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Frenchie vs pugs?
Warren Probert
Registered User new member
Registered User new member
I am thinking of getting one of these dog breeds but cant figure out which one to get. I am looking for a affectionate friendly with everyone type of small dog. Any opinions On which would be better? For anyone who have had both of these dogs at 1 point can you describe how they were and which ones personality was better for your household and why? Any differences you noticed would also be appreciated.
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-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
You will deal with two kinds of people that criticize you for owning pugs however. The first thinks that dogs should be bred for something other than companionship and say the dog is useless. Usually these are the type that have a larger dog for hunting or a pit bull to protect the family. The second thinks pugs suffer from health problems more so than any other pure bred dog. They don't. Yes their short muzzles cause them to overheat easier, but pugs are inside dogs. No, they don't struggle to breathe. No, their eyes don't pop out. As for actual health issues, they have a few, sure.
Biggest downside is the double coat of fur. They shed constantly. If you have dark hard wood floors it will be very noticable.
You could just go buy any other puppy and not have those headaches. Depending on your financial situation, spending that much might be insane.
Personally I consider a puppy that will be with my family between 10-16 years to be something worth putting that much money and effort into getting exactly what I want.
THey're still too shortnosed for my taste, but the breed overall is much healthier than both pugs and french bulldogs. Also. They generally fart less (unlike pugs and frenchies that are notorious for being gassy).
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
How are you determining that the breed is overall much healthier? That sounds suspiciously like internet knowledge.
No one's going to dig up veterinarian journals to prove their point here. Both are brachycephalic breeds and will suffer from eyes/heart/back problems. Boston terriers appear to not suffer on the same scale due to being less in demand than pug and french bulldogs (thus less over and inbreeding). They're also a little bit larger so will suffer less digestive problems because their digestive system is a little bit longer as well (the gas issue).
1. I'm friends with vetrinarians and a lot of acquaintances are dog owners. It comes up.
2. Lifespan statistics are readily available.
3. Your average insurance company will take 30% more on average in monthly fees for a French bulldog than a Boston terrier. Even more if it's a non-castrated female.
P.S: There is no strict relation between size and gassiness. But from speculation it's genetic. Many breeds that are descended from English bulldog stock tend to be sensitive and prone to low-intensity food allergies. Some breeds with a reputation for being farty aren't related at all though (like yorkshire terriers and goldens).
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
I will! Because I'm just that much of a nerd.
O’Neill, D.G., Darwent, E.C., Church, D.B. et al. Demography and health of Pugs under primary veterinary care in England. Canine Genet Epidemiol 3, 5 (2016). https://doi.org/10.1186/s40575-016-0035-z
Roedler, F. S., Pohl, S., & Oechtering, G. U. (2013). How does severe brachycephaly affect dog’s lives? Results of a structured preoperative owner questionnaire. The Veterinary Journal, 198(3), 606–610. doi:10.1016/j.tvjl.2013.09.009
O’Neill, D.G., Jackson, C., Guy, J.H. et al. Epidemiological associations between brachycephaly and upper respiratory tract disorders in dogs attending veterinary practices in England. Canine Genet Epidemiol 2, 10 (2015). https://doi.org/10.1186/s40575-015-0023-8
Farrow, T., Keown, A., & Farnworth, M. (2014). An exploration of attitudes towards pedigree dogs and their disorders as expressed by a sample of companion animal veterinarians in New Zealand. New Zealand Veterinary Journal, 62(5), 267–273. doi:10.1080/00480169.2014.902340
Packer, R., Hendricks, A., & Burn, C. (2012). Do dog owners perceive the clinical signs related to conformational inherited disorders as “normal” for the breed? A potential constraint to improving canine welfare. Animal Welfare, 21(1), 81–93. doi:10.7120/096272812x13345905673809
Also from Packer et al (2012). Pug and bulldog owners underestimate the severity of breathing problems in their own dogs:
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Pugs are great dogs but anyone trying to downplay their potential for serious health issues are... lets just go with incorrect.
The statistics nerd interest of mine pops up for that table. Is the Boston actually healthier, or are there a bunch of 0 values for nations that don't have Boston Terriers bringing the average down? The Boston has moderately high values on that table everywhere that isn't a 0 outlier. Also I obviously like Bostons, but having owned them I anecdotally observed plenty of breathing and farting problems.
@Darkewolfe Yep, that's a good point. You're right. In an ideal world, we could control for the size of the populations of the respective species, otherwise we can't be totally sure if Bostons are actually healthier. When I was doing my search, I was really focusing more on the health problems of pugs and French bulldogs (because that was the question in the OP). I wasn't focusing on the relative health of Boston Terriers (which I recognize was the point of contention between bowen and furbat).
But to be honest, I don't think we have to get that rigorous. First off, we can see from some of those articles that veterinarians and kennel clubs consider pugs and bulldogs to be of particular concern among all dog breeds. The UK Kennel Club puts pugs and bulldogs in breed watch category 3, or highest risk of health problems. They put Bostons in category 2. Still problematic, but not as bad on average as pugs or bulldogs.
In another journal search focused more on Bostons, I come across passages like this:
Bertilsson, Ida. "Phenotypic variation for BOAS within four brachycephalic dog breeds." Degree Project in Animal Science, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences (2019).
Or this study, which attempted to model predicted BOAS risk across different breeds (controlling for sample sizes). Bostons had higher risk than most of the breeds studied, but lower than pugs or bulldogs.
Packer, Rowena MA, et al. "Impact of facial conformation on canine health: brachycephalic obstructive airway syndrome." PLoS One 10.10 (2015): e0137496.
BOAS isn't the only problem here. All of these dogs also have high risk of eye diseases, because they've been bred to have large eyes. That can include glaucoma, difficulty blinking, eyelids that can't close all the way, and irritation or even injury from hairs or foreign objects rubbing against the eyeball. This study is kind of interesting because it showed a counterintuitive pattern. French Bulldogs had higher rates of ulcerative keratitis of the eye (Grade 1, abbreviated G1 in this table) than major ulcerative keratitis (G3). Pugs had higher rates of major UK than minor UK. Bostons were in the middle.
Iwashita, H, Wakaiki, S, Kazama, Y, Saito, A. Breed prevalence of canine ulcerative keratitis according to depth of corneal involvement. Vet Ophthalmol. (2020); 23: 849– 855. https://doi.org/10.1111/vop.12808
So yeah I totally admit that none of this is an unassailable slam dunk for the generalization that Bostons tend to be healthier than pugs or bulldogs, but I think it's a safe bet.
the "no true scotch man" fallacy.
Personally I've always found that when risk is concerned you're rarely going to beat the predictions of a respectable insurance company. Insurance company statistics is, according to the professor I had in statistics, the foulest of statistical alchemy. But it works.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
YMMV of course.
I volunteer as tribute!
Hit a local shelter or look up some rescues. I love my mutt. We got genetic testing done to find out what she is and it literally came back as mega mutt... She came spayed and cost like $50 for fees, registering, and microchipping. Best dog ever and everyone at the dog park thinks she is adorable.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/profiles/76561198004484595
How do you know about....*looks at name* ofcourse you know.
-Antje Jackelén, Archbishop of the Church of Sweden
Steampug
I'm not a dog person, but if I was, I would not get an older dog as a rescue.
YMMV.
Puppies of course come with their own set of challenges. Hope you don't like sleeping for a few months!
My wife has been regularly volunteering at the humane society for a few years now and they've turned around countless dogs surrendered by crappy owners for bad behavior. And I mean turned around like treated and trained the dog well and it became a well-behaved joy to be around, not just that they got it adopted.
And I suspect you're using older to refer to ">2" here, but fwiw the actual older dogs at rescues are hidden gems. They're mellow, most are well-trained, and they're infinitely less headache than a puppy.
Edit: Also, as my wife pointed out, besides being able to easily help dogs who may come in less than perfect, shelters aren't just places where dogs abandoned by bad owners end up. Very good dogs with very good owners get surrendered all the time because the owner died, had to move, lost their job and so on.
My mom fostered dobermans for quite a while when I was a kid; we had a small but 2-story house, which probably made the number of these giant dogs we took in possible as they could be separated either temporarily or for the duration of their stay if needed. For a while most of her social contact was with other people fostering dobermans, so I saw a lot of rescue dogs and this is just my perspective.
First, all rescue organizations are different, and rescues for different breeds are different, and you should do a ton of research on both the organization and (where possible) ask around about the person doing the fostering. If you have your heart set on a specific breed these places may be worth a look. They'll tend to take dogs they feel have the best shot at being adopted, and because they have been taken into someone's home you'll get a much more personal account of how they are with furniture, kids, other animals, how possessive they are of people and things, etc. Many do temperament testing before adopting out but ymmv on temperament-testing adult dogs. Those dropped off to rescue organizations will often have been brought in for reasons other than neglect, but you can find both. Just make sure the people who are part of or foster for the organization are scrupulous.
We had all kinds come through: pure bred dogs, mutts that looked vaguely like dobermans, dogs of all ages, some that needed training, some that absolutely required a lot of human attention not to sink into depression and some that were very friendly but otherwise generally independent dogs. Some were incredibly sharp and some were among the dumbest dogs I have ever seen. Some had been badly neglected or found on the street but were still very sweet. There were a few whose owners had died and they were just the saddest to see; they were the ones who would sit by the door and wait. So many were really great dogs we got to see go to good homes.
My mom ultimately got out of it after a couple years; it's exhausting especially for larger dogs, and she wasn't really happy with the way our local chapter was run. She'd often end up paying out of pocket for things the rescue was supposed to cover, and considering how much vet bills can run for an intake exam/treatments we didn't really have enough money for that to be sustainable for us. She didn't get much say in which dogs we were handed, how long we would have them in our house, who was allowed to adopt, or if the dog was to be put to sleep, and she definitely wasn't okay with 100% of the decisions that were made or how some of the dogs got shuffled around. But the person who ran the chapter was... oddly codependent, and my mom sometimes has a hard time saying no. There are a lot of chapters and organizations that are way better than that one though, and some that are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay worse. It can be a really great way to go if you are willing to put in the time and effort to do research, but you really need to do that.
Okay. If you say so.
I've seen two dogs with severe anxiety now that came from the pound. Great owners, train the heck out of them, spoil the heck out of them. One owner is a vet so she maybe knows what she's doing. Not sure when she got her dog. The other owners were a first time dog owner but seemed like they were doing well (you could leave your plate at nose level and he'd ignore the food on it! He didn't jump! He was quiet in the house!). This dog was ~1 year old when they got him and who knows what had been done to him before.
Neither dog could be left alone for any significant period of time or they'd bark like crazy and wreck shit. Yes, both are crate trained, yes, both attempted to gradually lengthen the period of time they're in the crate--there's just some critical time beyond which the dogs seem to have decided they can't be alone anymore.
That's two people I know with pound puppies that are otherwise mostly good dogs, but that have mental health issues that are seemingly incurable.
Yes, usually it's the owners, but sometimes it's also the dog.
I can point at a friend who has a one year old dog that's jumping, barking, and nosing at the table and say, yup, that's a bad dog owner, not a bad dog. That isn't the case for the above two.