god why do we have so much video of this why are they so critically stupid they were breaking the WINDOWS of the CAPITOL BUILDING
above all else that is one of the things that bothers me the most. like...sometimes i just have to sit down and go what the actual fuck, they documented everything
I'd say that people who've never experienced real consequences before and are convinced they're always in the right don't see that maybe they're doing something wrong.
Then again, I'd expect better from someone described as an ex-Marine.
However, I can't really get upset about fascists being this self-destructively stupid. Rather this than competent ones.
Maybe it's just the Marines I've personally interacted with, but seeing ex-Marines in the mix is the far-and-away least surprising thing about the whole event
Yeah I know 3 Ex-Marines. They are all brothers, and all extremely violent people who are super racist and also cops!
As Vox's Jane Coaston wrote in March, followers of QAnon believe that there is an imminent event known as "'The Storm,' during which all of Trump's enemies, including Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) and others, would be arrested and executed for being murderous child-eating pedophiles." In November 2017, Coaston pointed out that QAnon had predicted that John Podesta, the chair of Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign, would be arrested and that the military would take control, followed by riots being orchestrated to prevent more senior officials from also being arrested.
0
TonkkaSome one in the club tonightHas stolen my ideas.Registered Userregular
With all this footage AFV is gonna be wild this week.
I'm going to try to be super clear without being a jerk because it's Friday and I get combative on Fridays.
I'm not defending the police as an institution, or saying that any individual cops are blameless and should be left alone just because there are a few bad apples, or that the cops I regularly interact with are fine.
I'm also not breezing past peoples' individual bad experiences with cops, they're horrible. They shouldn't happen. The police shouldn't do a variety of the things they do, including traffic stops and responding to mental health crises and being peoples' parents. Tons of bad people join the police force and tons of ok people join the police force and do bad things and they should all be held accountable, all of the time, and most should lose their ability to be police officers.
What I'm trying to say, and it's really difficult to articulate a full and complete thought in this format, is that I don't like extremely hostile blanket statements about the police because I don't trust that the people making them have any idea what they're talking about. SOMETIMES THEY DO AND THEIR POINTS ARE VALID, SEE HOW THAT'S IN ALL CAPS. But sometimes they're well meaning people who are unintentionally full of idealistic shit and I don't enjoy talking to them. Again, obviously personal experience informs everyone's opinions about everything, which is why I'm all bent out of shape.
And to be clear, I don't regularly fear for my safety, this isn't a fear motivated "oh the cops save me all the time so I love them" kinda deal, I'm fine. My job makes me responsible for a multi-story building that's routinely (although not lately) full of hundreds of people of a variety of ages and backgrounds and I need to make sure that all of those people stay safe and can do the stuff they came to the library to do. Sometimes you need some kind of public safety presence, somehow, especially when people are armed, and the police are what there is so I call them. I take it extremely seriously, I don't do it casually, and it's a difficult thing to understand if you've never done it, which again is why I'm all bent out of shape.
0
Raijin QuickfootI'm your Huckleberry YOU'RE NO DAISYRegistered User, ClubPAregular
I feel like at this point it should just be said that perspectives are different and there is nothing to be gained from continuing this discussion so maybe it’s time to move on.
Why do you assume that people have not personally experienced police brutality?
Why do you need to have personally suffered at their hands before you write them off? Why can’t someone just read about others’ experiences and come to the decision that ACAB?
Want to preface this with I do think that Peen is coming at this from good faith, and that it is important to recognize and respect that.
But I would also argue that if ACAB rhetoric makes you uncomfortable then that's kind of the point? Like, the specific reason "all cops are bastards" is used as a rhetorical device is to point out the complicity in participating in an inherently broken system. And so even if you aren't directly part of the system, when you have a job that forces you to interact with and use this system, then yeah that is going to fucking suck!
I have had jobs where I've needed to work closely with the police before. It sucks shit, and there is a definite danger in developing a kind of blind spot when you are forced to hang out in the periphery of that world. You do what you can, but I would encourage you to recognize that both 1) you can be doing the best job you possibly can with the shitty tools you have, and 2) people can still rightly issue blanket condemnations of the system that you are sometimes forced to use.
Why do you assume that people have not personally experienced police brutality?
Why do you need to have personally suffered at their hands before you write them off? Why can’t someone just read about others’ experiences and come to the decision that ACAB?
This isn't how persuading people on political stances works, as you well know, and I don't think it'll be productive here.
I also think that ultimately the complex truth here is that the police in the US can, and at times do, have positive impacts on a micro-scale. The point of the large movement against the police is that on a macro-scale they do not and since policy is made on a macro-scale that is what we need to look at. Let's look at the NYPD; it's very clear that even though one might have a positive interaction with a NYPD officer, when you look at the NYPD's impact on the city at large, for the cost, they are highly inefficient and when they went on strike it's estimated that crime went down. So clearly there is a problem there! And clearly when you look at the fact that a lot of their micro-scale interactions they result in violence, death, abuse, assault etc and that institutionally they cover these things up.
So yes it is true that one can be at a public library and call the police and they can turn up and effectively defuse the situation; institutionally if they did not, and someone got shot, they'd probably cover it up. And that is a problem. A big problem. And once you look at things on a wider scale you realise; it happens a lot. So when we say "why can't you see this" we are saying, look @Peen we recognise that your experience doesn't track with the wider problem's trend, but that doesn't invalidate the wider problem, and in fact you should probably consider that actually you were perhaps closer to being involved in the wider problem than you thought.
I'm actually leaving this time, honest, I promise. I just don't anticipate leaving this place in general and I don't want anyone to have a negative impression of me moving forward, except for the right reasons because not everybody likes everybody and that's fine. Generally I think all of you are swell and I don't want someone to see me post in another thread and be like "ugh, there's that cop loving guy." If you want to say "Ugh, there's that pretentious arrogant prick who thinks he's right all of the time" that's fine and correct.
And Tef I've had people come into the aftermath of a violent incident and try to lecture me about how we shouldn't be calling the police when people of color are involved, having no idea what happened or why the police were there, and it's given me a low tolerance. Of course I think we should base opinions on the evidence that we're provided but I think people get sucked into taking passionate stances that are essentially borrowed from other people and that causes more problems than it solves. If someone's doing activism based on experience I don't have, like "the police are bad and need to be reformed," I'm going to support them as best I can but let them do the talking, I'm not going to adopt their talking points as my own just because I believe what they're saying is true because that's inauthentic. I've strayed off topic but it's all balled together in a sticky complicated way.
I'm actually leaving this time, honest, I promise. I just don't anticipate leaving this place in general and I don't want anyone to have a negative impression of me moving forward, except for the right reasons because not everybody likes everybody and that's fine. Generally I think all of you are swell and I don't want someone to see me post in another thread and be like "ugh, there's that cop loving guy." If you want to say "Ugh, there's that pretentious arrogant prick who thinks he's right all of the time" that's fine and correct.
And Tef I've had people come into the aftermath of a violent incident and try to lecture me about how we shouldn't be calling the police when people of color are involved, having no idea what happened or why the police were there, and it's given me a low tolerance. Of course I think we should base opinions on the evidence that we're provided but I think people get sucked into taking passionate stances that are essentially borrowed from other people and that causes more problems than it solves. If someone's doing activism based on experience I don't have, like "the police are bad and need to be reformed," I'm going to support them as best I can but let them do the talking, I'm not going to adopt their talking points as my own just because I believe what they're saying is true because that's inauthentic. I've strayed off topic but it's all balled together in a sticky complicated way.
Not trying to change your mind, but I will say I fundamentally disagree with the bolded. If people can't passionately empathize with and advocate for experiences they haven't personally had, we will never advance the rights of any marginalized community. If I don't believe and amplify the opinions and experiences of black folks, of women, of trans folks, of queer folks, I feel like I'd be telling my friends and loved ones, "Get your own rights, solve your own problems, not my business."
I'm sorry for being an anger goblin, "Rorshach Kringle".
@weaver, you attacked me personally (i saw what you wrote before you edited it to a dot). you don't get to center this on yourself and do a half-step above "i'm sorry you were offended."
i ain't posting any more publicly about it, but this ain't it.
My stupid dumb brain just keeps going back to final fantasy VII remake and Barrett saying “A good man who serves a great evil is not without sin” over and over
+1
Garlic Breadi'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm a bitch i'm aRegistered User, Disagreeableregular
isn't "taking other peoples' lived experience and applying that knowledge to your life" just called learning?
i genuinely don't follow "i will support their words but won't share them myself because that's inauthentic"; what's the point of someone listening if they're against applying it?
if i'm reading things that aren't there, i apologize. i just genuinely don't understand
I'm actually leaving this time, honest, I promise. I just don't anticipate leaving this place in general and I don't want anyone to have a negative impression of me moving forward, except for the right reasons because not everybody likes everybody and that's fine. Generally I think all of you are swell and I don't want someone to see me post in another thread and be like "ugh, there's that cop loving guy." If you want to say "Ugh, there's that pretentious arrogant prick who thinks he's right all of the time" that's fine and correct.
And Tef I've had people come into the aftermath of a violent incident and try to lecture me about how we shouldn't be calling the police when people of color are involved, having no idea what happened or why the police were there, and it's given me a low tolerance. Of course I think we should base opinions on the evidence that we're provided but I think people get sucked into taking passionate stances that are essentially borrowed from other people and that causes more problems than it solves. If someone's doing activism based on experience I don't have, like "the police are bad and need to be reformed," I'm going to support them as best I can but let them do the talking, I'm not going to adopt their talking points as my own just because I believe what they're saying is true because that's inauthentic. I've strayed off topic but it's all balled together in a sticky complicated way.
Not trying to change your mind, but I will say I fundamentally disagree with the bolded. If people can't passionately empathize with and advocate for experiences they haven't personally had, we will never advance the rights of any marginalized community. If I don't believe and amplify the opinions and experiences of black folks, of women, of trans folks, of queer folks, I feel like I'd be telling my friends and loved ones, "Get your own rights, solve your own problems, not my business."
I'm not actually leaving quite yet because ain't shit else going on at work, if I get too hot I'll go though. Writing is hard. I'm not talking about empathy with and advocating for marginalized communities, I'm talking about talking for them and in some cases over them. I'm talking about amplifying voices and giving platforms instead of me pushing myself to the forefront of a given discussion. As an example, I think that everyone should have access to adaptive measures at the library so that they can access our resources, whether that's physical accommodations like screen readers or having material in non-English languages or other stuff. But when the time comes to make decisions about what exactly we should have, I'm going to go to those communities to find out what they need, not do some research on my own and then make the decision myself based on what I know, because I can't know enough to replace someone's lived experience.
Similarly, I don't mind ACAB stuff as a critique of the institution. That rhetoric doesn't make me uncomfortable at all. It's when someone listens to an interview with an officer and then says "if it was a crowd of black people he'd have just started blasting" that I have a problem with it because that's not fair at all to that dude. Maybe he sucks! He's sure got bad taste in neck tattoos. But maybe he doesn't suck, it's going after individuals that I don't like.
I'm going to try to be super clear without being a jerk because it's Friday and I get combative on Fridays.
I'm not defending the police as an institution, or saying that any individual cops are blameless and should be left alone just because there are a few bad apples, or that the cops I regularly interact with are fine.
I'm also not breezing past peoples' individual bad experiences with cops, they're horrible. They shouldn't happen. The police shouldn't do a variety of the things they do, including traffic stops and responding to mental health crises and being peoples' parents. Tons of bad people join the police force and tons of ok people join the police force and do bad things and they should all be held accountable, all of the time, and most should lose their ability to be police officers.
What I'm trying to say, and it's really difficult to articulate a full and complete thought in this format, is that I don't like extremely hostile blanket statements about the police because I don't trust that the people making them have any idea what they're talking about. SOMETIMES THEY DO AND THEIR POINTS ARE VALID, SEE HOW THAT'S IN ALL CAPS. But sometimes they're well meaning people who are unintentionally full of idealistic shit and I don't enjoy talking to them. Again, obviously personal experience informs everyone's opinions about everything, which is why I'm all bent out of shape.
And to be clear, I don't regularly fear for my safety, this isn't a fear motivated "oh the cops save me all the time so I love them" kinda deal, I'm fine. My job makes me responsible for a multi-story building that's routinely (although not lately) full of hundreds of people of a variety of ages and backgrounds and I need to make sure that all of those people stay safe and can do the stuff they came to the library to do. Sometimes you need some kind of public safety presence, somehow, especially when people are armed, and the police are what there is so I call them. I take it extremely seriously, I don't do it casually, and it's a difficult thing to understand if you've never done it, which again is why I'm all bent out of shape.
i think part of the disconnect here is that cops being helpful in certain situations is not actually a case against All Cops Being Bastards
cops can help certain situations. They can make things safer sometimes, and there are cops who honestly try to do a good job. Not every single one of them is personally a wife-beating racist, and like, if there's a guy threatening people with a knife at the walmart or whatever even a wife-beating racist can remove him from the area.
none of that changes the fact that the police as an institution are racist, violent, and corrupt, and that the actions of individual police, including the actions of "good cops," perpetuates that racism, violence, and corruption. People don't say that All Cops Are Bastards because they personally believe that literally anytime you dial 9-1-1 the cops will show up, spit in your eye, and shoot your dog. All Cops Are Bastards because the police are an inherently bastardly institution, and merely being a member of them gives them power that they shouldn't have.
Like, even if every single cop did their job properly and never used excessive force or abused their authority, all cops would still be bastards.
One of my friends whos probably what I would call a Libertarian, was talking about how "Biden wants to get rid of the NRA and take our guns!" and I informed him the NRA are getting rid of themselves pretty well.
Is it like real we have no money bankruptcy or like fake judo throw bankruptcy where you end up with more money somehow
I'm not quite sure specifically because it's a breaking story but they have said this:
The NRA says it'll restructure and continue as a Texas nonprofit. "To facilitate its strategic plan and restructuring, the NRA and one of its subsidiaries filed voluntary chapter 11 petitions in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Northern District of Texas," the NRA said.
the NRA hasn't even generally minded gun control legislature. they helped write the NFA, they were cool with the brady bill and the '94 assault weapon ban and trump's bump stock thing
just a garbage organization that smoke-and-mirrors'd themselves into a widespread belief among gun people that they actually care about gun people
Is it like real we have no money bankruptcy or like fake judo throw bankruptcy where you end up with more money somehow
if it's the latter, how?
no, please. how? i need money
Sorry digger, cis white heterosexual men only on this one
You have to have a certain amount of pre-existing wealth/power/status too. I'm a cis-white hetero man and there's no way I get the judo bankruptcy if it came to that.
THAT MARINE DUDE WAS USING AN EARPIECE TO ORDER PROUD BOYS AROUND
THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT MURDERING PEOPLE BEFORE, DURING AND AFTER THE RIOT
edit: I guess this reasonable actually
“There are breadcrumbs of organization in terms of what maybe was taking place outside the Capitol went inside with perhaps some type of communication with core groups of people ingressing into the Capitol and some coordination with individuals within the Capitol,” Sherwin said. “That is a tier one, top priority for both the U.S. Attorney’s office and our law enforcement partners to see, again, whether there was this command and control and whether there were indeed organized teams that were organized to breach the Capitol and perhaps try to accomplish some type of mission inside the Capitol.”
Posts
Yeah I know 3 Ex-Marines. They are all brothers, and all extremely violent people who are super racist and also cops!
As Vox's Jane Coaston wrote in March, followers of QAnon believe that there is an imminent event known as "'The Storm,' during which all of Trump's enemies, including Rep. Adam Schiff (D-Calif.) and others, would be arrested and executed for being murderous child-eating pedophiles." In November 2017, Coaston pointed out that QAnon had predicted that John Podesta, the chair of Hillary Clinton's 2016 presidential campaign, would be arrested and that the military would take control, followed by riots being orchestrated to prevent more senior officials from also being arrested.
I'm not defending the police as an institution, or saying that any individual cops are blameless and should be left alone just because there are a few bad apples, or that the cops I regularly interact with are fine.
I'm also not breezing past peoples' individual bad experiences with cops, they're horrible. They shouldn't happen. The police shouldn't do a variety of the things they do, including traffic stops and responding to mental health crises and being peoples' parents. Tons of bad people join the police force and tons of ok people join the police force and do bad things and they should all be held accountable, all of the time, and most should lose their ability to be police officers.
What I'm trying to say, and it's really difficult to articulate a full and complete thought in this format, is that I don't like extremely hostile blanket statements about the police because I don't trust that the people making them have any idea what they're talking about. SOMETIMES THEY DO AND THEIR POINTS ARE VALID, SEE HOW THAT'S IN ALL CAPS. But sometimes they're well meaning people who are unintentionally full of idealistic shit and I don't enjoy talking to them. Again, obviously personal experience informs everyone's opinions about everything, which is why I'm all bent out of shape.
And to be clear, I don't regularly fear for my safety, this isn't a fear motivated "oh the cops save me all the time so I love them" kinda deal, I'm fine. My job makes me responsible for a multi-story building that's routinely (although not lately) full of hundreds of people of a variety of ages and backgrounds and I need to make sure that all of those people stay safe and can do the stuff they came to the library to do. Sometimes you need some kind of public safety presence, somehow, especially when people are armed, and the police are what there is so I call them. I take it extremely seriously, I don't do it casually, and it's a difficult thing to understand if you've never done it, which again is why I'm all bent out of shape.
Why do you assume that people have not personally experienced police brutality?
Why do you need to have personally suffered at their hands before you write them off? Why can’t someone just read about others’ experiences and come to the decision that ACAB?
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
Like, feel free, that's not saying you can't
But you don't need to keep rolling the boulder up a hill, y'know?
https://www.newsweek.com/manatee-trump-dave-bautista-20000-bounty-1561929?fbclid=IwAR06vx4vCq2BLScHQIApnucMwbT0ugFo70alfSWyjLVOROZrwogSP0Iolag
Dave Bautista put a $20,000 bounty on whoever decided it would be funny to cut “Trump” into a manatee
But I would also argue that if ACAB rhetoric makes you uncomfortable then that's kind of the point? Like, the specific reason "all cops are bastards" is used as a rhetorical device is to point out the complicity in participating in an inherently broken system. And so even if you aren't directly part of the system, when you have a job that forces you to interact with and use this system, then yeah that is going to fucking suck!
I have had jobs where I've needed to work closely with the police before. It sucks shit, and there is a definite danger in developing a kind of blind spot when you are forced to hang out in the periphery of that world. You do what you can, but I would encourage you to recognize that both 1) you can be doing the best job you possibly can with the shitty tools you have, and 2) people can still rightly issue blanket condemnations of the system that you are sometimes forced to use.
This isn't how persuading people on political stances works, as you well know, and I don't think it'll be productive here.
I also think that ultimately the complex truth here is that the police in the US can, and at times do, have positive impacts on a micro-scale. The point of the large movement against the police is that on a macro-scale they do not and since policy is made on a macro-scale that is what we need to look at. Let's look at the NYPD; it's very clear that even though one might have a positive interaction with a NYPD officer, when you look at the NYPD's impact on the city at large, for the cost, they are highly inefficient and when they went on strike it's estimated that crime went down. So clearly there is a problem there! And clearly when you look at the fact that a lot of their micro-scale interactions they result in violence, death, abuse, assault etc and that institutionally they cover these things up.
So yes it is true that one can be at a public library and call the police and they can turn up and effectively defuse the situation; institutionally if they did not, and someone got shot, they'd probably cover it up. And that is a problem. A big problem. And once you look at things on a wider scale you realise; it happens a lot. So when we say "why can't you see this" we are saying, look @Peen we recognise that your experience doesn't track with the wider problem's trend, but that doesn't invalidate the wider problem, and in fact you should probably consider that actually you were perhaps closer to being involved in the wider problem than you thought.
And Tef I've had people come into the aftermath of a violent incident and try to lecture me about how we shouldn't be calling the police when people of color are involved, having no idea what happened or why the police were there, and it's given me a low tolerance. Of course I think we should base opinions on the evidence that we're provided but I think people get sucked into taking passionate stances that are essentially borrowed from other people and that causes more problems than it solves. If someone's doing activism based on experience I don't have, like "the police are bad and need to be reformed," I'm going to support them as best I can but let them do the talking, I'm not going to adopt their talking points as my own just because I believe what they're saying is true because that's inauthentic. I've strayed off topic but it's all balled together in a sticky complicated way.
there is simply no situation they could make better and i might be literally killing my friend
Not trying to change your mind, but I will say I fundamentally disagree with the bolded. If people can't passionately empathize with and advocate for experiences they haven't personally had, we will never advance the rights of any marginalized community. If I don't believe and amplify the opinions and experiences of black folks, of women, of trans folks, of queer folks, I feel like I'd be telling my friends and loved ones, "Get your own rights, solve your own problems, not my business."
@weaver, you attacked me personally (i saw what you wrote before you edited it to a dot). you don't get to center this on yourself and do a half-step above "i'm sorry you were offended."
i ain't posting any more publicly about it, but this ain't it.
i genuinely don't follow "i will support their words but won't share them myself because that's inauthentic"; what's the point of someone listening if they're against applying it?
if i'm reading things that aren't there, i apologize. i just genuinely don't understand
I think we were starting to get somewhere really interesting so feel free to reach out in PMs or discord if you wanna keep hashing it out
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
I'm not actually leaving quite yet because ain't shit else going on at work, if I get too hot I'll go though. Writing is hard. I'm not talking about empathy with and advocating for marginalized communities, I'm talking about talking for them and in some cases over them. I'm talking about amplifying voices and giving platforms instead of me pushing myself to the forefront of a given discussion. As an example, I think that everyone should have access to adaptive measures at the library so that they can access our resources, whether that's physical accommodations like screen readers or having material in non-English languages or other stuff. But when the time comes to make decisions about what exactly we should have, I'm going to go to those communities to find out what they need, not do some research on my own and then make the decision myself based on what I know, because I can't know enough to replace someone's lived experience.
Similarly, I don't mind ACAB stuff as a critique of the institution. That rhetoric doesn't make me uncomfortable at all. It's when someone listens to an interview with an officer and then says "if it was a crowd of black people he'd have just started blasting" that I have a problem with it because that's not fair at all to that dude. Maybe he sucks! He's sure got bad taste in neck tattoos. But maybe he doesn't suck, it's going after individuals that I don't like.
https://www.paypal.me/hobnailtaylor
i think part of the disconnect here is that cops being helpful in certain situations is not actually a case against All Cops Being Bastards
cops can help certain situations. They can make things safer sometimes, and there are cops who honestly try to do a good job. Not every single one of them is personally a wife-beating racist, and like, if there's a guy threatening people with a knife at the walmart or whatever even a wife-beating racist can remove him from the area.
none of that changes the fact that the police as an institution are racist, violent, and corrupt, and that the actions of individual police, including the actions of "good cops," perpetuates that racism, violence, and corruption. People don't say that All Cops Are Bastards because they personally believe that literally anytime you dial 9-1-1 the cops will show up, spit in your eye, and shoot your dog. All Cops Are Bastards because the police are an inherently bastardly institution, and merely being a member of them gives them power that they shouldn't have.
Like, even if every single cop did their job properly and never used excessive force or abused their authority, all cops would still be bastards.
http://www.audioentropy.com/
Come and take it indeed
The NRA being bankrupt is great, fuck those fuckin clowns.
https://www.paypal.me/hobnailtaylor
this is awesome
racist-ass lying scaremongering gun industry shill motherfuckers
hitting hot metal with hammers
One of my friends whos probably what I would call a Libertarian, was talking about how "Biden wants to get rid of the NRA and take our guns!" and I informed him the NRA are getting rid of themselves pretty well.
yeah this is my first thought as well
if it's the latter, how?
no, please. how? i need money
I'm not quite sure specifically because it's a breaking story but they have said this:
Nah it only works if youre rich like how a certain amount of debt turns into money somehow
https://www.paypal.me/hobnailtaylor
just a garbage organization that smoke-and-mirrors'd themselves into a widespread belief among gun people that they actually care about gun people
hitting hot metal with hammers
Sorry digger, cis white heterosexual men only on this one
Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better
bit.ly/2XQM1ke
You have to have a certain amount of pre-existing wealth/power/status too. I'm a cis-white hetero man and there's no way I get the judo bankruptcy if it came to that.
THAT MARINE DUDE WAS USING AN EARPIECE TO ORDER PROUD BOYS AROUND
THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT MURDERING PEOPLE BEFORE, DURING AND AFTER THE RIOT
edit: I guess this reasonable actually