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[WandaVision] Yakety Yak! Open Spoilers!

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Posts

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    Wanda reanimated the love of her life back from the dead and then had a family with him. No one without that power could understand what it would feel like to give that up even for a greater good. There's a gravity to supers showing restraint and restraint is what separates super from super villains.

    Butters on
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  • TofystedethTofystedeth Registered User regular
    I think the thing that gets me about the ending is Monica saying "they won't understand what you had to give up." I can understand her saying "I'd bring my mom back if I had your powers," that's totally understandable. Even if she had left it at "they won't understand," I'd consider that an improvement in the line, because of course mere mortals won't understand what happened. Wanda even apologizes to Monica directly, but cannot face the townspeople and do the same, and honestly what kind of apology could she give that they would accept?

    Feige has come out and said that yes, he wanted that feeling of fear and mistrust in the end scene and that Wanda's actions will have repercussions in future MCU shows and movies. And good! I'm happy to hear that her actions here are being carried forward as they should be with logical consequences. But that line where Monica tries to abate some of that responsibility that Wanda has, was just really disappointing. I know Monica wants to think of Wanda as a good person and a hero, that's basically her motivation throughout the entire show and the reason she can show such vulnerability and empathy towards Wanda in their confrontation, but that line felt unbearably naive.

    Honestly after that line I was expecting a line like "they do know, because they felt it, and they're still right to hate me. "

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    I continue to find "it's impossible for us mere mortals to understand what it's like for someone with powers." to be a real weird talking point.

    These are human stories written by humans for humans, so no matter what fantastical elements are added, it still sprung forth from a human's imagination and therefore is quantifiable by a human mind.

    Empathy and imagination are important tool to understanding other people and they can be applied here.

  • ButtersButters A glass of some milks Registered User regular
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    PSN: idontworkhere582 | CFN: idontworkhere | Steam: lordbutters | Amazon Wishlist
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Can't wait for the next show! (Courtesy of reddit):
    U_ICq3rU7RAUwEgRDNsIUxWPAz6xn_iH-QGnSgSVSsw.jpg

  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    Why not? That's not an alien thought at all. It's not asking you to contemplate the mind of Cthulu, just imagine the same loss we all suffer, add in the power to stop it, and tie that power to a horrible crime to make it a tough call. It's the trolley problem with personal stakes.

  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    Why not? That's not an alien thought at all. It's not asking you to contemplate the mind of Cthulu, just imagine the same loss we all suffer, add in the power to stop it, and tie that power to a horrible crime to make it a tough call. It's the trolley problem with personal stakes.

    To me it’s the difference between being able to conceptualize something vs. truly being able to experience it.

    I can picture myself having powers like Wanda, but in reality it would be one of those situations where you find out you underestimated it because until you actually have that power you can’t truly understand what it means.

  • Knuckle DraggerKnuckle Dragger Explosive Ovine Disposal Registered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    Wanda reanimated the love of her life back from the dead and then had a family with him. No one without that power could understand what it would feel like to give that up even for a greater good. There's a gravity to supers showing restraint and restraint is what separates super from super villains.

    To quote Sir Terry:

    "Any ignorant fool can fail to turn someone else into a frog. You have to be clever to refrain from doing it when you knew how easy it was."

    Let not any one pacify his conscience by the delusion that he can do no harm if he takes no part, and forms no opinion.

    - John Stuart Mill
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    Why not? That's not an alien thought at all. It's not asking you to contemplate the mind of Cthulu, just imagine the same loss we all suffer, add in the power to stop it, and tie that power to a horrible crime to make it a tough call. It's the trolley problem with personal stakes.

    To me it’s the difference between being able to conceptualize something vs. truly being able to experience it.

    I can picture myself having powers like Wanda, but in reality it would be one of those situations where you find out you underestimated it because until you actually have that power you can’t truly understand what it means.

    Nobody ever knows 100% what is like to be somebody else, but if you can't get a pretty good grasp on how this would feel, I don't think you'd be able to enjoy the show. I think it's fair to say that you never know if you'd have the willpower to give up what she gave up, but the situation isn't an unknowable puzzle. It's pretty straight forward.

  • Kipling217Kipling217 Registered User regular
    There is powers and then there is raising the dead power. The ability to resurrect people from the grave, even if its just inside the Hex, puts her in the same category as Jesus, power wise. That alone makes her pretty scary. Even Agatha was taken aback by the revelation that Wanda could in theory resurrect the dead. I know its comic books stuff where nobody really dies, but its still a pretty big power.

    The sky was full of stars, every star an exploding ship. One of ours.
  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    Marathon wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    Why not? That's not an alien thought at all. It's not asking you to contemplate the mind of Cthulu, just imagine the same loss we all suffer, add in the power to stop it, and tie that power to a horrible crime to make it a tough call. It's the trolley problem with personal stakes.

    To me it’s the difference between being able to conceptualize something vs. truly being able to experience it.

    I can picture myself having powers like Wanda, but in reality it would be one of those situations where you find out you underestimated it because until you actually have that power you can’t truly understand what it means.

    Nobody ever knows 100% what is like to be somebody else, but if you can't get a pretty good grasp on how this would feel, I don't think you'd be able to enjoy the show. I think it's fair to say that you never know if you'd have the willpower to give up what she gave up, but the situation isn't an unknowable puzzle. It's pretty straight forward.

    Well I maintain that it’s basically impossible to truly grasp how it would feel, and yet I enjoyed the show immensely.

    The original argument is that this was a story created by human minds, and so the human mind should be quantifiable by a human mind.

    Infinity is also a concept created by human minds and the concept can be understood by humans, but a human mind could not fully contemplate infinity.

    Marathon on
  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    I guess the answer is "She doesn't know how" but it did bother me, conceptually, that Wanda has the power to create Vision and her super-powered children ex nihilo while simultaneously rewriting reality across the scale of an entire town and mind-controlling every single citizen therein... but she couldn't just poof Vision and the kids back into existence after the hex fell. I get that the explanation for them vanishing at all was that their existence was tied into the overall spell but just creating them again, without the whole reality warping bit, seems like a much less difficult follow-up.

    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    I guess the answer is "She doesn't know how" but it did bother me, conceptually, that Wanda has the power to create Vision and her super-powered children ex nihilo while simultaneously rewriting reality across the scale of an entire town and mind-controlling every single citizen therein... but she couldn't just poof Vision and the kids back into existence after the hex fell. I get that the explanation for them vanishing at all was that their existence was tied into the overall spell but just creating them again, without the whole reality warping bit, seems like a much less difficult follow-up.

    The series ends with her admitting she doesn't have control of her powers and vowing to learn. She can't just bring her family back because she's still not certain how she did it, and that's not a spell you want to fuck up on.

    Luckily she found a handy-dandy guidebook from her from Agnes. I'm sure that will help!

    Undead Scottsman on
  • FireflashFireflash Montreal, QCRegistered User regular
    I guess the answer is "She doesn't know how" but it did bother me, conceptually, that Wanda has the power to create Vision and her super-powered children ex nihilo while simultaneously rewriting reality across the scale of an entire town and mind-controlling every single citizen therein... but she couldn't just poof Vision and the kids back into existence after the hex fell. I get that the explanation for them vanishing at all was that their existence was tied into the overall spell but just creating them again, without the whole reality warping bit, seems like a much less difficult follow-up.

    I don't think it's necessarily easier. Her creations could only exist within the confine of her altered reality bubble. I imagine it a bit like a holodeck on star trek. It's one thing to create characters out of nothing on the holodeck. Making that same fake character be able to go anywhere in the world/universe completely independently is a different challenge.

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  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    Why not? That's not an alien thought at all. It's not asking you to contemplate the mind of Cthulu, just imagine the same loss we all suffer, add in the power to stop it, and tie that power to a horrible crime to make it a tough call. It's the trolley problem with personal stakes.

    To me it’s the difference between being able to conceptualize something vs. truly being able to experience it.

    I can picture myself having powers like Wanda, but in reality it would be one of those situations where you find out you underestimated it because until you actually have that power you can’t truly understand what it means.

    Nobody ever knows 100% what is like to be somebody else, but if you can't get a pretty good grasp on how this would feel, I don't think you'd be able to enjoy the show. I think it's fair to say that you never know if you'd have the willpower to give up what she gave up, but the situation isn't an unknowable puzzle. It's pretty straight forward.

    Well I maintain that it’s basically impossible to truly grasp how it would feel, and yet I enjoyed the show immensely.

    The original argument is that this was a story created by human minds, and so the human mind should be quantifiable by a human mind.

    Infinity is also a concept created by human minds and the concept can be understood by humans, but a human mind could not fully contemplate infinity.

    Philosophical arguments aside, Infinity exists without or without humans minds to observe the concept.

    Wanda, however, is entirely a fictional. Every move and decision she makes is in fact made by normal-ass everyday real world human beings. Her motivations and thought processes are knowable because they ARE known; by the people who created the show.

  • kimekime Queen of Blades Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Marathon wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    Why not? That's not an alien thought at all. It's not asking you to contemplate the mind of Cthulu, just imagine the same loss we all suffer, add in the power to stop it, and tie that power to a horrible crime to make it a tough call. It's the trolley problem with personal stakes.

    To me it’s the difference between being able to conceptualize something vs. truly being able to experience it.

    I can picture myself having powers like Wanda, but in reality it would be one of those situations where you find out you underestimated it because until you actually have that power you can’t truly understand what it means.

    Nobody ever knows 100% what is like to be somebody else, but if you can't get a pretty good grasp on how this would feel, I don't think you'd be able to enjoy the show. I think it's fair to say that you never know if you'd have the willpower to give up what she gave up, but the situation isn't an unknowable puzzle. It's pretty straight forward.

    Well I maintain that it’s basically impossible to truly grasp how it would feel, and yet I enjoyed the show immensely.

    The original argument is that this was a story created by human minds, and so the human mind should be quantifiable by a human mind.

    Infinity is also a concept created by human minds and the concept can be understood by humans, but a human mind could not fully contemplate infinity.

    Philosophical arguments aside, Infinity exists without or without humans minds to observe the concept.

    Wanda, however, is entirely a fictional. Every move and decision she makes is in fact made by normal-ass everyday real world human beings. Her motivations and thought processes are knowable because they ARE known; by the people who created the show.

    You can create something you don't fully understand yourself.

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  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    Why not? That's not an alien thought at all. It's not asking you to contemplate the mind of Cthulu, just imagine the same loss we all suffer, add in the power to stop it, and tie that power to a horrible crime to make it a tough call. It's the trolley problem with personal stakes.

    To me it’s the difference between being able to conceptualize something vs. truly being able to experience it.

    I can picture myself having powers like Wanda, but in reality it would be one of those situations where you find out you underestimated it because until you actually have that power you can’t truly understand what it means.

    Really, at the end of the day you don't need to understand what you're doing to do it. You can drive a car without understanding how it works. You can build a working engine without understanding everything about the fundamental forces in play or the structure of the molecules and subatomic particles. You can pick up a stick and destroy an anthill without needing to know anything about sticks or ants.

    What we're talking about is a matter of magnitude. But the underlying discussion can be had about any human act.

  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    Marathon wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    Why not? That's not an alien thought at all. It's not asking you to contemplate the mind of Cthulu, just imagine the same loss we all suffer, add in the power to stop it, and tie that power to a horrible crime to make it a tough call. It's the trolley problem with personal stakes.

    To me it’s the difference between being able to conceptualize something vs. truly being able to experience it.

    I can picture myself having powers like Wanda, but in reality it would be one of those situations where you find out you underestimated it because until you actually have that power you can’t truly understand what it means.

    Really, at the end of the day you don't need to understand what you're doing to do it. You can drive a car without understanding how it works. You can build a working engine without understanding everything about the fundamental forces in play or the structure of the molecules and subatomic particles. You can pick up a stick and destroy an anthill without needing to know anything about sticks or ants.

    What we're talking about is a matter of magnitude. But the underlying discussion can be had about any human act.

    I disagree, the scenario isn’t analogous to any human act. Wanda is a being with potentially unlimited power, there’s no equivalent scenario to compare her actions to.

    Edit: let me be clear. I’m talking about the particular scenario where Wanda recreates Vision, also creates two children, and then let’s them essentially die to restore the town. I want to say I know I would do the right thing if I were in the same position, but it would be very difficult.

    Marathon on
  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    Why not? That's not an alien thought at all. It's not asking you to contemplate the mind of Cthulu, just imagine the same loss we all suffer, add in the power to stop it, and tie that power to a horrible crime to make it a tough call. It's the trolley problem with personal stakes.

    To me it’s the difference between being able to conceptualize something vs. truly being able to experience it.

    I can picture myself having powers like Wanda, but in reality it would be one of those situations where you find out you underestimated it because until you actually have that power you can’t truly understand what it means.

    Really, at the end of the day you don't need to understand what you're doing to do it. You can drive a car without understanding how it works. You can build a working engine without understanding everything about the fundamental forces in play or the structure of the molecules and subatomic particles. You can pick up a stick and destroy an anthill without needing to know anything about sticks or ants.

    What we're talking about is a matter of magnitude. But the underlying discussion can be had about any human act.

    We aren't discussing how she did anything, but why. You don't need to understand a car to drive it, but you need to know why you are driving it and where you are heading. The power level is irrelevant. It's an emotional understanding of the situation Wanda is in. If you could save a loved one by taking slaves, what would that look like? It isn't complex.

  • MvrckMvrck Dwarven MountainhomeRegistered User regular
    If she didn't understand how she did it, there's no guarantee she could bring back the same Vision and the same kids.

  • SniperGuySniperGuy SniperGuyGaming Registered User regular
    Not sure what people/mods have decided for this going forward, but if someone else wants to make a Winter Soldier and Falcon thread, go for it! Presumably they'll be disconnected enough that there won't be many wandavision spoilers in that thread and vice versa?

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    If it's okay I'll make a D+ Marvel thread, with open spoilers for WV and Falcon +WS?

    https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240001/mcu-tv-open-spoilers-for-wandavision-and-soon-falcon-wintersoldier

    Tossing an OP together now

    Local H Jay on
  • electricitylikesmeelectricitylikesme Registered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    Why not? That's not an alien thought at all. It's not asking you to contemplate the mind of Cthulu, just imagine the same loss we all suffer, add in the power to stop it, and tie that power to a horrible crime to make it a tough call. It's the trolley problem with personal stakes.

    To me it’s the difference between being able to conceptualize something vs. truly being able to experience it.

    I can picture myself having powers like Wanda, but in reality it would be one of those situations where you find out you underestimated it because until you actually have that power you can’t truly understand what it means.

    Really, at the end of the day you don't need to understand what you're doing to do it. You can drive a car without understanding how it works. You can build a working engine without understanding everything about the fundamental forces in play or the structure of the molecules and subatomic particles. You can pick up a stick and destroy an anthill without needing to know anything about sticks or ants.

    What we're talking about is a matter of magnitude. But the underlying discussion can be had about any human act.

    We aren't discussing how she did anything, but why. You don't need to understand a car to drive it, but you need to know why you are driving it and where you are heading. The power level is irrelevant. It's an emotional understanding of the situation Wanda is in. If you could save a loved one by taking slaves, what would that look like? It isn't complex.

    I mean I'm completely onboard with "I would do it, and take about as long as Wanda did to realize I had to stop doing it - I hope".

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    Butters wrote: »
    Wanda reanimated the love of her life back from the dead and then had a family with him. No one without that power could understand what it would feel like to give that up even for a greater good. There's a gravity to supers showing restraint and restraint is what separates super from super villains.

    To quote Sir Terry:

    "Any ignorant fool can fail to turn someone else into a frog. You have to be clever to refrain from doing it when you knew how easy it was."

    Absolutely.

    Only problem, of course, is that Wanda has left more frogs than a swamp in her wake.

  • MichaelLCMichaelLC In what furnace was thy brain? ChicagoRegistered User regular
    Marathon wrote: »
    Butters wrote: »
    Empathy and sympathy are not the same thing. I can empathize with Wanda and Monica wanting their loved ones back. I can't imagine being able to do it and then being forced to give it up.

    Why not? That's not an alien thought at all. It's not asking you to contemplate the mind of Cthulu, just imagine the same loss we all suffer, add in the power to stop it, and tie that power to a horrible crime to make it a tough call. It's the trolley problem with personal stakes.

    To me it’s the difference between being able to conceptualize something vs. truly being able to experience it.

    I can picture myself having powers like Wanda, but in reality it would be one of those situations where you find out you underestimated it because until you actually have that power you can’t truly understand what it means.

    Really, at the end of the day you don't need to understand what you're doing to do it. You can drive a car without understanding how it works. You can build a working engine without understanding everything about the fundamental forces in play or the structure of the molecules and subatomic particles. You can pick up a stick and destroy an anthill without needing to know anything about sticks or ants.

    What we're talking about is a matter of magnitude. But the underlying discussion can be had about any human act.

    We aren't discussing how she did anything, but why. You don't need to understand a car to drive it, but you need to know why you are driving it and where you are heading. The power level is irrelevant. It's an emotional understanding of the situation Wanda is in. If you could save a loved one by taking slaves, what would that look like? It isn't complex.

    I mean I'm completely onboard with "I would do it, and take about as long as Wanda did to realize I had to stop doing it - I hope".

    I would like to think I'd make the right choice but not before making a clone of myself. For.. research purposes.

  • CptHamiltonCptHamilton Registered User regular
    Seeing as Wanda didn't do it on purpose, I'm pretty sure if I abruptly found myself living in a pleasant dream life with no clear understanding of how it had come to be beyond "probably my doing" I think it'd probably take me a while to choose to try to undo it.

    PSN,Steam,Live | CptHamiltonian
  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Seriously, have you guys not experienced or seen someone go through traumatic grief? People do really shitty things that they otherwise would not do without even thinking about it precisely because they can't think about it.

  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Seriously, have you guys not experienced or seen someone go through traumatic grief? People do really shitty things that they otherwise would not do without even thinking about it precisely because they can't think about it.

    Most people drink too much, or act out sexually, maybe get into a fist fight or fuck up some property. When it rises to crimes against humanity, it's time to take off the understanding hat and put on the what the fuck are we going to do about this travesty hat.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Seriously, have you guys not experienced or seen someone go through traumatic grief? People do really shitty things that they otherwise would not do without even thinking about it precisely because they can't think about it.

    Most people drink too much, or act out sexually, maybe get into a fist fight or fuck up some property. When it rises to crimes against humanity, it's time to take off the understanding hat and put on the what the fuck are we going to do about this travesty hat.

    Unfortunately, the amount of power you have has absolutely no relationship with your emotional stability. Wanting something to be true doesn't magically make it true. And if you had the power to magically make things true then you'd fuck it up. A lot.

  • MarathonMarathon Registered User regular
    Seriously, have you guys not experienced or seen someone go through traumatic grief? People do really shitty things that they otherwise would not do without even thinking about it precisely because they can't think about it.

    Most people drink too much, or act out sexually, maybe get into a fist fight or fuck up some property. When it rises to crimes against humanity, it's time to take off the understanding hat and put on the what the fuck are we going to do about this travesty hat.

    The wrinkle here is that in Wanda’s case, what can you do?

    She’s powerful on a level where the rules only apply if she wants. With full control of her power she could travel anywhere, do pretty much anything, control people’s minds, and turn your bullets into butterflies if you try to kill her.

  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    I'd probably be working on a way to get the Vision back online...

  • MatevMatev Cero Miedo Registered User regular
    Trauma and grief suck and make people do sucky things, sure. We can empathize with a person while still condemning them for the shitty things they did while grieving in proportion to how shitty those things were.

    I don't get out of holding a town hostage for 2 weeks with a network of bombs cause I was upset my wife died. Why is this different?

    "Go down, kick ass, and set yourselves up as gods, that's our Prime Directive!"
    Hail Hydra
  • Undead ScottsmanUndead Scottsman Registered User regular
    edited March 2021
    Maybe it's just me, but finding out that I've inadvertently mind controlled an entire town would be an incredibly traumatizing event in itself. Like, how everyone is talking about he lengths one would go through to save their family is also what my mind goes to about the people in that town.

    Undead Scottsman on
  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    I'd probably be working on a way to get the Vision back online...

    Before or after the mental breakdown

  • Local H JayLocal H Jay Registered User regular
    If it's okay I'll make a D+ Marvel thread, with open spoilers for WV and Falcon +WS?

    https://forums.penny-arcade.com/discussion/240001/mcu-tv-open-spoilers-for-wandavision-and-soon-falcon-wintersoldier

    Tossing an OP together now

    Ope new thread folsk

  • Atlas in ChainsAtlas in Chains Registered User regular
    Seriously, have you guys not experienced or seen someone go through traumatic grief? People do really shitty things that they otherwise would not do without even thinking about it precisely because they can't think about it.

    Most people drink too much, or act out sexually, maybe get into a fist fight or fuck up some property. When it rises to crimes against humanity, it's time to take off the understanding hat and put on the what the fuck are we going to do about this travesty hat.

    Unfortunately, the amount of power you have has absolutely no relationship with your emotional stability. Wanting something to be true doesn't magically make it true. And if you had the power to magically make things true then you'd fuck it up. A lot.

    And I'd expect to be reviled for it, and I'd give a side eye to anybody making excuses for me when I've left a town full of victims in my wake that need your empathy more than I do.

  • Inquisitor77Inquisitor77 2 x Penny Arcade Fight Club Champion A fixed point in space and timeRegistered User regular
    Seriously, have you guys not experienced or seen someone go through traumatic grief? People do really shitty things that they otherwise would not do without even thinking about it precisely because they can't think about it.

    Most people drink too much, or act out sexually, maybe get into a fist fight or fuck up some property. When it rises to crimes against humanity, it's time to take off the understanding hat and put on the what the fuck are we going to do about this travesty hat.

    Unfortunately, the amount of power you have has absolutely no relationship with your emotional stability. Wanting something to be true doesn't magically make it true. And if you had the power to magically make things true then you'd fuck it up. A lot.

    And I'd expect to be reviled for it, and I'd give a side eye to anybody making excuses for me when I've left a town full of victims in my wake that need your empathy more than I do.

    I'm really confused as to what you want here. The show clearly didn't make Wanda out to be some kind of hero. It also didn't turn her into a supervillain that's on the run. There's a middle ground that they tried to thread, and maybe they skewed too far on one end for your tastes. But you're arguing as though they made it look like Wanda was right and she did everything right and she's not in any trouble at all, when that's very much not the case given she literally ran away and went into hiding precisely because of the shitty things she did.

    If they replaced the, "They'll never know what you gave up!" scene with "You are under arrest for kidnapping, assault, and terrorism!" and then had Wanda fly away, would that be good enough? Or is there something more you're wanting here?

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    The show not trying to equivocate on the awfulness of what Wanda did would have been enough.

  • mrpakumrpaku Registered User regular
    Seriously, have you guys not experienced or seen someone go through traumatic grief? People do really shitty things that they otherwise would not do without even thinking about it precisely because they can't think about it.

    Most people drink too much, or act out sexually, maybe get into a fist fight or fuck up some property. When it rises to crimes against humanity, it's time to take off the understanding hat and put on the what the fuck are we going to do about this travesty hat.

    Unfortunately, the amount of power you have has absolutely no relationship with your emotional stability. Wanting something to be true doesn't magically make it true. And if you had the power to magically make things true then you'd fuck it up. A lot.

    And I'd expect to be reviled for it, and I'd give a side eye to anybody making excuses for me when I've left a town full of victims in my wake that need your empathy more than I do.

    I don't think Wanda deserves a pass for anything. She did horrible, unforgivable things in the midst of her trauma. She will certainly be an antagonist of some kind moving forward (at least to start), and need some kind of redemption arc to get on the side of good again

    But I personally think a lot of your arguments come back to "well, if it was me, I'd just rationally work my way through the mental illness, immediately." And I don't know if you've ever known a person with any mental illness? But that is very much not how it works.

    It sometimes takes months, years, even decades for people to realize they have done wrong, or gaslit others (or themselves), or hurt others possibly unknowingly, or convenentily written their own reality to other's expense. A lot of them never get there, to the realization they are damaged, or the help they need. Your "they should just pull up their mental bootstraps harder, like I would" feels dismissive to what mental illness even means, or how it functions for actual people

  • FencingsaxFencingsax It is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understanding GNU Terry PratchettRegistered User regular
    I mean, my perspective is that Wanda has a very clear pattern of behavior. This was not out of character for her in any respect.

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