Asylum claimants differ from other immigrants in that waiting in line in their own country would be a death sentence among those most needing asylum. You can't send them back to fill out the proper forms in triplicate, and you may not be able to get full information on who they were in their home country and what they did (since they are fleeing from a state hostile to them who may lie and say "Please return our wanted criminal")
I agree 100%. But it's gonna take time to undo this fuckery and covid complicates things. Do we lodge them under tax payer dollars in hotels? Every country has quarantine restrictions. Hell, some college student got 4 months in jail in the cayman islands for violating quarantine protocols.
Asylum claimants differ from other immigrants in that waiting in line in their own country would be a death sentence among those most needing asylum. You can't send them back to fill out the proper forms in triplicate, and you may not be able to get full information on who they were in their home country and what they did (since they are fleeing from a state hostile to them who may lie and say "Please return our wanted criminal")
I agree 100%. But it's gonna take time to undo this fuckery and covid complicates things. Do we lodge them under tax payer dollars in hotels? Every country has quarantine restrictions. Hell, some college student got 4 months in jail in the cayman islands for violating quarantine protocols.
Asylum claimants differ from other immigrants in that waiting in line in their own country would be a death sentence among those most needing asylum. You can't send them back to fill out the proper forms in triplicate, and you may not be able to get full information on who they were in their home country and what they did (since they are fleeing from a state hostile to them who may lie and say "Please return our wanted criminal")
I agree 100%. But it's gonna take time to undo this fuckery and covid complicates things. Do we lodge them under tax payer dollars in hotels? Every country has quarantine restrictions. Hell, some college student got 4 months in jail in the cayman islands for violating quarantine protocols.
Sure lets do that
I mean, if that's what we do, we do. I'm fine with that. But there's no staff or policy in place to make this happen, and it'll take time. Possibly even months. By the time we have the government set up to process them and quarantine them, we'd probably be able to just vaccinate them at the border.
I'm just saying biden deserves some slack having to fix 4 years of fuckery, and covid.
What did we do about asylum claimants before we had camps? Must have been something. 2 weeks in a hotel for a Covid quarantine seems reasonable. A lot of people coming over have relatives already here who can put them up after that, and charities are often keen on resettling refugees.
So, what you are saying, is that you are arguing on feelings and not the actual details? What EXACTLY is going to take time to fix? Details would make this go over a lot easier with people.
This seems a very disingenuous argument because I honestly doubt Mexico is providing any of that for them? Literally just being like "here's the door, figure it out yourself and show up for your court date" would be an improvement.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
It will definitely be a disappointing <all future time> for you if you don't think that programs take time to start or stop or change, yes.
You can sign an executive order or a law on Day 1* and start working on it but you can't magic that thing into existence with a pen stroke.
Like, shit, hiring people to do the thing takes time if nothing else.
*You almost certainly can't sign a law on day 1 given how long the congressional process takes.
I think you are all missing the point. As I understand it, previously the standard was that you would be allowed into the US provisionally while your asylum application was being processed. Trump instead sent people back to Mexico while their claims went through the courts. I don't see any actual reason that Biden could not on Day 1 return policy to the previous method of letting people be in the US while their asylum is judged. It requires no actual staff or anything, because the normal process still continues we just don't throw them out while it happens. The reason he gives is just a more polite version of xenophobic nonsense about refugee caravans and millions of people crossing the border and whatever.
This is 100% him breaking a campaign promise. If we need to close the border because of COVID that's a separate issue and also bullshit given our own infection rate is already out of control.
Asylum processing at the border is a process that takes time and staff. And we now have an enormous backlog of people to get through. That takes time. Not approving people, just noting the claim and getting them set up with follow up. This is what returning to the prior process looks like.
If you don't do that it *will* fuck the people coming through hard.
And at the end of that processing you can let them into the US. Or you can kick them back out into Mexico. Neither of those takes more staff or resources than the other, yes? Biden's excuse of not just doing the former is that it would trigger a run on the border and that immigrants have COVID which is xenophobic fear mongering.
There's also, as noted there, major concerns about covid. You'll need to implement something for dealing with that as well.
You put up plastic screens at border facilities and have people wear masks. Done. Maybe if we get any kind of control over the outbreak at some point we can actually start worrying about people coming into the country with it but as things stand it is a drop in the ocean.
Neither of them does, no. But you still can't do *months* (probably worse? I have no idea how many people were fucked with here but it's got to be a lot..) worth of that in days. It's not a 5 minute thing.
That's not the point. The actual processing at the border having limited throughput is understandable, sure, not to even mention the actual asylum process. That has nothing to do with the question of whether the people who do get their asylum claims started, no matter how small that number may be compared to people lining up to apply, should be allowed in to the US or sent back to Mexico. That is the specific Trump policy that Biden promised to repeal on Day 1 and has now indicated that he intends to brake his promise on. It has nothing materially to do with the staff or infrastructure available at the border, and his claims otherwise are an excuse and a smoke screen.
Explain how it doesn't have to do with people not being there to process?
I have, several times. Bob arrives at the US border and makes an asylum claim. If there is a shortage of people to receive asylum claims, that would have created a delay before he got to this point, but at this point it no longer matters because he has already gone through the process of applying. Before Trump, Bob would now be allowed into the US to wait for his case to go through the process. Under Trump he is instead sent back to Mexico. Biden promised to go back to the former. Now he's saying he won't do that until some undefined future point.
How about you explain how the rate at which the border crossings can accept asylum applications has any impact on what you do with the people who do complete an application?
Biden did not say that people who get through the line to make an application will not be let into the nation. He says that the line will not move as fast as it should because the mechanics of the application process has been gutted. "Do not think that everything will be back to normal on day one" does not mean "we will not be making the change"
It absolutely has to do with having the staff and infrastructure available. Both on the front in in getting the line to work fast enough and on the back end to have quarantine spaces available for those who go through
It will definitely be a disappointing <all future time> for you if you don't think that programs take time to start or stop or change, yes.
You can sign an executive order or a law on Day 1* and start working on it but you can't magic that thing into existence with a pen stroke.
Like, shit, hiring people to do the thing takes time if nothing else.
*You almost certainly can't sign a law on day 1 given how long the congressional process takes.
I think you are all missing the point. As I understand it, previously the standard was that you would be allowed into the US provisionally while your asylum application was being processed. Trump instead sent people back to Mexico while their claims went through the courts. I don't see any actual reason that Biden could not on Day 1 return policy to the previous method of letting people be in the US while their asylum is judged. It requires no actual staff or anything, because the normal process still continues we just don't throw them out while it happens. The reason he gives is just a more polite version of xenophobic nonsense about refugee caravans and millions of people crossing the border and whatever.
This is 100% him breaking a campaign promise. If we need to close the border because of COVID that's a separate issue and also bullshit given our own infection rate is already out of control.
Asylum processing at the border is a process that takes time and staff. And we now have an enormous backlog of people to get through. That takes time. Not approving people, just noting the claim and getting them set up with follow up. This is what returning to the prior process looks like.
If you don't do that it *will* fuck the people coming through hard.
And at the end of that processing you can let them into the US. Or you can kick them back out into Mexico. Neither of those takes more staff or resources than the other, yes? Biden's excuse of not just doing the former is that it would trigger a run on the border and that immigrants have COVID which is xenophobic fear mongering.
There's also, as noted there, major concerns about covid. You'll need to implement something for dealing with that as well.
You put up plastic screens at border facilities and have people wear masks. Done. Maybe if we get any kind of control over the outbreak at some point we can actually start worrying about people coming into the country with it but as things stand it is a drop in the ocean.
Neither of them does, no. But you still can't do *months* (probably worse? I have no idea how many people were fucked with here but it's got to be a lot..) worth of that in days. It's not a 5 minute thing.
That's not the point. The actual processing at the border having limited throughput is understandable, sure, not to even mention the actual asylum process. That has nothing to do with the question of whether the people who do get their asylum claims started, no matter how small that number may be compared to people lining up to apply, should be allowed in to the US or sent back to Mexico. That is the specific Trump policy that Biden promised to repeal on Day 1 and has now indicated that he intends to brake his promise on. It has nothing materially to do with the staff or infrastructure available at the border, and his claims otherwise are an excuse and a smoke screen.
Explain how it doesn't have to do with people not being there to process?
I have, several times. Bob arrives at the US border and makes an asylum claim. If there is a shortage of people to receive asylum claims, that would have created a delay before he got to this point, but at this point it no longer matters because he has already gone through the process of applying. Before Trump, Bob would now be allowed into the US to wait for his case to go through the process. Under Trump he is instead sent back to Mexico. Biden promised to go back to the former. Now he's saying he won't do that until some undefined future point.
How about you explain how the rate at which the border crossings can accept asylum applications has any impact on what you do with the people who do complete an application?
Biden did not say that people who get through the line to make an application will not be let into the nation. He says that the line will not move as fast as it should because the mechanics of the application process has been gutted. "Do not think that everything will be back to normal on day one" does not mean "we will not be making the change"
It absolutely has to do with having the staff and infrastructure available. Both on the front in in getting the line to work fast enough and on the back end to have quarantine spaces available for those who go through
That is not what the article says:
Sullivan told EFE that the administration would not immediately end the Migration Protection Protocols that Biden had promised to terminate on his first day in office. Under those Trump measures, asylum seekers are sent back to Mexico to wait — some in squalid tent camps — while their claims are processed in U.S. courts
They are certainly claiming they just need more time to implement the change, but as I've said those claims don't stand up to scrutiny.
Just for the sake of posterity I'll put my chips on MPP still being in place four years from now baring an actual immigration reform bill passing Congress by some miracle.
While racing light mechs, your Urbanmech comes in second place, but only because it ran out of ammo.
Asylum claimants differ from other immigrants in that waiting in line in their own country would be a death sentence among those most needing asylum. You can't send them back to fill out the proper forms in triplicate, and you may not be able to get full information on who they were in their home country and what they did (since they are fleeing from a state hostile to them who may lie and say "Please return our wanted criminal")
I agree 100%. But it's gonna take time to undo this fuckery and covid complicates things. Do we lodge them under tax payer dollars in hotels? Every country has quarantine restrictions. Hell, some college student got 4 months in jail in the cayman islands for violating quarantine protocols.
If your concern is specifically "well what about covid outbreaks" then I'll ask you if you think having them housed in cramped unsanitary conditions in literal concentration camps is more or less good for preventing outbreaks of disease than providing them with actual goddamn housing.
This seems a very disingenuous argument because I honestly doubt Mexico is providing any of that for them? Literally just being like "here's the door, figure it out yourself and show up for your court date" would be an improvement.
The latest data from TRAC shows that nearly every migrant who applied for asylum and whose case was completed in 2019 showed up for all of their court hearings. That’s even though the vast majority of asylum seekers — about four in five — were not detained at all or had been released from US Immigration and Customs Enforcement custody before their court date.
TRAC’s report doesn’t account for every migrant in immigration court: those who sought other kinds of relief from deportation or who didn’t apply for any relief at all aren’t included. The Department of Justice has also previously raised concerns about the accuracy of TRAC’s analysis, which relies on data obtained via the Freedom of Information Act, since the organization does not disclose its methodology.
A spokesperson for the DOJ declined to comment.
Data from the DOJ suggests that the rate at which migrants overall show up for their immigration court proceedings is lower than the rate TRAC cites. In 2018, the most recent year for which data is available, about 75 percent of migrants showed up for their court hearings in 2018 — similar to rates over the previous five years. The DOJ has also reported that the number of migrants and asylum seekers who fail to show up for their hearings is on the rise.
Even at a low of 75%, that's a huge number who show up.
So again, the onus is on Biden and team (or anyone who wants him to be given a break), to explain to us WHY they can't eliminate MPP day one. If it was "camps in Mexico + Covid" then say that. Say "Thanks to the Trump administration, we have a large number of people in Mexico and other countries pending review. Once we've cleared our backlog, MPP will be eliminated". THAT WOULD BE ENTIRELY REASONABLE.
Wouldn't be shocked if some get added in Senate negotiations, but so far it sounds like the Biden administration won't be making the mistake of compromising on their initial offers.
Self-righteousness is incompatible with coalition building.
Hopefully, that's a lesson they did learn and apply elsewhere. Don't compromise on your proposals, leave that to Congress because then it make sit harder for people on the left to blame you for the compromises that Congress had to make in order to get something through. That in turn makes it easier to argue that if people didn't like the compromises, they need to figure out how to get more democrats or other left leaning types into Congress.
BlackDragon480Bluster KerfuffleMaster of Windy ImportRegistered Userregular
I'm sure getting those results on January 5th put some steel in their spine on initial policy proposals and briefs for the incoming congress. Being able to tell Mitch to fuck off has to be liberating for all the Senators. Some horse trading will I'm sure need to be done to get Manchin on board with a few things over the next year, but you certainly don't have to water shit down from the jump.
No matter where you go...there you are. ~ Buckaroo Banzai
There's no talk of zeroing the fillibuster, that's still going to be a factor in most legislation, meaning finding 10+ republicans for whatever. Immigration might be one of the heavier lifts in that case. Not impossible but you need to do a hell of a lot more than winning over Manchin.
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RingoHe/Hima distinct lack of substanceRegistered Userregular
There's no talk of zeroing the fillibuster, that's still going to be a factor in most legislation, meaning finding 10+ republicans for whatever. Immigration might be one of the heavier lifts in that case. Not impossible but you need to do a hell of a lot more than winning over Manchin.
Leaving the filibuster as-is would be the dumbest fucking thing
I'll believe it when I see it. Luckily we're at minimum a few days away from seeing that stuff get proposed more publicly and such.
Right now my immediate concern is who will be acting head of DHS come Wednesday afternoon.
It's cynical, but even if the incoming administration puts the brakes on Trump era policy you can almost guarantee:
- That they'll still proceed with some super monstrous deportations
- That at least a few field offices will keep up with the gestapo bullshit under the radar for awhile and once found out will probably face zero repercussions
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Come Overwatch with meeeee
I'll believe it when I see it. Luckily we're at minimum a few days away from seeing that stuff get proposed more publicly and such.
Right now my immediate concern is who will be acting head of DHS come Wednesday afternoon.
It's cynical, but even if the incoming administration puts the brakes on Trump era policy you can almost guarantee:
- That they'll still proceed with some super monstrous deportations
- That at least a few field offices will keep up with the gestapo bullshit under the radar for awhile and once found out will probably face zero repercussions
Until Congress actually does something any Democratic administration is going to have a lot of problem reigning these people in because a lot of the time what they are doing is technically following the laws they are supposed to enforce. The way Obama tried to deal with this is through the power of prioritization. ie - concentrate your efforts on X instead of Y. But as long as they really want to do Y instead and Y is still within the scope of their duties it's a lot harder to get them to stop because technically they are still doing their jobs. And as we all know, these people really really want to do the thing Trump was letting them do.
I am not the least bit surprised to see it now that Trump is halfway out the door, but it looks like we are going to be able to look forward to a bunch of anti-immigrant stories.
I think someone predicted that the migrant caravan stories were going to appear on inauguration day...well, they were two days off because the caravans materialized once again.
I am not the least bit surprised to see it now that Trump is halfway out the door, but it looks like we are going to be able to look forward to a bunch of anti-immigrant stories.
I think someone predicted that the migrant caravan stories were going to appear on inauguration day...well, they were two days off because the caravans materialized once again.
This is probably a thing that always happened but Trump made people notice it and generated clicks and views for the hopelessly shitty news orgs so we’ll get a story about this regularly going forward /sigh
So this is totally normal thing to do as part of the immigration process. Totally normal and not at all racist or being difficult for difficulty's sake.
I am not the least bit surprised to see it now that Trump is halfway out the door, but it looks like we are going to be able to look forward to a bunch of anti-immigrant stories.
I think someone predicted that the migrant caravan stories were going to appear on inauguration day...well, they were two days off because the caravans materialized once again.
This is probably a thing that always happened but Trump made people notice it and generated clicks and views for the hopelessly shitty news orgs so we’ll get a story about this regularly going forward /sigh
Also, it shows that Trump got what he wanted. People say "but there's no Wall, so the border policy failed". Well, pictures and video of Guatemalan (and in 2019 Mexican) military turning down refugees at gunpoint is his victory:
The more anti-immigrant elements of those countries got full cover to "deal with the problem". And as long as those caravans don't get close to the US, is not the US problem. Hell, going from getting to Mexico to getting to Guatemala means that the push back is increasing.
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ShadowfireVermont, in the middle of nowhereRegistered Userregular
People say "but there's no Wall, so the border policy failed".
There's a few others (reversing the Muslin ban etc) but we won't know the exact effects until the text is published. The policy that established them in the first place was a DOJ thing IIRC, not an EO, so I expect the next Attorney General might have to be the one to do the heavy lifting there?
Biden is also introducing an immigration reform bill. No details yet just the talking points page which has been around for a little while. It is confirmed to have a pathway to citizenship at least.
I’d imagine there’s no way to just empty the camps, since it would leave tens of thousands of abused, malnourished people in the middle of the desert.
You’ll need to bring in advocates, counselors, interpreters, transportation, food, medical. Set up an entire infrastructure designed around locating the tens of thousands of stolen children and deported parents and you’ll be working with little, no, or actively hostile documentation.
Of all the innumerable shit sandwiches left behind by Trump and his Nazis, this one seems like it will be the hardest to even start fixing, and that doesn’t even factor in the things that can’t be fixed like the unnecessary surgery, the rapes, the deaths and murders, ICE, the COVID...
I’d imagine there’s no way to just empty the camps, since it would leave tens of thousands of abused, malnourished people in the middle of the desert.
You’ll need to bring in advocates, counselors, interpreters, transportation, food, medical. Set up an entire infrastructure designed around locating the tens of thousands of stolen children and deported parents and you’ll be working with little, no, or actively hostile documentation.
Of all the innumerable shit sandwiches left behind by Trump and his Nazis, this one seems like it will be the hardest to even start fixing, and that doesn’t even factor in the things that can’t be fixed like the unnecessary surgery, the rapes, the deaths and murders, ICE, the COVID...
Not all the camps are in the deserts
Some of them are literally “we took this disused shopping center in town and turned it into a detainment facility by just stuffing it full of cages”
Even then, for the actual on-the-border camps, it is still well within the capability of the US to free the victims and provide them stable, dignified housing. It’s not a question of can we do that, but a question of will we do that.
And, honestly? After what we’ve done to these people, freeing them from this hell and providing stable, dignified housing is the absolute minimum of what we can and should do as restitution and reparation
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HenroidMexican kicked from Immigration ThreadCentrism is Racism :3Registered Userregular
As far as first measures go this is good.
As far as the concentration camps go, that's gonna take some logistical work. Not just to properly process the people out, but to provide them better accommodations. I don't expect it to be done in a single day. HOWEVER I am watching closely and there better not be a single dragged-ass on making that happen. For the moment I think the 'easiest' change will be the intentional harm being done RE: medicine and food. And hopefully the whole forced hysterectomies thing stops too.
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I agree 100%. But it's gonna take time to undo this fuckery and covid complicates things. Do we lodge them under tax payer dollars in hotels? Every country has quarantine restrictions. Hell, some college student got 4 months in jail in the cayman islands for violating quarantine protocols.
Sure lets do that
I mean, if that's what we do, we do. I'm fine with that. But there's no staff or policy in place to make this happen, and it'll take time. Possibly even months. By the time we have the government set up to process them and quarantine them, we'd probably be able to just vaccinate them at the border.
I'm just saying biden deserves some slack having to fix 4 years of fuckery, and covid.
It's gonna take time to fix this, and it would take awhile even without covid to complicate things.
Biden did not say that people who get through the line to make an application will not be let into the nation. He says that the line will not move as fast as it should because the mechanics of the application process has been gutted. "Do not think that everything will be back to normal on day one" does not mean "we will not be making the change"
It absolutely has to do with having the staff and infrastructure available. Both on the front in in getting the line to work fast enough and on the back end to have quarantine spaces available for those who go through
That is not what the article says:
They are certainly claiming they just need more time to implement the change, but as I've said those claims don't stand up to scrutiny.
Just for the sake of posterity I'll put my chips on MPP still being in place four years from now baring an actual immigration reform bill passing Congress by some miracle.
I typed "how do refugees in the us pay for things" into Google and got a number of informative links, like this one from Indiana's state government website debunking some common (racist) myths about refugees, or this FAQ from Washington state's Department of Social and Health Services providing information about Refugee Cash Assistance, or this article from US News about Syrian refugee resettlement.
If your concern is specifically "well what about covid outbreaks" then I'll ask you if you think having them housed in cramped unsanitary conditions in literal concentration camps is more or less good for preventing outbreaks of disease than providing them with actual goddamn housing.
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That’s what we used to do in fact
From https://www.vox.com/2020/1/10/21059924/trump-asylum-seekers-show-up-court-hearing
Even at a low of 75%, that's a huge number who show up.
So again, the onus is on Biden and team (or anyone who wants him to be given a break), to explain to us WHY they can't eliminate MPP day one. If it was "camps in Mexico + Covid" then say that. Say "Thanks to the Trump administration, we have a large number of people in Mexico and other countries pending review. Once we've cleared our backlog, MPP will be eliminated". THAT WOULD BE ENTIRELY REASONABLE.
Wouldn't be shocked if some get added in Senate negotiations, but so far it sounds like the Biden administration won't be making the mistake of compromising on their initial offers.
battletag: Millin#1360
Nice chart to figure out how honest a news source is.
~ Buckaroo Banzai
Leaving the filibuster as-is would be the dumbest fucking thing
Right now my immediate concern is who will be acting head of DHS come Wednesday afternoon.
It's cynical, but even if the incoming administration puts the brakes on Trump era policy you can almost guarantee:
- That they'll still proceed with some super monstrous deportations
- That at least a few field offices will keep up with the gestapo bullshit under the radar for awhile and once found out will probably face zero repercussions
Come Overwatch with meeeee
Until Congress actually does something any Democratic administration is going to have a lot of problem reigning these people in because a lot of the time what they are doing is technically following the laws they are supposed to enforce. The way Obama tried to deal with this is through the power of prioritization. ie - concentrate your efforts on X instead of Y. But as long as they really want to do Y instead and Y is still within the scope of their duties it's a lot harder to get them to stop because technically they are still doing their jobs. And as we all know, these people really really want to do the thing Trump was letting them do.
I think someone predicted that the migrant caravan stories were going to appear on inauguration day...well, they were two days off because the caravans materialized once again.
https://www.npr.org/2021/01/18/958092745/migrant-caravan-thousands-move-into-guatemala-hoping-to-reach-u-s
This is probably a thing that always happened but Trump made people notice it and generated clicks and views for the hopelessly shitty news orgs so we’ll get a story about this regularly going forward /sigh
Tweeter is lawperson for the ACLU Boston chapter.
A concise statement re. the human condition.
Also, it shows that Trump got what he wanted. People say "but there's no Wall, so the border policy failed". Well, pictures and video of Guatemalan (and in 2019 Mexican) military turning down refugees at gunpoint is his victory:
The more anti-immigrant elements of those countries got full cover to "deal with the problem". And as long as those caravans don't get close to the US, is not the US problem. Hell, going from getting to Mexico to getting to Guatemala means that the push back is increasing.
Mexico still has 15 hours left to pay for it.
I heard about DACA and a path to citizenship, will that do anything about the concentration camps?
That's likely to take longer just because there's so many more logistical questions involved.
This is a great Day 1 step.
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You’ll need to bring in advocates, counselors, interpreters, transportation, food, medical. Set up an entire infrastructure designed around locating the tens of thousands of stolen children and deported parents and you’ll be working with little, no, or actively hostile documentation.
Of all the innumerable shit sandwiches left behind by Trump and his Nazis, this one seems like it will be the hardest to even start fixing, and that doesn’t even factor in the things that can’t be fixed like the unnecessary surgery, the rapes, the deaths and murders, ICE, the COVID...
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Not all the camps are in the deserts
Some of them are literally “we took this disused shopping center in town and turned it into a detainment facility by just stuffing it full of cages”
Even then, for the actual on-the-border camps, it is still well within the capability of the US to free the victims and provide them stable, dignified housing. It’s not a question of can we do that, but a question of will we do that.
And, honestly? After what we’ve done to these people, freeing them from this hell and providing stable, dignified housing is the absolute minimum of what we can and should do as restitution and reparation
As far as the concentration camps go, that's gonna take some logistical work. Not just to properly process the people out, but to provide them better accommodations. I don't expect it to be done in a single day. HOWEVER I am watching closely and there better not be a single dragged-ass on making that happen. For the moment I think the 'easiest' change will be the intentional harm being done RE: medicine and food. And hopefully the whole forced hysterectomies thing stops too.