They're just bad at writing rules and frequently release new units that are either too strong or to weak, and you just don't remember the ones that are too weak because you never see them on the table, no one ever talks about them, etc.
This also explains the "cycle" of coming out overpowered and then being made useless just in time for the new model to be sold. They're bat at writing rules and so they overcorrect when they address an imbalance. Just as Reivers were a cool new Primaris kit that was released and continues to e useless by accident, Wraithknights are still paying for the sins of 7th edition by accident, not grand design.
Never attribute to malice what can be explained by incompetence, basically.
They are bad at both ends, and that is what is so frustrating. They are bad at balancing units initially, and then they are equally bad at not overreacting to whatever the meta is when they start writing a book. Was the Repulsor Executioner so OP it needs to be nerfed in to uselessness? Of course not...but what was happening around the time they were writing this book? Iron Hands was going crazy, Raven Guard centurions were all the rage and a few top players were abusing Aggressors. So they overreact nerf those, while also overtuning a new unit. I agree with you, it's icompetence more than malice....but that doesn't make it any less infuriating. I, like a lot of others, thought I saw signs of a change in them with 8th, but whatever faction internally was winning the rules battle at the start of 8th has decidedly been crushed and we're back to very classic GW yoyo rule making.
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
edited October 2020
I'll be honest, I spent a good 5+ years playing some other big mainstream games and it wasn't much better there. Infinity quickly lost the 'it's not your list, it's you' moniker the fanbase liked as it got more competitive, and there were clearly units and profiles that were just not worth taking. Malifaux likes to tout its balance being based on picking your crew after knowing your objectives, but the same thing happened there where people figured out the general best units to take in a faction (completely ignoring the theme heavy focus of the game and using the same overly good mercenaries everywhere) and just swapped in the few situationally good units as objectives dictated.
GW is particularly bad at it, but I can't say my forays to other companies games were met with the greener grass I was led to believe was there.
As usual, it came down to playing friendly games with friends having the most fun and variety just like 40k.
legit the only game asymmetric game with as large of design space as 40k I can think of that doesn't suffer from the cycle of overbuffs and nerfs is Brood War
To be fair, Starcraft only has three armies, and Blizzard has only added seven units in the last 20+ years. That's quite a bit easier to balance than a game with dozens of factions and hundreds of units.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
Went heavy on the pre order. Got some lokhust destroyers, the new walker, silent king, both codex, the Necron data cards, and the dice.
Kind of glad next weekends pre order all I want is the Deathmark Destroyer. Though I still want to buy the Deathmark mini from wargame exclusives.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
The start was rough and the last couple years have been rough but Magic the Gathering is a great example of balance done right in an incredibly complicated design, they had something like a 20 year span of really great balance at release. Even when they fucked it up in the last few sets (How the hell did Oko get printed?) they quickly and appropriately corrected the problem.
Their "secret" is spending time and money on carefully developing each new release. Shocking, I know! I don't want to be too hard on GW, since they really have tried in the last few years and correcting their mistakes every few months is so much better than the "every few years" they were doing before but... so many units are obviously bad or obviously great on paper, upon cursory inspection, the first time you read its rules.
If something overpowered combination or tactic develops organically that you didn't foresee, OK fine. But all those units you see in a codex and just immediately know are not worth fielding? The ones you read and think "wait, what the fuck"? Those really shouldn't happen.
So I was cleaning out that cupboard yesterday, you know the one, everyone had one, the one that hasn’t been touched in years.
Managed to find an unopened box of metal sternguard and perhaps more importantly for my current project, 90% of a metal nightbringer 14 year old me bought to use as a tzeentch demon.
It’s pretty nice to find 350 points for your current army build not gonna lie, especially when it’s this good. Just had to replace the scarabs and the blade, both thankfully easy replacements.
On the other hand Thunderwolf Calvary seem pretty awesome now.
Losing the extra attack aura and 5+++ for +1 Toughness and always-on Assault Doctrine?
They also can't advance and charge anymore, aren't a core unit so can't benefit from auras, and their shield got the nerf to 4++. I was expecting the shield so pretty meh.
Savage killers is definitely good and T5 is nice but losing the advance and charge is the biggest issue for me.
Stragint on
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Some Codices get updates on stuff that isn't technically identical with Marine weapons. For example craftworld dragon breath flamer got the range increase and all the admech plasma weapons got the updated gets hot rule.
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
On the other hand Thunderwolf Calvary seem pretty awesome now.
Losing the extra attack aura and 5+++ for +1 Toughness and always-on Assault Doctrine?
They also can't advance and charge anymore, aren't a core unit so can't benefit from auras, and their shield got the nerf to 4++. I was expecting the shield so pretty meh.
Savage killers is definitely good and T5 is nice but losing the advance and charge is the biggest issue for me.
That is a point. They even made Swift Killers a common special rule too…
Still, 4ppm cheaper with the assault launchers is nothing to sneeze at, and the frost claws are 10pts cheaper on top.
They didn't add 2W CSM in the FAQ like they said they would lol
Saw a chance to sell another book, because it's apparently coming with the new Codex... Which hasn't been announced
I think they specifically said the wounds updates weren't in a FAQ but tied to the upcoming codexes. It was the weapons that were being updated in a FAQ (if they were the same as marine weapons).
My Deathwatch are staying shelved till the supplement comes out and then I am going to *cough* preview it to see if I am keeping them. I didn't buy them to just play normal marines with a neat paint job and that is what they are looking like.
CSM even not getting the 2w which pisses me off but whatever got some nice stuff for certain units.
-Warp talons are base 3 attacks now instead of 2 with the lightning claw changes. 4 on the charge. 5 on the charge with world eaters. Their point change isn't way too bad at the moment.
-Raptors got a nice upgrade with the -1 ap sword and melta changes. Also the 12" flamers are good.
-Lucius got a buff! I know. The +1 strength on his power sword is really useful. Making him strength 5 is a huge boost to his usefulness.
-CSM Termis are pretty damn good still and its worth bringing reaper chainswords and heavy flamers for deep strikes. Heavy flamers being 12" range and reapers being ap -2 are really nice
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
*removes bolter+chainsword loadout for vanilla death company*
On the other hand Thunderwolf Calvary seem pretty awesome now.
Losing the extra attack aura and 5+++ for +1 Toughness and always-on Assault Doctrine?
They also can't advance and charge anymore, aren't a core unit so can't benefit from auras, and their shield got the nerf to 4++. I was expecting the shield so pretty meh.
Savage killers is definitely good and T5 is nice but losing the advance and charge is the biggest issue for me.
That is a point. They even made Swift Killers a common special rule too…
Still, 4ppm cheaper with the assault launchers is nothing to sneeze at, and the frost claws are 10pts cheaper on top.
Yea, I don't think they are bad, I'm just not happy with the hit to their mobility.
Basically always having the combat Doctrine and shock assault up will be brutal for anyone they get into contact with. I am curious if they also get relentless hunter off of Savage killers though I doubt it since the rule specifically called out shock assault.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
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Der Waffle MousBlame this on the misfortune of your birth.New Yark, New Yark.Registered Userregular
On the other hand Thunderwolf Calvary seem pretty awesome now.
Losing the extra attack aura and 5+++ for +1 Toughness and always-on Assault Doctrine?
They also can't advance and charge anymore, aren't a core unit so can't benefit from auras, and their shield got the nerf to 4++. I was expecting the shield so pretty meh.
Savage killers is definitely good and T5 is nice but losing the advance and charge is the biggest issue for me.
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
12” range hand flamers means my Metamorph flamebomb doesn’t need to use a 3 point stratagem to use their hand flamers and can now attempt a charge afterwards.
-Loki-Don't pee in my mouth and tell me it's raining.Registered Userregular
Ooohhh Cult units emerging from Ambush no longer automatically count as moving. This is also quite big, especially for surprise Mining Laser attacks.
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StragintDo Not GiftAlways DeclinesRegistered Userregular
I think what I'm most excited for with my Space Wolves and the new codex is that I can apparently use all those models I've been wanting to use. I can make my Oops All Dreadnoughts list more fun with some Ironclad Dreadnoughts and I can also use Centurions. I will wait to know for sure but gonna be stoked if it is real.
PSN: Reaper_Stragint, Steam: DoublePitstoChesty
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
My brother will be excited if the codex is not a copy paste mess like the previous one. and the iron out the blood claw-grey hunter/slayer-long fang system on primaris
As there are far too many units sporting long fang and blood claw shoulders
Typical GW to be inconsistent about what they update and what not. Tau get changes to all the ion guns to bring them in line with plasma weapons, but the warpflamer doesn't get an update.
I was expecting Xenos weapons to remain unchanged, but I'm genuinely surprised that Chaos marines didn't benefit from the shift to two wounds. It's got to feel real bad to be a Chaos player right now.
Posts
They are bad at both ends, and that is what is so frustrating. They are bad at balancing units initially, and then they are equally bad at not overreacting to whatever the meta is when they start writing a book. Was the Repulsor Executioner so OP it needs to be nerfed in to uselessness? Of course not...but what was happening around the time they were writing this book? Iron Hands was going crazy, Raven Guard centurions were all the rage and a few top players were abusing Aggressors. So they overreact nerf those, while also overtuning a new unit. I agree with you, it's icompetence more than malice....but that doesn't make it any less infuriating. I, like a lot of others, thought I saw signs of a change in them with 8th, but whatever faction internally was winning the rules battle at the start of 8th has decidedly been crushed and we're back to very classic GW yoyo rule making.
GW is particularly bad at it, but I can't say my forays to other companies games were met with the greener grass I was led to believe was there.
As usual, it came down to playing friendly games with friends having the most fun and variety just like 40k.
Kind of glad next weekends pre order all I want is the Deathmark Destroyer. Though I still want to buy the Deathmark mini from wargame exclusives.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Their "secret" is spending time and money on carefully developing each new release. Shocking, I know! I don't want to be too hard on GW, since they really have tried in the last few years and correcting their mistakes every few months is so much better than the "every few years" they were doing before but... so many units are obviously bad or obviously great on paper, upon cursory inspection, the first time you read its rules.
If something overpowered combination or tactic develops organically that you didn't foresee, OK fine. But all those units you see in a codex and just immediately know are not worth fielding? The ones you read and think "wait, what the fuck"? Those really shouldn't happen.
Managed to find an unopened box of metal sternguard and perhaps more importantly for my current project, 90% of a metal nightbringer 14 year old me bought to use as a tzeentch demon.
It’s pretty nice to find 350 points for your current army build not gonna lie, especially when it’s this good. Just had to replace the scarabs and the blade, both thankfully easy replacements.
Having seen the points page, it makes way more sense in the codex. The new point page layout in the book is *chefs kiss*
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2020/10/05/codex-updates-wargear-profiles-and-rules/
Deathwatch looks grim - No special issue ammunition on primaris, bikers, storm bolters
yikes
*for varying definitions of everyone
On the other hand Thunderwolf Calvary seem pretty awesome now.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Losing the extra attack aura and 5+++ for +1 Toughness and always-on Assault Doctrine? Edit: also 3ppm and cheaper weapons.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
Soooo.... I went and glued two outrider bikes together to make my own.
They also can't advance and charge anymore, aren't a core unit so can't benefit from auras, and their shield got the nerf to 4++. I was expecting the shield so pretty meh.
Savage killers is definitely good and T5 is nice but losing the advance and charge is the biggest issue for me.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
Saw a chance to sell another book, because it's apparently coming with the new Codex... Which hasn't been announced
You talk clean and bomb hospitals, so I speak with the foulest mouth possible
That is a point. They even made Swift Killers a common special rule too…
Still, 4ppm cheaper with the assault launchers is nothing to sneeze at, and the frost claws are 10pts cheaper on top.
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
I think they specifically said the wounds updates weren't in a FAQ but tied to the upcoming codexes. It was the weapons that were being updated in a FAQ (if they were the same as marine weapons).
CSM even not getting the 2w which pisses me off but whatever got some nice stuff for certain units.
-Warp talons are base 3 attacks now instead of 2 with the lightning claw changes. 4 on the charge. 5 on the charge with world eaters. Their point change isn't way too bad at the moment.
-Raptors got a nice upgrade with the -1 ap sword and melta changes. Also the 12" flamers are good.
-Lucius got a buff! I know. The +1 strength on his power sword is really useful. Making him strength 5 is a huge boost to his usefulness.
-CSM Termis are pretty damn good still and its worth bringing reaper chainswords and heavy flamers for deep strikes. Heavy flamers being 12" range and reapers being ap -2 are really nice
someone at GW is in my brain and *hates* me.
Good thing I only glued one of my strike squads to have full twin falchion loadout...
Wait, no! I only glued together my Grey Knight Kill Team, my 3 purgation squads, and one normal strike squad member! Go go Psykiku Sentai!
Yea, I don't think they are bad, I'm just not happy with the hit to their mobility.
Basically always having the combat Doctrine and shock assault up will be brutal for anyone they get into contact with. I am curious if they also get relentless hunter off of Savage killers though I doubt it since the rule specifically called out shock assault.
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
hey guess what didn't get updated with the rest of the flamer weapons?
They lost their FNP as well.
Gamertag - Khraul
PSN - Razide6
I am happy.
I'll pick "Everything the grey knights use" for 500, Alex!
dingdingdingdingding
What is the point of being alive if you don't at least try to do something remarkable? ~ Mario Novak
I never fear death or dyin', I only fear never trying.
As there are far too many units sporting long fang and blood claw shoulders
When their books come out.