As was foretold, we've added advertisements to the forums! If you have questions, or if you encounter any bugs, please visit this thread: https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240191/forum-advertisement-faq-and-reports-thread/

The General [Coronavirus] Discussion Thread is WAY worse than the flu

14546485051101

Posts

  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Showering and clothes sanitizing is fine, but not really important. Your Dad is the potential vector, not his pants.

    "Well then, you clearly don't know my dad."

    :biggrin:

  • Phoenix-DPhoenix-D Registered User regular
    A single wedding in Maine has now been traced to a minimum of 175 cases and 7 deaths. None of the deaths were people who were there, so the attendees are probably still all "this is fine"

    https://apnews.com/263d072466b2152f175c24f7775b00df

  • BlindPsychicBlindPsychic Registered User regular
    I'm actually going to lose my mind if I started seeing more pieces like this one that keep saying 'We' failed on this pandemic, and that 'we' are being too optimistic. Apparently the media agrees with the President's official position that there's no one in charge and the death of the American public is some kind of moral failing that we brought on ourselves.

    TRUMPS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN THE ARTICLE. AHGGHGHGHG

  • SlortexSlortex In my chairRegistered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    Showering and clothes sanitizing is fine, but not really important. Your Dad is the potential vector, not his pants.

    "Well then, you clearly don't know my dad."

    :biggrin:

    "Is that a potential disease vector in your pants, or are you just happy to see me?"

  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    I'm actually going to lose my mind if I started seeing more pieces like this one that keep saying 'We' failed on this pandemic, and that 'we' are being too optimistic. Apparently the media agrees with the President's official position that there's no one in charge and the death of the American public is some kind of moral failing that we brought on ourselves.

    TRUMPS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN THE ARTICLE. AHGGHGHGHG

    I think you hit the point though.

    The election of Trump was a moral failing of the American public. Or at least enough Electoral College votes were.

    This is a most predictable outcome given who is in charge. Even at his best, given who he is, it was going to be bad.

  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    I'm actually going to lose my mind if I started seeing more pieces like this one that keep saying 'We' failed on this pandemic, and that 'we' are being too optimistic. Apparently the media agrees with the President's official position that there's no one in charge and the death of the American public is some kind of moral failing that we brought on ourselves.

    TRUMPS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN THE ARTICLE. AHGGHGHGHG

    That is a genuinely stupid article on all levels. There is literally no population in the world who has held this virus in check without centralized control (even Sweden and their version of in check) its pretty blooming miraculous that the US isn't 10x as bad as it is considering the utter abdication of our federal government.

    People will take vacations until you ban them from doing so. People will want their kids back in school.

    Hell, the idea that a vaccine wouldn't be a 'swift' game changer is ridiculous too. Yes, people need to getthe vaccine, that's a fundamental need. But if the vaccine slows the inherent spread and cases by say 35% once everyone in the US who will take it has taken it (ie the vaccine is pretty poor) then that would be a MASSIVE hammer in controlling the virus.

    I don't understand the point of articles like this. Individuals in the US are doing their best, and some of them are doing a shitty job, and some of them have decided they are all out of hope and are just going to roll the dice. That's why we need government to act. People being people isn't peoples fault! Its the reason we decided we needed a concept of government in the first place.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    tbloxham wrote: »
    I'm actually going to lose my mind if I started seeing more pieces like this one that keep saying 'We' failed on this pandemic, and that 'we' are being too optimistic. Apparently the media agrees with the President's official position that there's no one in charge and the death of the American public is some kind of moral failing that we brought on ourselves.

    TRUMPS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN THE ARTICLE. AHGGHGHGHG

    That is a genuinely stupid article on all levels. There is literally no population in the world who has held this virus in check without centralized control (even Sweden and their version of in check) its pretty blooming miraculous that the US isn't 10x as bad as it is considering the utter abdication of our federal government.

    People will take vacations until you ban them from doing so. People will want their kids back in school.

    Hell, the idea that a vaccine wouldn't be a 'swift' game changer is ridiculous too. Yes, people need to getthe vaccine, that's a fundamental need. But if the vaccine slows the inherent spread and cases by say 35% once everyone in the US who will take it has taken it (ie the vaccine is pretty poor) then that would be a MASSIVE hammer in controlling the virus.

    I don't understand the point of articles like this. Individuals in the US are doing their best, and some of them are doing a shitty job, and some of them have decided they are all out of hope and are just going to roll the dice. That's why we need government to act. People being people isn't peoples fault! Its the reason we decided we needed a concept of government in the first place.

    I dunno. If the gross result of the vaccine has a 35% prevention rate (ie, also factoring in the significant percentage of people who won't take it), I'm not sure how much that'll actually change things.

    If behaviors didn't change at all, masks/handwashing/social-distancing, then sure, it'd be a big factor in curbing infection rates.

    But I have zero confidence people will do that. If a vaccine is released and it's not HEAVILY effective (in the 90+% range), then I can see demand for massive behavioral shifts back to "life as normal". Opening of bars and restaurants, sporting events and concerts, political rallies*, international vacations and domestic flights, cruises etc.
    * Win or lose, assuming he's not jailed, Trump will continue to do these. He clearly gets off on them, and it's clear Melania doesn't want to have anything to do with him in that regard.

    Any shift towards lowering infection rates by the implementation of a vaccine, I fear will be more than counteracted by people being dickheads. I didn't have much faith in humanity before the pandemic. That optimistic outlook has been shattered by the behavior of people since.

  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Individuals in the US are not doing their best, no. That's just.... no.

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Individuals in the US are not doing their best, no. That's just.... no.

    There's a lot of individuals everywhere doing stupid stupid shit.

    The US, anecdotally, does seem worse though.

  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    Individuals in the US are not doing their best, no. That's just.... no.

    For their own value of 'best' they are. A population is composed of many people with many differing tolerances for risk and understanding what is going on. The US outbreak is NOT the fault of the US population somehow being uniquely incompetent and non compliant with regulation. It is the result of poor, unfocused and unstructured regulations with no common central mandate and no message of compliance, care and discipline from the federal government.

    Italians are not somehow noble saints, and Americans despicable sinners desperate to kill each other. Spaniards do not rise from their beds each morning desperate to do their part and share the sacrifices of society. True, there are societies which are primed to deal well with systems like this with a high trust in government and strong central healthcare system, but the absence of these things is not the fault of the population of the US other than in a very diffuse way through the leaders which are forced upon us by the governmental strategy that again we as individuals have no way of changing.

    Individuals are to blame for spreading the disease because noone is helping them STOP spreading the disease. And that means poor people are forced to work, idiots go to motorcycle rallies, and the confused go on vacations because "We are taking precautions!"

    Writing an article blaming American individuals is stupid. Because this isn't an individual problem. It's a social problem, which can only be fought be centralized government action. Its like blaming someone who uses a plastic water bottle for climate change, or a single obese person for the challenges facing American healthcare. Sure, they played their part, but in reality what is needed is to stop them being able to buy that damn bottle in the first place or making that person pay an appropriate price for a bucket of corn syrup vs a zucchini. I can assure you without contradiction that Coronavirus in America under President Clinton looks a LOT more like Coronavirus in Europe and Asia. Probably better because we would still have vastly more tests per capita.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    It sounds like your argument is "people are not to blame because they are dumb and don't care." I can't really agree with that, nor do I know really how to continue a discussion along these lines.

    Like, I'm not arguing against the value of centralized action. But like... people are not slaves. They make choices, and those choices have consequences.

    Battle.net ID: kime#1822
    3DS Friend Code: 3110-5393-4113
    Steam profile
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    MorganV wrote: »
    tbloxham wrote: »
    I'm actually going to lose my mind if I started seeing more pieces like this one that keep saying 'We' failed on this pandemic, and that 'we' are being too optimistic. Apparently the media agrees with the President's official position that there's no one in charge and the death of the American public is some kind of moral failing that we brought on ourselves.

    TRUMPS NOT EVEN MENTIONED IN THE ARTICLE. AHGGHGHGHG

    That is a genuinely stupid article on all levels. There is literally no population in the world who has held this virus in check without centralized control (even Sweden and their version of in check) its pretty blooming miraculous that the US isn't 10x as bad as it is considering the utter abdication of our federal government.

    People will take vacations until you ban them from doing so. People will want their kids back in school.

    Hell, the idea that a vaccine wouldn't be a 'swift' game changer is ridiculous too. Yes, people need to getthe vaccine, that's a fundamental need. But if the vaccine slows the inherent spread and cases by say 35% once everyone in the US who will take it has taken it (ie the vaccine is pretty poor) then that would be a MASSIVE hammer in controlling the virus.

    I don't understand the point of articles like this. Individuals in the US are doing their best, and some of them are doing a shitty job, and some of them have decided they are all out of hope and are just going to roll the dice. That's why we need government to act. People being people isn't peoples fault! Its the reason we decided we needed a concept of government in the first place.

    I dunno. If the gross result of the vaccine has a 35% prevention rate (ie, also factoring in the significant percentage of people who won't take it), I'm not sure how much that'll actually change things.

    If behaviors didn't change at all, masks/handwashing/social-distancing, then sure, it'd be a big factor in curbing infection rates.

    But I have zero confidence people will do that. If a vaccine is released and it's not HEAVILY effective (in the 90+% range), then I can see demand for massive behavioral shifts back to "life as normal". Opening of bars and restaurants, sporting events and concerts, political rallies*, international vacations and domestic flights, cruises etc.
    * Win or lose, assuming he's not jailed, Trump will continue to do these. He clearly gets off on them, and it's clear Melania doesn't want to have anything to do with him in that regard.

    Any shift towards lowering infection rates by the implementation of a vaccine, I fear will be more than counteracted by people being dickheads. I didn't have much faith in humanity before the pandemic. That optimistic outlook has been shattered by the behavior of people since.

    35% reduction in the rate of spread (IE, the vaccine is not 35% effective, but, once 70% of the population have taken it an additional 35% of the population is now immune, 50% effective taken by 70% of people) makes every other measure which you keep more effective. Sure, many people will be idiots, but, now all the poor people who are forced to serve those idiots in bars and restaurants get infected less, and bring the virus home with them less. It's a huge knock on effect. Now, in the US it won't be enough all by itself (whereas in other countries I feel they would have a smart phased roll out and then keep all the sentinal testing in place etc and then it would be enough, because it would mean you could probably snuff out any local flare ups easily because they would spread slower) but it would be hugely beneficial.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • StarZapperStarZapper Vermont, Bizzaro world.Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Less spread is less spread, we don't have to get too overanalytical with it. The flu vaccine isn't perfect either, and not nearly enough people get it every year, yet without it flu deaths would be significantly more every year. Any safe vaccine would be a great improvement at this point, even with low effectiveness. Safe being the key word here, and I'll wait on non compromised sources (i.e. European or WHO organizations) to verify that first. Frankly, people are already being massive selfish idiots worldwide, and I don't think any vaccine would change that more than it would help.

    StarZapper on
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    kime wrote: »
    It sounds like your argument is "people are not to blame because they are dumb and don't care." I can't really agree with that, nor do I know really how to continue a discussion along these lines.

    Like, I'm not arguing against the value of centralized action. But like... people are not slaves. They make choices, and those choices have consequences.

    Sufficient people in ALL societies are either uninformed, confused, desperate or dumb that the lack of a central plan means that failure is inevitable because those groups will always make/be forced to make bad decisions and there are sufficient OF them that the actions of the cautious, capable and informed cannot outweigh them.

    I can isolate carefully up to a point, and it helps society. BUT, beyond that point its meaningless. If I'm only going shopping once a month, and other than that just going to my closed back garden then I'm doing all I can and nothing more I can do matters. I'm already a viral dead end. I probably won't get infected with my 1 exposure a month, and even if I do I can't infect anyone else.

    Realization of this fact is a big part of why government exists. If the barbarians are at the gates, it doesn't matter if 85% of the villagers are honest and don't open the gates. Those gates are still opened. People respond to incentives and rules. Understanding, "How can I remain sane while fighting coronavirus" is an immensely complex operation requiring a detailed level of understanding of personal risk, societal risk, virology and epidimeology. People just cant do it.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • CorvusCorvus . VancouverRegistered User regular
    Welp, looks like we're keeping the "don't open dead inside" edict up for the border.



    Source is CBC News foreign correspondent stationed in DC.

    :so_raven:
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Corvus wrote: »
    Welp, looks like we're keeping the "don't open dead inside" edict up for the border.



    Source is CBC News foreign correspondent stationed in DC.

    Every nation should close borders with every other nation for vacation travel and the like. Europe is seeing an international resurgence precisely because of the pretense that travel between zones with different control strategies is ok. If the US had a sensible government, it would close the border anyway even though it is the party with more infections.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • shrykeshryke Member of the Beast Registered User regular
    Corvus wrote: »
    Welp, looks like we're keeping the "don't open dead inside" edict up for the border.



    Source is CBC News foreign correspondent stationed in DC.

    Thank god.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Oh good the Right has found a new doctor to claim COVID was made in a lab and intentionally released on the world I'm sure this will go over well.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Trump: "A lot of people think the masks are not good." Asked who they are, Trump says I'll tell you who they are: "Waiters."
    Can he not be irresponsible for five seconds.

  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular
    Wait why would waiters be against masks? If anything they probably wish more idiots would wear them if they insist they have to eat inside.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • GyralGyral Registered User regular
    At this point, someone needs to make a plug-in for the internet where every time Trump says "A lot of people" or "Someone told me" with "I think," so we can skip past the pretense that he interacts with anyone in a meaningful way.

    25t9pjnmqicf.jpg
  • StarZapperStarZapper Vermont, Bizzaro world.Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Eh, most people who wear them all day for work get to hate them. I should know, I'm one of them! Also, talking through masks makes it difficult to communicate, which is one of the main jobs of waiters. Of course, none of that changes the fact that he's 100% full of shit and made it up on the spot.

    StarZapper on
  • Raiden333Raiden333 Registered User regular
    Preacher wrote: »
    Wait why would waiters be against masks? If anything they probably wish more idiots would wear them if they insist they have to eat inside.

    I'm watching it live. His anecdote continued that he was out eating, and his waiter was "playing with his mask, which I don't blame him for, but he was playing with his mask, and then he was touching the plate with the food, so that can't be good"

    So it's actually not Waiters against masks. It's Trump against waiters wearing masks.

    There was a steam sig here. It's gone now.
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Washington Post reporter:
    Trump says the nation will “develop a herd mentality” even without a vaccines. Assuming he means “herd immunity.” (Without a vaccine would mean a lot more deaths.)
    Even for Trump, that is horrific.

    Edit: Video:


    "It is going to be herd developed."

    Couscous on
  • Commander ZoomCommander Zoom Registered User regular
    no, herd mentality is what his base already has.

    (I had to, it was right there)

  • WiseManTobesWiseManTobes Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Trump: "A lot of people think the masks are not good." Asked who they are, Trump says I'll tell you who they are: "Waiters."
    Can he not be irresponsible for five seconds.

    Like he has ever spoken to a filthy minimum wage peon...

    Steam! Battlenet:Wisemantobes#1508
  • Dark_SideDark_Side Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Doesn't even skip a beat when Stephanopoulos points out herd immunity could only happen on the backs of millions of dead people. (And no one's even sure herd immunity can actually happen with this virus, there's already been legitimate reinfections, though thankfully rare.)

    Dark_Side on
  • CouscousCouscous Registered User regular
    Herd immunity does not happen without vaccines

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    The misuse of that whole concept throughout this thing has been infuriating but it's what I've come to expect of the right-wing in the last few years: find a word which implies an answer, say it repeatedly without understanding it, and refuse to explain.

    It's applied to oh, literally every issue with a partisan divide that I've ever had the misfortune to argue with people about for the past 10 years.

  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Trump: "A lot of people think the masks are not good." Asked who they are, Trump says I'll tell you who they are: "Waiters."
    Can he not be irresponsible for five seconds.

    Trump literally doesn’t know a single correct thing about anything, I swear. I’ve never seen someone so obscenely incorrect about such an obscene number of things.

    Obscene and wrong are his two defining treats.

    This is the PRESIDENT of our country. What in the F***!

    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
  • MorganVMorganV Registered User regular
    Drez wrote: »
    Couscous wrote: »
    Trump: "A lot of people think the masks are not good." Asked who they are, Trump says I'll tell you who they are: "Waiters."
    Can he not be irresponsible for five seconds.

    Trump literally doesn’t know a single correct thing about anything, I swear. I’ve never seen someone so obscenely incorrect about such an obscene number of things.

    Obscene and wrong are his two defining treats.

    This is the PRESIDENT of our country. What in the F***!

    It's kind of amazing, isn't it? Not just that he's wrong, but consistently wrong.

    He's an idiot savant of idiocy.

  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    Couscous wrote: »
    Herd immunity does not happen without vaccines

    Herd immunity happens routinely all the time without vaccines for all sorts of viruses. It just doesn't mean what people use it to mean, nor does it happen for all viruses, and it doesn't have anything to say about limiting death and destruction from the virus. Nor does it mean the virus goes away always. It just means the virus is endemic rather than pandemic and spread will be slower and more constant rather than explosive.

    Society had herd immunity to polio before the vaccine. We gain herd immunity to the years specific influenza strain every year. Europeans had herd immunity to measles before the vaccine. There are hundreds of viruses in circulation right now to which we have herd immunity with no vaccine.

    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • DrezDrez Registered User regular
    Honestly, I’m back to my Zaphod Beeblebrox theory. Nobody is this distracting and crazy accidentally. This is by design. The government must know that Mayans are coming to destroy us or a giant, sentient spaghetti monster is coming to devour us, or Cthulhu is pissed at us, or we’re stuck in some kind of permanent, hellish time loop, or WASP monsters are trying to keep 99% of humans in relative poverty, or SOMETHING that Trump’s insanity is meant to distract us from. Has to be.

    Switch: SW-7690-2320-9238Steam/PSN/Xbox: Drezdar
  • ToxTox I kill threads he/himRegistered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Just lost a good friend to Covid. Someone I've known for just over 7 years. We were really close.

    But she decided she doesn't believe in science and that the government runs the media. She tried to tell me the Millinocket, ME outbreak was bs and that 6/7 deaths weren't due to Covid, that those people "just had covid in them" but actually they died because they were old and had a bunch of other shit wrong with them anyway.

    So I went ahead and blocked her on all social media because I simply don't have the time or energy in my life for that sort of arrogance.
    Phoenix-D wrote: »
    A single wedding in Maine has now been traced to a minimum of 175 cases and 7 deaths. None of the deaths were people who were there, so the attendees are probably still all "this is fine"

    https://apnews.com/263d072466b2152f175c24f7775b00df

    Yeah, this. This was what happened. I asked her if she'd heard about it and she said it as all bs.

    Also the pastor of the church where the wedding occurred is apparently still holding service so yep, it's all good, nothing to see here.

    Tox on
    Twitter! | Dilige, et quod vis fac
  • PreacherPreacher Registered User regular


    Last night when I was in the ER, I asked the absolutely wonderful doctor taking care of me if, five weeks into #COVID19, I were still contagious. He said he didn't know, adding, "The CDC has guidelines for this, but I don't trust the CDC anymore."

    That's where we are, folks.

    GQ reporter with the sorry state of affairs the politicized CDC finds us in.

    I would like some money because these are artisanal nuggets of wisdom philistine.

    pleasepaypreacher.net
  • DevoutlyApatheticDevoutlyApathetic Registered User regular
    Phew, that's a rough one.

    Uh, does Germany have a CDC analogue?

    Nod. Get treat. PSN: Quippish
  • tbloxhamtbloxham Registered User regular
    edited September 2020
    Edit - No point

    tbloxham on
    "That is cool" - Abraham Lincoln
  • Fuzzy Cumulonimbus CloudFuzzy Cumulonimbus Cloud Registered User regular
    Phew, that's a rough one.

    Uh, does Germany have a CDC analogue?
    Robert Koch Institute

  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    It's funny when we talked about the downfall of a superpower like the US, this is more or less exactly the type of thing which it referred to. No one is saying "what does the CDC say" anymore - everyone is waiting on the EU member states and EU's equivalent organization.

    That trust isn't going to be coming back soon. Possibly ever.

  • ElldrenElldren Is a woman dammit ceterum censeoRegistered User regular
    It's funny when we talked about the downfall of a superpower like the US, this is more or less exactly the type of thing which it referred to. No one is saying "what does the CDC say" anymore - everyone is waiting on the EU member states and EU's equivalent organization.

    That trust isn't going to be coming back soon. Possibly ever.

    The politicization of the MMWR in specific has thrown basically everything the CDC says into suspicion. Like that was the one big thing that everyone relied on for data and expected to be entirely empirical and the admin fucked with it.

    fuck gendered marketing
This discussion has been closed.