Trauma and grief suck and make people do sucky things, sure. We can empathize with a person while still condemning them for the shitty things they did while grieving in proportion to how shitty those things were.
I don't get out of holding a town hostage for 2 weeks with a network of bombs cause I was upset my wife died. Why is this different?
The difference is, Wanda had a mental breakdown and exploded out from there. Normal humans don't have the capacity to control a whole town like that, unless I guess they have like a bomb rigged under the whole city or something. The point is everyone is trying to use reason and rationale to explain why someone did something completely irrational and unreasonable. She lost control of her literally godlike powers during her immense mental breakdown. I keep reading people be like "I wouldn't do that" yeah... Wanda probably wouldn't have either if she had the choice... She didn't, her mind went buck and took the whole town along for the ride.
And I'm not saying that she shouldn't have like she's some moral paragon, that's not where I'm at in the debate. Regardless of her intent, it was done, and I'm saying that people are in the right to think of her as someone not to be trusted when this keeps happening, if and until she gets training to control her powers, which iI'd just as much put back to the Avengers for not helping her when she obviously, desperately needs it. It sucks, but also Wanda isn't without fault here, and she'd be the first to tell you that. (And if she didn't, then she's exactly the villain others are making her out to be)
Also, this isn't the first time she's done something awful because she didn't have control of her powers and then refuse to experience any consequence.
What? The Accords were the consequences for her actions last time. And they don't seem to be working that great several years on...
She personally refused to be bound by them in any way. She was actually fine with staying in the tower until the moment she learned it was because of her actions. Once she learned she was basically confined because she killed people, and also people didn't trust her because of the whole joining the superNazis and the omnicidal robot, she was right out.
What? The Accords were the consequences for her actions last time. And they don't seem to be working that great several years on...
She personally refused to be bound by them in any way. She was actually fine with staying in the tower until the moment she learned it was because of her actions.
I don't particularly cade about the Accords.
It's still something she faced as consequences for her "actions" which let's be clear, her doing nothing was never an option, because many more people would have died. It's a sophie's choice. She didn't kill anyone, Crossbones did, she simply tried to reduce the casualties.
Again you just kinda proved why it's silly to try to force consequences on someone like that, when the only one who can fix Wanda is herself. No amount of brute force or keeping her locked up will likely suffice. There's nothing to be gained from pointing fingers at her and wagging it likes she's a bad dog or something. It's not gonna work.
The Accords still persist on as law, so it's something that's affected everyone else in the MCU as a result of omega level supers going around unchecked. They're going about as well as you can expect with mortal humans trying to reign in supers.
Wanda's story is like a greek tragedy, she's lost just about everyone she's every loved, some of them twice now. She's so powerful nobody can really do anything. When she's not going critical, she very clearly cares about people and has saved far more lives than those she's affected. On the scale of her life, he good deeds would heavily outweigh the bad.
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
edited March 2021
Eh, whatever, we disagree on her character
Fencingsax on
0
ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
To be fair, most of the lives we've seen her save were Sokovian so they probably count for at most half of an American life in terms of a foreign policy standpoint so if you do the math like that, she maybe hasn't saved more lives? I dunno.
Seriously, have you guys not experienced or seen someone go through traumatic grief? People do really shitty things that they otherwise would not do without even thinking about it precisely because they can't think about it.
Most people drink too much, or act out sexually, maybe get into a fist fight or fuck up some property. When it rises to crimes against humanity, it's time to take off the understanding hat and put on the what the fuck are we going to do about this travesty hat.
Unfortunately, the amount of power you have has absolutely no relationship with your emotional stability. Wanting something to be true doesn't magically make it true. And if you had the power to magically make things true then you'd fuck it up. A lot.
And I'd expect to be reviled for it, and I'd give a side eye to anybody making excuses for me when I've left a town full of victims in my wake that need your empathy more than I do.
I don't think Wanda deserves a pass for anything. She did horrible, unforgivable things in the midst of her trauma. She will certainly be an antagonist of some kind moving forward (at least to start), and need some kind of redemption arc to get on the side of good again
But I personally think a lot of your arguments come back to "well, if it was me, I'd just rationally work my way through the mental illness, immediately." And I don't know if you've ever known a person with any mental illness? But that is very much not how it works.
It sometimes takes months, years, even decades for people to realize they have done wrong, or gaslit others (or themselves), or hurt others possibly unknowingly, or convenentily written their own reality to other's expense. A lot of them never get there, to the realization they are damaged, or the help they need. Your "they should just pull up their mental bootstraps harder, like I would" feels dismissive to what mental illness even means, or how it functions for actual people
i think a lot of the stigma people want forced on Wanda is similar to the stigma real life mentally ill people face. People look at you different after you have a breakdown in public, act out or cry or become incoherent and people just assume you are deranged or doing it for attention. There's not anyone around you trying to understand or seek to remedy things. They just see you as you are, a broken person, and don't know the several years of trauma that lead up to that moment. It's not an excuse, but it informs you hey this person is simply going through a lot right now and doesn't deserve to be arrested/locked up because in this moment they're acting crazy.
To be fair, most of the lives we've seen her save were Sokovian so they probably count for at most half of an American life in terms of a foreign policy standpoint so if you do the math like that, she maybe hasn't saved more lives? I dunno.
I know this is a joke post but, gross
Also like almost all the MCU heroes, it's implied they have adventures off screen between films and they are based in america so...
Why is everyone talking like Wanda got away with anything? Who, exactly, on-site in Westview, was in any position to stop her from flying away? The show immediately just ended after she left and all we got was a shot of her magicking shit up in a cabin in the woods.
Monica's speech to Wanda didn't read to me like an act of forgiveness, it was really more of an olive branch, like a therapist gives to a troubled patient, to try and reassure them that they are desiring to help, not punish. I think perhaps Monica was hoping that Wanda would come to trust her and maybe stay to help resolve the things she did. The fact that it didn't work out that way doesn't mean Wanda gets off scott-free. WandaVision is over, but the MCU is certainly not, and we already know for a fact that Wanda will be back in Dr. Strange 2, so why are we acting like everything is all said and done?
This chapter is over, the story, most assuredly, is not. I'm positive we haven't heard the last of Westview.
Seriously, have you guys not experienced or seen someone go through traumatic grief? People do really shitty things that they otherwise would not do without even thinking about it precisely because they can't think about it.
Most people drink too much, or act out sexually, maybe get into a fist fight or fuck up some property. When it rises to crimes against humanity, it's time to take off the understanding hat and put on the what the fuck are we going to do about this travesty hat.
Unfortunately, the amount of power you have has absolutely no relationship with your emotional stability. Wanting something to be true doesn't magically make it true. And if you had the power to magically make things true then you'd fuck it up. A lot.
And I'd expect to be reviled for it, and I'd give a side eye to anybody making excuses for me when I've left a town full of victims in my wake that need your empathy more than I do.
I don't think Wanda deserves a pass for anything. She did horrible, unforgivable things in the midst of her trauma. She will certainly be an antagonist of some kind moving forward (at least to start), and need some kind of redemption arc to get on the side of good again
But I personally think a lot of your arguments come back to "well, if it was me, I'd just rationally work my way through the mental illness, immediately." And I don't know if you've ever known a person with any mental illness? But that is very much not how it works.
It sometimes takes months, years, even decades for people to realize they have done wrong, or gaslit others (or themselves), or hurt others possibly unknowingly, or convenentily written their own reality to other's expense. A lot of them never get there, to the realization they are damaged, or the help they need. Your "they should just pull up their mental bootstraps harder, like I would" feels dismissive to what mental illness even means, or how it functions for actual people
i think a lot of the stigma people want forced on Wanda is similar to the stigma real life mentally ill people face. People look at you different after you have a breakdown in public, act out or cry or become incoherent and people just assume you are deranged or doing it for attention. There's not anyone around you trying to understand or seek to remedy things. They just see you as you are, a broken person, and don't know the several years of trauma that lead up to that moment. It's not an excuse, but it informs you hey this person is simply going through a lot right now and doesn't deserve to be arrested/locked up because in this moment they're acting crazy.
Having a breakdown in public is a bit different than mind raping a town. If Westview had gone on longer Wanda would have killed a lot of people, and realistically she already has, just slowly. How many people are going to nope out of life after an experience like that?
If you want a real life analogy, you want the person who's cutting themselves in public and stabbing anyone who gets close enough to reach.
0
Inquisitor772 x Penny Arcade Fight Club ChampionA fixed point in space and timeRegistered Userregular
Seriously, have you guys not experienced or seen someone go through traumatic grief? People do really shitty things that they otherwise would not do without even thinking about it precisely because they can't think about it.
Most people drink too much, or act out sexually, maybe get into a fist fight or fuck up some property. When it rises to crimes against humanity, it's time to take off the understanding hat and put on the what the fuck are we going to do about this travesty hat.
Unfortunately, the amount of power you have has absolutely no relationship with your emotional stability. Wanting something to be true doesn't magically make it true. And if you had the power to magically make things true then you'd fuck it up. A lot.
And I'd expect to be reviled for it, and I'd give a side eye to anybody making excuses for me when I've left a town full of victims in my wake that need your empathy more than I do.
I don't think Wanda deserves a pass for anything. She did horrible, unforgivable things in the midst of her trauma. She will certainly be an antagonist of some kind moving forward (at least to start), and need some kind of redemption arc to get on the side of good again
But I personally think a lot of your arguments come back to "well, if it was me, I'd just rationally work my way through the mental illness, immediately." And I don't know if you've ever known a person with any mental illness? But that is very much not how it works.
It sometimes takes months, years, even decades for people to realize they have done wrong, or gaslit others (or themselves), or hurt others possibly unknowingly, or convenentily written their own reality to other's expense. A lot of them never get there, to the realization they are damaged, or the help they need. Your "they should just pull up their mental bootstraps harder, like I would" feels dismissive to what mental illness even means, or how it functions for actual people
i think a lot of the stigma people want forced on Wanda is similar to the stigma real life mentally ill people face. People look at you different after you have a breakdown in public, act out or cry or become incoherent and people just assume you are deranged or doing it for attention. There's not anyone around you trying to understand or seek to remedy things. They just see you as you are, a broken person, and don't know the several years of trauma that lead up to that moment. It's not an excuse, but it informs you hey this person is simply going through a lot right now and doesn't deserve to be arrested/locked up because in this moment they're acting crazy.
Having a breakdown in public is a bit different than mind raping a town. If Westview had gone on longer Wanda would have killed a lot of people, and realistically she already has, just slowly. How many people are going to nope out of life after an experience like that?
If you want a real life analogy, you want the person who's cutting themselves in public and stabbing anyone who gets close enough to reach.
That's why is dumb to try to compare this to real life, because it doesn't hold up to mundane human scrutiny. We the audience have all the context we need to draw our own conclusions. The people in the town, the government agencies, most of them don't know the full story or likely care. Just like when you call the cops on someone in a mental breakdown, they sometimes don't care to deescalate and just shoot the person having a breakdown. Understanding a situation and de-escalating it is different than just shooting at it.
+2
TexiKenDammit!That fish really got me!Registered Userregular
I didn't watch Wandavision but I've seen all the hubub, and it would be good of Marvel to actually make her the big villain for whatever phase this is. Maybe this time unlike the comics she'll learn her fantasies can't ever be quenched and that her actions have consequences. Wanda is a frickin' frick.
The bomb detonation in Lagos was Cap’s fault, not Wandas. She acted to save him after Cap fucked go and got distracted. She’s not even in the room when they discuss the accords, she was already in house arrest if I remember Civil War correctly.
Why is everyone talking like Wanda got away with anything? Who, exactly, on-site in Westview, was in any position to stop her from flying away? The show immediately just ended after she left and all we got was a shot of her magicking shit up in a cabin in the woods.
Monica's speech to Wanda didn't read to me like an act of forgiveness, it was really more of an olive branch, like a therapist gives to a troubled patient, to try and reassure them that they are desiring to help, not punish. I think perhaps Monica was hoping that Wanda would come to trust her and maybe stay to help resolve the things she did. The fact that it didn't work out that way doesn't mean Wanda gets off scott-free. WandaVision is over, but the MCU is certainly not, and we already know for a fact that Wanda will be back in Dr. Strange 2, so why are we acting like everything is all said and done?
This chapter is over, the story, most assuredly, is not. I'm positive we haven't heard the last of Westview.
My read of the scene was that Monica smiled like a fool and excused the entire ordeal. Then she got her reward for a job well done in the credits scene. Wanda at least had a good understanding that the people had a right to hate her, even if she wasn't willing to stick around and own it.
Why is everyone talking like Wanda got away with anything? Who, exactly, on-site in Westview, was in any position to stop her from flying away? The show immediately just ended after she left and all we got was a shot of her magicking shit up in a cabin in the woods.
Monica's speech to Wanda didn't read to me like an act of forgiveness, it was really more of an olive branch, like a therapist gives to a troubled patient, to try and reassure them that they are desiring to help, not punish. I think perhaps Monica was hoping that Wanda would come to trust her and maybe stay to help resolve the things she did. The fact that it didn't work out that way doesn't mean Wanda gets off scott-free. WandaVision is over, but the MCU is certainly not, and we already know for a fact that Wanda will be back in Dr. Strange 2, so why are we acting like everything is all said and done?
This chapter is over, the story, most assuredly, is not. I'm positive we haven't heard the last of Westview.
My read of the scene was that Monica smiled like a fool and excused the entire ordeal. Then she got her reward for a job well done in the credits scene. Wanda at least had a good understanding that the people had a right to hate her, even if she wasn't willing to stick around and own it.
She literally experienced Wanda's trauma when she was under her control. Monica has first hand experience on what Wanda was going through. She actually carries empathy for Wanda's situation, wants her to heal and get better, and isn't gonna say something that could potentially set her off again. I feel like we watched different shows man...
Like she literally just got done having a mental breakdown and is coming back to her senses, and you want the first words everyone says to her is to shame her and make her feel more horrible? When grief is what caused the situation to begin with?
0
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
To me, it's less mental illness and more she continues the cycle of abuse she was a victim of, and whether she does it intentionally or not, the abuse should stop.
2 things that struck me as odd that Wanda did at the end:
- put her kids to bed and left them, knowing they would die, rather than being with them at the end. Kind of weird given how she was presented feeling about them. Made me feel like they were pets rather than kids.
- removing the bubble over the town doesn't necessarily mean removing it completely. Why not shrink it to cover just the house (that you legally own btw)? Then you can work on how to keep your family alive without it. Make it impenetrable, or be really explicit that anyone coming in gets messed up. That's actually what I assumed she would do at first. Again it kind of undercuts that she views her family as real. Once she realises she made them, they seem to be disposable.
I'd actually be kind of shocked if one of the townsfolk didn't come looking for Wanda in some fashion eventually along the MCU timeline, seeking revenge for what she's dome
I'd also expect it to be paired with another person who was in Westview: maybe lives a pleasant life now, does therapeutic counseling for people in grief. You could juxtapose their stories with "what it means to internalize the pain and live in it" vs. "what it means to move through the pain and past it", and weave in their stories with Wanda's redemption arc
This would obviously involve releasing Agatha from her mind-prison to tag along as the unwilling mentor, who could really stick it to Wanda in personal fashion as to all the awful things she's done
0
ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
2 things that struck me as odd that Wanda did at the end:
- put her kids to bed and left them, knowing they would die, rather than being with them at the end. Kind of weird given how she was presented feeling about them. Made me feel like they were pets rather than kids.
- removing the bubble over the town doesn't necessarily mean removing it completely. Why not shrink it to cover just the house (that you legally own btw)? Then you can work on how to keep your family alive without it. Make it impenetrable, or be really explicit that anyone coming in gets messed up. That's actually what I assumed she would do at first. Again it kind of undercuts that she views her family as real. Once she realises she made them, they seem to be disposable.
I dunno man, she's probably more concerned for the mental well being of her kids at that point and "mommy, why are you staying when you normally leave after tucking us in is something about to happen" probably sucks. Putting them to bed and letting them "die" in their sleep seems pretty merciful to all involved.
The bomb detonation in Lagos was Cap’s fault, not Wandas. She acted to save him after Cap fucked go and got distracted. She’s not even in the room when they discuss the accords, she was already in house arrest if I remember Civil War correctly.
She was in the room with the highlight reel that got her upset enough for Steve to intervene and shut it off.
Really, my sticking point is when Wanda goes "No, but you're all happy. You're at peace."
Which tells me if Agatha had broken them free and they either had no memory of being controlled, or at weren't suffering Wanda's grief, she would not have been opposed to keeping them controlled. That she would have been okay with only letting kids out of their rooms a few times a year.
That's a hard pill for me to swallow as a viewer. But again, I blame the writing, because I don't think they wanted Wanda to be come across as a villain, instead of someone who was put into a tragic circumstance out of her control.
The bomb detonation in Lagos was Cap’s fault, not Wandas. She acted to save him after Cap fucked go and got distracted. She’s not even in the room when they discuss the accords, she was already in house arrest if I remember Civil War correctly.
She was in the room with the highlight reel that got her upset enough for Steve to intervene and shut it off.
That’s true, I had forgotten that. She doesn’t voice her opinion on the accords though. That discussion is between Cap and Tony. So I’m not sure where the contention she refused to be bound by them in any way is coming from.
I'm doubting that we'll get an update a few shows/movies down the road where it turns out that hundreds of Westview people committed suicide after their experience.
The show itself comments on this. "It's not that kind of show."
Remember when the fatality numbers came up in Civil War and people were like 'uh, those seem an order of magnitude or two too low'.
I imagine that it will be held against Wanda (and rightfully so) and as a general example of the dangers of superpowered individuals on the planet and in society, but I don't think the MCU is remotely dark enough to have 'and half of them offed themselves within the year'.
More likely that it'll be left nebulous, as awful or not as the stories they want to tell require it to have been, with lasting effects (or not) to match.
First they came for the Muslims, and we said NOT TODAY, MOTHERFUCKER!
+6
ChaosHatHop, hop, hop, HA!Trick of the lightRegistered Userregular
Really, my sticking point is when Wanda goes "No, but you're all happy. You're at peace."
Which tells me if Agatha had broken them free and they either had no memory of being controlled, or at weren't suffering Wanda's grief, she would not have been opposed to keeping them controlled. That she would have been okay with only letting kids out of their rooms a few times a year.
That's a hard pill for me to swallow as a viewer. But again, I blame the writing, because I don't think they wanted Wanda to be come across as a villain, instead of someone who was put into a tragic circumstance out of her control.
I mean I don't know how much conscious control Wanda has over it. I doubt she's maliciously keeping the kids in her room or something. Maybe she thinks everyone is happy and the system is sufficiently on autopilot. I don't think she realizes that there are large swaths of people being held in a holding pattern like we saw on Halloween.
I don't think she'd be intentionally cruel like that.
Where did I say shame her? How about "you need some help. Come with me and we'll find somebody to talk to." Instead, she gestured towards the crowd that was minutes before begging to die or never have a husband come home and said they'll never understand. She needs help, not somebody making excuses for her.
+5
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The bomb detonation in Lagos was Cap’s fault, not Wandas. She acted to save him after Cap fucked go and got distracted. She’s not even in the room when they discuss the accords, she was already in house arrest if I remember Civil War correctly.
She was in the room with the highlight reel that got her upset enough for Steve to intervene and shut it off.
That’s true, I had forgotten that. She doesn’t voice her opinion on the accords though. That discussion is between Cap and Tony. So I’m not sure where the contention she refused to be bound by them in any way is coming from.
...when she leaves the Avengers complex, her position is pretty clear.
Really, my sticking point is when Wanda goes "No, but you're all happy. You're at peace."
Which tells me if Agatha had broken them free and they either had no memory of being controlled, or at weren't suffering Wanda's grief, she would not have been opposed to keeping them controlled. That she would have been okay with only letting kids out of their rooms a few times a year.
That's a hard pill for me to swallow as a viewer. But again, I blame the writing, because I don't think they wanted Wanda to be come across as a villain, instead of someone who was put into a tragic circumstance out of her control.
I mean I don't know how much conscious control Wanda has over it. I doubt she's maliciously keeping the kids in her room or something. Maybe she thinks everyone is happy and the system is sufficiently on autopilot. I don't think she realizes that there are large swaths of people being held in a holding pattern like we saw on Halloween.
I don't think she'd be intentionally cruel like that.
The thing is we don't see her experiment with it at all. Like even one scene of her going "Am I the one doing this?" *tries to shut off the hex and nothing happens* "Huh, guess not"
I don't feel like that would have been too much of an ask. They even had an opportunity to do so when Vision questioned her on it and she was didismissive of it. They could have had her stand up, shoot out some red wiggly-woos and nothing happens and go "See!"
Where did I say shame her? How about "you need some help. Come with me and we'll find somebody to talk to." Instead, she gestured towards the crowd that was minutes before begging to die or never have a husband come home and said they'll never understand. She needs help, not somebody making excuses for her.
Who is making excuses for her? Monica is doing what you should, not trying to make a fragile person slip back into some kind of episode. Who can Monica even take her to for help? Sword, the guys who just tried to shoot her kids?
You called her a fool for smiling at Wanda, when she's one of the only people the whole series actually trying to understand Wanda and where she's coming from. Your more worried about her facing consequences than getting better. The people of the town said those things because they were experiencing Wanda's grief.
Acknowledging the trouble Wanda had leading up to the Hex forming is not an excuse. Acknowledging Wanda is going through an extremely difficult time is not an excuse. It's context that leads us a better understanding of what's happening. People keep saying she needs help, but the government agencies have only tried to suppress her, never once tried to understand or help her. Sword whips out her dead husband's body in an attempt to drive her off the rails. Everyone is so focused on Wanda and her culpability, while ignoring all the things going on around it that lead to this happening.
The bomb detonation in Lagos was Cap’s fault, not Wandas. She acted to save him after Cap fucked go and got distracted. She’s not even in the room when they discuss the accords, she was already in house arrest if I remember Civil War correctly.
She was in the room with the highlight reel that got her upset enough for Steve to intervene and shut it off.
That’s true, I had forgotten that. She doesn’t voice her opinion on the accords though. That discussion is between Cap and Tony. So I’m not sure where the contention she refused to be bound by them in any way is coming from.
...when she leaves the Avengers complex, her position is pretty clear.
The complex where she was unknowingly being held prisoner at.
All you can get from that scene is that she finds out Tony decided what was best for her without discussing it with her, and that when Clint said that Cap needs her help she agreed to go. There’s nothing that says she refuses to be bound at all by the accords.
Where did I say shame her? How about "you need some help. Come with me and we'll find somebody to talk to." Instead, she gestured towards the crowd that was minutes before begging to die or never have a husband come home and said they'll never understand. She needs help, not somebody making excuses for her.
Who helps this particular woman, in the world of the MCU? Do you bring in Dr. Strange for PTSD treatment sessions? Find a cosmic Watcher somewhere in space to listen to her and walk her through regression therapy? Maybe find a vanilla earthbound, human, Dr. Melfi from the Sopranos-type, who definitely won't be secretly working for Hydra or Sword or something, or have a personal temptation to rewrite reality their own way even *if* they're decent?
The only people who care to listen, or have offered to help her, are all pretty much dead by now. That's her experience. She is one person who could have therapy proscribed to her, sigh longingly, and say "but no one would understand", and be able to mean it pretty legitimately! Which isn't to say anyone is giving "excuses" for bad behavior (again). Yes, the MCU is woefully lacking in quality mental health treatment for these individuals. They should probably get on that- I would be first in line for that movie!
+1
FencingsaxIt is difficult to get a man to understand, when his salary depends upon his not understandingGNU Terry PratchettRegistered Userregular
The bomb detonation in Lagos was Cap’s fault, not Wandas. She acted to save him after Cap fucked go and got distracted. She’s not even in the room when they discuss the accords, she was already in house arrest if I remember Civil War correctly.
She was in the room with the highlight reel that got her upset enough for Steve to intervene and shut it off.
That’s true, I had forgotten that. She doesn’t voice her opinion on the accords though. That discussion is between Cap and Tony. So I’m not sure where the contention she refused to be bound by them in any way is coming from.
...when she leaves the Avengers complex, her position is pretty clear.
The complex where she was unknowingly being held prisoner at.
All you can get from that scene is that she finds out Tony decided what was best for her without discussing it with her, and that when Clint said that Cap needs her help she agreed to go. There’s nothing that says she refuses to be bound at all by the accords.
I didn't say bound by the accords. I said bound by the consequence of her actions.
The bomb detonation in Lagos was Cap’s fault, not Wandas. She acted to save him after Cap fucked go and got distracted. She’s not even in the room when they discuss the accords, she was already in house arrest if I remember Civil War correctly.
She was in the room with the highlight reel that got her upset enough for Steve to intervene and shut it off.
That’s true, I had forgotten that. She doesn’t voice her opinion on the accords though. That discussion is between Cap and Tony. So I’m not sure where the contention she refused to be bound by them in any way is coming from.
...when she leaves the Avengers complex, her position is pretty clear.
The complex where she was unknowingly being held prisoner at.
All you can get from that scene is that she finds out Tony decided what was best for her without discussing it with her, and that when Clint said that Cap needs her help she agreed to go. There’s nothing that says she refuses to be bound at all by the accords.
I didn't say bound by the accords. I said bound by the consequence of her actions.
Those are not the same thing.
Then my bad, the way you wrote it comes across as if you felt she wasn’t bound by the accords.
I disagree though that she doesn’t feel bound by the consequences. She’s shows regret when she talks with Cap after and then later finds out she’s being held prisoner without anyone discussing it with her and she’s the only one held to any sort of consequences from the mishap in Lagos when she’s no more responsible for the deaths than Nat or Falcon.
Where did I say shame her? How about "you need some help. Come with me and we'll find somebody to talk to." Instead, she gestured towards the crowd that was minutes before begging to die or never have a husband come home and said they'll never understand. She needs help, not somebody making excuses for her.
Who helps this particular woman, in the world of the MCU? Do you bring in Dr. Strange for PTSD treatment sessions? Find a cosmic Watcher somewhere in space to listen to her and walk her through regression therapy? Maybe find a vanilla earthbound, human, Dr. Melfi from the Sopranos-type, who definitely won't be secretly working for Hydra or Sword or something, or have a personal temptation to rewrite reality their own way even *if* they're decent?
The only people who care to listen, or have offered to help her, are all pretty much dead by now. That's her experience. She is one person who could have therapy proscribed to her, sigh longingly, and say "but no one would understand", and be able to mean it pretty legitimately! Which isn't to say anyone is giving "excuses" for bad behavior (again). Yes, the MCU is woefully lacking in quality mental health treatment for these individuals. They should probably get on that- I would be first in line for that movie!
Your take on therapists is just not accurate. They don't need to be just like you to help you. And it's ridiculous to just wave them all off as corrupt and agents of Hydra, just come on. The alternative is the patient self isolates (check) tries to medicate themselves (evil book, check) and at best pushes the problem along a couple years, at worst blows up again.
I'm familiar with therapy, I've been doing it for years, I'm a proponent. EVERYBODY thinks their reason for not going is totally unique and it's just not for them. Dressing it up in comic book words doesn't make it any less silly. Wanda alone is the worst thing possible for the entire Earth.
Idk, there have been times when talking to my own doctors where I wish I could shut them up (obviously because they were dropping truth on me). Wanda needs therapy but I doubt it's safe for a human therapist to do it without putting themselves in harm's way. Again trying to apply human solutions to godlike problems won't help. One of the only people who could help is Agatha, and she just tried to suck Wanda dry and leave her for dead. The book is absolutely a bad idea and it's set-up for what's to come, but yeah I don't see how anyone in Westview or around her at the end of there series could feasibly helped her, and stopping her from leaving would probably only make things worse.
Your take on therapists is just not accurate. They don't need to be just like you to help you.
Didn't even attempt to argue this point, and worked alongside therapists in a clinical setting for years, as well as going to three myself if we're doing that bit. But more special cases call for more unique specialities as a therapist, and you've yet to show me a governing body/individual/set of circumstances in the MCU unvierse that could be trusted to properly facilitate that type of role with Wanda's best interests in mind. Unless you don't have her best interests in mind, which is a different discussion entirely
And it's ridiculous to just wave them all off as corrupt and agents of Hydra, just come on
No one did this to therapist's, and "just come on" with your large strawmen
The alternative is the patient self isolates (check) tries to medicate themselves (evil book, check) and at best pushes the problem along a couple years, at worst blows up again.
Yes! This is all very bad! I 100% believe it will lead to horrible repercussions for everyone in the Marvel Universe! What was your in universe alternative again?
Wanda alone is the worst thing possible for the entire Earth.
Potentially! That's why I hope the MCU goes the SPEECH option when it comes to her eventual big boss battle, and and not the "you're a bad person, and you should feel bad" FIGHT GOD option!
Idk, there have been times when talking to my own doctors where I wish I could shut them up (obviously because they were dropping truth on me). Wanda needs therapy but I doubt it's safe for a human therapist to do it without putting themselves in harm's way. Again trying to apply human solutions to godlike problems won't help. One of the only people who could help is Agatha, and she just tried to suck Wanda dry and leave her for dead. The book is absolutely a bad idea and it's set-up for what's to come, but yeah I don't see how anyone in Westview or around her at the end of there series could feasibly helped her, and stopping her from leaving would probably only make things worse.
My first therapist was a little old man that shattered his kneecap taking a tumble. I was as much a danger to him as Wanda would be. Wanda is not a god and treating her as such is bad for her. You are limiting options that we know work for her very human brain and leaving nothing except violence and isolation.
Posts
The Falcon and the Winter Soldier.
Who is the Winter Soldier?
James Buchanan Barnes.
Bucky Barnes.
Bucky Barnes.
Buck.
What's a buck?
A deer!
What do deer have?
Deer have horns!
HORNS!
Bucky is Mephisto!
The Winter Soldier is Mephisto!
The Falcon and Mephisto launching on Disney plus on March 19th
Also, this isn't the first time she's done something awful because she didn't have control of her powers and then refuse to experience any consequence.
Edit: Actually make that a statement rather than a question.
More edit: She was named out loud as the goddess of death, so she’d be a good fit for using Wanda via faked or the actual voices of the kids.
She personally refused to be bound by them in any way. She was actually fine with staying in the tower until the moment she learned it was because of her actions. Once she learned she was basically confined because she killed people, and also people didn't trust her because of the whole joining the superNazis and the omnicidal robot, she was right out.
I don't particularly care about the Accords.
It's still something she faced as consequences for her "actions" which let's be clear, her doing nothing was never an option, because many more people would have died. It's a sophie's choice. She didn't kill anyone, Crossbones did, she simply tried to reduce the casualties.
Again you just kinda proved why it's silly to try to force consequences on someone like that, when the only one who can fix Wanda is herself. No amount of brute force or keeping her locked up will likely suffice. There's nothing to be gained from pointing fingers at her and wagging it likes she's a bad dog or something. It's not gonna work.
The Accords still persist on as law, so it's something that's affected everyone else in the MCU as a result of omega level supers going around unchecked. They're going about as well as you can expect with mortal humans trying to reign in supers.
Wanda's story is like a greek tragedy, she's lost just about everyone she's every loved, some of them twice now. She's so powerful nobody can really do anything. When she's not going critical, she very clearly cares about people and has saved far more lives than those she's affected. On the scale of her life, he good deeds would heavily outweigh the bad.
i think a lot of the stigma people want forced on Wanda is similar to the stigma real life mentally ill people face. People look at you different after you have a breakdown in public, act out or cry or become incoherent and people just assume you are deranged or doing it for attention. There's not anyone around you trying to understand or seek to remedy things. They just see you as you are, a broken person, and don't know the several years of trauma that lead up to that moment. It's not an excuse, but it informs you hey this person is simply going through a lot right now and doesn't deserve to be arrested/locked up because in this moment they're acting crazy.
I know this is a joke post but, gross
Also like almost all the MCU heroes, it's implied they have adventures off screen between films and they are based in america so...
Monica's speech to Wanda didn't read to me like an act of forgiveness, it was really more of an olive branch, like a therapist gives to a troubled patient, to try and reassure them that they are desiring to help, not punish. I think perhaps Monica was hoping that Wanda would come to trust her and maybe stay to help resolve the things she did. The fact that it didn't work out that way doesn't mean Wanda gets off scott-free. WandaVision is over, but the MCU is certainly not, and we already know for a fact that Wanda will be back in Dr. Strange 2, so why are we acting like everything is all said and done?
This chapter is over, the story, most assuredly, is not. I'm positive we haven't heard the last of Westview.
Having a breakdown in public is a bit different than mind raping a town. If Westview had gone on longer Wanda would have killed a lot of people, and realistically she already has, just slowly. How many people are going to nope out of life after an experience like that?
If you want a real life analogy, you want the person who's cutting themselves in public and stabbing anyone who gets close enough to reach.
It's also using the wrong poster for The Falcon and the Winter Soldier. This is the official one:
That's why is dumb to try to compare this to real life, because it doesn't hold up to mundane human scrutiny. We the audience have all the context we need to draw our own conclusions. The people in the town, the government agencies, most of them don't know the full story or likely care. Just like when you call the cops on someone in a mental breakdown, they sometimes don't care to deescalate and just shoot the person having a breakdown. Understanding a situation and de-escalating it is different than just shooting at it.
My read of the scene was that Monica smiled like a fool and excused the entire ordeal. Then she got her reward for a job well done in the credits scene. Wanda at least had a good understanding that the people had a right to hate her, even if she wasn't willing to stick around and own it.
She literally experienced Wanda's trauma when she was under her control. Monica has first hand experience on what Wanda was going through. She actually carries empathy for Wanda's situation, wants her to heal and get better, and isn't gonna say something that could potentially set her off again. I feel like we watched different shows man...
- put her kids to bed and left them, knowing they would die, rather than being with them at the end. Kind of weird given how she was presented feeling about them. Made me feel like they were pets rather than kids.
- removing the bubble over the town doesn't necessarily mean removing it completely. Why not shrink it to cover just the house (that you legally own btw)? Then you can work on how to keep your family alive without it. Make it impenetrable, or be really explicit that anyone coming in gets messed up. That's actually what I assumed she would do at first. Again it kind of undercuts that she views her family as real. Once she realises she made them, they seem to be disposable.
I'd also expect it to be paired with another person who was in Westview: maybe lives a pleasant life now, does therapeutic counseling for people in grief. You could juxtapose their stories with "what it means to internalize the pain and live in it" vs. "what it means to move through the pain and past it", and weave in their stories with Wanda's redemption arc
This would obviously involve releasing Agatha from her mind-prison to tag along as the unwilling mentor, who could really stick it to Wanda in personal fashion as to all the awful things she's done
I dunno man, she's probably more concerned for the mental well being of her kids at that point and "mommy, why are you staying when you normally leave after tucking us in is something about to happen" probably sucks. Putting them to bed and letting them "die" in their sleep seems pretty merciful to all involved.
She was in the room with the highlight reel that got her upset enough for Steve to intervene and shut it off.
Which tells me if Agatha had broken them free and they either had no memory of being controlled, or at weren't suffering Wanda's grief, she would not have been opposed to keeping them controlled. That she would have been okay with only letting kids out of their rooms a few times a year.
That's a hard pill for me to swallow as a viewer. But again, I blame the writing, because I don't think they wanted Wanda to be come across as a villain, instead of someone who was put into a tragic circumstance out of her control.
That’s true, I had forgotten that. She doesn’t voice her opinion on the accords though. That discussion is between Cap and Tony. So I’m not sure where the contention she refused to be bound by them in any way is coming from.
The show itself comments on this. "It's not that kind of show."
Remember when the fatality numbers came up in Civil War and people were like 'uh, those seem an order of magnitude or two too low'.
I imagine that it will be held against Wanda (and rightfully so) and as a general example of the dangers of superpowered individuals on the planet and in society, but I don't think the MCU is remotely dark enough to have 'and half of them offed themselves within the year'.
More likely that it'll be left nebulous, as awful or not as the stories they want to tell require it to have been, with lasting effects (or not) to match.
I mean I don't know how much conscious control Wanda has over it. I doubt she's maliciously keeping the kids in her room or something. Maybe she thinks everyone is happy and the system is sufficiently on autopilot. I don't think she realizes that there are large swaths of people being held in a holding pattern like we saw on Halloween.
I don't think she'd be intentionally cruel like that.
...when she leaves the Avengers complex, her position is pretty clear.
The thing is we don't see her experiment with it at all. Like even one scene of her going "Am I the one doing this?" *tries to shut off the hex and nothing happens* "Huh, guess not"
I don't feel like that would have been too much of an ask. They even had an opportunity to do so when Vision questioned her on it and she was didismissive of it. They could have had her stand up, shoot out some red wiggly-woos and nothing happens and go "See!"
Who is making excuses for her? Monica is doing what you should, not trying to make a fragile person slip back into some kind of episode. Who can Monica even take her to for help? Sword, the guys who just tried to shoot her kids?
You called her a fool for smiling at Wanda, when she's one of the only people the whole series actually trying to understand Wanda and where she's coming from. Your more worried about her facing consequences than getting better. The people of the town said those things because they were experiencing Wanda's grief.
Acknowledging the trouble Wanda had leading up to the Hex forming is not an excuse. Acknowledging Wanda is going through an extremely difficult time is not an excuse. It's context that leads us a better understanding of what's happening. People keep saying she needs help, but the government agencies have only tried to suppress her, never once tried to understand or help her. Sword whips out her dead husband's body in an attempt to drive her off the rails. Everyone is so focused on Wanda and her culpability, while ignoring all the things going on around it that lead to this happening.
The complex where she was unknowingly being held prisoner at.
All you can get from that scene is that she finds out Tony decided what was best for her without discussing it with her, and that when Clint said that Cap needs her help she agreed to go. There’s nothing that says she refuses to be bound at all by the accords.
Who helps this particular woman, in the world of the MCU? Do you bring in Dr. Strange for PTSD treatment sessions? Find a cosmic Watcher somewhere in space to listen to her and walk her through regression therapy? Maybe find a vanilla earthbound, human, Dr. Melfi from the Sopranos-type, who definitely won't be secretly working for Hydra or Sword or something, or have a personal temptation to rewrite reality their own way even *if* they're decent?
The only people who care to listen, or have offered to help her, are all pretty much dead by now. That's her experience. She is one person who could have therapy proscribed to her, sigh longingly, and say "but no one would understand", and be able to mean it pretty legitimately! Which isn't to say anyone is giving "excuses" for bad behavior (again). Yes, the MCU is woefully lacking in quality mental health treatment for these individuals. They should probably get on that- I would be first in line for that movie!
I didn't say bound by the accords. I said bound by the consequence of her actions.
Those are not the same thing.
Then my bad, the way you wrote it comes across as if you felt she wasn’t bound by the accords.
I disagree though that she doesn’t feel bound by the consequences. She’s shows regret when she talks with Cap after and then later finds out she’s being held prisoner without anyone discussing it with her and she’s the only one held to any sort of consequences from the mishap in Lagos when she’s no more responsible for the deaths than Nat or Falcon.
Your take on therapists is just not accurate. They don't need to be just like you to help you. And it's ridiculous to just wave them all off as corrupt and agents of Hydra, just come on. The alternative is the patient self isolates (check) tries to medicate themselves (evil book, check) and at best pushes the problem along a couple years, at worst blows up again.
I'm familiar with therapy, I've been doing it for years, I'm a proponent. EVERYBODY thinks their reason for not going is totally unique and it's just not for them. Dressing it up in comic book words doesn't make it any less silly. Wanda alone is the worst thing possible for the entire Earth.
Didn't even attempt to argue this point, and worked alongside therapists in a clinical setting for years, as well as going to three myself if we're doing that bit. But more special cases call for more unique specialities as a therapist, and you've yet to show me a governing body/individual/set of circumstances in the MCU unvierse that could be trusted to properly facilitate that type of role with Wanda's best interests in mind. Unless you don't have her best interests in mind, which is a different discussion entirely
No one did this to therapist's, and "just come on" with your large strawmen
Yes! This is all very bad! I 100% believe it will lead to horrible repercussions for everyone in the Marvel Universe! What was your in universe alternative again?
Potentially! That's why I hope the MCU goes the SPEECH option when it comes to her eventual big boss battle, and and not the "you're a bad person, and you should feel bad" FIGHT GOD option!
My first therapist was a little old man that shattered his kneecap taking a tumble. I was as much a danger to him as Wanda would be. Wanda is not a god and treating her as such is bad for her. You are limiting options that we know work for her very human brain and leaving nothing except violence and isolation.