bit different. Most cultures have a concept of an afterlife and most have a version of the afterlife that is...for bad people

    Yeah, but the Wookieepedia entry is hilarious.

This discussion has been closed.