surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited January 2021
ye ramkin is one of the few characters in all of fiction that is a sympathetically portrayed middle aged fat woman who is taken seriously on her own terms and is also a romantic actor
and they replace her with an incredibly attractive young woman
its one of those cases where they confused "this casting will piss people off because of racism" with "this is a case where an attempt at one kind of subversion utterly undercuts the ways in which a character is actually unusual in a different way"
ramkin is, in her own way, a counterpart to vimes; she is a "loser" (social outcast, obsessive interests, not regarded as physically attractive etc) but she has the benefits of confidence etc from her underlying privilege (and to anybody who knows v rich obsessive horse women there is an accuracy to a lot of her that is lost here too - a part of pratchetts essentially british social satire). to make her simply "a cool dual wielding dragon lady" is to destroy one of the essential qualities that draws her and vimes together...
"And she had style and money and common-sense and self-assurance and all the things that he didn’t, and she had opened her heart, and if you let her she could engulf you; the woman was a city."
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surrealitychecklonely, but not unloveddreaming of faulty keys and latchesRegistered Userregular
edited January 2021
elsewhere some of the casting is perfectly good. makeup and direction aside, the actor playing vimes could do vimes, regional accent is an interesting choice vs what u would assume eg generic cockney but could work. making vetinari a woman - the oddness of her being the "patrician" aside - is fine as executed here, suitably imperious etc. carrot and angua both look the part. but the writing and execution more broadly would need to be in place to support the decisions and it simply isnt the case here...
surrealitycheck on
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FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
elsewhere some of the casting is perfectly good. makeup and direction aside, the actor playing vimes could do vimes, regional accent is an interesting choice vs what u would assume eg generic cockney but could work. making vetinari a woman - the oddness of her being the "patrician" aside - is fine as executed here, suitably imperious etc. carrot and angua both look the part. but the writing and execution more broadly would need to be in place to support the decisions and it simply isnt the case here...
I could absolutely see Pratchett writing Vetinari as a woman and calling herself the patrician.
Would you want to disagree with Vetinari about that?
I've read the synopsis including character deaths for the first two episodes and all I can say is what the fuck have they done!!
Care to specify/link? Spoiler tags are probably appropriate. But I can't see myself giving this a chance at actually watching it.
Sure - major character death details inside:
Detritus gets shot to death by people with crossbows
2021 was supposed to be better!
It's worse!
2021 IS WOOORRRRSSSEEEE!!!
It's only the second episode though.
There's a chance it was a ruse.
Please let it have been a ruse.
I mean, they've made the investment, seems silly to have done that much if they weren't going to use it.
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Munkus BeaverYou don't have to attend every argument you are invited to.Philosophy: Stoicism. Politics: Democratic SocialistRegistered User, ClubPAregular
That's what they're called... The haha-funny thing about them is they complain about their working conditions and constantly talk about unionising.
Ah yes, I remember that from Snuff, how they're all revolutionary as opposed to pathetic downtrodden creatures whose typical greeting translates to "Survive!"
Fuck's sake, at least use gnolls or something - they're vicious in Equal Rites, even if they turn to scavenging once they hit Ankh-Morpork (probably because it's easier what with all the garbage available)
Yeah, holy shit is using goblins a bad look since their entire existence in the lore is being considered subhuman by the other races until the events of SNuff
Humor can be dissected as a frog can, but dies in the process.
(Although I'm almost certain that Stoolie turned up in Jingo solely to make a grassy gnoll joke, requiring since retconning of the portrayal from Equal Rites)
Jesus, I just got that. British slang and all that.
I thought he was talking about jfk there but mentioning british slang confused me.
He's Stoolie because he's an informant to the police, meaning that he's grassy.
But he's also a JFK joke as it's part of the "lone bowman" part of investigating who shot the prince (turns out the shot came from the UU Library, in which books are deposited)
Never assume that Pratchett was making a joke about just one thing.
I've suddenly gotten references in Moving Pictures and Soul Music decades later as I watch or read something else about music or movies history.
Yeah, holy shit is using goblins a bad look since their entire existence in the lore is being considered subhuman by the other races until the events of Snuff
But goblins are the generic bad guys, everyone knows this! Haven't you seen Lord of the Rings?
I've read the synopsis including character deaths for the first two episodes and all I can say is what the fuck have they done!!
Care to specify/link? Spoiler tags are probably appropriate. But I can't see myself giving this a chance at actually watching it.
Sure - major character death details inside:
Detritus gets shot to death by people with crossbows
2021 was supposed to be better!
It's worse!
2021 IS WOOORRRRSSSEEEE!!!
It's only the second episode though.
There's a chance it was a ruse.
Please let it have been a ruse.
I mean, they've made the investment, seems silly to have done that much if they weren't going to use it.
Um... based on some light research on the
Detritus
situation
on the IMDB, his actor is only credited with three episodes. That doesn't seem to bode well.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
Wait... the patrician is well done in the show?
Now I want to watch, just to see her X )
I'd imagine anyone disagreeing with her would not get to do so for long...
In the show. Vetinari is played by a woman (Anna Chancelor) but addressed as 'sir'. Saying it is well done could be a stretch because whoever it is supposed to be doesn't come off as the nearly omniscient, always has a plan, nicer than you'd think, still eminently dangerous Patrician. The impression given was 'generically powerful ruler'. Given the many genderswapped characters, it's just confusing.
Wait... the patrician is well done in the show?
Now I want to watch, just to see her X )
I'd imagine anyone disagreeing with her would not get to do so for long...
In the show. Vetinari is played by a woman (Anna Chancelor) but addressed as 'sir'. Saying it is well done could be a stretch because whoever it is supposed to be doesn't come off as the nearly omniscient, always has a plan, nicer than you'd think, still eminently dangerous Patrician. The impression given was 'generically powerful ruler'. Given the many genderswapped characters, it's just confusing.
Aren't there posters ("Vote for Vetinari" or something) with artwork that looks like Jack Kidby's Vetinari, and characters referring to her with male pronouns in the show.
Is her actual identity meant to be a secret?
"Vote for Vetinari"? The political system of Ankh-Morpork is described as "One Man, One Vote", in which Vetinari is the 'Man', and he has the 'Vote'.
So I don't see think he is in need of posters as a reminder for who to vote for.
It's one thing, if silly, to gender swap characters because apparently that's important now. Dr. Cruces and CMOT Dibbler are now women in this show. They hired a regular-sized man to play a dwarf female. And at the same time hired two little people to play Carrot's parents.
Hiring a woman to play a male character, who looks like a woman, who sounds like a woman, who dresses like a woman, and is called 'sir' is just confusing in light of every other change they've made to the world.
Multiple characters are nothing like their personalities or descriptions in the books. They have killed a character using a method that makes no sense.
Making radical changes to an established IP and offering no clear explanations for the new rules is a significant problem.
knitdanIn ur baseKillin ur guysRegistered Userregular
I’m not happy with most of the characterization changes I’m told the show makes.
I’m not happy with the quality of the writing that has been described to me.
I’m not happy with the mashing together of multiple books despite each book having more than enough content to fill out a full season.
But of all the changes made, Vetinari’s gender matters least.
“I was quick when I came in here, I’m twice as quick now”
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
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Golden YakBurnished BovineThe sunny beaches of CanadaRegistered Userregular
I guess, if the issue is we're not sure Vetinari is referred to as male because she's concealing her identity to the public at large, or is meant to trans-male, and the show isn't clear about which one (if any) the situation is, it could get frustrating. Is it an unclear effort at gender presentation, or something else?
Hey, have there been any shots of the Disc itself, the turtle and elephants and everything? I haven't even seen the opening credits, if there are any.
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ShadowenSnores in the morningLoserdomRegistered Userregular
This is to say nothing of how...iffy British entertainment is on the issue of gender. Especially these days.
This is to say nothing of how...iffy British entertainment is on the issue of gender. Especially these days.
As someone who's had this sort of pass them by - could you expand on this, or link some articles? Not arguing, just genuinely interested in educating myself on the topic.
This is to say nothing of how...iffy British entertainment is on the issue of gender. Especially these days.
As someone who's had this sort of pass them by - could you expand on this, or link some articles? Not arguing, just genuinely interested in educating myself on the topic.
TERF ideas are surprisingly pervasive over here, even in otherwise progressive folks.
"Vote for Vetinari"? The political system of Ankh-Morpork is described as "One Man, One Vote", in which Vetinari is the 'Man', and he has the 'Vote'.
So I don't see think he is in need of posters as a reminder for who to vote for.
Okay, that tracks.
The gender-flipped characters are fine, and I've watched too much Star Trek to be fazed by calling women "sir", but the face on this poster still confuses me.
It's sad that we've apparently gone backwards, as I remember Coronation Street like twenty years ago when I'd have been forced to watch it because that's what was on when we had dinner, and there was a trans woman on there who was generally treated respectfully, as far as I can remember. Specifically, the ones who had a problem with her were clearly portrayed as being assholes that nobody liked.
I think part of the problem here is that they're trying to put one of the puns from the books in there, but it's not one anyone tells, it's one the narration makes (which is something Pratchett did a lot, and doesn't cross well to non-book media). Good Omens dealt with this by just having a narrator, but God is an important character in that book even without actually appearing, so it mostly worked. Here they've just put a poster up to reference it, and it sounds like they're not actually giving the punchline.
No real part of Vetinari's character relies on gender, but this specific pun does.
Why is Vetinari wearing a ruff in that poster? Does the character wear one?
Based on what I've seen of the costumes so far I'd have assumed biker leathers and a top hat with goggles on
[Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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Mr_Rose83 Blue Ridge Protects the HolyRegistered Userregular
What’s extra annoying is that they have a setup for introducing the world; Carrot’s arrival in A-M. It was right there you guys. Just separate that bit out form the plot of the book and call it the first episode.
Not in reference to The Notch in particular, but I think a good adaptation of a Discworld story should involve a rarely seen narrator in black with a wide brimmed hat who cuts in now and again to cover the extra bits.*
He's an Assassin, so he knows style, but you're right, it's not in character to be ostentatious; I think "slightly shabby" might have even been used to describe him in the past, plus the Medici-esque skull cap mentioned in Making Money
[Muffled sounds of gorilla violence]
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David_TA fashion yes-man is no good to me.Copenhagen, DenmarkRegistered Userregular
I could see him wearing one the same way a business man wears a tie. Like, if it was part of the cultural uniform for guild leaders to wear a ruff, then he'd wear a small, thin, quite possibly black one.
But Ankh Morpork has never struck me as a place that would encourage people wearings ruffs. Or indeed anything around their neck that could be grabbed in a fight.
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daveNYCWhy universe hate Waspinator?Registered Userregular
He's an Assassin, so he knows style, but you're right, it's not in character to be ostentatious; I think "slightly shabby" might have even been used to describe him in the past, plus the Medici-esque skull cap mentioned in Making Money
Vetinari is one of the few assassins who actually grasps the importance and functioning of camouflage. Wearing a ruff or looking a tad shabby would both be in character for him, depending on the environment.
I'm not sure that assassins grasp style so much as they tend to be physically fit, think black looks cool, and have enough money for well made clothes. Difficult to look bad if you're packing that trifecta.
Shut up, Mr. Burton! You were not brought upon this world to get it!
I would imagine a ceremonial uniform in his own style. But, as others have pointed out, it's never been his description.
The show's A-M is some kind of steampunk/Victorian aesthetic but i always imagined it as a more stylised medieval universe. Descriptions in Monstrous Regiment might put it as a late eighteenth/early nineteenth century universe with a large amount of technology (gonnes) absent.
They really did miss the boat by not having Carrot as the audience surrogate as a way to introduce this A-M to the audience. It seems that that is the trend now with IP reboots. You already know this stuff, so why bother to explain anything?
The Guild runs classes in personal grooming and dance, and in Pyramids the senior Assassins are wearing the style of the time (narrow waist, broad shoulders, wide-brimmed hats), so there's definitely an emphasis on style so that their clients know that they're not being inhumed by some common thug
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and they replace her with an incredibly attractive young woman
its one of those cases where they confused "this casting will piss people off because of racism" with "this is a case where an attempt at one kind of subversion utterly undercuts the ways in which a character is actually unusual in a different way"
ramkin is, in her own way, a counterpart to vimes; she is a "loser" (social outcast, obsessive interests, not regarded as physically attractive etc) but she has the benefits of confidence etc from her underlying privilege (and to anybody who knows v rich obsessive horse women there is an accuracy to a lot of her that is lost here too - a part of pratchetts essentially british social satire). to make her simply "a cool dual wielding dragon lady" is to destroy one of the essential qualities that draws her and vimes together...
I could absolutely see Pratchett writing Vetinari as a woman and calling herself the patrician.
Would you want to disagree with Vetinari about that?
Now I want to watch, just to see her X )
I'd imagine anyone disagreeing with her would not get to do so for long...
2021 was supposed to be better!
It's worse!
2021 IS WOOORRRRSSSEEEE!!!
It's only the second episode though.
There's a chance it was a ruse.
Please let it have been a ruse.
I mean, they've made the investment, seems silly to have done that much if they weren't going to use it.
Yeah, holy shit is using goblins a bad look since their entire existence in the lore is being considered subhuman by the other races until the events of SNuff
But he's also a JFK joke as it's part of the "lone bowman" part of investigating who shot the prince (turns out the shot came from the UU Library, in which books are deposited)
Layers, like an onion
I've suddenly gotten references in Moving Pictures and Soul Music decades later as I watch or read something else about music or movies history.
But goblins are the generic bad guys, everyone knows this! Haven't you seen Lord of the Rings?
Um... based on some light research on the
In the show. Vetinari is played by a woman (Anna Chancelor) but addressed as 'sir'. Saying it is well done could be a stretch because whoever it is supposed to be doesn't come off as the nearly omniscient, always has a plan, nicer than you'd think, still eminently dangerous Patrician. The impression given was 'generically powerful ruler'. Given the many genderswapped characters, it's just confusing.
Aren't there posters ("Vote for Vetinari" or something) with artwork that looks like Jack Kidby's Vetinari, and characters referring to her with male pronouns in the show.
Is her actual identity meant to be a secret?
So I don't see think he is in need of posters as a reminder for who to vote for.
This is a fucking problem.
If so, why?
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
It's one thing, if silly, to gender swap characters because apparently that's important now. Dr. Cruces and CMOT Dibbler are now women in this show. They hired a regular-sized man to play a dwarf female. And at the same time hired two little people to play Carrot's parents.
Hiring a woman to play a male character, who looks like a woman, who sounds like a woman, who dresses like a woman, and is called 'sir' is just confusing in light of every other change they've made to the world.
Multiple characters are nothing like their personalities or descriptions in the books. They have killed a character using a method that makes no sense.
Making radical changes to an established IP and offering no clear explanations for the new rules is a significant problem.
I’m not happy with the quality of the writing that has been described to me.
I’m not happy with the mashing together of multiple books despite each book having more than enough content to fill out a full season.
But of all the changes made, Vetinari’s gender matters least.
-Indiana Solo, runner of blades
Hey, have there been any shots of the Disc itself, the turtle and elephants and everything? I haven't even seen the opening credits, if there are any.
As someone who's had this sort of pass them by - could you expand on this, or link some articles? Not arguing, just genuinely interested in educating myself on the topic.
Steam: https://steamcommunity.com/id/TheZombiePenguin
Stream: https://www.twitch.tv/thezombiepenguin/
Switch: 0293 6817 9891
TERF ideas are surprisingly pervasive over here, even in otherwise progressive folks.
Trans men might as well not exist because they don't fit the prejudices
Okay, that tracks.
The gender-flipped characters are fine, and I've watched too much Star Trek to be fazed by calling women "sir", but the face on this poster still confuses me.
I think part of the problem here is that they're trying to put one of the puns from the books in there, but it's not one anyone tells, it's one the narration makes (which is something Pratchett did a lot, and doesn't cross well to non-book media). Good Omens dealt with this by just having a narrator, but God is an important character in that book even without actually appearing, so it mostly worked. Here they've just put a poster up to reference it, and it sounds like they're not actually giving the punchline.
No real part of Vetinari's character relies on gender, but this specific pun does.
Based on what I've seen of the costumes so far I'd have assumed biker leathers and a top hat with goggles on
Nintendo Network ID: AzraelRose
DropBox invite link - get 500MB extra free.
The Watch isn't a TV show, it's the equivalent to The Lincoln Project except it's targeting Discworld fans.
*You know, these bits.
I didn't say it was most important.
In my head Vetanari looks and dresses a bit like Anton Ego from Ratatouille hed never wear a ruff.
To noticeable
But Ankh Morpork has never struck me as a place that would encourage people wearings ruffs. Or indeed anything around their neck that could be grabbed in a fight.
Vetinari is one of the few assassins who actually grasps the importance and functioning of camouflage. Wearing a ruff or looking a tad shabby would both be in character for him, depending on the environment.
I'm not sure that assassins grasp style so much as they tend to be physically fit, think black looks cool, and have enough money for well made clothes. Difficult to look bad if you're packing that trifecta.
The show's A-M is some kind of steampunk/Victorian aesthetic but i always imagined it as a more stylised medieval universe. Descriptions in Monstrous Regiment might put it as a late eighteenth/early nineteenth century universe with a large amount of technology (gonnes) absent.
They really did miss the boat by not having Carrot as the audience surrogate as a way to introduce this A-M to the audience. It seems that that is the trend now with IP reboots. You already know this stuff, so why bother to explain anything?