Handsome CostanzaAsk me about 8bitdoRIP Iwata-sanRegistered Userregular
I've never really been a framerate guy, basically anything 25 and above and I'm cool with it. I can even tolerate 20fps pretty well if it's consistent.
Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
So long as the frame rate is steady I don't really. I only notice when there are big swings. Like, I don't think I can tell the difference. I'd love to be proven wrong though if someone can find me a PS5 to buy.
Yeah the fidelity difference in DS is a locked frame size (4k I think) vs a variable resolution in performance - but again in performance everything looks so sharp and crisp I don't feel that I'm missing anything.
In Miles, fidelity mode and ray tracing seriously, genuinely make the world feel bigger and more real as you fly towards a skyscraper with the entire, accurate world behind you reflected in its windows.
It's really profound and I didn't think it would make such a difference.
'Chance, you are the best kind of whore.' -Henroid
Regarding people not "noticing framerate", there is some anecdotal reporting from a bunch of games people that people who said this to them for many years now absolutely notice/care because the next gen consoles are allowing them to flip between them at will, much like a PC game might.
They never noticed or cared before because nothing they played ran above 30.
Ninja Snarl PMy helmet is my burden.Ninja Snarl: Gone, but not forgotten.Registered Userregular
Yeah, I just don't buy that people can't tell the difference between 30/60/144 unless they've only ever seen 30 FPS and simply have never seen reliably smooth-running 60 or 144. Depending on the game, I don't necessarily mind framerate as low as 30 FPS, but I can 1000% percent tell the difference between those three FPS targets even if the number isn't on the screen. But I also play on PC, Switch, and PS4 on three different types of screen, so I have a load of comparisons right there in front of me.
+1
Options
Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
I have a 144hz monitor and I can not tell if it is actually working. We do exist.
Yeah my second monitor is 60hz and my primary monitor is 144hz. Dragging a window between the two is the easiest way to see the difference. It's buttery smooth on the 144hz one.
I usually don’t mind frame rates, but I went from the next gen upgrade borderlands at about 60fps to destiny 2 at 30fps and destiny 2 felt unplayable. I think it impacts different games in different ways, but first person shooters I feel it’s much more noticeable in
Yeah, I just don't buy that people can't tell the difference between 30/60/144 unless they've only ever seen 30 FPS and simply have never seen reliably smooth-running 60 or 144. Depending on the game, I don't necessarily mind framerate as low as 30 FPS, but I can 1000% percent tell the difference between those three FPS targets even if the number isn't on the screen. But I also play on PC, Switch, and PS4 on three different types of screen, so I have a load of comparisons right there in front of me.
I'm old. I just turned 54 a few months ago. You are majorly underestimating the effect of aging on vision.
I have extremely poor vision. My glasses prescription is 7+ diopters.
I have a ton of 'floaters' in my eyes. You know how things look in a game when there is a fire or underwater effect? I see that All. The. Time. in real life.
Again, I'm old. The time it takes me to actually "see" something on the screen is about 10 to 15ms. That is, if something is only visible for a frame or two, it is effectively "invisible" to me. It's not that my reaction times are too slow, it takes that long for my eyes to pick up the image, send it to my brain and have it recognized.
For me, and people like me, we literally cannot see high frame rates. You know the Spiderverse movie where they made such a big deal out of variable frame rates and whatnot? I own that movie on blueray and I've rewatched it maybe a half-dozen times. If you held a gun to my head and told me you were going to shoot me if I didn't press a button when the frame rate changed, I would be dead now.
+1
Options
AbsoluteZeroThe new film by Quentin KoopantinoRegistered Userregular
30fps doesn't bother me. Hell most movies are 24fps. It just has to be consistent. It's when the frame rate drops that bugs me.
Also, this is the first time many people have gotten the opportunity to see 30 and 60 essentially side-by-side. If you took the average person, showed them a video, waited five minutes and showed them a different video, I'm betting a lot of people wouldn't be able to tell the difference unless you spelled it out for them.
That said, having seen them both, I could not tell the difference between 60fps and 120fps in Ori and the Will of the Wisps, despite being able to near instantly flip between them. I wound up playing it in 6k supersampled instead, which I just barely noticed a differenced with.
Undead Scottsman on
0
Options
Librarian's ghostLibrarian, Ghostbuster, and TimSporkRegistered Userregular
Fun fact. I just checked and even though 144Hz was turned on the Nvidia control panel it was not turned on in the windows display settings. I did so. I then switched back and forth and I could MAYBE notice the mouse cursor moving more smoothly at 144.
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
edited November 2020
It's not that I can't see it.
It's that I adjust so quickly that if I am forced onto 30fps, I don't overly care. It takes about 2 minutes and I'm completely fine with it. If it starts at 30fps, I already don't care.
[*]Again, I'm old. The time it takes me to actually "see" something on the screen is about 10 to 15ms. That is, if something is only visible for a frame or two, it is effectively "invisible" to me. It's not that my reaction times are too slow, it takes that long for my eyes to pick up the image, send it to my brain and have it recognized.
I just wanted to point out that this is not due to age and is normal. See this paper. Also a frame at 60fps is 16.67 ms so you should be able to notice a 1 frame thing if you only take 10-15ms to see something.
I'm not disputing anything you say about not being able to notice framerate changes. I believe you. I'm just giving you some information about normal numbers. I suspect its your other vision problems, not necessarily your age, that is causing your issues in this case.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
0
Options
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
edited November 2020
Depends on the game for me as to whether I care. Given a choice, with little fidelity loss, I'll always prefer 60+...but there are games I care less and will accept 30 if it's smooth. Demon's Souls is a game I will definitely give up some visual fidelity for 60 no question. Spider-Man? I'll take the visual fidelity because it does look incredible.
I can always tell the difference though. It's jarring and obvious to me, especially if I go from 60 to 30 very quickly. 30 will feel like swimming in molasses. I agree with what others are saying about smoothness of the frame rate as well. I can handle 30, but jumpy or unsmooth 30 will drive me nuts. I think Bloodborne is one of the best games ever made, but it's inconsistent frame pacing and barely locked 30 on PS4 Pro/PS5 (it couldn't hold 30 on the OG PS4) are jarring and a big reason I haven't done another playthrough in a while.
Frame rate drops are jarring and obvious to me, and they annoy the heck out of me. The difference between 30/60 fps is basically not something I've ever noticed, and I can't imagine I'd ever care about it. If you put them side-by-side I bet I could tell the difference, but I don't think I've ever played a game and had framerate be something that ever occurred to me (aside from drops).
0
Options
GnomeTankWhat the what?Portland, OregonRegistered Userregular
It's one of those things that's so obvious to me, the difference in smoothness and game responsiveness is so extreme, that its beyond me how others don't see it...but everyone is different and either some people really don't see it, or filter it much better than my eyes / brain do.
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
I think my brain is just really good at adjusting to whatever is required of it. It rarely affects my gameplay. 60fps absolutely feels smoother and more responsive! Absolutely. But I do just fine in hard games with 30fps. I must be compensating with something, I just don't know what.
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
Yeah, inconsistent framerate is a whole different kettle of fish from the 30/60 argument (Which assumes a consistent framerate). I've related this story before, but once I was replaying Quake 4 a decade after it came out, on super beefy rig that was hitting the v-sync frame cap with no problem, but then I hit a weird bug where I passed under an arch and the game immediately dropped to 30 and it felt like my stomach lurched. 30 wasn't bad, but the immediate drop from 60 to 30 felt horrible
Lower frame rate should lower your reaction time slightly by virtue of there being fewer frames per time for your brain to interpret important motion out of. But reaction time isn't everything in games, especially these days where it is expected to be so variable based on wireless controllers and what kind of crappy TV/home theatre you are using without game mode even turned on.
So, uh, I have a PS5 -> receiver -> tv setup and I'm getting an issue where I'm getting controller audio slightly before I get audio from my speakers. It's not like, that big a deal, but it's kind of annoying and sort of ruins the immersion for anything using haptics/soundeffects to match up with onscreen stuff. It was noticeable in Astrobot, but wasn't too bad there, but for Yakuza Kiwami 2, it's much more noticeable because every time Kiryu answers or hangs up a phone, there's a beep that syncs up between the controller and tv and it ends up sounding like two beeps because I get the controller beep first. Has anyone else run into this? I might try and mess around with receiver settings to see if there's anything I can do with that, but I didn't see anything in the PS5 settings.
Stabbity Style on
0
Options
surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
Yeah, I just don't buy that people can't tell the difference between 30/60/144 unless they've only ever seen 30 FPS and simply have never seen reliably smooth-running 60 or 144. Depending on the game, I don't necessarily mind framerate as low as 30 FPS, but I can 1000% percent tell the difference between those three FPS targets even if the number isn't on the screen. But I also play on PC, Switch, and PS4 on three different types of screen, so I have a load of comparisons right there in front of me.
I'm old. I just turned 54 a few months ago. You are majorly underestimating the effect of aging on vision.
I have extremely poor vision. My glasses prescription is 7+ diopters.
I have a ton of 'floaters' in my eyes. You know how things look in a game when there is a fire or underwater effect? I see that All. The. Time. in real life.
Again, I'm old. The time it takes me to actually "see" something on the screen is about 10 to 15ms. That is, if something is only visible for a frame or two, it is effectively "invisible" to me. It's not that my reaction times are too slow, it takes that long for my eyes to pick up the image, send it to my brain and have it recognized.
For me, and people like me, we literally cannot see high frame rates. You know the Spiderverse movie where they made such a big deal out of variable frame rates and whatnot? I own that movie on blueray and I've rewatched it maybe a half-dozen times. If you held a gun to my head and told me you were going to shoot me if I didn't press a button when the frame rate changed, I would be dead now.
ive got terrible vision (-10+ on my left eye, -7+ depending on astigmatism on right) and im 33 and the diff between 144 and 240 is painfully obvious to me (i get furious when dropping frames in ow etc)
i think the problem is that you are just enjoying each frame too much, you need to reduce the amount you enjoy those delicious frames, start letting them flow past u
+3
Options
MorninglordI'm tired of being Batman,so today I'll be Owl.Registered Userregular
Lower frame rate should lower your reaction time slightly by virtue of there being fewer frames per time for your brain to interpret important motion out of. But reaction time isn't everything in games, especially these days where it is expected to be so variable based on wireless controllers and what kind of crappy TV/home theatre you are using without game mode even turned on.
Keyframes in animation >>>> frames per second. Well crafted animations are more important than the games speed. You could have a 1000 fps animation that is just shitty and terrible to parse, you'll still get hit by it.
Experience, anticipation and prediction are also significantly more important than sheer reaction speed in that vast majority of games. Almost no games do true randomised mixups that require reactions that 30fps vs 60fps could impact in any significant way. The player can control what is going to happen.
The only games where raw reaction speed is important enough to care about frames per second is fighting games, and afaik they always target 60fps.
Morninglord on
(PSN: Morninglord) (Steam: Morninglord) (WiiU: Morninglord22) I like to record and toss up a lot of random gaming videos here.
+1
Options
BRIAN BLESSEDMaybe you aren't SPEAKING LOUDLY ENOUGHHHRegistered Userregular
Anything over 60FPS is revelatory and tangibly improves the ability at which I play a really wide variety of games, almost as revelatory as the jump from 30 to 60 (though anything over 120 imo gives me diminishing returns)
That said, I would legitimately take a 100% stable locked 30FPS over a 'targeted' 60FPS that dips into 40s or even 50s, because to me frame drops in that range are extremely jarring
Wait. Scrolling on this forum is weird now at 144. Maybe I can see it?
You probably can. Shit is at its most noticeable when the whole screen is moving very quickly. In PC games its usually most key when quickly spinning the camera around. Its way more noticeable there than in a zoomed out sidescroller like Ori.
+1
Options
HardtargetThere Are Four LightsVancouverRegistered Userregular
edited November 2020
an alternate take:
I have a 60hz 1080p monitor to my left
I have a 165hz 1440p monitor to my right
if i drag around a little window quickly on either monitor it basically looks the same. If I scroll the forums up and down on either monitor, it basically looks the same.
The reason I have this fancy pants monitor is not for high refresh refresh (I have a 1660ti, no games are hitting 165fps), it's for gsync, which makes an unbelievable improvement. I HATE TEARING SO MUCH and always play with vsync on. Now I can have vsync off, have gsync on, and no matter if I'm getting frames in the 40s or the 60s or anywhere in between everything looks suuuuuper smooth with no tearing.
and that my friends, is amazing.
This also means that, for me, on my PS5, if I can have a locked 30 and see raytracing, I'm gonna take that over a locked 60 with no new features. If I'm not having the new graphical features why did I even get a PS5?
(with that said, I have a 1080p TV, what I really want is a locked 60 + raytracing, fuck this 4k business)
Playing in performance mode in SM:MM just makes me feel like I'm watching a movie at my friend's house who always leaves the Motion Smoothing crap turned on. I'm fully aware that it's Stockholm Syndrome from mostly playing 30FPS games but it actually seems worse to my brain.
Switch Friend Code: SW-3944-9431-0318
PSN / Xbox / NNID: Fodder185
Playing in performance mode in SM:MM just makes me feel like I'm watching a movie at my friend's house who always leaves the Motion Smoothing crap turned on. I'm fully aware that it's Stockholm Syndrome from mostly playing 30FPS games but it actually seems worse to my brain.
More like Stockholm Syndrome from being forced to watch "soap opera effect." Burn that shit with fire.
Yeah, inconsistent framerate is a whole different kettle of fish from the 30/60 argument (Which assumes a consistent framerate). I've related this story before, but once I was replaying Quake 4 a decade after it came out, on super beefy rig that was hitting the v-sync frame cap with no problem, but then I hit a weird bug where I passed under an arch and the game immediately dropped to 30 and it felt like my stomach lurched. 30 wasn't bad, but the immediate drop from 60 to 30 felt horrible
Agreed. Whatever the game runs at, I’d like it to be consistent.
30fps feels fine to me for your average open-world graphical showcase with relatively unchallenging combat. The kind of game where you can conjure a horse by whistling.
60fps is a must for racing games or twitchy FPS gameplay, and can generally be made to still look great because of limited perspective and sight lines.
60fps is also preferable for a game where victory in challenging boss fights depends heavily on responding to telegraphed attacks. If anything, I’ve found that with age, subtle benefits to my reaction time are more noticeable, not less.
"Because things are the way they are, things will not stay the way they are." - Bertolt Brecht
Latest firmware update might have fixed the controller charging issue some people had.
"An issue that prevented the PS5 wireless controller from being charged while in rest mode when connected to the PS5's front side USB Type-A port using the USB cable included with some PS5 consoles was resolved."
Holy shit. It seems that a large number of people have been screwed over by Amazon employees and that instead of getting a PS5 that they ordered, they got things like cat food instead. Amazon is not taking any responsibility for it and blaming anyone other than themselves. I guess there IS something worse than not being able to order the console.
Holy shit. It seems that a large number of people have been screwed over by Amazon employees and that instead of getting a PS5 that they ordered, they got things like cat food instead. Amazon is not taking any responsibility for it and blaming anyone other than themselves. I guess there IS something worse than not being able to order the console.
Posts
Resident 8bitdo expert.
Resident hybrid/flap cover expert.
In Miles, fidelity mode and ray tracing seriously, genuinely make the world feel bigger and more real as you fly towards a skyscraper with the entire, accurate world behind you reflected in its windows.
It's really profound and I didn't think it would make such a difference.
I don't think it looks as nice as the Series X vid? Not sure...
They never noticed or cared before because nothing they played ran above 30.
3DS Friend Code: 2165-6448-8348 www.Twitch.TV/cooljammer00
Battle.Net: JohnDarc#1203 Origin/UPlay: CoolJammer00
You do have to enable it in Windows, it defaults to 60 a lot of the time.
When I use a 144hz monitor I can tell because the mouse itself looks smoother as it moves around. It's very cool!
If you can see a picture, its working.
If the screen is black, it's broke.
Or off, or unplugged.
That will be 20 bitcoins, please.
Yea dragging windows on my 144hz monitor it's absolutely easy to see the difference.
No, I did that. Everything says it should be working. Still can't tell.
- I'm old. I just turned 54 a few months ago. You are majorly underestimating the effect of aging on vision.
- I have extremely poor vision. My glasses prescription is 7+ diopters.
- I have a ton of 'floaters' in my eyes. You know how things look in a game when there is a fire or underwater effect? I see that All. The. Time. in real life.
- Again, I'm old. The time it takes me to actually "see" something on the screen is about 10 to 15ms. That is, if something is only visible for a frame or two, it is effectively "invisible" to me. It's not that my reaction times are too slow, it takes that long for my eyes to pick up the image, send it to my brain and have it recognized.
For me, and people like me, we literally cannot see high frame rates. You know the Spiderverse movie where they made such a big deal out of variable frame rates and whatnot? I own that movie on blueray and I've rewatched it maybe a half-dozen times. If you held a gun to my head and told me you were going to shoot me if I didn't press a button when the frame rate changed, I would be dead now.That said, having seen them both, I could not tell the difference between 60fps and 120fps in Ori and the Will of the Wisps, despite being able to near instantly flip between them. I wound up playing it in 6k supersampled instead, which I just barely noticed a differenced with.
It's that I adjust so quickly that if I am forced onto 30fps, I don't overly care. It takes about 2 minutes and I'm completely fine with it. If it starts at 30fps, I already don't care.
I just wanted to point out that this is not due to age and is normal. See this paper. Also a frame at 60fps is 16.67 ms so you should be able to notice a 1 frame thing if you only take 10-15ms to see something.
https://news.mit.edu/2014/in-the-blink-of-an-eye-0116
I'm not disputing anything you say about not being able to notice framerate changes. I believe you. I'm just giving you some information about normal numbers. I suspect its your other vision problems, not necessarily your age, that is causing your issues in this case.
I can always tell the difference though. It's jarring and obvious to me, especially if I go from 60 to 30 very quickly. 30 will feel like swimming in molasses. I agree with what others are saying about smoothness of the frame rate as well. I can handle 30, but jumpy or unsmooth 30 will drive me nuts. I think Bloodborne is one of the best games ever made, but it's inconsistent frame pacing and barely locked 30 on PS4 Pro/PS5 (it couldn't hold 30 on the OG PS4) are jarring and a big reason I haven't done another playthrough in a while.
ive got terrible vision (-10+ on my left eye, -7+ depending on astigmatism on right) and im 33 and the diff between 144 and 240 is painfully obvious to me (i get furious when dropping frames in ow etc)
i think the problem is that you are just enjoying each frame too much, you need to reduce the amount you enjoy those delicious frames, start letting them flow past u
Keyframes in animation >>>> frames per second. Well crafted animations are more important than the games speed. You could have a 1000 fps animation that is just shitty and terrible to parse, you'll still get hit by it.
Experience, anticipation and prediction are also significantly more important than sheer reaction speed in that vast majority of games. Almost no games do true randomised mixups that require reactions that 30fps vs 60fps could impact in any significant way. The player can control what is going to happen.
The only games where raw reaction speed is important enough to care about frames per second is fighting games, and afaik they always target 60fps.
That said, I would legitimately take a 100% stable locked 30FPS over a 'targeted' 60FPS that dips into 40s or even 50s, because to me frame drops in that range are extremely jarring
You probably can. Shit is at its most noticeable when the whole screen is moving very quickly. In PC games its usually most key when quickly spinning the camera around. Its way more noticeable there than in a zoomed out sidescroller like Ori.
I have a 60hz 1080p monitor to my left
I have a 165hz 1440p monitor to my right
if i drag around a little window quickly on either monitor it basically looks the same. If I scroll the forums up and down on either monitor, it basically looks the same.
The reason I have this fancy pants monitor is not for high refresh refresh (I have a 1660ti, no games are hitting 165fps), it's for gsync, which makes an unbelievable improvement. I HATE TEARING SO MUCH and always play with vsync on. Now I can have vsync off, have gsync on, and no matter if I'm getting frames in the 40s or the 60s or anywhere in between everything looks suuuuuper smooth with no tearing.
and that my friends, is amazing.
This also means that, for me, on my PS5, if I can have a locked 30 and see raytracing, I'm gonna take that over a locked 60 with no new features. If I'm not having the new graphical features why did I even get a PS5?
(with that said, I have a 1080p TV, what I really want is a locked 60 + raytracing, fuck this 4k business)
PSN / Xbox / NNID: Fodder185
More like Stockholm Syndrome from being forced to watch "soap opera effect." Burn that shit with fire.
Agreed. Whatever the game runs at, I’d like it to be consistent.
30fps feels fine to me for your average open-world graphical showcase with relatively unchallenging combat. The kind of game where you can conjure a horse by whistling.
60fps is a must for racing games or twitchy FPS gameplay, and can generally be made to still look great because of limited perspective and sight lines.
60fps is also preferable for a game where victory in challenging boss fights depends heavily on responding to telegraphed attacks. If anything, I’ve found that with age, subtle benefits to my reaction time are more noticeable, not less.
"An issue that prevented the PS5 wireless controller from being charged while in rest mode when connected to the PS5's front side USB Type-A port using the USB cable included with some PS5 consoles was resolved."
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2020-11-25-days-after-amazon-promised-playstation-5-customers-it-will-put-it-right-heres-where-we-are-now
Frickin warehouse thiefs.