Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I've found good luck just dumping a bunch of lasers on my Awesome and running it down the enemy lance's throat.
Next up on my list to obtain are an Archer and a Firestarter, because they sound fun.
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
The Catapult is a fine mech. Dragons suck. Awesomes are a mediocre assault. 75 ton heavies are generally better since they get both higher initiative and more movement for similar payload. Mixing assaults, heavies, and mediums is generally not that great unless you use your heavier mechs as an anvil and your lighter mechs to scout/backstab. I've had great success using a medium as a scout/backstabber, with 2 assaults for soaking fire and a heavy for firepower, but the meta of the game definitely pushes you to have everybody be in the maximum tonnage you can afford (modulo oddities like the Marauder).
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Yeah some of us are still early enough in the game where a 50-ton mech is the biggest thing we can field. =P
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
I mean, back in the day you would end up with a full suite of heavies before you even considered going after your first assault so...progress?
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NipsHe/HimLuxuriating in existential crisis.Registered Userregular
Do any of you know if there's a mod that gives the Dragon and Cicada an initiative bump to the next lighter category?
I've always felt those two 'mechs were built to be oversized light/medium chassis, and I've wondered if giving them the initiative bonus would move them from Bleh to Acceptable.
Do any of you know if there's a mod that gives the Dragon and Cicada an initiative bump to the next lighter category?
I've always felt those two 'mechs were built to be oversized light/medium chassis, and I've wondered if giving them the initiative bonus would move them from Bleh to Acceptable.
Simplest is to edit the chassisdef files yourself (or more properly, create yourself a mod to do it so you aren't actually messing with the base files). Change
"weightClass": "MEDIUM",
to
"weightClass": "LIGHT",
for example. That will put the Cicada into movement phase 4. Only bit of UI weirdness it causes would be the mechbay would list it under the Light mech filter instead.
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
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SaldonasSee you space cowboy...Registered Userregular
Battletech Extended adds mech quirks exactly like that, where oversized engine mechs get an initiative bump, some get bonuses to not being hit as well, on top of other fun quirks that help make non-meta mechs more appealing. Though you can't just drop that mod in during the middle of a career, since the save file isn't compatible.
Also, Firestarter is absolutely one of the best mechs in the game. So long as you can keep your evasion high, a fully armored one will actually have a much higher effective hitpoints pool over just about anything else. Then you just run/jump behind mechs and blow them up from the back.
NipsHe/HimLuxuriating in existential crisis.Registered Userregular
So I'm well between campaigns/careers, and I can't decide which way to go for my next eventual playthrough:
1) Modding the game to play more like the depths of the 3rd Succession War: No advanced tech, no fancy +/++/+++ gear, nothing that wouldn't exist in a very basic tabletop setup. LosTech would be rare to a fault and impossible to replace.
OR
2) Modding the game to play like a post Jihad/Wars of Reaving tech base, with fucking every wacky thing on the table: Blazers, Silver Bullet Gauss, anything and everything. Go ham.
So I'm well between campaigns/careers, and I can't decide which way to go for my next eventual playthrough:
1) Modding the game to play more like the depths of the 3rd Succession War: No advanced tech, no fancy +/++/+++ gear, nothing that wouldn't exist in a very basic tabletop setup. LosTech would be rare to a fault and impossible to replace.
OR
2) Modding the game to play like a post Jihad/Wars of Reaving tech base, with fucking every wacky thing on the table: Blazers, Silver Bullet Gauss, anything and everything. Go ham.
I'm not sure which I'll enjoy more.
A mod that makes all the mechs Locusts. Locust plague everywhere.
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited September 2020
I was forced to use a dragon for a while due to not being spoilt for choice. I gave it an AC20 and a plus to damage (+++) melee punchy mod.
It would shoot the ac20, and if it couldn't shoot the AC20 (heat or ammo), it became the AC20. Wham!
It worked. I replaced it when I got better heavies. But it really worked. It had quite the kill count and could take the pounding necessary to deliver one.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I'd be worried that giving Dragons an initiative bump would change the problem from "Dragons are worse than every other heavy" to "Dragons are better than every other medium".
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
Man I don't even understand this line of discussion.
I mean speaking as a completely and totally impartial observer, the Dragon is the most perfect Mech to have ever been built.
A Capellan's favorite sheath for any blade is your back.
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
Man I don't even understand this line of discussion.
I mean speaking as a completely and totally impartial observer, the Dragon is the most perfect Mech to have ever been built.
I had three min max builds on my other mechs, and this one laughable pooped on dragon half assed build cos I needed another heavy at that point in the campaign. Shoot, punch, and have lots of armor. It didn't even have jump jets.
The dragon walked away with all the kills. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
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AxenMy avatar is Excalibur.Yes, the sword.Registered Userregular
I'd be worried that giving Dragons an initiative bump would change the problem from "Dragons are worse than every other heavy" to "Dragons are better than every other medium".
Not really. Primarily because engine weight scales up quickly with chassis tonnage. The 60 ton Dragon has 29 free tons, can carry 1040 points of armor (13 tons), and can move 140m. All the 55 ton mediums have 28 free tons, can carry 960 points of armor (12 tons), and can move 140m. The 5 extra tons on the Dragon only actually buys you 1 extra ton for equipment or armor (and some extra melee damage). Which is why it gets badly outclassed by having to go in phase 2 instead of phase 3. Changing the initiative turns it from "never use" to "slight upgrade", which is what it should be.
The 50 ton Centurion, Enforcer, and Hunchback actually have 2.5 more tons of free space than the Dragon, but they also only move 120m and carry 2 tons less armor.
SiliconStew on
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I'd be worried that giving Dragons an initiative bump would change the problem from "Dragons are worse than every other heavy" to "Dragons are better than every other medium".
Not really. Primarily because engine weight scales up quickly with chassis tonnage. The 60 ton Dragon has 29 free tons, can carry 1040 points of armor (13 tons), and can move 140m. All the 55 ton mediums have 28 free tons, can carry 960 points of armor (12 tons), and can move 140m. The 5 extra tons on the Dragon only actually buys you 1 extra ton for equipment or armor (and some extra melee damage). Which is why it gets badly outclassed by having to go in phase 2 instead of phase 3. Changing the initiative turns it from "never use" to "slight upgrade", which is what it should be.
The 50 ton Centurion, Enforcer, and Hunchback actually have 2.5 more tons of free space than the Dragon, but they also only move 120m and carry 2 tons less armor.
This is one thing I figured out early on - there are tons of mechs at lower weight classes that have significantly more free tonnage than mechs at higher weight classes. It's actually kind of frustrating and makes me wish that there was some kind of in-game "Mech Maker" that would let me see and experiment with all the mechs beforehand.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Idea : Give it a melee punching specialisation so its extra armor and speed mean something?
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
I'd be worried that giving Dragons an initiative bump would change the problem from "Dragons are worse than every other heavy" to "Dragons are better than every other medium".
Not really. Primarily because engine weight scales up quickly with chassis tonnage. The 60 ton Dragon has 29 free tons, can carry 1040 points of armor (13 tons), and can move 140m. All the 55 ton mediums have 28 free tons, can carry 960 points of armor (12 tons), and can move 140m. The 5 extra tons on the Dragon only actually buys you 1 extra ton for equipment or armor (and some extra melee damage). Which is why it gets badly outclassed by having to go in phase 2 instead of phase 3. Changing the initiative turns it from "never use" to "slight upgrade", which is what it should be.
The 50 ton Centurion, Enforcer, and Hunchback actually have 2.5 more tons of free space than the Dragon, but they also only move 120m and carry 2 tons less armor.
This is one thing I figured out early on - there are tons of mechs at lower weight classes that have significantly more free tonnage than mechs at higher weight classes. It's actually kind of frustrating and makes me wish that there was some kind of in-game "Mech Maker" that would let me see and experiment with all the mechs beforehand.
Go to the Mech Bay under Skirmish on the main menu screen.
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MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
I'd be worried that giving Dragons an initiative bump would change the problem from "Dragons are worse than every other heavy" to "Dragons are better than every other medium".
Not really. Primarily because engine weight scales up quickly with chassis tonnage. The 60 ton Dragon has 29 free tons, can carry 1040 points of armor (13 tons), and can move 140m. All the 55 ton mediums have 28 free tons, can carry 960 points of armor (12 tons), and can move 140m. The 5 extra tons on the Dragon only actually buys you 1 extra ton for equipment or armor (and some extra melee damage). Which is why it gets badly outclassed by having to go in phase 2 instead of phase 3. Changing the initiative turns it from "never use" to "slight upgrade", which is what it should be.
The 50 ton Centurion, Enforcer, and Hunchback actually have 2.5 more tons of free space than the Dragon, but they also only move 120m and carry 2 tons less armor.
This is one thing I figured out early on - there are tons of mechs at lower weight classes that have significantly more free tonnage than mechs at higher weight classes. It's actually kind of frustrating and makes me wish that there was some kind of in-game "Mech Maker" that would let me see and experiment with all the mechs beforehand.
The thing that bothered me the most about this wasn't just that your shiny new toy isn't all that great.
It's that when I'd lookup my new toy to figure out how to use it all I saw was "It sucks use [mech I don't have] instead"
Which would be useful if I had those mechs! Game doesn't work like that tho!
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
The 5 extra tons on the Dragon only actually buys you 1 extra ton for equipment or armor (and some extra melee damage).
Also more internal structure (which allows you to allocate more armor). All else being equal, all that would make it the "best medium" in its speed band, just not by a huge margin.
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Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
I'd be worried that giving Dragons an initiative bump would change the problem from "Dragons are worse than every other heavy" to "Dragons are better than every other medium".
Not really. Primarily because engine weight scales up quickly with chassis tonnage. The 60 ton Dragon has 29 free tons, can carry 1040 points of armor (13 tons), and can move 140m. All the 55 ton mediums have 28 free tons, can carry 960 points of armor (12 tons), and can move 140m. The 5 extra tons on the Dragon only actually buys you 1 extra ton for equipment or armor (and some extra melee damage). Which is why it gets badly outclassed by having to go in phase 2 instead of phase 3. Changing the initiative turns it from "never use" to "slight upgrade", which is what it should be.
The 50 ton Centurion, Enforcer, and Hunchback actually have 2.5 more tons of free space than the Dragon, but they also only move 120m and carry 2 tons less armor.
This is one thing I figured out early on - there are tons of mechs at lower weight classes that have significantly more free tonnage than mechs at higher weight classes. It's actually kind of frustrating and makes me wish that there was some kind of in-game "Mech Maker" that would let me see and experiment with all the mechs beforehand.
Go to the Mech Bay under Skirmish on the main menu screen.
The 5 extra tons on the Dragon only actually buys you 1 extra ton for equipment or armor (and some extra melee damage).
Also more internal structure (which allows you to allocate more armor). All else being equal, all that would make it the "best medium" in its speed band, just not by a huge margin.
As a heavy it is easier to hit and uses heavier jump jets though. I'd rather use a Shadowhawk.
So I rekitted my Awesome with 4 LL+ instead of 3 PPC and got an archer which I tossed 2 LRM 20s on.
Next mission destroy enemy base while defending ours.
And waves of enemies will keep coming.
The enemy base is literally as far away as is possible on the map and my poor awesome is slow.
And the enemy base is defended and there's only one exit from my base area and no cover the whole way.
Yeah change of plans folks, I think you guys can feed light and medium mechs into my lance all day.
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NipsHe/HimLuxuriating in existential crisis.Registered Userregular
A half-step fix for the Dragon/Cicada problem that popped into my head this morning:
A mod that gives those two 'Mechs (and maybe 80 tonners like this?) a quirk that guarantees they go first in their initiative step. That way they still stay in their typical respective steps, but get some advantage for the big engine that isn't just "move more".
Since I know fuckall about modding, I'm sure this is a simple couple lines of code, right? 🙃
A half-step fix for the Dragon/Cicada problem that popped into my head this morning:
It's not really a problem IMO. There's bad mechs and then there's good mechs. Dragons aren't nearly as bad as Cicadas, too - CDA-2A is the only mech in the base game you can't fully armor since it has too little free tonnage. That pretty much tells everything you need to know about Cicadas.
As for the Dragon, the biggest flaw it has is that it's close enough to being a decent mech that people think it is good and "upgrade" from their medium mechs to it and then (if they are smart) wonder why it's not performing that well or go 100% sunk cost fallacy and turn into Dragon fans that claim it's the best mech ever. Once somebody gets emotional about their Dragons and PPCs and other junk it's a lost cause trying to tell them anything.
A half-step fix for the Dragon/Cicada problem that popped into my head this morning:
It's not really a problem IMO. There's bad mechs and then there's good mechs. Dragons aren't nearly as bad as Cicadas, too - CDA-2A is the only mech in the base game you can't fully armor since it has too little free tonnage. That pretty much tells everything you need to know about Cicadas.
As for the Dragon, the biggest flaw it has is that it's close enough to being a decent mech that people think it is good and "upgrade" from their medium mechs to it and then (if they are smart) wonder why it's not performing that well or go 100% sunk cost fallacy and turn into Dragon fans that claim it's the best mech ever. Once somebody gets emotional about their Dragons and PPCs and other junk it's a lost cause trying to tell them anything.
Agreed. Not all mechs can be good. Mechs like the Dragon in BT serve as what Magic calls skill testers - cards that a player learning the game might think are good. But using them helps them see that they aren't and understand the underlying mechanics of the game better.
The Dragon is just a particularly common trap as it looks heavier than your starting lance in the campaign, and you encounter several of them in the story and have a good chance of picking one up.
A Dragon in your lance isn't bad per se. It's just not optimal.
The dragon gets kind of screwed by the initiative system. But so do all non max tonnage mechs.
The main value of the dragon otherwise is that it performs like a medium when it is a heavy. And so when you’re not tonnage restricted it provides some value in “just being heavier”.
The Banshee has the same purpose as a 95 tonne assault mech
If you get either early then they’re great as there are no tonnage based drop costs and so you just get “free” armor and melee dmg.
They make far more sense as mechs you would see as garrison on base assault missions or maybe as a convoy escort. And should probably exist in those missions earlier than you would normally see them. (Not sure how the game does BV calcs). If you picked them up earlier than you might other assaults/heavies their use case would be a lot more obvious.
That being said the dragons speed and armament lets it stay at the edge of engagement/vision when fighting other heavies. Alternately it has higher mass in close than lights/mediums and can maybe leverage that better melee. (Though melee is... kinda bad in this game for the player).
Treat it like a vindicator for desert/Martian/lunar* engagements and armor it appropriately and you should do better.
Edit: also kind of like the Cicada the dragon starts to do a lot better once you get heavy metal weapons. A UAC5 is like two AC5 and so the weight disadvantage of the dragon starts to matter less. You can now still hit hard and move fast and use up all your heat allocation. (It’s the coil-m that makes the cicada good as an example, since it’s so fast without jumps)
*I espouse the value of jump jets here all the time but Martian and Lunar biomes they’re super not as valuable and base mech speed matters more. The extra heat cost is high and half the cover positions are going to generate extra heat. Being able to run super cool like a dragon can, while still having good speed, you can skimp on armor in order to load up on low heat dmg.
A half-step fix for the Dragon/Cicada problem that popped into my head this morning:
It's not really a problem IMO. There's bad mechs and then there's good mechs. Dragons aren't nearly as bad as Cicadas, too - CDA-2A is the only mech in the base game you can't fully armor since it has too little free tonnage. That pretty much tells everything you need to know about Cicadas.
As for the Dragon, the biggest flaw it has is that it's close enough to being a decent mech that people think it is good and "upgrade" from their medium mechs to it and then (if they are smart) wonder why it's not performing that well or go 100% sunk cost fallacy and turn into Dragon fans that claim it's the best mech ever. Once somebody gets emotional about their Dragons and PPCs and other junk it's a lost cause trying to tell them anything.
Agreed. Not all mechs can be good. Mechs like the Dragon in BT serve as what Magic calls skill testers - cards that a player learning the game might think are good. But using them helps them see that they aren't and understand the underlying mechanics of the game better.
The Dragon is just a particularly common trap as it looks heavier than your starting lance in the campaign, and you encounter several of them in the story and have a good chance of picking one up.
A Dragon in your lance isn't bad per se. It's just not optimal.
A trap further deepened by the campaign's Smithton store having an unlimited supply of Dragon parts right at a point you'd be in need of heavier than medium mechs.
Just remember that half the people you meet are below average intelligence.
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
Yeah, that part was a dick move. They couldn't have been at least Thunderbolts or Catapults or something? Come on!
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OrcaAlso known as EspressosaurusWrexRegistered Userregular
Battletech: One Man's Trash flashpoint spoilers
Our bird with sunglasses has high falutin' expensive types that work in communications and are after LosTech staplers...waitasec...did I just pull off a job for ComStar?!
The Dragon would be a lot better if there was any value in not going with max tonnage available. Late game where you want more slow assaults, having a Dragon that sports a Jenner's weapon compliment isn't strictly bad, there's just no valuable use case for it. If it was useful to have that heavy fast scout, it'd see use in late game. That still makes it a sub-optimal get, though, because when you first get it it's basically not really worth using.
Well, no because you would probably want a lighter, higher initiative scout. You're still going to have 75 tonners in the late game (and Cyclops assisted assaults) so a 60 tonner that acts on init 4 as a scout at 4 evasion pips is difficult to support. You'd much rather go down to 55 tonnes and save half the weight on jump jets.
If you started out with a dragon it would be a really good mech. The problem isn't that weight is unbounded so you have no reason to use it. Its that you never get it at a point where your unbounded weight allows you to do so.
Edit:
As an example. I routinely use a firestarter as a lategame scout/killer. A "lower weight limit" isn't going to convince me to use a dragon over the firestarter. Acting on init 3 with doubles might. But the firestarter is already competing for the same space that Royal Griffin and Phoenix Hawk take. And a 1 tonne jump jet weight dragon isn't going to compete with those unless its got something amazing under the hood
First mission of career, get a random headshot kill on a medium mech with all its parts intact.
But due to how in campaign the first bunch of missions are mostly tanks and APCs that give poor salvage, I had set my salvage shares low, and only got a single part of it.
I'm literally describing a hypothetical that doesn't actually exist, so
I'm not really sure how you're refuting that?
You're describing a hypothetical that is non binding on the decision. A weight limit would not make me want to take a dragon latagame as a scout since there are lighter mechs that are better scouts for assaults. And since lighter mechs are by definition lighter a weight limit would not make me more likely to take a dragon.
Its like saying that a hypothetical 10 ft deep pool would make standing up in it easier compared to a 15 ft deep pool... You cannot stand up in either. The limit had no effect.
So I've been busy grinding up XP and cash to finish kitting out my pilots and my Argo. My Argo's got most of the big things already built- I just need to finish up the habitation pods to open up everything behind them. Full load of mech bays, wiring, structure, drive core, and everything I can reach of the tech stuff. I figure I got the important stuff all built up, so now we get to buy the fun stuff for morale- after we kit out the medbay.
After that, we start stashing for heavy and assault salvage and piece together some nice big stompy mechs and proceed to make enough in early to mid-game cash to get things started. Plus my crew will have enough in the way of stats to take advantage of the big mechs. I mean, I think of it this way- low-difficulty missions are there for you to grind cash off of because they don’t offer great salvage, so let’s take advantage of that and grind all the cash.
Granted, though, it’s expensive as all hell- I’m doing everything 1.5 skulls and under except escort and base defense missions (fuck them both but good, I’ll likely keep this policy for the rest of the game), and I’m still running decently cash positive- getting lots of money and chunking together occasional scrap mechs for extra cash. It’s like... I could move forward with the game- three Shadow Hawks and an LRM boat Centurion could maybe take the next mission- but so could a lance of heavier mechs.
First mission of career, get a random headshot kill on a medium mech with all its parts intact.
But due to how in campaign the first bunch of missions are mostly tanks and APCs that give poor salvage, I had set my salvage shares low, and only got a single part of it.
First mission of career, get a random headshot kill on a medium mech with all its parts intact.
But due to how in campaign the first bunch of missions are mostly tanks and APCs that give poor salvage, I had set my salvage shares low, and only got a single part of it.
I have done this. Twice. I wanted a catapult so bad for the entire campaign. I love catapults. I just love their whole design. I wanted dekker in his catapult. It would probably be worse than the archer, I didn't care.
I never actually got one, because both times there was one in a mission I had set salvage low.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Playing an ironman career, and the realization that I can't put my mf'ing Commando back into the field because even though I replaced that arm I still don't have a spare ML to mount on it, is a real kick in the balls.
Posts
Next up on my list to obtain are an Archer and a Firestarter, because they sound fun.
I've always felt those two 'mechs were built to be oversized light/medium chassis, and I've wondered if giving them the initiative bonus would move them from Bleh to Acceptable.
Simplest is to edit the chassisdef files yourself (or more properly, create yourself a mod to do it so you aren't actually messing with the base files). Change
"weightClass": "MEDIUM",
to
"weightClass": "LIGHT",
for example. That will put the Cicada into movement phase 4. Only bit of UI weirdness it causes would be the mechbay would list it under the Light mech filter instead.
Otherwise you could try a mod for speed-based initiative for all mechs: https://www.nexusmods.com/battletech/mods/526
Also, Firestarter is absolutely one of the best mechs in the game. So long as you can keep your evasion high, a fully armored one will actually have a much higher effective hitpoints pool over just about anything else. Then you just run/jump behind mechs and blow them up from the back.
Switch: SW-1493-0062-4053
1) Modding the game to play more like the depths of the 3rd Succession War: No advanced tech, no fancy +/++/+++ gear, nothing that wouldn't exist in a very basic tabletop setup. LosTech would be rare to a fault and impossible to replace.
OR
2) Modding the game to play like a post Jihad/Wars of Reaving tech base, with fucking every wacky thing on the table: Blazers, Silver Bullet Gauss, anything and everything. Go ham.
I'm not sure which I'll enjoy more.
A mod that makes all the mechs Locusts. Locust plague everywhere.
Steam: betsuni7
It would shoot the ac20, and if it couldn't shoot the AC20 (heat or ammo), it became the AC20. Wham!
It worked. I replaced it when I got better heavies. But it really worked. It had quite the kill count and could take the pounding necessary to deliver one.
I mean speaking as a completely and totally impartial observer, the Dragon is the most perfect Mech to have ever been built.
for me to POOP ON
I had three min max builds on my other mechs, and this one laughable pooped on dragon half assed build cos I needed another heavy at that point in the campaign. Shoot, punch, and have lots of armor. It didn't even have jump jets.
The dragon walked away with all the kills. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Clearly the words of a Davion lapdog.
Not really. Primarily because engine weight scales up quickly with chassis tonnage. The 60 ton Dragon has 29 free tons, can carry 1040 points of armor (13 tons), and can move 140m. All the 55 ton mediums have 28 free tons, can carry 960 points of armor (12 tons), and can move 140m. The 5 extra tons on the Dragon only actually buys you 1 extra ton for equipment or armor (and some extra melee damage). Which is why it gets badly outclassed by having to go in phase 2 instead of phase 3. Changing the initiative turns it from "never use" to "slight upgrade", which is what it should be.
The 50 ton Centurion, Enforcer, and Hunchback actually have 2.5 more tons of free space than the Dragon, but they also only move 120m and carry 2 tons less armor.
This is one thing I figured out early on - there are tons of mechs at lower weight classes that have significantly more free tonnage than mechs at higher weight classes. It's actually kind of frustrating and makes me wish that there was some kind of in-game "Mech Maker" that would let me see and experiment with all the mechs beforehand.
Go to the Mech Bay under Skirmish on the main menu screen.
The thing that bothered me the most about this wasn't just that your shiny new toy isn't all that great.
It's that when I'd lookup my new toy to figure out how to use it all I saw was "It sucks use [mech I don't have] instead"
Which would be useful if I had those mechs! Game doesn't work like that tho!
Also more internal structure (which allows you to allocate more armor). All else being equal, all that would make it the "best medium" in its speed band, just not by a huge margin.
Thank you!
As a heavy it is easier to hit and uses heavier jump jets though. I'd rather use a Shadowhawk.
Next mission destroy enemy base while defending ours.
And waves of enemies will keep coming.
The enemy base is literally as far away as is possible on the map and my poor awesome is slow.
And the enemy base is defended and there's only one exit from my base area and no cover the whole way.
Yeah change of plans folks, I think you guys can feed light and medium mechs into my lance all day.
A mod that gives those two 'Mechs (and maybe 80 tonners like this?) a quirk that guarantees they go first in their initiative step. That way they still stay in their typical respective steps, but get some advantage for the big engine that isn't just "move more".
Since I know fuckall about modding, I'm sure this is a simple couple lines of code, right? 🙃
And it still probably wouldn't make them good.
It's not really a problem IMO. There's bad mechs and then there's good mechs. Dragons aren't nearly as bad as Cicadas, too - CDA-2A is the only mech in the base game you can't fully armor since it has too little free tonnage. That pretty much tells everything you need to know about Cicadas.
As for the Dragon, the biggest flaw it has is that it's close enough to being a decent mech that people think it is good and "upgrade" from their medium mechs to it and then (if they are smart) wonder why it's not performing that well or go 100% sunk cost fallacy and turn into Dragon fans that claim it's the best mech ever. Once somebody gets emotional about their Dragons and PPCs and other junk it's a lost cause trying to tell them anything.
Agreed. Not all mechs can be good. Mechs like the Dragon in BT serve as what Magic calls skill testers - cards that a player learning the game might think are good. But using them helps them see that they aren't and understand the underlying mechanics of the game better.
The Dragon is just a particularly common trap as it looks heavier than your starting lance in the campaign, and you encounter several of them in the story and have a good chance of picking one up.
A Dragon in your lance isn't bad per se. It's just not optimal.
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The main value of the dragon otherwise is that it performs like a medium when it is a heavy. And so when you’re not tonnage restricted it provides some value in “just being heavier”.
The Banshee has the same purpose as a 95 tonne assault mech
If you get either early then they’re great as there are no tonnage based drop costs and so you just get “free” armor and melee dmg.
They make far more sense as mechs you would see as garrison on base assault missions or maybe as a convoy escort. And should probably exist in those missions earlier than you would normally see them. (Not sure how the game does BV calcs). If you picked them up earlier than you might other assaults/heavies their use case would be a lot more obvious.
That being said the dragons speed and armament lets it stay at the edge of engagement/vision when fighting other heavies. Alternately it has higher mass in close than lights/mediums and can maybe leverage that better melee. (Though melee is... kinda bad in this game for the player).
Treat it like a vindicator for desert/Martian/lunar* engagements and armor it appropriately and you should do better.
Edit: also kind of like the Cicada the dragon starts to do a lot better once you get heavy metal weapons. A UAC5 is like two AC5 and so the weight disadvantage of the dragon starts to matter less. You can now still hit hard and move fast and use up all your heat allocation. (It’s the coil-m that makes the cicada good as an example, since it’s so fast without jumps)
*I espouse the value of jump jets here all the time but Martian and Lunar biomes they’re super not as valuable and base mech speed matters more. The extra heat cost is high and half the cover positions are going to generate extra heat. Being able to run super cool like a dragon can, while still having good speed, you can skimp on armor in order to load up on low heat dmg.
A trap further deepened by the campaign's Smithton store having an unlimited supply of Dragon parts right at a point you'd be in need of heavier than medium mechs.
If you started out with a dragon it would be a really good mech. The problem isn't that weight is unbounded so you have no reason to use it. Its that you never get it at a point where your unbounded weight allows you to do so.
Edit:
As an example. I routinely use a firestarter as a lategame scout/killer. A "lower weight limit" isn't going to convince me to use a dragon over the firestarter. Acting on init 3 with doubles might. But the firestarter is already competing for the same space that Royal Griffin and Phoenix Hawk take. And a 1 tonne jump jet weight dragon isn't going to compete with those unless its got something amazing under the hood
I'm not really sure how you're refuting that?
But due to how in campaign the first bunch of missions are mostly tanks and APCs that give poor salvage, I had set my salvage shares low, and only got a single part of it.
You're describing a hypothetical that is non binding on the decision. A weight limit would not make me want to take a dragon latagame as a scout since there are lighter mechs that are better scouts for assaults. And since lighter mechs are by definition lighter a weight limit would not make me more likely to take a dragon.
Its like saying that a hypothetical 10 ft deep pool would make standing up in it easier compared to a 15 ft deep pool... You cannot stand up in either. The limit had no effect.
After that, we start stashing for heavy and assault salvage and piece together some nice big stompy mechs and proceed to make enough in early to mid-game cash to get things started. Plus my crew will have enough in the way of stats to take advantage of the big mechs. I mean, I think of it this way- low-difficulty missions are there for you to grind cash off of because they don’t offer great salvage, so let’s take advantage of that and grind all the cash.
Granted, though, it’s expensive as all hell- I’m doing everything 1.5 skulls and under except escort and base defense missions (fuck them both but good, I’ll likely keep this policy for the rest of the game), and I’m still running decently cash positive- getting lots of money and chunking together occasional scrap mechs for extra cash. It’s like... I could move forward with the game- three Shadow Hawks and an LRM boat Centurion could maybe take the next mission- but so could a lance of heavier mechs.
I can has cheezburger, yes?
Ugh, that is a terrible feeling. :bigfrown:
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I have done this. Twice. I wanted a catapult so bad for the entire campaign. I love catapults. I just love their whole design. I wanted dekker in his catapult. It would probably be worse than the archer, I didn't care.
I never actually got one, because both times there was one in a mission I had set salvage low.