The joint investigation by the BBC and the Independent has learnt that an experienced virologist who worked at the lab said he was "traumatised" and "freaked out" by seeing inexperienced colleagues unaware of the hazards they were dealing with.
Dr Julian Harris started working in laboratories dealing with highly infectious diseases in the 1980s.
But within one week of working at the Milton Keynes facility - which processes up to 30,000 tests a day - in early July, he was so troubled by what he saw he contacted the Health and Safety Executive (HSE).
and then promptly fired, because we don't want any of that project fear gubbins in our labs?
So the Mayor of Manchester is sticking to his guns on refusing to accept tier 3 for Manchester. Honestly he isn't wrong with what financial impact a tier 3 would have on any area with data even the Government doesn't support will work.
This just screams of trying to beat down on the northern regions.
Here's a vaguely US centric question. Why do people in the UK think that the tier system won't work, when far weaker restrictions managed to restore some level of control in Florida and Arizona during their major outbreaks in the summer?
Clearly a 2 or 3 week full circuit breaker followed by the tier system being clearly laid out would be better, but, it seems that the US has showed in our incompetent way that restrictions like the ones in the tiers can limit transmission.
The best way to imagine it is that throughout all the scientific data shows manchester was improving over the last week and London is getting worse. Far worse. To the point that there is rumblings from NHS whistleblowers that official data from London and other southern region areas have been massaging the data so it could be even worse than what the Government is saying for the southern regions. Yet until recently they have had between the bare minimum of restrictions to no restrictions imposed on them.
Then take the North West and other northern regions. Oldham for example 2 families went to a park 1 had covid and spread it to the two families. Both families imposed isolation and reported the cases. That was enough for the whole area to be put on red alert and have extra measures imposed. Despite it being a small area on the fringe of Oldham region no bigger than a few hundred meters. Despite scientific advisers saying there was no need for the approach in the area. This has been happening all over the place. Mainly in Labour MP areas.
Take Liverpool are now in the highest tier and under lockdown measures that will devastate businesses and peoples jobs. The reason why they accepted it? Chronic underfunding of the NHS in the area (where as southen Tory regions received massive vanity project funding) along with a massive Government building scandal have left them with a pitiful amount of hospitals and the worry was that the regions medical care would collapse soon. The Government's great plan to build nightingale hospitals decided to avoid that area despite it being the best place.
Take the scientific advice currently going is to not bother with these tiers because it will do nothing. Only a full shutdown will have any great effect on tackling the virus. But our Government has done absolutely everything possible to punish areas north of London all in a bid to keep London region running as normal.
Local lockdowns work if everywhere is treated the same. The UK knows right now that isn't the case.
The Mayor of Manchester also seems to be taking the stance that local lockdowns are fine as long as the government promises to support the local businesses that the lockdown would damage or kill.
For some reason our Conservative government seems very hesitant to make that promise about Labour-voting Manchester.
+11
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jaziekBad at everythingAnd mad about it.Registered Userregular
Starmer once again pulling the "very fine people on both sides" shite with regards to trans people.
Making me increasingly glad I chose to stop giving money to the labour party.
So the Mayor of Manchester is sticking to his guns on refusing to accept tier 3 for Manchester. Honestly he isn't wrong with what financial impact a tier 3 would have on any area with data even the Government doesn't support will work.
This just screams of trying to beat down on the northern regions.
Here's a vaguely US centric question. Why do people in the UK think that the tier system won't work, when far weaker restrictions managed to restore some level of control in Florida and Arizona during their major outbreaks in the summer?
Clearly a 2 or 3 week full circuit breaker followed by the tier system being clearly laid out would be better, but, it seems that the US has showed in our incompetent way that restrictions like the ones in the tiers can limit transmission.
The best way to imagine it is that throughout all the scientific data shows manchester was improving over the last week and London is getting worse. Far worse. To the point that there is rumblings from NHS whistleblowers that official data from London and other southern region areas have been massaging the data so it could be even worse than what the Government is saying for the southern regions. Yet until recently they have had between the bare minimum of restrictions to no restrictions imposed on them.
Then take the North West and other northern regions. Oldham for example 2 families went to a park 1 had covid and spread it to the two families. Both families imposed isolation and reported the cases. That was enough for the whole area to be put on red alert and have extra measures imposed. Despite it being a small area on the fringe of Oldham region no bigger than a few hundred meters. Despite scientific advisers saying there was no need for the approach in the area. This has been happening all over the place. Mainly in Labour MP areas.
Take Liverpool are now in the highest tier and under lockdown measures that will devastate businesses and peoples jobs. The reason why they accepted it? Chronic underfunding of the NHS in the area (where as southen Tory regions received massive vanity project funding) along with a massive Government building scandal have left them with a pitiful amount of hospitals and the worry was that the regions medical care would collapse soon. The Government's great plan to build nightingale hospitals decided to avoid that area despite it being the best place.
Take the scientific advice currently going is to not bother with these tiers because it will do nothing. Only a full shutdown will have any great effect on tackling the virus. But our Government has done absolutely everything possible to punish areas north of London all in a bid to keep London region running as normal.
Local lockdowns work if everywhere is treated the same. The UK knows right now that isn't the case.
Hmm, it looks like looking into it a bit more that the main obvious mistake is that there aren't any clear definitions people can look up to say, "I am in this tier due to these metrics"
IE, Tier 3 areas have infections above X OR hospital beds below Y OR test positivity above Z
and so on.
Which makes it seem like things are just being assigned randomly and unfairly? And, perhaps they are.
But again, all those criticisms also apply to the Florida, Texas and Arizona response. Random, arbitrary and seemingly unfair, without appropriate support and relying on an exhausted public to comply. Florida had a major outbreak. Double the current UK rate of hospitalizations per capita. Double the rate of infections. Worse controls than those described in the Tier System. I'm not praising the Florida response, or the Arizona one. It was a disaster. But, I don't see how the tier system is MORE of a disaster?
For example, in your own discussion you say that Manchester was improving over the past few weeks? It doesn't seem that Manchester was under a full lockdown for that time? If the rate of infection was slowing, the Tier regulations should just make it slow faster.
Is the concern not that it won't slow the virus, but instead that the tories will turn it into a political weapon to punish labor counties?
edit - And, to be clear, I don't want to advocate for disasterous responses. Unquestionably the UK should go into a 2 week lockdown right now, with the potential for an extension to 4 weeks, and develop a tier like structure to be applied beyond that. The USA should do the same. But, it just seems odd to me that everyone thinks that better restrictions than 'worked' in Florida won't work in the UK.
The local lockdowns are not worse than nothing at controlling the pandemic, but they are when it comes to businesses in the area as they're not 'real' lockdowns and so the support isn't there.
There resistance is less against the tier system in principle, but more that there is a lot more we should be doing - either as full scale lockdowns to control the virus, or local lockdowns with support for industries hit by them.
Going into Tier 3 (pubs that serve food stay open, so do schools, but you can't meet another family member in a residence) with very little support is just bad, when the government has talked about doing better approaches with circuit breakers - especially when the evidence seems to suggest that you just go into this mode and don't come out. It's not a real lockdown, anywhere that serves food has only limited support as it's ostensibly Business As Usual despite a Very High risk and max 30% capacity.
I've also completely lost the plot of what the hell the Brexit plan is now. BBC were reporting that they are going ahead with their plans to let lower courts over turn EU regulations (and not count past EU law as precedent), which is just going to sink any international trade as there will be literally thousands of lawsuits day 1 that will likely require the supreme court to weigh in on eventually.
So we're giving up on fishing, decided not to do agriculture in favour of cheap imports, abolished high tech manufacturing by removing supply chains, crippled science and medicine (via the high tech manufacturing, leaving the pan-european and global projects, plus putting barriers to free movement), don't have a resource extraction industry any more due to the last Tory government, haven't reached a deal on finance that lets some sort of passport for capital exist and therefore no one will have any money to support a service industry...
All this for state aid to a few chums? Which seems to be happening anyway.
It's like they've given up on even the easiest option there.
There has to be some other critical element I'm missing, other than looking at the Russian model.
The Speaker has announced that the sale of alcohol is to be banned in all House of Commons bars and restaurants despite London’s coronavirus restrictions still allowing licensed premises to operate freely.
Sir Lindsay Hoyle said the prohibition would come into effect on Saturday and would apply if “food is served or not”.
The move comes after the health secretary, Matt Hancock, announced that the capital would be placed in tier 2 status, under which indoor mixing between households is banned. Bars and restaurants, however, are allowed to remain open.
Balancing out when they were banned during the March lockdowns but the common's bar was still open under the guise of a 'workplace canteen'.
Incidentally, at the end of the lockdown when the Eat out to help out scheme was in effect, our Baxter Storey canteen just increased the price of a pre-packaged sandwich to £8. With a £10 meal deal for a sandwich, drink and crisps if I remember correctly.
So how many Labour MP's have resigned in the last 24 hours from the shadow?
I've lost count.
Two? Seems like a lot of faff over nothing TBH. Sure the bill sucks and is terrible but having a Labour internal spat over it when none of their votes make an iota of difference either way is just stupid. Just let everyone vote the way they want, avoid having another public spat and accept the fact that this is an entirely Tory decision. Much like every decision for the next four years. This is what "winning" the argument looks like! Yay!
So the Mayor of Manchester is sticking to his guns on refusing to accept tier 3 for Manchester. Honestly he isn't wrong with what financial impact a tier 3 would have on any area with data even the Government doesn't support will work.
This just screams of trying to beat down on the northern regions.
Here's a vaguely US centric question. Why do people in the UK think that the tier system won't work, when far weaker restrictions managed to restore some level of control in Florida and Arizona during their major outbreaks in the summer?
Clearly a 2 or 3 week full circuit breaker followed by the tier system being clearly laid out would be better, but, it seems that the US has showed in our incompetent way that restrictions like the ones in the tiers can limit transmission.
The best way to imagine it is that throughout all the scientific data shows manchester was improving over the last week and London is getting worse. Far worse. To the point that there is rumblings from NHS whistleblowers that official data from London and other southern region areas have been massaging the data so it could be even worse than what the Government is saying for the southern regions. Yet until recently they have had between the bare minimum of restrictions to no restrictions imposed on them.
Then take the North West and other northern regions. Oldham for example 2 families went to a park 1 had covid and spread it to the two families. Both families imposed isolation and reported the cases. That was enough for the whole area to be put on red alert and have extra measures imposed. Despite it being a small area on the fringe of Oldham region no bigger than a few hundred meters. Despite scientific advisers saying there was no need for the approach in the area. This has been happening all over the place. Mainly in Labour MP areas.
Take Liverpool are now in the highest tier and under lockdown measures that will devastate businesses and peoples jobs. The reason why they accepted it? Chronic underfunding of the NHS in the area (where as southen Tory regions received massive vanity project funding) along with a massive Government building scandal have left them with a pitiful amount of hospitals and the worry was that the regions medical care would collapse soon. The Government's great plan to build nightingale hospitals decided to avoid that area despite it being the best place.
Take the scientific advice currently going is to not bother with these tiers because it will do nothing. Only a full shutdown will have any great effect on tackling the virus. But our Government has done absolutely everything possible to punish areas north of London all in a bid to keep London region running as normal.
Local lockdowns work if everywhere is treated the same. The UK knows right now that isn't the case.
Hmm, it looks like looking into it a bit more that the main obvious mistake is that there aren't any clear definitions people can look up to say, "I am in this tier due to these metrics"
IE, Tier 3 areas have infections above X OR hospital beds below Y OR test positivity above Z
and so on.
Which makes it seem like things are just being assigned randomly and unfairly? And, perhaps they are.
But again, all those criticisms also apply to the Florida, Texas and Arizona response. Random, arbitrary and seemingly unfair, without appropriate support and relying on an exhausted public to comply. Florida had a major outbreak. Double the current UK rate of hospitalizations per capita. Double the rate of infections. Worse controls than those described in the Tier System. I'm not praising the Florida response, or the Arizona one. It was a disaster. But, I don't see how the tier system is MORE of a disaster?
For example, in your own discussion you say that Manchester was improving over the past few weeks? It doesn't seem that Manchester was under a full lockdown for that time? If the rate of infection was slowing, the Tier regulations should just make it slow faster.
Is the concern not that it won't slow the virus, but instead that the tories will turn it into a political weapon to punish labor counties?
edit - And, to be clear, I don't want to advocate for disasterous responses. Unquestionably the UK should go into a 2 week lockdown right now, with the potential for an extension to 4 weeks, and develop a tier like structure to be applied beyond that. The USA should do the same. But, it just seems odd to me that everyone thinks that better restrictions than 'worked' in Florida won't work in the UK.
The reality is that the tier system is unbalanced. Has been scientificly proven to have no beneficial effect to what was happening before it. It also takes control away from local councils to effectively deal with any rises in cases. In areas that were slowly dealing with the virus they have been put on a tier system that would make the rate of infection worse as it removes in place local measures to have a UK standard.
In fact with areas such as Leeds that had sufficient restrictions in place, the new tier system actually lifts those restrictions. Now on a course to make the areas rate of infection worse. So when the government decides that those areas need to be in tier 3 and destroys a number of businesses (Leeds was already the worst hit from the March lockdowns for unemployment) the councils point to when they had control and things were working before the Government fucked the area over as test subject for a flawed system.
I totally agree that a 2 week national lockdown is needed but the Government are refusing to allow that because it will devastate the economy (in London). Even when the mayor of London has been begging that London be placed in higher tier status.
The whole thing is obvious is isn't designed to save lives or control the rate of infection. Its designed to protect London economy.
The bigger problem that has been going on with the North South divide has happened for decades. All funding for major infrastructure medical and education projects being adjusted or outright cut/cancelled at the last minute by Central Government so they can throw the money into massive vanity projects that are beneficial to London only. Take the promises to improve public transport in the northern regions to improve the railways that have been an utter disaster. To have new motorway routes and bypass areas built to ease the congestion on older country roads between areas like Manchester and Leeds or Liverpool. All cancelled or massively scaled back. But on the same day announcement of a new London underground route that has been a massive money sink hole is getting billions of extra investment almost daily. Despite analysists saying it won't have more of a benefit and may take 200 years to recoup the investment.
Or HS2 railway fuckup that was supposed to connect the North and south for faster commutes being scaled back and changed yet having more billions thrown into it.
Why am I mentioning these? Because its what governments have done in the treatment of the north. Ignore it and hope private investors buy in quick deals. It shows the thinking behind tiered restrictions. Restrictions that should be distributed fairly and evenly. Yet we are seeing areas down south with the exact same rate as areas in the North being on totally different tier systems. All to the benefit of the mainly tory voting south.
Its a sham restriction measure that won't work unless its evenly distributed and has effective support. I will absolutely guarantee that once London has to go into tier 3 the magic tory money tree will throw out sufficient support measures for businesses in the area. All while other tier 3 areas have had weeks of job losses and businesses shut down for good.
So how many Labour MP's have resigned in the last 24 hours from the shadow?
I've lost count.
Two? Seems like a lot of faff over nothing TBH. Sure the bill sucks and is terrible but having a Labour internal spat over it when none of their votes make an iota of difference either way is just stupid. Just let everyone vote the way they want, avoid having another public spat and accept the fact that this is an entirely Tory decision. Much like every decision for the next four years. This is what "winning" the argument looks like! Yay!
The lack of pragmatism is what offends me. It shouldn't: I should be offended by the idea of letting security services commit crimes without consequence.
However, in the face of the fucking awful mess Corbyn did to Labour's reputation with the wider public, I'm more frustrated with Labour continuing to put up a disunited front. Again, from a more objective perspective (certainly, from a more moral perspective), the fault is with Starmer. And yet and yet and yet... given just how nakedly incompetent and corrupt this current government is, well, I guess I'm at the point where I'd give a favourable reference to the devil if he kicked the tories out of the Commons.
But maybe paraphrasing Churchill shows just how compromised I've become. Happy Friday, folks.
So the Mayor of Manchester is sticking to his guns on refusing to accept tier 3 for Manchester. Honestly he isn't wrong with what financial impact a tier 3 would have on any area with data even the Government doesn't support will work.
This just screams of trying to beat down on the northern regions.
Here's a vaguely US centric question. Why do people in the UK think that the tier system won't work, when far weaker restrictions managed to restore some level of control in Florida and Arizona during their major outbreaks in the summer?
Clearly a 2 or 3 week full circuit breaker followed by the tier system being clearly laid out would be better, but, it seems that the US has showed in our incompetent way that restrictions like the ones in the tiers can limit transmission.
The best way to imagine it is that throughout all the scientific data shows manchester was improving over the last week and London is getting worse. Far worse. To the point that there is rumblings from NHS whistleblowers that official data from London and other southern region areas have been massaging the data so it could be even worse than what the Government is saying for the southern regions. Yet until recently they have had between the bare minimum of restrictions to no restrictions imposed on them.
Then take the North West and other northern regions. Oldham for example 2 families went to a park 1 had covid and spread it to the two families. Both families imposed isolation and reported the cases. That was enough for the whole area to be put on red alert and have extra measures imposed. Despite it being a small area on the fringe of Oldham region no bigger than a few hundred meters. Despite scientific advisers saying there was no need for the approach in the area. This has been happening all over the place. Mainly in Labour MP areas.
Take Liverpool are now in the highest tier and under lockdown measures that will devastate businesses and peoples jobs. The reason why they accepted it? Chronic underfunding of the NHS in the area (where as southen Tory regions received massive vanity project funding) along with a massive Government building scandal have left them with a pitiful amount of hospitals and the worry was that the regions medical care would collapse soon. The Government's great plan to build nightingale hospitals decided to avoid that area despite it being the best place.
Take the scientific advice currently going is to not bother with these tiers because it will do nothing. Only a full shutdown will have any great effect on tackling the virus. But our Government has done absolutely everything possible to punish areas north of London all in a bid to keep London region running as normal.
Local lockdowns work if everywhere is treated the same. The UK knows right now that isn't the case.
Hmm, it looks like looking into it a bit more that the main obvious mistake is that there aren't any clear definitions people can look up to say, "I am in this tier due to these metrics"
IE, Tier 3 areas have infections above X OR hospital beds below Y OR test positivity above Z
and so on.
Which makes it seem like things are just being assigned randomly and unfairly? And, perhaps they are.
But again, all those criticisms also apply to the Florida, Texas and Arizona response. Random, arbitrary and seemingly unfair, without appropriate support and relying on an exhausted public to comply. Florida had a major outbreak. Double the current UK rate of hospitalizations per capita. Double the rate of infections. Worse controls than those described in the Tier System. I'm not praising the Florida response, or the Arizona one. It was a disaster. But, I don't see how the tier system is MORE of a disaster?
For example, in your own discussion you say that Manchester was improving over the past few weeks? It doesn't seem that Manchester was under a full lockdown for that time? If the rate of infection was slowing, the Tier regulations should just make it slow faster.
Is the concern not that it won't slow the virus, but instead that the tories will turn it into a political weapon to punish labor counties?
edit - And, to be clear, I don't want to advocate for disasterous responses. Unquestionably the UK should go into a 2 week lockdown right now, with the potential for an extension to 4 weeks, and develop a tier like structure to be applied beyond that. The USA should do the same. But, it just seems odd to me that everyone thinks that better restrictions than 'worked' in Florida won't work in the UK.
In fact with areas such as Leeds that had sufficient restrictions in place, the new tier system actually lifts those restrictions.
Welsh Government officials - including the first minister - have been meeting local authorities and key stakeholders over a potential "circuit-breaker".
BBC Wales has been told an announcement on a short limited lockdown will be made over the next few days.
How well this is going to work with only one part of GB doing it I don't know. Without England doing the same I fear this might be a very temporary reprieve at best
Starmer may well be playing too cautiously around security issues or stuff to do with the armed forces for fear of offending centrist potential voters or letting Johnson say AHA HE’S JUST LIKE CORBYN.
Given that the Tories have a massive majority and he can’t actually stop such bills voting against them is mostly symbolic, but that symbolism isn’t unimportant.
I think if he wants to separate himself from Corbyn priorities one through ten need to be avoiding as much public squabbling as possible. Yes putting a symbolic but futile resistance to this bill would be nice but it's so much less important than unity considering there is absolutely nothing Labour can do to prevent it.
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jaziekBad at everythingAnd mad about it.Registered Userregular
towards the end of this. The context is that the labour MP for canterbury is a terf running her mouth 24/7 on twitter. Two of her staff have quit over it, and she went on a tirade about it, outing one of them in the process.
towards the end of this. The context is that the labour MP for canterbury is a terf running her mouth 24/7 on twitter. Two of her staff have quit over it, and she went on a tirade about it, outing one of them in the process.
All he said there was "we need to detoxify the debate". Without a bit more to go on your interpretation seems to be jumping the gun a bit.
Casual on
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jaziekBad at everythingAnd mad about it.Registered Userregular
towards the end of this. The context is that the labour MP for canterbury is a terf running her mouth 24/7 on twitter. Two of her staff have quit over it, and she went on a tirade about it, outing one of them in the process.
All he said there was "we need to detocify the debate". Without a bit more to go on your interpretation seems to be jumping the gun a bit.
If you're at the point at which you're having a "debate" about a person's fundemental right to live, you've already fucked up.
towards the end of this. The context is that the labour MP for canterbury is a terf running her mouth 24/7 on twitter. Two of her staff have quit over it, and she went on a tirade about it, outing one of them in the process.
All he said there was "we need to detocify the debate". Without a bit more to go on your interpretation seems to be jumping the gun a bit.
If you're at the point at which you're having a "debate" about a person's fundemental right to live, you've already fucked up.
They are legitimising their bigotry.
I don't think Starmer should be blamed for the fact that there's a national debate about trans rights.
I think if he wants to separate himself from Corbyn priorities one through ten need to be avoiding as much public squabbling as possible. Yes putting a symbolic but futile resistance to this bill would be nice but it's so much less important than unity considering there is absolutely nothing Labour can do to prevent it.
While I get this, the bill is really awful in a variety of concrete and easily articulable ways
For instance, under this legislation, the government can, in principle, authorise an employee of the Food Standards Agency to murder someone
I think there were ways to put forward principled objections to this without inviting the Corbyn comparison
If there was a need to be weaselly about it there's always the old standard of "cannot support in its current form"
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jaziekBad at everythingAnd mad about it.Registered Userregular
towards the end of this. The context is that the labour MP for canterbury is a terf running her mouth 24/7 on twitter. Two of her staff have quit over it, and she went on a tirade about it, outing one of them in the process.
All he said there was "we need to detocify the debate". Without a bit more to go on your interpretation seems to be jumping the gun a bit.
If you're at the point at which you're having a "debate" about a person's fundemental right to live, you've already fucked up.
They are legitimising their bigotry.
I don't think Starmer should be blamed for the fact that there's a national debate about trans rights.
He should be blamed for ignoring his own party's stated positions on the "issue", and allowing his own MPs to contribute to the rising tide of hate directed towards a minority group.
towards the end of this. The context is that the labour MP for canterbury is a terf running her mouth 24/7 on twitter. Two of her staff have quit over it, and she went on a tirade about it, outing one of them in the process.
All he said there was "we need to detocify the debate". Without a bit more to go on your interpretation seems to be jumping the gun a bit.
If you're at the point at which you're having a "debate" about a person's fundemental right to live, you've already fucked up.
They are legitimising their bigotry.
I don't think Starmer should be blamed for the fact that there's a national debate about trans rights.
Pretty much. Refusing to engage because we're busy pretending we've already won the argument while the bigots are out there pushing their narratives is one of the most irritating and counterproductive mindsets that exists in the progressive left. While we sit there patting ourselves on the back for our refusal to engage the TERFs are making laws.
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jaziekBad at everythingAnd mad about it.Registered Userregular
edited October 2020
Right ok.
Our right to exist is up for debate.
Gotcha.
I know you're not up to speed with the current goings on around this, so let me be clear. There is no debate. There are people who want me dead, and they are not going to change their minds. You can't debate with hate. You can't find a middle ground with people who have no intention of listening. These are two fundementally incompatible positions. Either support our right to live, or don't. But don't fucking just step back and fence sit, and pretend like it's the "sensible" thing to do.
And trying to educate people about the difficulties that trans people face, and going out there and showing people that we're just normal human beings is important. I don't disagree that that is something that still needs to be done. But that is not the same as simply cowtowing to bigots. Saying "yeah, them tr***ys sure are fuckin weird aren't they, you're right, they shouldn't be allowed out in public should they". Which seems to be what you are suggesting.
In the literal sense the boundaries of Trans rights are being debated and defined right now? Yes, yes it is. I'm sorry that fact offends you. You're not going to find anyone in this thread that isn't on the pro-trans rights side of the debate but doubling down on the denial of the fact the debate is happening doesn't get us anywhere.
Casual on
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
towards the end of this. The context is that the labour MP for canterbury is a terf running her mouth 24/7 on twitter. Two of her staff have quit over it, and she went on a tirade about it, outing one of them in the process.
All he said there was "we need to detocify the debate". Without a bit more to go on your interpretation seems to be jumping the gun a bit.
If you're at the point at which you're having a "debate" about a person's fundemental right to live, you've already fucked up.
They are legitimising their bigotry.
On the one side you've got people being bigoted assholes, and on the other side you have people calling them out for being bigoted assholes. I don't think that a lack of civility is the core issue.
The question I have is if he's on this position because he doesn't think that trans rights will be a winner with the electorate, or if he doesn't think it will be a winner with Labour MPs and party members.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
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jaziekBad at everythingAnd mad about it.Registered Userregular
In the literal sense the boundaries of Trans rights are being debated and defined right now? Yes, yes it is. I'm sorry that fact offends you. You're not going to find anyone in this thread that isn't on the pro-trans rights side of the debate but doubling down on the denial of the fact the debate is happening doesn't get us anywhere.
The fact that it is happening is not what offends me. The fact that our supposed allies, Mr Starmer above, and apparently people in this thread. Staunchly refuse to take a side in this, is what offends me. It should be the easiest thing in the world, just to say "trans people are people" but no. we have to "detoxify" we have to "listen to concerns". Fuck off with that shit.
So the Mayor of Manchester is sticking to his guns on refusing to accept tier 3 for Manchester. Honestly he isn't wrong with what financial impact a tier 3 would have on any area with data even the Government doesn't support will work.
This just screams of trying to beat down on the northern regions.
Here's a vaguely US centric question. Why do people in the UK think that the tier system won't work, when far weaker restrictions managed to restore some level of control in Florida and Arizona during their major outbreaks in the summer?
Clearly a 2 or 3 week full circuit breaker followed by the tier system being clearly laid out would be better, but, it seems that the US has showed in our incompetent way that restrictions like the ones in the tiers can limit transmission.
The best way to imagine it is that throughout all the scientific data shows manchester was improving over the last week and London is getting worse. Far worse. To the point that there is rumblings from NHS whistleblowers that official data from London and other southern region areas have been massaging the data so it could be even worse than what the Government is saying for the southern regions. Yet until recently they have had between the bare minimum of restrictions to no restrictions imposed on them.
Then take the North West and other northern regions. Oldham for example 2 families went to a park 1 had covid and spread it to the two families. Both families imposed isolation and reported the cases. That was enough for the whole area to be put on red alert and have extra measures imposed. Despite it being a small area on the fringe of Oldham region no bigger than a few hundred meters. Despite scientific advisers saying there was no need for the approach in the area. This has been happening all over the place. Mainly in Labour MP areas.
Take Liverpool are now in the highest tier and under lockdown measures that will devastate businesses and peoples jobs. The reason why they accepted it? Chronic underfunding of the NHS in the area (where as southen Tory regions received massive vanity project funding) along with a massive Government building scandal have left them with a pitiful amount of hospitals and the worry was that the regions medical care would collapse soon. The Government's great plan to build nightingale hospitals decided to avoid that area despite it being the best place.
Take the scientific advice currently going is to not bother with these tiers because it will do nothing. Only a full shutdown will have any great effect on tackling the virus. But our Government has done absolutely everything possible to punish areas north of London all in a bid to keep London region running as normal.
Local lockdowns work if everywhere is treated the same. The UK knows right now that isn't the case.
Hmm, it looks like looking into it a bit more that the main obvious mistake is that there aren't any clear definitions people can look up to say, "I am in this tier due to these metrics"
IE, Tier 3 areas have infections above X OR hospital beds below Y OR test positivity above Z
and so on.
Which makes it seem like things are just being assigned randomly and unfairly? And, perhaps they are.
But again, all those criticisms also apply to the Florida, Texas and Arizona response. Random, arbitrary and seemingly unfair, without appropriate support and relying on an exhausted public to comply. Florida had a major outbreak. Double the current UK rate of hospitalizations per capita. Double the rate of infections. Worse controls than those described in the Tier System. I'm not praising the Florida response, or the Arizona one. It was a disaster. But, I don't see how the tier system is MORE of a disaster?
For example, in your own discussion you say that Manchester was improving over the past few weeks? It doesn't seem that Manchester was under a full lockdown for that time? If the rate of infection was slowing, the Tier regulations should just make it slow faster.
Is the concern not that it won't slow the virus, but instead that the tories will turn it into a political weapon to punish labor counties?
edit - And, to be clear, I don't want to advocate for disasterous responses. Unquestionably the UK should go into a 2 week lockdown right now, with the potential for an extension to 4 weeks, and develop a tier like structure to be applied beyond that. The USA should do the same. But, it just seems odd to me that everyone thinks that better restrictions than 'worked' in Florida won't work in the UK.
In fact with areas such as Leeds that had sufficient restrictions in place, the new tier system actually lifts those restrictions.
In the literal sense the boundaries of Trans rights are being debated and defined right now? Yes, yes it is. I'm sorry that fact offends you. You're not going to find anyone in this thread that isn't on the pro-trans rights side of the debate but doubling down on the denial of the fact the debate is happening doesn't get us anywhere.
The fact that it is happening is not what offends me. The fact that our supposed allies, Mr Starmer above, and apparently people in this thread. Staunchly refuse to take a side in this, is what offends me. It should be the easiest thing in the world, just to say "trans people are people" but no. we have to "detoxify" we have to "listen to concerns". Fuck off with that shit.
Condemn hate when you see it. Come on.
It's kind of hard to debate this when you're doing your best to try and make me defend statements that nether myself or anyone else in this thread actually said and no one in here agrees with! You're not the only non-cis person in this thread. You're not even the only non-cis person in this conversation.
It's kind of ironic that you're even proving Starmers point. This derailment started when you started accusing everyone who pointed out that legislation that defines Trans rights is being debated and put into law of being either outright transphobes or TERF apologists. You want everyone here to agree trans people are people? You got it! You're preaching to the choir in here! But if you want that to become an immutable legal fact and enjoy all the rights and protections that come with it you need to get that shit through parliament. That means a debate is happening. That means all the people who disagree, as distasteful as that is, get to use the system to have their say. This isn't a bug, it's a feature.
Believe me, the second I think Starmer is a transphobe or a TERF apologist I will get my outrage on. I don't think we're there yet though. For the time being until I see action or inaction on his part that convinces me otherwise I'll continue to think that Trans rights have a more promising future under a Labour government than a Tory one.
Guardian journalist. I dunno if anyone here is affected but I'd expect more areas to get this soon. I'm kind of surprised Nottingham, where I live, isn't in tier 3 already.
In the literal sense the boundaries of Trans rights are being debated and defined right now? Yes, yes it is. I'm sorry that fact offends you. You're not going to find anyone in this thread that isn't on the pro-trans rights side of the debate but doubling down on the denial of the fact the debate is happening doesn't get us anywhere.
The fact that it is happening is not what offends me. The fact that our supposed allies, Mr Starmer above, and apparently people in this thread. Staunchly refuse to take a side in this, is what offends me. It should be the easiest thing in the world, just to say "trans people are people" but no. we have to "detoxify" we have to "listen to concerns". Fuck off with that shit.
Condemn hate when you see it. Come on.
It's kind of hard to debate this when you're doing your best to try and make me defend statements that nether myself or anyone else in this thread actually said and no one in here agrees with! You're not the only non-cis person in this thread. You're not even the only non-cis person in this conversation.
It's kind of ironic that you're even proving Starmers point. This derailment started when you started accusing everyone who pointed out that legislation that defines Trans rights is being debated and put into law of being either outright transphobes or TERF apologists. You want everyone here to agree trans people are people? You got it! You're preaching to the choir in here! But if you want that to become an immutable legal fact and enjoy all the rights and protections that come with it you need to get that shit through parliament. That means a debate is happening. That means all the people who disagree, as distasteful as that is, get to use the system to have their say. This isn't a bug, it's a feature.
Believe me, the second I think Starmer is a transphobe or a TERF apologist I will get my outrage on. I don't think we're there yet though. For the time being until I see action or inaction on his part that convinces me otherwise I'll continue to think that Trans rights have a more promising future under a Labour government than a Tory one.
I never denied it was happening. As I said. What I find frustrating is that trans people are continually left to advocate for themselves. We recieve no support whatosever from cis "allies". This very evidently not a fight we can win on our own, but we are left to try and do so.
I and do think Starmer is a terf apologist. He has had every chance to say something about the bigotry that Rosie Duffield has been using her position of power to amplify. He could stop it today, if he chose to. But he won't. Whether that is because he actually agrees with her, or just because he believes it is politically advantageous to do nothing is not really relevant. He could do something, but he doesn't.
Also the pubs closing thing allows them to stay open if they're serving food, which is where people start asking what counts as food while hoping a bag of ready salted and a scotch egg will let them go to their local.
Also the pubs closing thing allows them to stay open if they're serving food, which is where people start asking what counts as food while hoping a bag of ready salted and a scotch egg will let them go to their local.
In Ireland when they did this, they defined it as a "substantial meal" that had to cost at least €9. It was widely ridiculed, and a lot of local pubs just partnered with the nearest takeaway, if they didn't have a kitchen.
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and then promptly fired, because we don't want any of that project fear gubbins in our labs?
I'm sure it'll be someone else's fault. Immigrants perhaps?
Its sadiq khan, duh.
The best way to imagine it is that throughout all the scientific data shows manchester was improving over the last week and London is getting worse. Far worse. To the point that there is rumblings from NHS whistleblowers that official data from London and other southern region areas have been massaging the data so it could be even worse than what the Government is saying for the southern regions. Yet until recently they have had between the bare minimum of restrictions to no restrictions imposed on them.
Then take the North West and other northern regions. Oldham for example 2 families went to a park 1 had covid and spread it to the two families. Both families imposed isolation and reported the cases. That was enough for the whole area to be put on red alert and have extra measures imposed. Despite it being a small area on the fringe of Oldham region no bigger than a few hundred meters. Despite scientific advisers saying there was no need for the approach in the area. This has been happening all over the place. Mainly in Labour MP areas.
Take Liverpool are now in the highest tier and under lockdown measures that will devastate businesses and peoples jobs. The reason why they accepted it? Chronic underfunding of the NHS in the area (where as southen Tory regions received massive vanity project funding) along with a massive Government building scandal have left them with a pitiful amount of hospitals and the worry was that the regions medical care would collapse soon. The Government's great plan to build nightingale hospitals decided to avoid that area despite it being the best place.
Take the scientific advice currently going is to not bother with these tiers because it will do nothing. Only a full shutdown will have any great effect on tackling the virus. But our Government has done absolutely everything possible to punish areas north of London all in a bid to keep London region running as normal.
Local lockdowns work if everywhere is treated the same. The UK knows right now that isn't the case.
For some reason our Conservative government seems very hesitant to make that promise about Labour-voting Manchester.
Making me increasingly glad I chose to stop giving money to the labour party.
Context please?
Hmm, it looks like looking into it a bit more that the main obvious mistake is that there aren't any clear definitions people can look up to say, "I am in this tier due to these metrics"
IE, Tier 3 areas have infections above X OR hospital beds below Y OR test positivity above Z
and so on.
Which makes it seem like things are just being assigned randomly and unfairly? And, perhaps they are.
But again, all those criticisms also apply to the Florida, Texas and Arizona response. Random, arbitrary and seemingly unfair, without appropriate support and relying on an exhausted public to comply. Florida had a major outbreak. Double the current UK rate of hospitalizations per capita. Double the rate of infections. Worse controls than those described in the Tier System. I'm not praising the Florida response, or the Arizona one. It was a disaster. But, I don't see how the tier system is MORE of a disaster?
For example, in your own discussion you say that Manchester was improving over the past few weeks? It doesn't seem that Manchester was under a full lockdown for that time? If the rate of infection was slowing, the Tier regulations should just make it slow faster.
Is the concern not that it won't slow the virus, but instead that the tories will turn it into a political weapon to punish labor counties?
edit - And, to be clear, I don't want to advocate for disasterous responses. Unquestionably the UK should go into a 2 week lockdown right now, with the potential for an extension to 4 weeks, and develop a tier like structure to be applied beyond that. The USA should do the same. But, it just seems odd to me that everyone thinks that better restrictions than 'worked' in Florida won't work in the UK.
There resistance is less against the tier system in principle, but more that there is a lot more we should be doing - either as full scale lockdowns to control the virus, or local lockdowns with support for industries hit by them.
Going into Tier 3 (pubs that serve food stay open, so do schools, but you can't meet another family member in a residence) with very little support is just bad, when the government has talked about doing better approaches with circuit breakers - especially when the evidence seems to suggest that you just go into this mode and don't come out. It's not a real lockdown, anywhere that serves food has only limited support as it's ostensibly Business As Usual despite a Very High risk and max 30% capacity.
I've also completely lost the plot of what the hell the Brexit plan is now. BBC were reporting that they are going ahead with their plans to let lower courts over turn EU regulations (and not count past EU law as precedent), which is just going to sink any international trade as there will be literally thousands of lawsuits day 1 that will likely require the supreme court to weigh in on eventually.
So we're giving up on fishing, decided not to do agriculture in favour of cheap imports, abolished high tech manufacturing by removing supply chains, crippled science and medicine (via the high tech manufacturing, leaving the pan-european and global projects, plus putting barriers to free movement), don't have a resource extraction industry any more due to the last Tory government, haven't reached a deal on finance that lets some sort of passport for capital exist and therefore no one will have any money to support a service industry...
All this for state aid to a few chums? Which seems to be happening anyway.
It's like they've given up on even the easiest option there.
There has to be some other critical element I'm missing, other than looking at the Russian model.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/15/sale-alcohol-banned-in-house-of-commons-coronavirus
I think I can hear harrumphing.
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Incidentally, at the end of the lockdown when the Eat out to help out scheme was in effect, our Baxter Storey canteen just increased the price of a pre-packaged sandwich to £8. With a £10 meal deal for a sandwich, drink and crisps if I remember correctly.
I've lost count.
Two? Seems like a lot of faff over nothing TBH. Sure the bill sucks and is terrible but having a Labour internal spat over it when none of their votes make an iota of difference either way is just stupid. Just let everyone vote the way they want, avoid having another public spat and accept the fact that this is an entirely Tory decision. Much like every decision for the next four years. This is what "winning" the argument looks like! Yay!
The reality is that the tier system is unbalanced. Has been scientificly proven to have no beneficial effect to what was happening before it. It also takes control away from local councils to effectively deal with any rises in cases. In areas that were slowly dealing with the virus they have been put on a tier system that would make the rate of infection worse as it removes in place local measures to have a UK standard.
In fact with areas such as Leeds that had sufficient restrictions in place, the new tier system actually lifts those restrictions. Now on a course to make the areas rate of infection worse. So when the government decides that those areas need to be in tier 3 and destroys a number of businesses (Leeds was already the worst hit from the March lockdowns for unemployment) the councils point to when they had control and things were working before the Government fucked the area over as test subject for a flawed system.
I totally agree that a 2 week national lockdown is needed but the Government are refusing to allow that because it will devastate the economy (in London). Even when the mayor of London has been begging that London be placed in higher tier status.
The whole thing is obvious is isn't designed to save lives or control the rate of infection. Its designed to protect London economy.
The bigger problem that has been going on with the North South divide has happened for decades. All funding for major infrastructure medical and education projects being adjusted or outright cut/cancelled at the last minute by Central Government so they can throw the money into massive vanity projects that are beneficial to London only. Take the promises to improve public transport in the northern regions to improve the railways that have been an utter disaster. To have new motorway routes and bypass areas built to ease the congestion on older country roads between areas like Manchester and Leeds or Liverpool. All cancelled or massively scaled back. But on the same day announcement of a new London underground route that has been a massive money sink hole is getting billions of extra investment almost daily. Despite analysists saying it won't have more of a benefit and may take 200 years to recoup the investment.
Or HS2 railway fuckup that was supposed to connect the North and south for faster commutes being scaled back and changed yet having more billions thrown into it.
Why am I mentioning these? Because its what governments have done in the treatment of the north. Ignore it and hope private investors buy in quick deals. It shows the thinking behind tiered restrictions. Restrictions that should be distributed fairly and evenly. Yet we are seeing areas down south with the exact same rate as areas in the North being on totally different tier systems. All to the benefit of the mainly tory voting south.
Its a sham restriction measure that won't work unless its evenly distributed and has effective support. I will absolutely guarantee that once London has to go into tier 3 the magic tory money tree will throw out sufficient support measures for businesses in the area. All while other tier 3 areas have had weeks of job losses and businesses shut down for good.
The lack of pragmatism is what offends me. It shouldn't: I should be offended by the idea of letting security services commit crimes without consequence.
However, in the face of the fucking awful mess Corbyn did to Labour's reputation with the wider public, I'm more frustrated with Labour continuing to put up a disunited front. Again, from a more objective perspective (certainly, from a more moral perspective), the fault is with Starmer. And yet and yet and yet... given just how nakedly incompetent and corrupt this current government is, well, I guess I'm at the point where I'd give a favourable reference to the devil if he kicked the tories out of the Commons.
But maybe paraphrasing Churchill shows just how compromised I've become. Happy Friday, folks.
Wait, really?
*Googles tier rules*
Christ, I'm so confused and exhausted
Handy postcode checker for those of you not sure
I'm still Medium, not that it matters - everybody I know is in a High area
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https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54566566
How well this is going to work with only one part of GB doing it I don't know. Without England doing the same I fear this might be a very temporary reprieve at best
Given that the Tories have a massive majority and he can’t actually stop such bills voting against them is mostly symbolic, but that symbolism isn’t unimportant.
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towards the end of this. The context is that the labour MP for canterbury is a terf running her mouth 24/7 on twitter. Two of her staff have quit over it, and she went on a tirade about it, outing one of them in the process.
All he said there was "we need to detoxify the debate". Without a bit more to go on your interpretation seems to be jumping the gun a bit.
If you're at the point at which you're having a "debate" about a person's fundemental right to live, you've already fucked up.
They are legitimising their bigotry.
I don't think Starmer should be blamed for the fact that there's a national debate about trans rights.
While I get this, the bill is really awful in a variety of concrete and easily articulable ways
For instance, under this legislation, the government can, in principle, authorise an employee of the Food Standards Agency to murder someone
I think there were ways to put forward principled objections to this without inviting the Corbyn comparison
If there was a need to be weaselly about it there's always the old standard of "cannot support in its current form"
He should be blamed for ignoring his own party's stated positions on the "issue", and allowing his own MPs to contribute to the rising tide of hate directed towards a minority group.
Pretty much. Refusing to engage because we're busy pretending we've already won the argument while the bigots are out there pushing their narratives is one of the most irritating and counterproductive mindsets that exists in the progressive left. While we sit there patting ourselves on the back for our refusal to engage the TERFs are making laws.
Our right to exist is up for debate.
Gotcha.
I know you're not up to speed with the current goings on around this, so let me be clear. There is no debate. There are people who want me dead, and they are not going to change their minds. You can't debate with hate. You can't find a middle ground with people who have no intention of listening. These are two fundementally incompatible positions. Either support our right to live, or don't. But don't fucking just step back and fence sit, and pretend like it's the "sensible" thing to do.
And trying to educate people about the difficulties that trans people face, and going out there and showing people that we're just normal human beings is important. I don't disagree that that is something that still needs to be done. But that is not the same as simply cowtowing to bigots. Saying "yeah, them tr***ys sure are fuckin weird aren't they, you're right, they shouldn't be allowed out in public should they". Which seems to be what you are suggesting.
In the literal sense the boundaries of Trans rights are being debated and defined right now? Yes, yes it is. I'm sorry that fact offends you. You're not going to find anyone in this thread that isn't on the pro-trans rights side of the debate but doubling down on the denial of the fact the debate is happening doesn't get us anywhere.
On the one side you've got people being bigoted assholes, and on the other side you have people calling them out for being bigoted assholes. I don't think that a lack of civility is the core issue.
The question I have is if he's on this position because he doesn't think that trans rights will be a winner with the electorate, or if he doesn't think it will be a winner with Labour MPs and party members.
The fact that it is happening is not what offends me. The fact that our supposed allies, Mr Starmer above, and apparently people in this thread. Staunchly refuse to take a side in this, is what offends me. It should be the easiest thing in the world, just to say "trans people are people" but no. we have to "detoxify" we have to "listen to concerns". Fuck off with that shit.
Condemn hate when you see it. Come on.
So 26th September Leeds put through new local restrictions that included, no mixing of households both inside and outside of homes.
https://yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/health/coronavirus/leeds-local-lockdown-force-everything-you-need-know-leeds-placed-under-lockdown-restrictions-2984253
The new tier system puts Leeds area of Tier 2
Suddenly you are allowed to mix in no more than groups of 6 outdoors.
Shambolic.
It's kind of hard to debate this when you're doing your best to try and make me defend statements that nether myself or anyone else in this thread actually said and no one in here agrees with! You're not the only non-cis person in this thread. You're not even the only non-cis person in this conversation.
It's kind of ironic that you're even proving Starmers point. This derailment started when you started accusing everyone who pointed out that legislation that defines Trans rights is being debated and put into law of being either outright transphobes or TERF apologists. You want everyone here to agree trans people are people? You got it! You're preaching to the choir in here! But if you want that to become an immutable legal fact and enjoy all the rights and protections that come with it you need to get that shit through parliament. That means a debate is happening. That means all the people who disagree, as distasteful as that is, get to use the system to have their say. This isn't a bug, it's a feature.
Believe me, the second I think Starmer is a transphobe or a TERF apologist I will get my outrage on. I don't think we're there yet though. For the time being until I see action or inaction on his part that convinces me otherwise I'll continue to think that Trans rights have a more promising future under a Labour government than a Tory one.
Guardian journalist. I dunno if anyone here is affected but I'd expect more areas to get this soon. I'm kind of surprised Nottingham, where I live, isn't in tier 3 already.
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I never denied it was happening. As I said. What I find frustrating is that trans people are continually left to advocate for themselves. We recieve no support whatosever from cis "allies". This very evidently not a fight we can win on our own, but we are left to try and do so.
I and do think Starmer is a terf apologist. He has had every chance to say something about the bigotry that Rosie Duffield has been using her position of power to amplify. He could stop it today, if he chose to. But he won't. Whether that is because he actually agrees with her, or just because he believes it is politically advantageous to do nothing is not really relevant. He could do something, but he doesn't.
and I will add this, for context. This is the issue we are talking about https://www.pinknews.co.uk/2020/10/15/rosie-duffield-lgbt-labour-mp-transphobia-heather-peto-melantha-chittenden/
I think that bit is up in the air.
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It's like DEFCON levels
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In Ireland when they did this, they defined it as a "substantial meal" that had to cost at least €9. It was widely ridiculed, and a lot of local pubs just partnered with the nearest takeaway, if they didn't have a kitchen.